BPD or NPD or both?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

the more i read on this forum, the more educated and aware i become. the more validated i am that it wasn't ALL me.

whew... .  

that being said, i've also realized that my exBPD seems to lean more to a NPD. which is more scary to me and i am even more glad i got out... .  

still terrified of what might come since NC... .  

has anyone else felt this? can you share?

thank you.

[MakeItHappen]

the more i read on this forum, the more educated and aware i become. the more validated i am that it wasn't ALL me.

whew... .  

that being said, i've also realized that my exBPD seems to lean more to a NPD. which is more scary to me and i am even more glad i got out... .  

still terrified of what might come since NC... .  

has anyone else felt this? can you share?

thank you.

[charred]

I have been following the Jodi Arias trial... she admits to having shot her boyfriend, slit his throat and knifed him some 27 times. She seems to be a mystery to all the commentators, they can't understand why they picked a jury of 11 men, why she spent weeks telling sordid stories of her sex escapades... and all they do is say what a great liar she is.

Do I worry, oh yeah I do, I have only seen one other person in my life that acts JUST like my exBPDgf, and it is Ms. Arias. She showed up at his home early one morning unannounced... .  having driven hours to get to him, pushed for a booty call, then when he went in to the shower afterward... she killed him. It was premeditated.

My exBPDgf has shown up unannounced twice after driving 4 hrs to get where I am, pushed for a booty call, said she couldn't take being apart from me... and I refused to take a shower afterwords... but pushed her to leave and then did... .  lots of other similarities, but the key thing is... my exBPDgf has the ability to be so furious/hateful that I have no difficulty at all believing she could shoot/slash/stab me and feel justified to herself in doing so. However that doesn't match NPD, it is consistent totally with BPD, and I think Ms. Arias is a posterchild for BPD. And a warning to many of us. Since the trial started, my exwife has asked innocently if I was following it, and I said yes... and she said, she reminds me of your crazy exgf... .  and I agreed, and she commented... I could see her doing the same things... please stay away from her.

So, as bad as my r/s with a pwBPD was... .  it could have been much worse.

The thing with NPD/BPD that is scary is the sociopathic tendencies... the lack of empathy/remorse. Once you have a person that doesn't truly care about others feelings and doesn't feel remorse for their actions, you have the potential for a monster. With BPD you have their emotions knob turned up to high, they tend to over react. So you are not bad when you do something wrong... .  you are horrible/terrible... so bad that anything they do is acceptable... .  and justifiable (well able to be rationalized by them anyway)... and that is how you make a demure looking girl, who gives pornstar exploit stories, and manipulates everyone to try to save her life from stabbing/slashing and shooting her exBF... who she was mad at because he saw another girl.

I feel it all the time... I think the details of the Arias story on TV made the hair on the back of my neck stand up... .  could have been me and my girl... .  it struck me like Fatal Attraction, the only horror movie that ever really was scary... .  I dated that girl... the real life one, I just lucked out a bit.

[MaybeSo]

Yes, Ms. Arias is a chilling example of a very sick puppy... ,she certainly presents with both borderline and sociopathic pathology. I often feel really nervous for the men on this board... .  I really caution people to pay close attention to more than just the hot sex, which Ms. Arias was known for supplying in abundance. She is trying to play herself off as a victim of DV.

[almost789]

Hi makeithappen,

Its very common to havd BPD with also with narcisistic traits. Mine is this way. What are the characteristics you pwBPD is showing making u think NPD?

[waitaminute]

I am truely glad that my exBPD lives in a distant foreign country and that she would have difficulty even getting a tourist visa. When obsessed and angry, she is capable of this sort of thing... .  Either by her hand or through some guy she mesmerized. And I can imagine her face afterwards... .  Calm, smug, and feeling justified.

[MakeItHappen]

Hi makeithappen,

Its very common to havd BPD with also with narcisistic traits. Mine is this way. What are the characteristics you pwBPD is showing making u think NPD?

Life Goes On

I found a site, kinda like this but, it's for NPD. While reading it, every letter of every word was her. It had me shaking. Not just a few words but, every single syllable.

[charred]

Hi makeithappen,

Its very common to havd BPD with also with narcisistic traits. Mine is this way. What are the characteristics you pwBPD is showing making u think NPD?

Life Goes On

I found a site, kinda like this but, it's for NPD. While reading it, every letter of every word was her. It had me shaking. Not just a few words but, every single syllable.

There is a great pdf file called "What makes a Narcissist Tick"... .  find it and read it, I think it is best explanation of how an NPD person is, ever... fit my malignant NPD father perfectly, wished they had a similar book for each disorder, would be so helpful.

Anyone with no empathy, and no remorse is a potential monster... .  the sociopathic side of them makes them dangerous. BPD,NPD... anything along thoses lines can be scary. I would rather have never crossed paths with my exBPDgf... .  but fact is I did, and it didn't turn out well. I doubt I will make that mistake again, but was so burned I feel a bit compelled to help others and try to steer them clear of the trouble. Learn not to get burned.

[MakeItHappen]

Hi makeithappen,

Its very common to havd BPD with also with narcisistic traits. Mine is this way. What are the characteristics you pwBPD is showing making u think NPD?

Life Goes On

I found a site, kinda like this but, it's for NPD. While reading it, every letter of every word was her. It had me shaking. Not just a few words but, every single syllable.

There is a great pdf file called "What makes a Narcissist Tick"... .  find it and read it, I think it is best explanation of how an NPD person is, ever... fit my malignant NPD father perfectly, wished they had a similar book for each disorder, would be so helpful.

Anyone with no empathy, and no remorse is a potential monster... .  the sociopathic side of them makes them dangerous. BPD,NPD... anything along thoses lines can be scary. I would rather have never crossed paths with my exBPDgf... .  but fact is I did, and it didn't turn out well. I doubt I will make that mistake again, but was so burned I feel a bit compelled to help others and try to steer them clear of the trouble. Learn not to get burned.

Thanks "charred"

I feel the EXACT same way about my exBPD or exNPD. Whatever she is, I really do wish I had never met her. I too feel compelled to help as well. I keep searching for "support groups" in my area and have found nothing. 

I'm at the point of N/C and have gotten rid of all the "gifts" I was given. It's feeling good right now.

[almost789]

Hi makeithappen,

There is lots of information on NPD. There are varying degress of NPD. A malignant narcissist is the most severe type. Most arent malignant narcissists. One can also have both BPD and NPD or BPD with traits of NPD. You are probably most definitly better without her if you fear for your saftey. Mine isnt cruel or sadistic. He does however use people i think. I dont know anything about this Jodi person, was she BPD or something? I would venture to say that not all BPD (w/NPD traits) people are murderers nor are all people who partake in 'hot sex in abundance' ... .  are BPD or murderers as well. So, not sure how or why this Jodi person came into the conversation.

[waitaminute]

I read that paper "what makes a narcissist tick"

My bigger problem right now is that I've transferred my addiction for my BPDex (who definitely also had narcissist behavior) to smoking and gambling... .  Two problems I didn't have -at all - before I "quit" my BPDex.

How does that relate?

I asked myself the same thing right after I read that paper.Then I did a little "pretend" experiment. Suppose "smoking" and "casino" were people.

They are not going to change. It's all about them. They use me for their own benefits (in the case of smoking, I guess I'm thinking about tobacco companies or "smoking" as some insidious entity that needs to be purchased, lit, and inhaled.) They take up my time, my money, my health. They mirror me and attract me with images that I can relate to. They give me little rewards - money and mental numbness - to keep me hooked.

I quit "BPD". I can quit these characters as well.

Sorry for the post that appears "off topic". But as i'm trying to understand my role in the dynamic of addictions - be it a BPD relationship or other - this thinking seems to help me.

[almost789]

Narcissists are usually addicts. But as far as us nons  picking up new addictions it probably has something to do with the love withdraw syndrome and trying to kill the pain.

Back to the word 'hot' again. And 'porn star sex' ive seen these terms being thrown around here alot and again I feel that everyone has a different idea of what ' hot' means. Ive read a bit more about this Jodi character since she surfaced here. It doesnt seem to me that the type of sex her and her boyfriend were engaging in is what I would consider hot but rather a bit odd. And this 'porn star sex' idea, its not my impression that men consider 'porn star sex' to be the greatest sexual experience that some seem to be making this connection, that hot means 'porn star sex.' thats not my definition of hot nor do I think many consider porn to be the ultimate and use the porn as a mere substitute when nothing else is available. And also as a substitute when irrational fears of intimacy are present. Maybe this would make a good topic , what is your individual idea of hot. And is 'porn star sex' really the ultimate? And are there really and endless number of young girls waiting to give men this porn star type sex as was noted in another thread?

[charred]

The hot/porn star sex thing... .  take it for what it is... fantasy... most people are pretty reserved about what they will do in bed, and with very little core self, pwBPD... .  often will go that extra mile to do whatever they think will please and entice you.

So ymmv as far as what they do, as it is what they think will make you supply them love. I believe that is why you hear that thrown around.

The disorder doesn't mean they are "hot"... it means they are exceptionally needy, and if they think you need them to act a certain way, ... .  initially, they probably will... .  but it is acting, and when they shift to being clingy, they are likely to act like they are conflicted about the things they did, that were not comfortable to them... .  and god help you when the hater phase hits... .  you could get the full shower shooting/slashing/knifing 27 times treatment... .  after all it is a disordered person you are dealing with.

I had a hard time understanding my pwBPD, because she came from a religious upbringing and was willing to do whatever... and then was saying things that were shockingly crude... but were not appropriate... .    for example... she defined cheating as getting emotional support from someone else. Then when she got upset with me she would tell everyone I was cheating on her, and scream that she didn't want to be someone else's sloppy second. Totally doesn't make sense, highly inflammatory and manipulative, and confused the hell out of me at the time. But they are handling the emotions like a 3 yr old, not like an adult... so it is twisted logic but matches what they feel.

I do believe the hot/porn star sex thing is common with pwBPD... .  and is not a positive thing, but a giant  , just think of the Jodi Arias trial. She is manipulating for her life no doubt, but a lot of people given a hot willing partner, would give no thought to the other person's needs and let their N tendencies go wild, that is how a lot of the drama triangle stuff happens.

[almost789]

I understand that charred. My point is just that what one person defines as  hot varies. To me the word hot does not equal ' porn star' This sex they were engaging in was sick not hot. I mean the guy wanted to tie her to a tree and have anal sex with her while she wore spiderman underware. Sick, not hot in my opinion. This man was just  as sick as she. I dont think all men think hot equates to porn star.

For instance, my husband thinks the news anchor is hot. Is she trashy, porn star, bimbo? No, yet there are people who apparently believe hot means porn star trashy nasty sex. This is not true. This is their perception only. To make the assumption that this is what all men believe is hot and will fall prey to because they dont know any better is an insult on their intelligence and character. This is obviously a very extreme case of sickness here for sure.

[charred]

I would not equate hot and porn star sex... two different things... hot is what someone finds very attractive (with a sexy side to it)... I was just explaining how I see the BPD getting those labels.

My exBPDgf was attractive when we first met, she was about 19, blonde, large chested and so emotionally expressive that it was pretty easy to see her as hot. 27 yrs later when we got back together... .  no one would describe her that way, she had put on 100 lbs, had a short ugly haircut and dressed dumpy. However once we started seeing each other again, she dropped the weight, grew out her hair and changed her look, to where she is now once again a very attractive lady for her age... my exwife says she (pwBPD) did it to please me and it is an example of the depth of her neediness due to her disorder... .  and instead of making me and my exwife happy for her... it concerns us.

Hot to some degree can be how someone carries themselves... some people exude sexiness, others have the physical build and can even have on the sexy outfit... .  but they have the effect of throwing a cold wet towel on all who see them. I think the BPD would tend to mirror and anticipate what someone wants enough to avoid the cold wet towel effect.

The mirroring aspect and intensity of trying to please someone... .  those are what gives the impression of hot... because it is adjusted to the targeted person. What you described as men not being drawn to the porn star type as hot (always anyway)... is true, and as a chameleon the draw changes to whatever the person is drawn to... and it is an act.

If you could see the emotional maturity of a person... .  then sex with someone with BPD would be repellent, as one of the partners would be so immature few would consider it. But... they look like adults, part of the time act like they are grown up, may be educated and employed... and what gets a guy drawn in is that they act... .  just like you. Wow that is ego satisfying.

I know that I listened to my exBPDgf talk about her religious upbringing, and I slept with her, and I thought... .  this is a good woman... and she is SO in love with me that she puts her love for me over her upbringing. I was in college, had a business with 3 medical clinics... drove a classic corvette roadster, was in a fraternity and had my dream girl... I even took her for granted toward the end as my ego was so stroked by the whole r/s. I knew that we would be together, have kids and I was building the business for us as a family, a way to make our life the stuff of dreams... .  then she dropped me abruptly without discussion, and took up with a neighbor of mine. Was devastated, no longer cared about anything, my dreams were shattered, I gave up the business to the people in it for nothing at all... packed a suitcase and moved 1500 miles away to start over.

The dreams I had... .  she pandered too, but they were not hers. I think often the pwBPD ignore the content of discussions and just respond to the form... they don't think about what you are talking about... they pay attention to how... so if you respond well to certain things... like building a business, they smile and say shallow positive affirmations about it, things that make you believe they are the soul mate you elevate them to be. But their experience of the r/s is not like ours... they want someone, almost anyone to love them, and are desperate about it, so they say whatever they have to and watch that the person is buying it, and then the effort of acting gets to them, and they start to relax and fear you will leave them... .  so they get clingy... at some point you disappoint them, bring to much reality in to the r/s and the anger and hate come out, then you actually hear how they really feel about a lot of things... .  like the sex, your interests that they could care less about, and anything else you have done that didn't really match well with them... .  and it is confusing/devastating... .  and usually dealt with mostly by denial... as we think the true stuff was all the early mirroring.

Its insidious. The only early sign I had of something off was her emotions were stronger than normal... that was it, like the emotion volume knob was way too high.

[almost789]

I agree, this seems to definitely be a mirroring case here.  She describes doing this stuff because she knew he liked it and she didnt want him to think his fantasies were weird, so she went along. Her new bf describes their relatiinship and sex as the complete opposite of this one she had with Travis. Shes a sick girl no doubt, so was he a sick puppy. Not all men find this sick porn sex hot. Thats my only point. The subject of hot came up in another thread and somethink hot means skank, whore, porn star sex, when in fact I dont think most men find that hot. At least not healthy ones. But i do agree, mirroring going on here, could be some borderline/narcissistic couple going on here. She will at some point be evaluated by a court ordered mental health assesment if she hasnt already. Im suprised they didnt go with an insanity plea.

[charred]

I am not surprised with how they are handling the case, and would have been very surprised with an insanity plea... because that would require her to admit to the world something was wrong with her... and if she is BPD (which I think she is)... that would be the last thing she would do.

However, if she can convince the jury that she was taken advantage of... not enough to get off 100% from murdering him, but to get convicted of manslaughter... .  then she can be out in as little as another year or two. She has a jury with 11 men, and has been doing the enticing push/pull BPD thing with them, dressing as a bit of prude, while telling porn star stories... .  and winning over people. At first everyone was seeing it as 100% open/closed case. Now it seems like the big mean prosecutor is bullying her and ... .  well people are getting drawn in to her stories... and acting, as most of us on these boards have personally experienced. She doesn't have to get away with murder... she can win with a lesser conviction... and I suspect that may be what happens.

I believe she truly had the feelings that led her to overkill Travis... no question they were real to her, and that she seems quite disordered. It is morbidly fascinating to follow the trial... .  my exwife who I hadn't talked to for a while called me and asked if I was following it, I said yes, and she said for me to please stop, that kind of thing is going to eat you up... .  we both know who Jodi is like... your exBPDgf...   and she is right.

[almost789]

Well her defense is self defence that he attacked her. I dont see how thats going to fly when he was found in the shower. Her story that he jumped out of the showere chased her down the hall at which time she shot him stabbed him and then drug him back down the hall and placed him back in the shower all in less than 60 seconds makez absolutely no sense. Not sure how their going to win that one. However, her losing it by means of temporary insanity makes more sense.  But zhe iz in charge of her defense, so perhaps your right. This is her illogical chozen defence  based on placing all blame on him. There is evidence of his sick bdsm sexual preferences, but still this wont justify her murdering  him.

[charred]

It doesn't justify it, and the jury won't let her off completely as she has admitted doing it, but they may think she doesn't deserve to die and have just enough pity and empathy to agree to manslaughter. She could even be off with time served if they do that... .  then she could get a legal name change, change her look, and head out to the next trade convention to find her next lucky guy. Jurors like her would have her put to death, no empathy... .  but I suspect 11 guys were chosen for their perceived ability to be swayed by her... I am cynical by nature... and expect her to get the manslaughter conviction... .  but it was clearly premeditated murder... .  by her own admission.