I need help

[Depression = 72% of members]

I don't know whether to post this here or on the 'leaving' board but I need help.  Part of what is going on with me is that I don't trust myself or my judgement anymore... .  and that is a very scary thing.

So long story short... .  the link below kind of has the story and it completely BUGS me that I still stuck on this after months.  I realize how disgusting that is.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=184056.msg12131187#msg12131187

Anyway, she is still friends with him - had pics of he and her husband at Christmas and the mathcing shirt she bought both of them.  She still does not speak to me except at work.

Yesterday was my birthday.  She was all over Facebook and did not write anything.  I had put a 'thanks for the birthday wishes' on my wall and she didn't thumb it up.  She saw me yesterday and did not say a word.  Same with today.  Nothing unless it was work stuff.

My SO and another friend feel like I should delete her.  

I don't know.  I never trust my judgement anymore, feel like everything I could do like that would be impulsive.  She once told me that what would prob happen between her and our BPD friend was she would just wait for him to cut her out of his life because she could never do that.  She said she's the type to just let things fizzle out so she doesn't have to end it or be confrontational.

I don't know why I am grappling with this.  Maybe it is the toxic shame.  Maybe it is that if I delete her then it is like me saying, 'two failed frienships in one year, ladies and gents... .  '

I don't know.

Advice please.

I am really bothered by this. I am too old for this.  I'm sick of feeling like a 14 year old.  I realize how ridiculous this sounds.

[sheepdog]

I don't know whether to post this here or on the 'leaving' board but I need help.  Part of what is going on with me is that I don't trust myself or my judgement anymore... .  and that is a very scary thing.

So long story short... .  the link below kind of has the story and it completely BUGS me that I still stuck on this after months.  I realize how disgusting that is.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=184056.msg12131187#msg12131187

Anyway, she is still friends with him - had pics of he and her husband at Christmas and the mathcing shirt she bought both of them.  She still does not speak to me except at work.

Yesterday was my birthday.  She was all over Facebook and did not write anything.  I had put a 'thanks for the birthday wishes' on my wall and she didn't thumb it up.  She saw me yesterday and did not say a word.  Same with today.  Nothing unless it was work stuff.

My SO and another friend feel like I should delete her.  

I don't know.  I never trust my judgement anymore, feel like everything I could do like that would be impulsive.  She once told me that what would prob happen between her and our BPD friend was she would just wait for him to cut her out of his life because she could never do that.  She said she's the type to just let things fizzle out so she doesn't have to end it or be confrontational.

I don't know why I am grappling with this.  Maybe it is the toxic shame.  Maybe it is that if I delete her then it is like me saying, 'two failed frienships in one year, ladies and gents... .  '

I don't know.

Advice please.

I am really bothered by this. I am too old for this.  I'm sick of feeling like a 14 year old.  I realize how ridiculous this sounds.

[Blazing Star]

Hi Sheepdog,

It sounds like you are feeling frustrated with yourself, and concerned about the value of your judgement.

If you went inside to the wise quiet part of you what to do, what would she say?

If this feels too hard another way to ask is have a think about someone you really admire, someone who is kind and compassionate like you, and who also puts themselves before others, who is strong, has awesome boundaries (does anyone come to mind? It doesn't even have to be someone you know, could even be a mythical figure like "The wise woman of the west", and ask what they would do.

What is it that is holding you back from trusting and following your inner wisdom?

What are you holding on to?

Love Blazing Star

[sheepdog]

Hi Blazing Star - yes, I do not trust myself anymore.  

I can't even fins my inner wisdom.  I have begun asking my SO if this or that is true/right/okay.

I don't know what I am holding on to.  Maybe that since she dropped me, it validates that it was ok for him to drop me, that I'm the crazy one, the unkind one, that I am forgettable.

I don't know

I don't know whether to delete her.  I don't know why this bothers me.  I feel like a middle school kid.

[Grey Kitty]

Do you have any idea what about it bothers you? Can you more specific thoughts or feelings about these two people?

[sheepdog]

Do you have any idea what about it bothers you? Can you more specific thoughts or feelings about these two people?

I guess it bothers me because I was always there for her (in an unhealthy, boundary-less way).  If she needed me, texted me, called me, etc. I would stop what I was doing and listen.

She knows much of what happened with he and I.  She knows how he treated me, how I allowed myself to be treated.  Yet, it seems like she took sides - and chose the mentally ill side.

He never raged at her or got physical in front of her but he was extremely rude and cold to her as well.  I feel I was never that.  I think she would say the same.

Yet, I am the one dropped and they are still friends.

I know - I sound whiny... .  

[Grey Kitty]

You sound very hurt, and upset by the unfair way you were treated. I wouldn't call you whiny.

However this being the personal inventory board, I think you need to keep looking for the parts that are inside your feelings, values, and wants if you want to make progress. 

[waitaminute]

Delete. Yes. Or let her be a fb friend to whom you pay no attention to. Generally... .  Let her go.

Find the person inside of you that has an identity independent of that past love.

[sheepdog]

You sound very hurt, and upset by the unfair way you were treated. I wouldn't call you whiny.

However this being the personal inventory board, I think you need to keep looking for the parts that are inside your feelings, values, and wants if you want to make progress. 

Thanks Grey Kitty.  I've tried, in the last several months, to remove the VICTIM from my personality.  Felt like I was sounding like a victim in the other post.

Delete. Yes. Or let her be a fb friend to whom you pay no attention to. Generally... .  Let her go.

Find the person inside of you that has an identity independent of that past love.

waitaminute - thank you.  I guess since she is not mentally ill (she has depression and ADD) that I thought I may find some closure with her.  That I could talk it out or whatever like I can't with him.  But I think you're right.

It's hard for me, though, to just have her a s a friend on Facebook.  She posts pics of her kids, who I love, and I don't ever comment or like them because she doesn't on mine.  Very junior high, I know, but I am in protection mode.  So, it just seems false to have her a s a friend when I'm never interacting with her.  But if I delete her that seems hard, too.  Because what if she wants to interact?  And that's when the pathetic circle goes around again.

[Grey Kitty]

It's hard for me, though, to just have her a s a friend on Facebook.  She posts pics of her kids, who I love, and I don't ever comment or like them because she doesn't on mine.  Very junior high, I know, but I am in protection mode.  So, it just seems false to have her a s a friend when I'm never interacting with her.  But if I delete her that seems hard, too.  Because what if she wants to interact?  And that's when the pathetic circle goes around again.

Hmmm... .  another FB option: Hide her so you don't see her postings, instead of defriending her. Not sure how much it would help you, but it is another possibility.

Overall, it sounds like you see what you are aware of the situation and dissatisfied with it. What do you want to change on your side of it?

[sheepdog]

Hi Grey Kitty - I have done that and did feel lighter, but of course I peeked... .  

I'm very dissatisfied by it.  And by the fact that I do not trust my own judgement anymore.

[HarmKrakow]

Hi Grey Kitty - I have done that and did feel lighter, but of course I peeked... .  

I'm very dissatisfied by it.  And by the fact that I do not trust my own judgement anymore.

It's one step closer to full time deleting. What would it make you to fully delete the person from facebook? Like for real? What would it take? A new relationship? A new job? A new goal in life? A new partner? What would it take? As I struggle with the same issue, I need to delete her of my life but I can't and then I start wondering, what would it take TO DO SO!

[sheepdog]

Hi Grey Kitty - I have done that and did feel lighter, but of course I peeked... .  

I'm very dissatisfied by it.  And by the fact that I do not trust my own judgement anymore.

It's one step closer to full time deleting. What would it make you to fully delete the person from facebook? Like for real? What would it take? A new relationship? A new job? A new goal in life? A new partner? What would it take? As I struggle with the same issue, I need to delete her of my life but I can't and then I start wondering, what would it take TO DO SO!

harmkrakow - well she is not the one with BPD.  She was his other best friend.  She and I had been through it all with him.  When he and I stopped being friends, she stopped talking to me and has stuck with him - even knowing all that she knows.  So it is a little different.

He quit his job at my workplace but she still works there.  And since I have to see her every day, I guess that is why one of the reasons I haven't deleted her.  That and I keep thinking she will 'come around... .  '.

Is the 'she' you refer to above your ex?

[HarmKrakow]

Hi Grey Kitty - I have done that and did feel lighter, but of course I peeked... .  

I'm very dissatisfied by it.  And by the fact that I do not trust my own judgement anymore.

It's one step closer to full time deleting. What would it make you to fully delete the person from facebook? Like for real? What would it take? A new relationship? A new job? A new goal in life? A new partner? What would it take? As I struggle with the same issue, I need to delete her of my life but I can't and then I start wondering, what would it take TO DO SO!

harmkrakow - well she is not the one with BPD.  She was his other best friend.  She and I had been through it all with him.  When he and I stopped being friends, she stopped talking to me and has stuck with him - even knowing all that she knows.  So it is a little different.

He quit his job at my workplace but she still works there.  And since I have to see her every day, I guess that is why one of the reasons I haven't deleted her.  That and I keep thinking she will 'come around... .  '.

Is the 'she' you refer to above your ex?

What I mostly meant as for you to detach or move on, it would seem like you would need to make a decision. I know more than enough people in life who in your situation would be cutting of the facebook link. Why keep her? Because she is at your work? If she wasn't would you have cut it of? Why have someone on your facebook if you don't talk with her, chat with her and only feel anxious by looking at her page?

[sheepdog]

harmkrakow - I totally agree.  My SO has said the same thing.

It is a very good question you both pose.

My therapist said it is fine to 'like' a pic of her children or whatever but for now, seeing that she is still very close with him (BPD) to not engage.    She said it would be very unhealthy.  She said that she may come around when it all implodes with her and him.  But that may never happen.  They have a very different friendship than what we had.

I guess it would be awkward to work in the same building, on the same floor, to pass her office and to have deleted her.  And that little hope that she will one day, "sheepdog, he is such an idiot.  I'm sorry I dropped you and kept him in my life."  I just can not wrap my mind around the fact that after giving so much and going through so much, we don't speak.

When I talk to my SO about it he says, "You're already not friends."

But deleting her would be admitting that another person has dropped me when I'm not needed anymore.

She did come up to me the other day.  She told me that her daughter had been stadning next to her when she had put some hand cream on.  Her daughter said, "Oooh, Mommy, you smell good just like Miss sheepdog."  And she said she went, "Huh?"  And her daughter smelled the lotion and said, "Yup, just like Miss Sheepdog."  She came up to me at work and told me that and I was like 'huh, isn't that funny... .  '

Things like that make me think she wants to talk but doesn't know how.

Or it could just mean that we use the same hand lotion... .  

[HarmKrakow]

harmkrakow - I totally agree.  My SO has said the same thing.

It is a very good question you both pose.

My therapist said it is fine to 'like' a pic of her children or whatever but for now, seeing that she is still very close with him (BPD) to not engage.    She said it would be very unhealthy.  She said that she may come around when it all implodes with her and him.  But that may never happen.  They have a very different friendship than what we had.

I guess it would be awkward to work in the same building, on the same floor, to pass her office and to have deleted her.  And that little hope that she will one day, "sheepdog, he is such an idiot.  I'm sorry I dropped you and kept him in my life."  I just can not wrap my mind around the fact that after giving so much and going through so much, we don't speak.

we are talking about social media. Give or take 10 years ago that question would not have arised, so why make it a trouble now?

You think she cares? And if so, so what?

When I talk to my SO about it he says, "You're already not friends."

But deleting her would be admitting that another person has dropped me when I'm not needed anymore.

She did come up to me the other day.  She told me that her daughter had been stadning next to her when she had put some hand cream on.  Her daughter said, "Oooh, Mommy, you smell good just like Miss sheepdog."  And she said she went, "Huh?"  And her daughter smelled the lotion and said, "Yup, just like Miss Sheepdog."  She came up to me at work and told me that and I was like 'huh, isn't that funny... .  '

Things like that make me think she wants to talk but doesn't know how.

Or it could just mean that we use the same hand lotion... .  

To me it sounds like pulling a dead horse. Costs a lot of energy but your not moving together. Best thing you can do is let go of a dead horse.

[sheepdog]

Because in my codependent, messed-up mind, if I delete her then I am mean. 

[OTH]

Because in my codependent, messed-up mind, if I delete her then I am mean. 

Your problems aren't about your friend. They are about you. Own your problems. What are you doing to work on your codependent issues?

[sheepdog]

I'm doing a lot.  Therapy.  Reading Codependent No More.  Challenging myself.

I know the problems are not my friend.  I am acknowledging that they are my problem.  However, I am wary of my judgement.  I don't know whether to delete her or not.  Not because of her.  Because of ME.

I am super conscious of not doing the right thing because I don't know what the right thing is anymore.

And yeah, the mean factor... .  

[Grey Kitty]

Sheepdog, let me help you with a different take on this question, looking at a "worst case" version:

If you were to defriend her on FB, and she noticed and then decided that you were a mean b*tch and that she hated your guts and told you so... .  

How would you feel about it?

[Grey Kitty]

Scenario #2:

Telling her that her siding with your ex has you feeling betrayed and you just can't handle that right now, and need a break from being with her.

How does that one feel?

[AnotherPhoenix]

 

Hi Sheepdog,

I know the problems are not my friend. 

Hmm. It sounds like she attacked you in her messages even though you were extremely nice to her. To me, it sounds like the cause of "your problem" is how this person treated you. If she didn't do that, you wouldn't have this problem.

I am acknowledging that they are my problem.  However, I am wary of my judgement.  I don't know whether to delete her or not.  Not because of her.  Because of ME.

I am super conscious of not doing the right thing because I don't know what the right thing is anymore.

What do you want to do? That sounds like the $1,000,000 question. What are your goals regarding this issue?

And yeah, the mean factor... .  

This sounds a lot like the guilt factor in the FOG that bullies like to do to us so that we will keep allowing them to mistreat us.

If you have to set a boundary to protect yourself, that's not being mean to them. It's protecting yourself. You and your feelings come first. If it bothers her, that's her problem.

Have a nice week,

AnotherPheonix     

[sheepdog]

Sheepdog, let me help you with a different take on this question, looking at a "worst case" version:

If you were to defriend her on FB, and she noticed and then decided that you were a mean b*tch and that she hated your guts and told you so... .  

How would you feel about it?

She would never do that.  She is extremely nonconfrontational though most people at work are afraid of her because she is negative and cold.  But if she was confrontational then I guess I would feel bad but what can you do?

Scenario #2:

Telling her that her siding with your ex has you feeling betrayed and you just can't handle that right now, and need a break from being with her.

How does that one feel?

It wasn't my ex.  He was both of our best friends.  She is still friends with him.

It's what I'd like to say but reading it in your post makes it sound... .  vulnerable?  Pathetic?

Thank you for giving me things to think about!

What do you want to do? That sounds like the $1,000,000 question. What are your goals regarding this issue?


This sounds a lot like the guilt factor in the FOG that bullies like to do to us so that we will keep allowing them to mistreat us.

Thank you as well, AnotherPhoenix.

I want to do what a normal, non-codependent, right-in-their-head person would do.  Except, I don't know what this is... .     

I have a lot of guilt.  In every aspect of my life.

[HarmKrakow]

Sheepdog, let me help you with a different take on this question, looking at a "worst case" version:

Thank you as well, AnotherPhoenix.

I want to do what a normal, non-codependent, right-in-their-head person would do.  Except, I don't know what this is... .     

I have a lot of guilt.  In every aspect of my life.

I think deep down yourself you KNOW exactly what this is. I mean that.

I don't want to live, I keep whining about my issues, I keep drowning in self pity and complain about life, but hey, I got a job, got a house, ok, let myself in with a BPD, my fault, but other than that I shouldnt complain. I keep whining about no energy. And yes, seriously, I don't have the energy. I hate life, I could throw myself away right now and keep complaining, boohoo don't know what to do.

In the end, we know exactly what to do, and we know exactly how it is to feel good, however the fog we got ourselves into due to all this mental ~ it's not that easy.

A normal sane non-codependent person would take a step back from the BPD relationship, or any disfuctional relationship. Would take a look at it, realize it was toxic, not healthy. Then would cut of the unhealthy parts, would also cut of the communication parts which costs energy and don't gain energy while in the mean time going to bed early, sleep good, take good care of themselves, eat fruits/veggies and sport. In regards of relaxation they will try to think of something new, life hasn't ended yet, it's simply turning a new page in life.

You know what you need, the question should be more, how are we going to get you (and others) convinced going there. Because deep down yourself it IS there.

[AnotherPhoenix]

 Sheepdog,

Thank you as well, AnotherPhoenix.

I want to do what a normal, non-codependent, right-in-their-head person would do.  Except, I don't know what this is... .     huh

I have a lot of guilt.  In every aspect of my life.

I understand.

I'm glad you are seeing your therapist again. She will help you with the guilt part. What my therapist told me was to just drop the guilt. I'm doing and have done the best I can, as you have, and what is done is done. What is important is the present.

As for what to do, Grey Kitty has given you some good ideas, and Blazing Star's idea also sounds excellent. I use an approach like this when I'm really stumped or stuck:

If you went inside to the wise quiet part of you what to do, what would she say?

If this feels too hard another way to ask is have a think about someone you really admire, someone who is kind and compassionate like you, and who also puts themselves before others, who is strong, has awesome boundaries (does anyone come to mind? It doesn't even have to be someone you know, could even be a mythical figure like "The wise woman of the west", and ask what they would do.

These other questions of hers are also useful to becoming less codependent:

What is it that is holding you back from trusting and following your inner wisdom?

What are you holding on to?

You are doing well on working on yourself and progressing away from codependence!

AnotherPheonix   

[Grey Kitty]

Thank you for giving me things to think about!

You are welcome. I just realized where I was trying to lead you--toward thinking about what it is that you are afraid of.

I've noticed that in myself, if I let my fears drive my actions, I do things that make for a less happy Grey Kitty (and it usually isn't good for the people around me either).

Other times, I look straight in the eyes of what I'm afraid of, ask myself how bad it really would be were it to actually happen... .  and realize that I've got other things that are far more important to me than my fears. Then when I act based on those values I'm much happier with myself.

I hope this helps you figure out where you want to go. And whups about getting confused on details... .  I think my questions still got you thinking at least.

[sheepdog]

Sheepdog, let me help you with a different take on this question, looking at a "worst case" version:

Thank you as well, AnotherPhoenix.

I want to do what a normal, non-codependent, right-in-their-head person would do.  Except, I don't know what this is... .       

I have a lot of guilt.  In every aspect of my life.

I think deep down yourself you KNOW exactly what this is. I mean that.

I don't want to live, I keep whining about my issues, I keep drowning in self pity and complain about life, but hey, I got a job, got a house, ok, let myself in with a BPD, my fault, but other than that I shouldnt complain. I keep whining about no energy. And yes, seriously, I don't have the energy. I hate life, I could throw myself away right now and keep complaining, boohoo don't know what to do.

In the end, we know exactly what to do, and we know exactly how it is to feel good, however the fog we got ourselves into due to all this mental ~ it's not that easy.

A normal sane non-codependent person would take a step back from the BPD relationship, or any disfuctional relationship. Would take a look at it, realize it was toxic, not healthy. Then would cut of the unhealthy parts, would also cut of the communication parts which costs energy and don't gain energy while in the mean time going to bed early, sleep good, take good care of themselves, eat fruits/veggies and sport. In regards of relaxation they will try to think of something new, life hasn't ended yet, it's simply turning a new page in life.

You know what you need, the question should be more, how are we going to get you (and others) convinced going there. Because deep down yourself it IS there.

harmkrakow - you're right.  I think I do know what I need to do.  I feel in my gut to delete her.  She has had ampleopportunity to try to talk about it and hasn't.  She just posted on Facebook a bunch of pics of her family Easter with him sitting right next to her kids coloring Easter eggs. 

But it is complicated and it is tied up in my toxic shame and other things.  I just keep on going round and round.

Sheepdog,

Thank you as well, AnotherPhoenix.

I want to do what a normal, non-codependent, right-in-their-head person would do.  Except, I don't know what this is... .        huh

I have a lot of guilt.  In every aspect of my life.

I understand.

I'm glad you are seeing your therapist again. She will help you with the guilt part. What my therapist told me was to just drop the guilt. I'm doing and have done the best I can, as you have, and what is done is done. What is important is the present.

As for what to do, Grey Kitty has given you some good ideas, and Blazing Star's idea also sounds excellent. I use an approach like this when I'm really stumped or stuck:

If you went inside to the wise quiet part of you what to do, what would she say?

If this feels too hard another way to ask is have a think about someone you really admire, someone who is kind and compassionate like you, and who also puts themselves before others, who is strong, has awesome boundaries (does anyone come to mind? It doesn't even have to be someone you know, could even be a mythical figure like "The wise woman of the west", and ask what they would do.

These other questions of hers are also useful to becoming less codependent:

What is it that is holding you back from trusting and following your inner wisdom?

What are you holding on to?

You are doing well on working on yourself and progressing away from codependence!

AnotherPheonix   

AnotherPhoenix - I wish I could just drop the guilt.  The shame and self-loathing is so intense.  I don't think I can let it go.  My therapist has tried to talk to me about forgiveness, God, etc. but right now - I just feel so bad.  The shame permeates everything I do.

Thank you for giving me things to think about!

You are welcome. I just realized where I was trying to lead you--toward thinking about what it is that you are afraid of.

I've noticed that in myself, if I let my fears drive my actions, I do things that make for a less happy Grey Kitty (and it usually isn't good for the people around me either).

Other times, I look straight in the eyes of what I'm afraid of, ask myself how bad it really would be were it to actually happen... .     and realize that I've got other things that are far more important to me than my fears. Then when I act based on those values I'm much happier with myself.

I hope this helps you figure out where you want to go. And whups about getting confused on details... .     I think my questions still got you thinking at least.

GreyKitty - I do know what I am afraid of.  And it brings such shame to me that I have not even posted it on this forum.  I feel that afraid.

I am going to seriously contemplate that - I do let my fears drive my actions recently.  I feel I have no other choice.

[Grey Kitty]

GreyKitty - I do know what I am afraid of.  And it brings such shame to me that I have not even posted it on this forum.  I feel that afraid.

I am going to seriously contemplate that - I do let my fears drive my actions recently.  I feel I have no other choice.

 Wow. I'm impressed that you are able to admit even this much. 

I've got an image in my mind right now... .   fear can make me freeze instead of running, but here's my image anyhow. When I was a child, we gave the family dog a flea dip once. It was pretty stinky stuff. The poor dog tried to run away from his own smell after that. And whenever he stopped, it caught up with him. The running (obviously) didn't help!

Good luck with your contemplations. I gotta say that sometimes the absolutely WORST thing about life is discovering that the hard way is the only one that works in cases like this.

[AnotherPhoenix]

Sheepdog,

GreyKitty made a good point. It is good that you admitted as much as you did.

1,000 pats on your back! Good going!

AnotherPhoenix - I wish I could just drop the guilt.  The shame and self-loathing is so intense.  I don't think I can let it go.  My therapist has tried to talk to me about forgiveness, God, etc. but right now - I just feel so bad.  The shame permeates everything I do.

Why not just drop the guilt and shame?

Is there something you fear will happen if you just dropped the guilt and/or shame?

Is there something that you don't want to lose?

What are you fighting for? What are you clinging to?

AnotherPheonix 

[Clearmind]

Guilt = I've done something wrong/made a mistake

Shame = There is something wrong with me/I am no good.

To relinquish guilt we feel the need to correct it – make contact with our friend/partner/whom ever to make amends or make it right because we feel we did something wrong. We take on all the blame for a friendship that has faltered.

If we are not in contact with them or they refuse contact with us – we cannot relinquish the guilt. We feel helpless, worthless and depressed – shame based.

These thoughts of worthless-ness are self defeating - it creates an imbalance.

It’s easier and safer to process this loss on an emotional level – continue with our self defeating thoughts – we already feel worthless so let’s break ourselves down even more – our self fulfilling prophecy becomes realized and creates a cycle of suffering.

To step out of the cycle - If we were to use Mindfulness and Wise Mind – begin to collect some data on how our relationship with our BPD friend/partner was in reality we can begin to process the loss a little more clearly – seek the truth. This will lead to acceptance – Acceptance is not possible if you remain in your emotional mind.

SD, what does friendship mean to you?

What mindfulness techniques can you use to balance your emotions?

[sheepdog]

Grey Kitty, AnotherPhoenix, Clearmind

Thank you.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=198423.new#new

A lot of it is in the post above.

I am sorry.