Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

BPD women are attractive because they make you feel so wonderful at first.  After all, no one else ever understood them.  Everyone else abused them... .  no one else appreciated them or took good care of them like you do.  And don't you think that since BPD women tend to have terrible self-esteem problems and are fairly self-absorbed, they have the time and will spend the time to look as fabulous as possible?  They want attention and praise and the surest way for a woman to get that is to look great.   Anyone have a BPD girlfriend that was an exercise nut?

[sad but wiser]

BPD women are attractive because they make you feel so wonderful at first.  After all, no one else ever understood them.  Everyone else abused them... .  no one else appreciated them or took good care of them like you do.  And don't you think that since BPD women tend to have terrible self-esteem problems and are fairly self-absorbed, they have the time and will spend the time to look as fabulous as possible?  They want attention and praise and the surest way for a woman to get that is to look great.   Anyone have a BPD girlfriend that was an exercise nut?

[struggli]

Struggli, She probably thought she was sharing intimacy, too... .  using the only currency she felt she had... .  

That makes me sad.  She read a book about recovering from sexual trauma when we were broken up for about a week.  Then she wanted to be back with me and tell me all about the book.  The book recommended that if a trauma survivor was in a relationship and wanted to make the relationship work, there ought to be a moratorium on sex -- at a minimum 3 months, but a year was ideal.  She asked if we could do the 3 months.  I said yes, although I wasn't enthused about the idea.  But if it would help her and it was what she needed, I told her it was worth it to me.  I wasn't even trying to make any moves, but a couple weeks later she was practically demanding sex.  All so confusing... .  

I can't stress enough (IMHO) that BOTH men and women are operating with young (foolish if you wish, maybe naive?) assumptions and expectations about what a partner can reasonably provide. I don't see either the man or the woman as plotting evil intent... .  but both are missing the mark.

Can't someone have a partner to which they are attracted and sexual fulfillment as well?  Is that unreasonable?  Or are you saying something else here?

On another note, that I find confusing... .  isn't it paradoxical to desire the hot, skilled, porn star sex female... .  but then be shocked and surprised to find that a very sexually aggressive  woman with you... Is also very highly provocative with others? Is it realistic to expect a near professional level of sexual prowress to be directed at you and only you alone? Is part of the fantasy include magical thinking that this perfect sexual goddess is a whore only with you? Also, I constantly  read these two conflicting messages from males:

I've been with a few women like that, who were really into me, and only me.  Yet I was either immature or emotionally unavailable.  It does exist and I don't think it has to be within the confines of unhealthiness or fantasy.  So, to me, it was only reasonable that I had found it again with the recent ex, but this time (I believed) I was in the right place to be with somebody, I was open to this woman, and, well, everything seemed to match (possibly just mirroring assuming the BPD trait).

"I didnt know what happiness was UNTIL I had this intense sexual relationship with my porn star rockin hawt ex BPDgf, no one else has ever made me feel THAT good. I never wanted to really be with anyone else, healthy women are boring, I never wanted to really commit to any of my normal past gf's... .  but my crazy rockin hawt BPD ex... .  I'd do anything for her! Then she flirted with other men and dumped me, what a whore. Gosh, what's with all the psycho sluts out there these days?... .  seems  like there's a lot of them... .  seems like there's a lot of borderline women out there... .  gee... .  I wonder why that is?"

Huh?

I have grown to feel inadequate/boring if I don't have sex with a woman right away (or at least try), so perhaps it's my currency as well.  Maybe I only attract crazy women without boundaries, but I've found "no sex on the first date = no second date."  Some will wait patiently for a second attempt, but later complain that I didn't try on the first. 

I'd like a "boring" beautiful women that I can grow with intimately.  I'd rather we learn from each other than her be a sex superstar because she had sex with a hundred guys before me.

That seems like an unreasonable fantasy to me at this point.

Maria, you make a very good point. Hot is not just a word for attractive, it is specific to sexual attractiveness... .  You would not call a pretty little girl "hot".

True.

[id-crisis]

So females, what attracted you to your male BPD ?

Before meeting, we had spoken over the phone regarding some work that needed doing - his voice was very seductive but not in a sexual way. His voice was very soft and he really was a wordsmith ... .  sigh  


Foolowing this rather lengthy phone call, I was secretly looking forward to meeting him and was momentarily disappointed by his physical appearance when I answered the door to him. While he was working, I couldn't take my eyes off him - the way he moved, his posture ... .  his silence while he was working  

Oh My God! I have never in my life felt that sort of magnetism, didn't even know it was possible ... .  never will again  :'(

The initial attraction for me was absolutely not based on looks but needless to say, as I spent more time with him and started falling in love with him, he surely became the most amazing, beautiful looking man to walk the earth.

[waitaminute]

All thumbs on my cell phone browser. Wish there was a delete button.

[waitaminute]

By the way... .  

A "hot" anything can give you first, second, and third degree burns. There's a lesson there, I think

[Leaf]

I'm female but nevertheless I've been going on about how attractive my BPDxbf was and that doing without the sex was one of the hardest things.

So females, what attracted you to your male BPD ?

I was single one day after a ten year relationship, and there was this big attractive guy who made eye contact at the gym. He looked a bit older than I usually go for (that is, he looked my age) and he was a different type from my exes before that. I considered that a good thing because I wanted to break my pattern.

Struggli's and Rjh45's posts made me realize some things. I remember now that before the eye contact I found him handsome but not out of my league at all. When he made eye contact and we talked a bit I began to find him not just handsome but very goodlooking and very attractive. (He's very good at making initial eye contact, once we were in the relationship eye contact became a lot harder for him.) Later I began to think he was out of my league. And now I still find him the most attractive man in the world, I've never seen anyone I find more attractive than him, and I can't see what the fun would be in having sex with anyone else.

That I began to think he was really super handsome and out of my league must have resulted from the mechanism Struggli describes. He was always making eye contact and flirting all over the place, hordes of drooling women everywhere (he has jobs where he has endless fresh supply), and I got those looks from other women as if they were studying me to see what it took to hook a man like that. He especially liked it when celebrities were interested in him.

Over six weeks after breaking up I have that same thing Rjh45 describes (in a milder, much milder form) that I find his fantasy more appealing than the real man. When I see him I don't find him that attractive anymore. I see his BPD interior shining through. My family thinks I'm out of his league, even his mother thinks I'm better looking than he is. And about the not-so-hot pictures Turtle talks about: I always found him a lot less goodlooking in pictures than in reality, in some pictures it even looks as if he must have paid me. I always thought that was because he just isn't so photogenic. Now I read all this it might be the same thing an acquaintance of mine had with her guru. I saw her guru talk on tv once and it was chrystal clear to me he was a con man and a fraud – he had that written all over his face, brrrr. My acquaintance on the other hand was listening to him magnetized, tears in her eyes. She thought he was the most beautiful person she'd ever seen.

[lost007]

Turtle. "Hot" is how you feel inside when you just look at a woman. Now is that shallow? Maybe. But as with most things the explanation is not so simple.  The emotional attachment that you form with your pwBPD puts that hotness on a different level. Like it or not we all have preferences in what we like appearance wise. It may be with a style of clothing, a vehicle. It may be with our partner. The intensity of the attraction when that pwBPD is singing our tune so to speak intensifies the outward attraction. I don't think "hot" is always superficial. It may be sometime but certain vernacular and slang take hold at different times.  I think hot is a "hot" term to use right now. But i know for me my stbex isn't hot.  She has caused a thermonuclear reaction. The outward "hotness" has had to take a back seat to the inner turmoil and nuclear destruction. 

[MaybeSo]

Struggli,

Yes I think it's very possible to have good sexual chemistry with a person without it necessarily involving crazy. I've had that, I think 3 women on this thread are indicating they are attractive, sexual, loving women... .  able to also be loyal, etc. So, yea, it's very possible. But to make it long term, it does take some growing up.

I think the intense magnetism and charm a person with BPD (w/NPD traits) wields is truly formidable... .  And can be intoxicating to both men and women.  I see an intense charming personality today... .  and my spidey senses go up... .  I'm thinking, interesting how intensely charming this person is... .  something to pay attention to in terms of your own heightened awareness.  As 2010 posts, we all have certain wounds that not understood or owned... .  can

make certain hooks especially appealing to us, so we get easily hooked in.  I have taken the

tact of learning more about MY own wounds, and how to nurture those wounds myself... .  the

thought that I've met the perfect person would be my own red flag... .  There are no perfect

people. What is going on inside me that makes this person seem like the answers to my

prayers?

Yes, we all use the term hot... .  or is it "hawt?" today, thanks to Paris Hilton and her home

brewed sex tape. Yet another young, sexy train wreck of a woman.  Sigh.

It's just a fact of life, a part of our current culture.

I usually just ignore it, laugh at it... Sometimes use it myself in gest.

But for what it's worth... .  that way of talking, so glib, brash, young, it bothers me. It usually feels 'off'. It does seem degrading, it seems dumb.  I hear it all the time, on this board, and in the world. I hear women say it just as much as men. I hear people in their 30s, 40s and 50s talk this way. I still believe the language we use says something and means something and makes an impact. We are in a culture where being young is coveted and on-demand intense sexuality is the norm, little or no boundaries, little common courtesy... .  People use this language all the time in front of little kids in public... People throw down f-bombs all the time in public! We are so without any boundaries or awareness these days... .  It's just considered totally normal.  It is what it is. But, to borrow another over used teenage

phrase... .  it sucks.

[turtle]

Yes I think it's very possible to have good sexual chemistry with a person without it necessarily involving crazy. I've had that, I think 3 women on this thread are indicating they are attractive, sexual, loving women... .  able to also be loyal, etc. So, yea, it's very possible. But to make it long term, it does take some growing up.

Struggli --- it IS possible.  I've experienced it first hand!

But for what it's worth... .  that way of talking, so glib, brash, young, it bothers me. It usually feels 'off'. It does seem degrading, it seems dumb.  

I hear it all the time, on this board, and in the world. I hear women say it just as much as men. I hear people in their 30s, 40s and 50s talk this way. I still believe the language we use says something and means something and makes an impact. We are in a culture where being young is coveted and on-demand intense sexuality is the norm, little or no boundaries, little common courtesy... .   People use this language all the time in front of little kids in public... People throw down f-bombs all the time in public! We are so without any boundaries or awareness these days... .  It's just considered totally normal.  It is what it is. But, to borrow another over used teenage

phrase... .  it sucks.

Yes.  It sucks!  And... .  don't even get me started on the lack of common courtesy or boundaries in our society as a whole.

You've written exactly how I feel.  And... .  when I see the term "hot" splattered all over the media (which bombards us 27/4)  -- and it's used for women that are at best, slutty, I become confused when someone then uses that term about ME.  I don't want to be lumped in with that!

By the way... .  

A "hot" anything can give you first, second, and third degree burns. There's a lesson there, I think

Oh... .  I love this!

[turtle]

This is a great thread. I think of 'hot' as to do with sex. It means more than attractive, it means HOT. Hot means sexually hot however we try and spin it.

You could describe a child as 'pretty' attractive' 'beautiful'. You would never describe a child as hot because it means concerning sex. And I believe it is to do with the way pornography has become so deeply entrenched in our culture's approach to sex, young women and young men are growing up with distorted messages about what is healthy and what is expected. Our young people are becoming damaged, BPD or not.

I think this is so true!

2. For me, in casual context, it can associate other qualities and also be a way to talk about the blinding effect of BPD infatuation.

For instance, man she was so HOT that I didn't see this craziness coming. Meaning something more like, she had all these qualities that made her attractive because obviously being hot in of itself can mean someone is bat___. It's a simple way to bond with others through common language. What guy hasn't been super attracted to a girl and then been blindsided by BPD (obviously almost every guy on this board has ). But sometimes you don't want to say that. After a long day of fighting and having to over-explain yourself to your partner or expartner you just wanna say, "she was so hot... .  how could she have been crazy?" Much easier than a wall of text describing all the innerworkings of being blinded and dealing with the drama.

I get this.  It's like a form of shorthand. .

However... .  my shorthand would be... .  "She was so crazy hot, that of course... .  she was batsh!t crazy."

[Cumulus]

Ah trevjim, because he was hot. 

Actually good question, he just seemed to love me so much.

[turtle]

Actually good question, he just seemed to love me so much.

Such a short, concise, simple answer that speaks VOLUMES! 

Cumulus 

[turtle]

And about the not-so-hot pictures Turtle talks about: I always found him a lot less goodlooking in pictures than in reality, in some pictures it even looks as if he must have paid me.

Leaf --- what do you mean "it even looks as if he must have paid me?"

[struggli]

And about the not-so-hot pictures Turtle talks about: I always found him a lot less goodlooking in pictures than in reality, in some pictures it even looks as if he must have paid me.

Leaf --- what do you mean "it even looks as if he must have paid me?"

I think she means it appeared as if she were "out of his league" according to pictures, that he hired her like an escort or something.

[Leaf]

Yup, that's what I meant.

[turtle]

On another note, that I find confusing... .  isn't it paradoxical to desire the hot, skilled, porn star sex female... .  but then be shocked and surprised to find that a very sexually aggressive  woman with you... Is also very highly provocative with others? Is it realistic to expect a near professional level of sexual prowress to be directed at you and only you alone? Is part of the fantasy include magical thinking that this perfect sexual goddess is a whore only with you? Also, I constantly  read these two conflicting messages from males:

Reading these things from the males here usually makes me raise an eyebrow too.

On the flip side of this is what we women do.  For example... .  I used to have a pattern of being attracted to "bad boys."  I was actually naive enough or arrogant enough or something to believe that they would never be bad to ME.  When in fact, I should have known all along that it was just a matter of time.  Then... .  when the "bad" was eventually directed at me, I was shocked, devastated, hurt and so on.  And really... .  I should have expected it and most certainly should never have been so surprised by it.

It was foolish of me to think that a "bad boy" wouldn't be "bad" to ME.

Okay... .  they will lock this thread soon.  Just in case I'm not around before they do, I want to thank everyone who participated here. 

This was a good learning moment for me!  But just so you know... .  I still don't like the term "hot"  .

THANK YOU!

turtle

[spaceace]

To me, my wife was/is hot. But that was only a small part of it for me. I thought the hottest thing about her was her intelligence. I was always impressed with what she accomplished in life, both before me and during our time together. Her beauty was possibly seen by other men, but she didn't think so. I saw the total package of physical beauty, intelligence, emotionally giving, (at times) and emotionally loving (when we weren't separated or she painted me black). I was able to recognize all these traits and held on to them even in the worst of times. All bundled together is what I thought was hot. Physically, my wife was beyond skinny. At times, her weight would drop below 100 lbs. For a woman who is 5'7", that's not healthy. She was underdeveloped physically and she was always acutely aware of this and didn't feel comfortable or attractive. But in my eyes, she was the most beautiful woman in the world. Regardless of this, BPD is still an insidious issue when untreated. As we all know.

[Scott44]

Is beauty really in the eye of the beholder?  I did a study once where people had to rate other people's physical appearance on a scale of 1-10.  The standard deviation was very low.  In other words, the participants in the study showed a lot of agreement as to who was attractive and who was not.  Note that in this study, only head shots were used so the agreement was based on that rather than on the targets' bodies.  When these target photos were presented to a new group of participants, the good looking targets were judged to be smarter, to have more desirable attitudes, and to have attitudes that matched those of the participants.  This is called "the halo effect".  Physical attractiveness is, objectively speaking, a very trivial trait.  When it comes to performing well in life, things like intelligence and ethics are far more important than physical attractiveness.  But the halo effect makes us treat physically attractive people better than people who are not physically attractive, and can sometimes lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.  For example, teachers in elementary schools have been found to spend more time engaging with more physically attractive students, leading to the appearance of more intelligence.

When we live with someone or become really close to them, we begin to see beyond the trivial trait of physical attractiveness.  What becomes attractive is the extent to which a person shares our values and preferences.

[MaybeSo]

Regardless of this, BPD is still an insidious issue when untreated. As we all know.

Yes, it is.

[MaybeSo]

Scott44,

I know there's has been quite a few studies (cultural anthropology etc.) that shows patterns of attractions, signs of beauty equal signs of basic health as indicatiors of healthy offspring... .  shiny hair, clear skin, sparkle in the eyes, eyes set a certain distance apart, symetry of facial features... .  we do have a certain blue print probably wired into our genetic code at this point about what is basically healthy and therfore attractive because are gut tells us our offspring will be healthy if we mate with this person.

With time and interaction, we then learn about a person's insides, core values and beliefs etc., and we get to see how they relate to others in close quarters, how they manage difficult emotions etc.

The health/beauty factor can easily mask what might be a person whose insides are very messed up, ... .  a gorgeous person can easily be very emotinally unhealthy or emotinally immature inside. 

But... .  at some level... .  depending on OUR make up, and our own emotional maturity or immaturity... .  the offerings that an emotionally unhealthy person provides may seem like frosting on the cake... .  when it really should be a sign of poor relating ability.   I will say it again... .  a very overtly sexualized woman, who leads with her sexuality, who is sharing way too much intimate details about her life way too soon... .  especially if she is sharing tails of victimization... .  is announcing that she IS not emotinally in a good place.  No matter how sexy or hot she is... .  she is announcing something that ought to be paid attention to seriously... .  and not just becasuse she is presenting as hot.

Turtle you make a good point that women fall into this same trap with the bad boy syndrom... .  he's so sexy and makes ME feel so good... .  he certainly won't be BAD to me! Is that narcisstic to think this person will be difficult with everyone else but we're so special they won't be difficult with US?

Isn't the pull or the hook at some level in these situations just plain old narcissitic supply?  Isn't that what damaged people are offering us?  Isnt that what we, with our own unmet needs and wounds from childhood  responding to, even becomming addicted to over time?   

At some level, isn't it a form of narcisstic supply that BPD women (and men) are so good at providng and then taking away?

[trevjim]

Scott44,

I know there's has been quite a few studies (cultural anthropology etc.) that shows patterns of attractions, signs of beauty equal signs of basic health as indicatiors of healthy offspring... .  shiny hair, clear skin, sparkle in the eyes, eyes set a certain distance apart, symetry of facial features... .  we do have a certain blue print probably wired into our genetic code at this point about what is basically healthy and therfore attractive because are gut tells us our offspring will be healthy if we mate with this person.

With time and interaction, we then learn about a person's insides, core values and beliefs etc., and we get to see how they relate to others in close quarters, how they manage difficult emotions etc.

The health/beauty factor can easily mask what might be a person whose insides are very messed up, ... .  a gorgeous person can easily be very emotinally unhealthy or emotinally immature inside. 

But... .  at some level... .  depending on OUR make up, and our own emotional maturity or immaturity... .  the offerings that an emotionally unhealthy person provides may seem like frosting on the cake... .  when it really should be a sign of poor relating ability.   I will say it again... .  a very overtly sexualized woman, who leads with her sexuality, who is sharing way too much intimate details about her life way too soon... .  especially if she is sharing tails of victimization... .  is announcing that she IS not emotinally in a good place.  No matter how sexy or hot she is... .  she is announcing something that ought to be paid attention to seriously... .  and not just becasuse she is presenting as hot.

Turtle you make a good point that women fall into this same trap with the bad boy syndrom... .  he's so sexy and makes ME feel so good... .  he certainly won't be BAD to me! Is that narcisstic to think this person will be difficult with everyone else but we're so special they won't be difficult with US?

Isn't the pull or the hook at some level in these situations just plain old narcissitic supply?  Isn't that what damaged people are offering us?  Isnt that what we, with our own unmet needs and wounds from childhood  responding to, even becomming addicted to over time?   

At some level, isn't it a form of narcisstic supply that BPD women (and men) are so good at providng and then taking away?

Absolutley, my ego probably went from +3 before her, to +20 with her, and then when she left meI went into freefall and id say I hit a -30. N/C and understanding BPD is making me climb back up though

[turtle]

Turtle you make a good point that women fall into this same trap with the bad boy syndrom... .  he's so sexy and makes ME feel so good... .  he certainly won't be BAD to me! Is that narcisstic to think this person will be difficult with everyone else but we're so special they won't be difficult with US?

Isn't the pull or the hook at some level in these situations just plain old narcissitic supply?  Isn't that what damaged people are offering us?  Isnt that what we, with our own unmet needs and wounds from childhood  responding to, even becomming addicted to over time?  

At some level, isn't it a form of narcisstic supply that BPD women (and men) are so good at providng and then taking away?

Yes. i DO think it's narcissistic to think they won't be bad to us when they are clearly bad to every one else.  That's why I used the word "arrogant."  I was arrogant to think that for some magic reason, these bad boys would not be bad to ME. Narcissistic supply is exactly what it is and it was a hard pill for me to swallow when I came to terms with it for myself.  That was not a fun day in turtle land.  Although... .  it WAS a huge turning point in turtle land.  Once I saw my bad-boy syndrome for what it really was... .  it was no longer attractive to me.  A life-long destructive pattern was broken and THAT was a great thing.

turtle

[Scott44]

MaybeSo makes a great point about narcissistic supply.  That is exactly what pwBPD are offering us.  So much so that when they begin to take it away, we will do anything to get it back.  Personally, I tried at first to exceed the attractiveness of my ex's best friend, the woman who was getting all of "my" narcissistic supply.  When that failed, I got my supply from an emotional affair with someone who told me what I wanted to hear from my wife.

[maria1]

Turtle you make a good point that women fall into this same trap with the bad boy syndrom... .  he's so sexy and makes ME feel so good... .  he certainly won't be BAD to me! Is that narcisstic to think this person will be difficult with everyone else but we're so special they won't be difficult with US?

Isn't the pull or the hook at some level in these situations just plain old narcissitic supply?  Isn't that what damaged people are offering us?  Isnt that what we, with our own unmet needs and wounds from childhood  responding to, even becomming addicted to over time?  

At some level, isn't it a form of narcisstic supply that BPD women (and men) are so good at providng and then taking away?

Yes. i DO think it's narcissistic to think they won't be bad to us when they are clearly bad to every one else.  That's why I used the word "arrogant."  I was arrogant to think that for some magic reason, these bad boys would not be bad to ME. Narcissistic supply is exactly what it is and it was a hard pill for me to swallow when I came to terms with it for myself.  That was not a fun day in turtle land.  Although... .  it WAS a huge turning point in turtle land.  Once I saw my bad-boy syndrome for what it really was... .  it was no longer attractive to me.  A life-long destructive pattern was broken and THAT was a great thing.

turtle

Absolutely what my ex gave me- he fed my narcissistic traits. He triangulated me left right and centre and constantly told me I was best. He was the attention I never got in childhood noticing every bit of me AND he was 'hot', clever and funny (or so I thought). And he's still doing it with me, I never got painted black (at least not so I knew about it). Even as he replaced me he still kept pulling the 'you're the one' card out of his box of tricks. In fact it was 'you're so much the one I can't be with you.'

You're right Turtle, it's a bitter pill but it's one I think many of us have to swallow. Our own narcissism.

Great thread- thank you! x

[almost789]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And I didnt read the whole thread but there seems to be hostility to the word 'hot'. I dont use this term much myself but when I do it is about someone who lights my fire in everyway. Mentally, physically, chemically and spiritually. I think men use the term to describe a sexually attractive woman. I dont see that it always  means slut bimbo porn star. Men can be attracted to more then just physical appearance and still think the woman is hot. Its just a word which has diffent meanings to different people. Cant woman or man be hot and not be low class slut bimbo? Of course, it just depends on what that individual perceives is hot. For some brains are hot, for some its confidence, for some its femininity, for some its assertiveness, for some its submisiveness,, and on and on... .  whats the big deal with the word its self.  Also see comments here about a sexually assertive women are all cheaters whores and sluts? As if there is no such thing as a sexually skilled woman who is commited to one person. Wow... .  as if everyone who is sexy or hot is just a cheap slutty whore who sleeps with anyone. Im detecting a bit of bitterness and labling here in regards to sexuality. Do some of you believe that there are sexually assertive women who have values or do you believe the two cant exist together?

[lbjnltx]

This thread has reached it's limit in length.

Please feel free to pick up the conversation in a new thread, keep it collegial folks!