I'm struggling with me

[Scott44]

My therapist said this morning that I have a "need to please", partially because I could never please my dad.  This is one reason why I get involved with pwBPD.  There is a constant and never-ending battle to try and please them.  She also said I have a "need to be needed".  Obviously this would draw me towards pwBPD.  They have a never-ending list of needs to take care of.

[Scott44]

My mom says she, "Just wants her son back."  The son who could wake up at 5 a.m., workout for two hours, go to work and lecture in front of hundreds of people.  The son with a good sense of humor, etc.  I don't think she realizes that there was something wrong with that son too, to get involved with so many pwBPD.

[waitaminute]

As bad as psychologists say those traits are, I think in moderation they are good traits.

I have the same qualities... .  Though not so much the need to please. But I need to be needed... .  not just with significant others. People come into my office and ask questions. (I'm an engineer). I am always eager to share my time and to help to the extent that I feel they need it.

So with a significant other, I want to provide for them, 

[maria1]

Hi Scott

Have you read anything about codependency? I'm nearly through 'Codependent no more' by Melody Beattie and it's been really useful for me. I too have a father for whom nothing was ever good enough and I also had a disordered brother.

When I first looked at codependency, on the CODA website, I didn't think I really fitted, but having read much more I see that there are different types of codependents and we don't all have all the same behaviour.

Needing to please and needing to be needed are huge clues to codependency traits. My favourite definition of CD is that we focus on others' pain as a way of avoiding our own. That's what i was doing for all of my life and BPD relationship helped me realise that all my relationships have been dysfunctional and there have been quite a few PDs in there too.

[waitaminute]

"Focus in others' pain to avoid our own"

Wow... .  That's me. I empathize like some people breathe. And when you have two people in pain... .  say your exwife and some BPD woman who needs you... you will end up like I did... .  In therapy. In fact, it -the pain of others - was what I weighed in the decision to say goodbye to BPD. I weighed my exwife's pain (she wanted me back) against how deserving my BPDgf was of the sacrifices that caused that pain. After weighing my BPDgf's behavior, I decided that she did not deserve the sacrifice that caused my exwife's pain. That's pretty screwed up thinking I guess. Codependent maybe. It all made logical sense to me though. That's why I'm in therapy.

[maria1]

There's a link to an on line empathy test in a thread on here somewhere. I scored super high which sort of shocked me, I mean I've always known that I empathise BUT I never thought of it as a problem.

It was a turning point for me in where I need to focus my work on me. Over empathising has continually got me in trouble and continually causes me pain ultimately. It has a good side too but it sure makes life hard work.

[Scott44]

I think the reason it is so hard for me to detach is the amount I gave up in the r/s.  For example, I allowed her, while she was a student of mine, to move in with me, ending my career as a university professor. 

I feel like if I gave up this much, there should be some payoff, in other words a loving, intimate r/s.

[seeking balance]

I think the reason it is so hard for me to detach is the amount I gave up in the r/s.  For example, I allowed her, while she was a student of mine, to move in with me, ending my career as a university professor. 

I feel like if I gave up this much, there should be some payoff, in other words a loving, intimate r/s.

This is your issue, not about her.  Do you see this is not a BPD issue of hers, this is your issue.  Inappropriate boundaries perhaps?

[wanttoknowmore]

Scott44,

You took a calculated risk... or gamble on this girl. You expected a certain outcome... but in taking risk,things can go either way. This turned out to be a "bad risk." I would cut my losses and walk forward and not look back. Apology for being straight and blunt. It was your decision... it went wrong... own it and move on.

[turtle]

I think the reason it is so hard for me to detach is the amount I gave up in the r/s.  For example, I allowed her, while she was a student of mine, to move in with me, ending my career as a university professor.  

I feel like if I gave up this much, there should be some payoff, in other words a loving, intimate r/s.

And why is it that we think "love" (which it really isn't) is supposed to be so costly?

Long ago, when crazyx first left, I used to say things like you've said here all the time.  Stuff like "no one will ever know what I gave up to make this work."  I look at those statements I made so long ago and think "well... .  turtle, that's YOUR fault."

Since when did "love" have to be so sacrificial?  And in your case, Scott44, you're saying you gave up your very livlihood for "love?"  Real love shouldn't cost that much. This is just bad judgment.

Don't worry though... .  you're in good company. Many of us here did the same thing and then felt like martyrs about it.

If I told you all that I gave up in the distorted name of "love," you'd be amazed.  I know I am.  I used VERY poor judgment.  For me, it's eleven years later and I'm still paying the price financially for my VERY poor judgment!

turtle

[Scott44]

It's a given that it was bad judgement on my part.  Where the BPD might come in is the idealization which made me feel that it was worth risking so much.  And the constant phone calls in the middle of the night asking to be saved.  I know it wasn't my job to save her but that is what I was trying to do - at the expense of a profession I loved.  And yes, I see that love shouldn't cost so much.

[seeking balance]

It's a given that it was bad judgement on my part.  Where the BPD might come in is the idealization which made me feel that it was worth risking so much.  And the constant phone calls in the middle of the night asking to be saved.  I know it wasn't my job to save her but that is what I was trying to do - at the expense of a profession I loved.  And yes, I see that love shouldn't cost so much.

Scott - at 95 posts, why not take this over to the taking inventory board and explain your own issues on why you ended up in this situation. 

A lot of people are idealized and walk on by... .  I have now learned to do that in dating as it is a red flag.  This is really your issue - focus on you now so you can move forward in your own life and create a healthy, happy life.

[Scott44]

seeking balance

Thanks for the suggestion.

Scott

[seeking balance]

   

seeking balance

Thanks for the suggestion.

Scott

[sotiredtoonice]

Need to please, need to be needed, definitely me. I never really thought about it until I read what Scott44 said, but I could never please my parents growing up. I have a twin sister who has always managed to please, but not me, I have always said I was never good enough for the rest of my family. I certainly don't try to please them anymore, but perhaps this is why I have found myself in this situation I am in... .  Great food for thought! 

[Scott44]

I guess I was more need of idealization than those who just walk on by.  Again, I think that goes back to something from when I was really young i.e., overachievement in a vain attempt to please my dad

[Scott44]

Sometimes reading the posts here makes me stop and say to myself, ":)oes she really have BPD?"  I mean, she was physically abusive, which most BPDs aren't, and she beat our cat, while most BPDs love animals.  Sure she did the cutting and endless suicidal gestures, the idealization followed be devaluing, the rages, etc.  Maybe she has BPD and some APD.

[Whatwasthat]

Hi Scott.

I can relate to the experience of being an 'over-achieving' child who aimed to please. And I suspect there may be a connection here with a willingness to sacrifice a good profession for 'love'.

I was quite a workaholic for many years - I would argue for good and bad reasons. I had a great job which was very fulfilling and knew I was lucky to have it - but it demanded crazy hours - and vast amounts of energy. Also I had a very damaging inner belief that there was a connection between throwing effort into tasks and 'succeeding' and somehow 'winning love'. I thought that the harder you worked the more you would be loved... .  makes no rational sense at all of course but it's an easy pattern to fall into when your behaviour has been set that way in childhood. I was - for a long time - to all intents and purposes 'married' to my job. Clearly not good.

So perhaps if someone comes along and appears to offer 'perfect' love - apparently complete and unconditional and greater than anything that one has experienced before (yes I know APPEARS is the operative word here) - and one has a tendency towards 'over-achievement' and equating ones job with getting  emotional needs met - then one might - madly - and briefly - think on a certain level  - 'I don't need my job anymore - because look - this person is offering me all the love I've ever needed.' Not rational of course. But understandable in that context.

Just a thought based on my own experience which might or might not apply to you.  WWT.  

[Maryiscontrary]

Yes, with good relationship, you shouldnt have to leave a pound of flesh by the door. Good relationships leave you with with a good relaxed feeling, not an anxious, drained feeling.

[Maryiscontrary]

A true friend would never do things that would jeopardize your career, a true friend would support you, and provide career contacts for the future. A true friend makes effort to support your growth.

[turtle]

Sometimes reading the posts here makes me stop and say to myself, ":)oes she really have BPD?"  I mean, she was physically abusive, which most BPDs aren't, and she beat our cat, while most BPDs love animals.  Sure she did the cutting and endless suicidal gestures, the idealization followed be devaluing, the rages, etc.  Maybe she has BPD and some APD.

I know it's hard not to get stuck on wanting a label.  I wanted that for a long time too. Crazyx is a violent man.  Does he have BPD? Probably, but he's got more than that too.  And really... .  the bottom line is (with or without a label) abuse is not okay. No matter what the "disorder," you need to protect yourself.  Anyone who physically harms me has got to go.  And anyone who harms my animals better sleep with one eye open.

turtle

[Scott44]

Whatwasthat,

Thanks for your post.  It started off slowly at first.  I walked her to the police station to help her file a stalking complaint against an ex-boyfriend.  That is when a few rumors started.  Things got really ramped up when she deliberately got seats right beside mine at a concert, making it LOOK like a date (it wasn't).  There was a slow but constant pushing back of my boudaries which culminated in her moving in with me.

I too was a workaholic.  When she came along my thinking wasn't as clear as, "I'm going to trade in this career for her love" but it turned out that way.  

Maryiscontrary, yes, a true friend would never have "made" me jeopardize my career.  But I guess I'm supposed to be looking at myself here, and it did take 2 people to destroy that career.  

[seeking balance]

I guess I was more need of idealization than those who just walk on by.  Again, I think that goes back to something from when I was really young i.e., overachievement in a vain attempt to please my dad

How are you working on healing this part of you?

[Scott44]

seeking balance,

I'm trying to understand that my dad gave me all he could.  It was basically impossible to get on his radar.  I need to realize that some of this is about what he wasn't able to give and not about me not being good enough.  If someone ever idealizes me again, it will not feel so "right" as it did with my ex.

[seeking balance]

seeking balance,

I'm trying to understand that my dad gave me all he could.  It was basically impossible to get on his radar.  I need to realize that some of this is about what he wasn't able to give and not about me not being good enough.  If someone ever idealizes me again, it will not feel so "right" as it did with my ex.

glad you are working on this.

so, how does your opening post fit with what you wrote here?  What emotion are/were you feeling that prompted the initial post sort of focused on your BPD ex versus focusing on your own emotions?

[Scott44]

seeking balance,

I was angry.  At myself for destroying a perfectly good career and at my ex for not being the person I thought I was sacrificing for.

[seeking balance]

seeking balance,

I was angry.  At myself for destroying a perfectly good career and

Ok - so how are you going to forgive yourself?

at my ex for not being the person I thought I was sacrificing for.

why is this relevant?  I mean, how long did you work in your studies and such to get the professor job?  And how long did you know this woman before you chose to jeopardize it? 

[Scott44]

seeking balance

I can consider it a lesson learned, and an expensive one at that.

I had worked about a decade to gain my position as a prof.  I had know her for less than a year when I chose to jeopardize it.  Point taken.

Scott

[seeking balance]

seeking balance

I can consider it a lesson learned, and an expensive one at that.

is this how you forgive yourself?

I had worked about a decade to gain my position as a prof.  I had know her for less than a year when I chose to jeopardize it.  Point taken.

I can see how you would be angry about this... .  do you honestly blame her or are you sure you don't blame yourself?

Again, life is messy - we all make mistakes... .  blaming someone we think is mentally ill for our part of bad decisions - well that is just maladaptive coping on our parts, don't you think?

[Scott44]

seeking balance,

I can only forgive myself if I understand that my choices were what I thought best at that time.  And learn from the mistakes.

I don't really blame her.  I could have told her in no uncertain terms to stop following me around the university but I didn't have those kind of boundaries in effect at the time.  I was too afraid that I would hurt someone's feelings.

[seeking balance]

I can only forgive myself if I understand that my choices were what I thought best at that time.  And learn from the mistakes.

Is that what you are doing now?

[Scott44]

seeking balance

Yes, I can honestly say that I am at that point.

[seeking balance]

seeking balance

Yes, I can honestly say that I am at that point.

so, is there anything else you want to process with this thread?

Perhaps in the future, take this to personal inventory and start with your emotional state... .  sometimes we use these boards to self-soothe which it seems you are doing at the moment.

[Scott44]

seeking balance

There really isn't anything else to process with this thread.  The advice to go with topics like this to personal inventory and to start with my emotional state is good advice.

Thanks,

Scott

[Scott44]

I am upset and concerned to read in her divorce papers that she said she would kill herself if she stayed with me any longer.  In the past it was always her mom making her suicidal, or her brother, or her dad, or a colleague in a civic organization, or her T, etc. etc.  I was the one who saved her from wanting to commit suicide.  She always said she would be dead without me.  This is making me feel like I am no better than the other people who drove her to the edge.  I'm concerned about my self.  It appears that I have enough flaws to cause someone close to me to feel suicidal.  

[turtle]

I am upset and concerned to read in her divorce papers that she said she would kill herself if she stayed with me any longer.  In the past it was always her mom making her suicidal, or her brother, or her dad, or a colleague in a civic organization, or her T, etc. etc.  I was the one who saved her from wanting to commit suicide.  She always said she would be dead without me.  This is making me feel like I am no better than the other people who drove her to the edge.  I'm concerned about my self.  It appears that I have enough flaws to cause someone close to me to feel suicidal. 

I don't know, Scott44... .  your Savior Complex seems in high gear in your description of yourself here.

Maybe you DO have enough flaws to cause someone close to you to feel suicidal.  You are trained in psychiatry.  If you examine yourself as objectively as possible, do you think this is true?

The other side of that is that this girl was not well.  Period.  When I read how you have described her in other threads, it is clear that she is not sound, not well, not rational, violent, abusive, hurts animals, and so forth.  It also sounds to me from your other threads that she isn't interested in changing her life or her destructive ways.

Sounds to me as if it was a bad combo.  You wanting to save someone that didn't want to be saved, doesn't make for a successful outcome!

How can you move forward with your life and exit from the Savior role?

turtle

[Scott44]

hi turtle,

It appears she becomes suicidal over anyone she spends any length of time around.  Maybe it is a testament to my good qualities that she has taken so long before seeing me in that dark role.  It is hurtful though. 

The Savior role is quite ingrained so I would say an exit from this role will take a lot of conscious effort.

[turtle]

hi turtle,

It appears she becomes suicidal over anyone she spends any length of time around.  Maybe it is a testament to my good qualities that she has taken so long before seeing me in that dark role.  It is hurtful though. 

The Savior role is quite ingrained so I would say an exit from this role will take a lot of conscious effort.

It is exactly right that she becomes suicidal over anyone and everyone.  Her suicide choices aren't about you. 

Crazyx used to threaten suicide all the time.  I always thought it was about me.  I always thought I could prevent it.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

And... .  your good qualities don't have anything to do with her choice not to pull this card earlier either.

So ... .  what steps can you take to work on your Savior Complex?  How can you apply "conscious effort" to changing this pattern?

turtle

[Scott44]

I can start with friends and family, making sure I'm not playing that role in those circles.  And in my next relationship, I shall chose someone not in need of saving.

[arabella]

It sounds like everything is a cause for suicide for your ex. Really, you need to detach and not take this personally. This woman is incredibly ill and her suicide threats (although this isn't even a threat so much as it's just attention-seeking drama) are a default and her way of 'coping'. It's not you - it's her.

[catsprt]

The mention of suicide is a serious accusation and I can understand how deeply hurt you may feel. Unless her accusations are supported by a written psychiatric assessment it is a matter between you and your conscience. I assume that your conscience is clear and you need to get more acquainted with the idea that you have no control on her behavior... .  Take care

[GustheDog]

I am upset and concerned to read in her divorce papers that she said she would kill herself if she stayed with me any longer.  In the past it was always her mom making her suicidal, or her brother, or her dad, or a colleague in a civic organization, or her T, etc. etc.  I was the one who saved her from wanting to commit suicide.  She always said she would be dead without me.  This is making me feel like I am no better than the other people who drove her to the edge.  I'm concerned about my self.  It appears that I have enough flaws to cause someone close to me to feel suicidal. 

Scott, my ex never spoke of suicide.  But she did diminish, complain about, claim victimization by, and generally verbally assassinate every member of her family, every previous romantic partner, every one-time close friend, and sometimes strangers in line for coffee, given the wrong look or gesture or throat-clear at the wrong time.

I saved her from all such villains, of course.  Until, eventually, it was my turn to assume the role of persecutor.

Yes, of course it's an awful, hellish thing to endure.  But I'm not surprised anymore.  Nor am I concerned that my own potential flaws are the cause of it.

You've been here for a while.  You've learned about the disorder.  Why do you think you're still blaming yourself for her disordered feelings?

[P.F.Change]

 It appears that I have enough flaws to cause someone close to me to feel suicidal.  

Hmm... .  What if other people's choices have nothing to do with whether you are "good enough?"

It's no one else's fault when she feels suicidal, though she may see it otherwise. People with BPD project and shift blame so that they can avoid facing their own selves.

The way I see it, it is  awfully conceited of you to think you are important enough to determine what happens to someone else. You think her threatening suicide is dependent on you--your "flaws" made her feel that way; you think your "good qualities" are responsible for her painting you white. Why do you need to see yourself as controlling other people?

This is another c/d trait. I think it will be helpful for you to keep working with your T on that.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[Scott44]

Thank you all for your suggestions and advice.  I will put them into paractice.