DILEMMA Choosing a lawyer

[atcrossroads]

Hi all,

I REALLY need some advice on choosing an attorney and feel like a fish out of water dealing with legal issues because I've never had to do so.

My uBPD (w/NPD traits) husband and I are mid-forties, no children (a blessing!), and together about a decade.  We've been separated 6 months (about half of that in house - guest room).

I moved out (am in a ROOM at my parents!) and he is in our house and is VERY COMFORTABLE.  We both love the house and feel rather sentimentally toward it, as it's an older house on beautiful property that we've put some work into.  I know he doesn't want to move out, and his mother even told me he was bemoaning that he could not buy me out and stay in the house.  Um... .   what makes you think I'm not missing the house too?  Anyway... .  

We work at same place and make comparable salaries. We "agreed" during talks of divorce (while I was still there) that the house would be sold and profit split (we're talking between $20-50K max).  My name is on mortgage, and I dutifully paid HALF of all bills since I moved out (mortgage, power, gas, cable - this month I cut out paying cable; he told me he cut it off).

This should be an easy, cheap, uncontested divorce.  But... .   my biggest fear is that husband will drag out house sale and even potentially stall the selling of house by not cooperating with realtor, etc.  He has been completely cruel, irrational, and even delusional since I left.  All our communications have been via email.  Before I left he told me "I WILL be vindictive!" and "You know I'm going to make you suffer.  I'm not going to make this easy for you."  He indicated, too, that he wanted to hurt me financially.  

Last year he melted down at work and was nearly checked into inpatient -- he wanted to sue our place of work and was rabidly litiguous; he has always said, "All I need is one good lawsuit, and I'll be set for life."  He didn't have a leg to stand on legally, and his threats last year came to nothing.  He is still employed there and is viewed as a high maintenance employee (ya think?).

So, while I want an uncontested divorce, I believe we will have to go to court... .   just b/c my husband may be difficult for the sake of being difficult.  He has nothing really to get from me, but he will likely be a jerk about it.  I met with a young attorney (around 30, I'd say), new in practice (5-6 years) on Friday.  He offers free 30 minute consultations.  He seems competent, caring, and professional.  I explained about my husband (BPD (w/NPD traits)), and he said he has experience with high conflict personalities in divorce cases, but always when there was custody issues - people who will not agree to anything and want to drag everything out.  He seemed to understand how to approach it and suggested being assertive but not too aggressive as that would back my husband in a corner.  As he said, we just want him to come to the table now and agree to an uncontested and agree to terms.  We don't want to trigger him to attack.  Very insightful, I thought.  He had a lot of comments on the house issue too and how I cannot be taken advantage of... .   that will come after the first papers are served.

I retained him to write up the separation papers and meet with him tomorrow to go over.  I came home and read through "Splitting... .   " again, and his approach seems to jive with it.  Also, we met at end of day Friday, and my free 30 min consultation lasted 1.5 hours.  He was very thorough.

Meanwhile, I have another appt tomorrow with different attorney -- I have a friend who has used him in her divorce case -- very complicated, there are criminal charges (husband was physically abusive), and she was seeking sole custody.  This attorney has a very good reputation - he is caring/assertive as well (NOT a bull-dog approach), but he is more expensive.  $200 just for the consult and then an automatic $3K retainer.  

I am thinking of canceling my appt tomorrow.  I felt very comfortable with the attorney Friday.  He was young, yes, but he seemed competent and laid out a reasonable sounding strategy.  He did not strike me as simply a money hungry lawyer who wanted to drag it out -- he stated that our goal should be to get my husband to agree to go uncontested.  My husband is his own worst enemy, and I'm hoping/praying he'll be reasonable and realize that going to court will not benefit him (he somehow thinks he's going to make money off me - and charge me for stupid things like how much yard work he's done over years, etc.).

I would think my husband's attorney (which he "claims" to have) would advice him to go uncontested.  It should be simple:  put house on market within next 6 weeks, he stays there and has "possession" while house is on market, he acts cooperatively with realtor (uses lock box, keeps house ready to show, etc).  House will sell unless husband sabotages (desirable neighborhood, nice property, etc.).  Split profit, split belongings.  :)ivorce.  The end.

Should I stick with my guy from Friday (who I already retained) or go with the guy with more known experience.  I'm on verge of canceling the appt with 2nd more expensive/experienced guy tomorrow... .    -- got a very good feeling from guy Friday but wondering if I'm being naive and should go for someone with more years experience.  I mean, it's not that complicated really, I just want someone sharp enough to not put up with my husband's BS.  

I'm trying to listen to my gut - not sure what it's saying though!  On one hand, I feel guy Fri has a good handle on it.  On other hand, should I talk to someone else?

Thoughts?  Advice?  Anything will be welcome... .   especially from those who have been through this. I feel in a real quandry and if I'm canceling tomorrow, need to call soon.  What would you do?

THANK YOU!

[rogerroger]

I'll simply pass on some advice I received. Make of it what you will.

If you are going to need a lawyer, it is better to pay more for a good one than less for a bad one. Try to find one who is a member of the American Association of Matrimonial Lawyers (you can search using their website at www.aaml.org/find-a-lawyer).

[ForeverDad]

There is no harm in getting additional perspective, advice and insight.  I always write, with education and insight you can make more informed and more confident decisions.  Also, some members have commented that if you've had a consultation with an attorney, then your spouse can't use that one since you've shared potentially confidential information.  While there are many attorneys out there, do you want your spouse to be able to pick that potentially good one?

Any agreement, settlement or judge's decision must be clear and sufficiently detailed - not an invitation for re-interpretation - and have reasonable but well-defined consequences.  As in, if this doesn't happen, then... .   if that doesn't happen, then... .   if that still doesn't happen, then... .  

For example, coffee shop has posts here where her ex wanted to keep and refinance the family home.  He apparently doesn't work much and had 90 days to refinance.  Well, no surprise, he didn't.  Not only that, after two months he stopped paying the mortgage which was in our member's name.  Problem was, there were no consequences for failure listed in the settlement.  She's been back to court at least twice and her ex keeps making promises and getting additional time.  I think he's squeezed out 6 months so far, well past the original 90 days and thus causing her additional legal expenses.  Eventually the court will put its foot down, lightly, but if only her lawyer had been on the ball perhaps some consequences with teeth could have been built into the settlement.  Maybe something like, if ex didn't get refinancing in 90 days or stopped paying the mortgage then he would lose possession and have 30 days to vacate, that for every month he didn't vacate then he would lose $XXXX of any equity, clean-up costs would be deducted from his portion of equity, etc.  Yes, he could have still delayed things in court, but at least the consequences would have been spelled out in black and white already for the judge to rule upon, the judge wouldn't have been left without a guide as to what to rule.

Judges generally are very reluctant to make one parent or spouse appear to win or look good and the other to lose or look bad.  They hope eventually the parties will settle and never come back again.  So the result is they try to avoid setting or enforcing consequences and are more than willing to delay consequences.  Also, similar to enforcing consequences, they're slow to give credit to the parent or spouse who is behaving properly.  And the high conflict parent or spouse forces the case to keep coming back to court.

Another example, JDoe had a spouse who wanted to be the one to sell the house and also live in the house until it sold and the equity split.  You can guess what happened... .   9 months have passed and the house still hasn't sold.  And predictably court is not seeing this as an urgent issue despite her not getting her equity from the divorce settlement.  (Actually, the fact that she still hasn't gotten her home equity from the divorce may be her only leverage left to get eventual court action.)

[momtara]

The one you met with already seems to know how to tread regarding this kind of case, and you got a good feeling, so I'd go with him.  However, I think it may be worth it to meet the other one and get some insight and be aware of any pitfalls, as long as he doesn't force you to pay the retainer right there.  You can probably take a copy of the agreement and walk away with it and ponder it.

Seems like you can start off with the first guy and then if he screws up or seems over his head, go to the other one.

A $3k retainer is at the low end where I live, but it's still steep.

I am also in my 40s and new at this.  We live in an apt., but I love old houses.  I understand how you feel.

We have kids, so it's more complicated.

[atcrossroads]

Argh! Just posted a lengthy thank you and response and I was apparently not signed in, so POOF, it's gone.

Thank you all - will update later but will quickly say I did keep the appt tomorrow with guy #2.

More later... .  

Thank you all!

[real lady]

((atacrossroads)) I just "caught up" with your thread and have a few thoughts. A lawyer, if decent, will do what you want them to do and give you advice for a "normal divorce". Let your attorney know of the boundaries that you need to set for yourself, how you expect him/her to NOT encourage more communication than needed with your soon to be exBPDh and continue NOT LETTING his threats, etc. "get to you"

When I divorced my son's father, he threatened to "fight for custody" of him unless I had declined child support which my lawyer informed me that the state that I live in would NOT turn down for my son and so I just told him that I would "only do what my lawyer suggested" and then made it "my lawyers fault" for what I needed, etc. My ex, continued to email my lawyer, to try to get him to make me change my mind, etc even LONG AFTER the divorce and his remarriage. He committed bigamy because he was "lonely".

Anyway, just "wrap it up tight with pretty bow on top" and let him deal with it. Don't give in where you do NOT have to. I let go of alimony, I didn't need it... .   for half of my pension, he didn't deserve it. Looking forward to hear how your meeting went... .   good luck hon.

[momtara]

Good advice, real lady!  (I am hoping my husband will trade some of his visitation for less child support... .   )

I just posted something about choosing lawyers too.  Such a complex dilemma!  Glad you guys are giving such good advice... .  

[atcrossroads]

Real lady, I just "caught up" on some of your threads too -- boy, are our circumstances similar!

I just tried to send Momtara and Reallady a copy of notes I made today from the book Splitting but then realized I couldn't attach a word document.  I will copy it here instead in case it might be helpful to anyone.  I highly recommend reading this book!  I will let everyone know what the attorneys say tomorrow.  Thank you!   

Divorce Case:  xxx                               

Information from Splitting:  Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy, LCSW, JD and Randi Kreger, BPD expert and author

1.   “Tell your attorney about everything that might be relevant to your case, and don’t be offended if much of it is irrelevant.  Sometimes one little insignificant piece of information opens up a valuable new area of inquiry” (pg. 149)  *See below!

2.   My husband told me on xx that he is having an attorney draw up a statement for my review.  *This comment indicates to me that he wants to settle out of court to save money.  However, he has also said (the same day in email) that taking me to court would be “best money I’ve ever spent,” indicating his belief that he will make money somehow making this a contested divorce.  He is irrational, so I want to be fully prepared to go to court.

3.   Attorneys in cases dealing with personality disordered individuals should be ASSERTIVE – not passive, not aggressive but ASSERTIVE.

4.   Copy important records  *I have copied most of them

5.   Write down accurate details of problems and events that could become issues in a contested divorce.  Information written the day of the event is more credible than information written later.

*I have detailed notes of specific behaviors, conflicts, and statements he has made to me over the years, written the day of the event.

6.   Save all email correspondences.  *I have all email correspondences since separation, many of them are hateful, vindictive, and irrational.

7.   Communicate respectfully, as anything can be introduced in court

8.   Emails should be BIFF:  brief, informative, friendly, and firm.  Avoid the 3 A’s (Admonishments, Advice, and Apologies) (pg. 82-87).  *I have been reasonable and kind in all my emails.

9.   Indicate that you wish to settle out of court but be prepared for realistic possibility of court  *PD spouses may go for out of court settlement if they can feel that they are “winning” – saving money and the terms are reasonable to them.  “The more you are prepared for a court battle, the less likely you are to have one” (pg. 106).

10.   Allow spouse time when presenting information since he will overreact at first.  (ex.  Next week my attorney will send you some papers about child support.  Take your time to think about it and let me know if you think we can reach agreement before the hearing.  Then the hearing will not be necessary” (pg. 82).

11.   Hire attorney with good communication skills; prepare with him for predictable crises and accusations and educate them on BPD (w/NPD traits) patterns.  Attorney should be skilled in negotiation and settlement out of court but should have strong courtroom skills if case indeed goes to court. 

12.   Give clear messages and deadlines, or your spouse and his attorney will walk all over you.  Every proposal, request, or question requires a deadline.  Document when deadlines are broken (pg. 82).  (“Two weeks ago my attorney sent you a letter proposing hit.  Since we have not heard back, we will file for trial in 5 days.  I hope to hear from you before then so court won’t be necessary.”)

13.   Depositions can be effective because PD spouse tend to be emotional, exaggerate, lie, and contradict themselves; he will often feel confident and spin his side of the story which can be questioned and shown to the judge later as evidence of distorted views.

14.   Delete FB or any other publically accessible social networking site.  Keep all passwords secure.  *I deactivated my FB  

15.   Be ASSERTIVE but not AGGRESSIVE.  Do NOT be PASSIVE or afraid to bring things up in court.  *Any false information (“smear campaign”) presented to court needs a written correction to protect self now and in future

16.   Responding quickly to aggressive assertions or falsehoods in court will usually cause the BPD and his attorney to slow down or stop attacking behavior.  It encourages them to back off.

17.    Expose blamer behavior in court.  Need to find a way and be careful about how you explain spouse’s behavior PATTERNS to court. 

18.   PD spouse and attorney tend to be overconfident and attempt to surprise with allegations in court (“smear campaign”).  Expect this behavior and get a copy of every court transcript at each hearing.  Expose any lies or inconsistencies immediately.

19.   CONSIDER ALTERNATIVES TO LITIGATION- this may keep spouse calmer and less defensive and less prone to attack. * I am hopeful (skeptically so) that he will go for this.

20.   CALM – can save time, $$, and stress/anxiety for both partners

21.   NEVER tell spouse you suspect a PD –  IN or OUT of court.  It will be huge trigger that will bring out defensiveness and retaliation

Information about my husband that may (or may not be!) pertinent:

o   Is high-functioning undiagnosed borderline/narcissistic personality disordered individual (BPD (w/NPD traits))

o   Is extremely intelligent but also very angry

o   Can present as very “normal”  (There is a Jekyll/Hyde or dual persona aspect to personality disordered individuals – public vs. private persona is often different)

o   Feels abandoned (BPD characteristic), which is fueling animosity towards me

o   Has split me “black” (BPD thinking – splitting people into all good or all bad)

o   Has informed me he will be vindictive and has told me he wants me to suffer (implied financially)

o   Is currently emotionally dysregulated and irrational

o   Has a health condition which he is currently not monitoring (self-destructive)

o   Smokes marijuana daily and spends hundreds of dollars a month on it

o   Told me before I left that he believed I was trying to kill him

o   Claimed in a rage that he was going to purchase a weapon to protect himself from me

o   Has threatened (but never attempted) suicide numerous times *I have phone messages from 18 months ago from his parents, begging me to get him into inpatient help because they were afraid he was suicidal

o   Informed me and my parents (me in person, my parents via email) that I am “mentally unstable” and need help

o   Is very litigation-minded.  He has often planned lawsuits against people and institutions for unfounded “wrongs” but never followed through.  He believes the court is a place to make $$

o   Had affairs online, claiming I was not a supportive enough wife as justification   *I have copies of the correspondences.

o   Has accused me of having affairs

o   A psychiatrist who saw him told me privately that she suspected BPD (w/NPD traits).  His counselor told me he has personality disorder and told me “You did the right thing” after I left him.

o   Does not want to move from our house *Getting the house on market and having him cooperate with showings, etc. I believe will be where he puts up biggest resistance.

o   May claim any  of the following (and more) about me:  I am “addicted” to sleep meds which have impaired my mental ability.  I remember everything falsely and/or forget everything.  * I do in fact take sleep meds and was put on antidepressants (low dose) recently I am doing very well on it.  I do tend toward being forgetful (have been my whole life), but in no way do I abuse any of my prescribed medications.  Fortunately, I have documented conflicts in writing immediately after they occur.  Also, friends, family (mine and his), coworkers have witnessed his erratic behavior.


HOUSE— get house on market and sold in a timely matter.

➢   Request written list of needed repairs

➢   No repairs or money/labor invested in house without knowledge/consent of both spouses  *I fear he is “doing repairs” without my knowledge with intent to “charge” me later.

➢   Realtor chosen by hit__ date

➢   Must allow house to be shown upon realtor’s request

➢   Communicate with realtor in a timely manner

➢   Provide realtor with a lockbox so he/she can show house when not home

➢   Vacate premises during a showing so potential buyers will feel more comfortable

➢   Excess clutter/furniture will be removed from house and walls

[lockedout]

It wouldn't hurt to have a second look at another attorney; you don't necessarily have to hire him but you can bounce the other attorney's strategy off him to make sure it's not out there. They tend not to raid each others' business so he's not likely to bash the other and try to convince you to sign with him. If he's the bigshot in town, your ex can never hire him once you've had ex-parte communications with him.

Right now all you're trying to do is to convince your STBX to do is to accept a reasonable offer and open the door to what he feels may be reasonable. If he decides not to play nice and you end up in court, you can hire the big guns later.

[atcrossroads]

If you are going to need a lawyer, it is better to pay more for a good one than less for a bad one. Try to find one who is a member of the American Association of Matrimonial Lawyers (you can search using their website at www.aaml.org/find-a-lawyer).

Roger, I hope it's not a bad sign, but neither attorney is on this list.  Hmm... .  

Another example, JDoe had a spouse who wanted to be the one to sell the house and also live in the house until it sold and the equity split.  You can guess what happened... .   9 months have passed and the house still hasn't sold.  And predictably court is not seeing this as an urgent issue despite her not getting her equity from the divorce settlement.  (Actually, the fact that she still hasn't gotten her home equity from the divorce may be her only leverage left to get eventual court action.)

Foreverdad, thanks for the thorough advice.  I just went back and read JDoe's experience, and I must say, it's my worst nightmare.  I think husband would be content to stay in the house (preferably with me paying half) until he grows moss. 

Seems like you can start off with the first guy and then if he screws up or seems over his head, go to the other one.

Anyway, just "wrap it up tight with pretty bow on top" and let him deal with it. Don't give in where you do NOT have to. I let go of alimony, I didn't need it... .   for half of my pension, he didn't deserve it. Looking forward to hear how your meeting went... .   good luck hon.

Momtara and Real Lady- this is going to be my plan.  It just makes sense.  I know I will have to compromise some, but I just hope not to get screwed.  Thanks!   

Insert Quote

It wouldn't hurt to have a second look at another attorney; you don't necessarily have to hire him but you can bounce the other attorney's strategy off him to make sure it's not out there. They tend not to raid each others' business so he's not likely to bash the other and try to convince you to sign with him. If he's the bigshot in town, your ex can never hire him once you've had ex-parte communications with him.

Lockedout, again what you say just makes good sense to get a second opinion. 

I will post an update after both my appointments tomorrow.  You guys are invaluable, and I'm so grateful to have this forum and such awesome people to discuss this stuff with.  Thank you!

[AnotherPhoenix]

Atcrossroads,

Please see my recent post about L's on MomTara's thread on getting a new L.

I see you have the book splitting--great! I suggest you get a second one and give it to you new L, whoever it winds up being.

ForeverDad and others have given some great advice about getting additional opinions.

I think the most important thing for that I posted on MomTara's thread is this:

There are also lots of older threads on this forum about selecting and working with Ls might be useful to you. Please hunt for them. They have a lot of great information!

Keep letting us know how things are going.

AnotherPheonix 

[atcrossroads]

AnotherPhoenix,

I just read that - fantastic and thanks!

I am going to go a-searching now for some of those older threads.  I appreciate the advice very much   

ACR

[AnotherPhoenix]

ACR,

You are very welcome! 

Please let us know how its going,

AnotherPheonix 

[real lady]

Momtara and Real Lady- this is going to be my plan.  It just makes sense.  I know I will have to compromise some, but I just hope not to get screwed.  Thanks.   

I think that my view of my situation helped me alot. I KNEW that he would try to "screw me" in ANY WAY that I allowed him. I did not allow him. When YOUR STBXUBPDH "wants" something from YOU, USE THAT as a fulcrum to KEEP OR PRESERVE what you feel that he is trying to screw you out of.   Love your excerpt from Splitting. Thanks. I will have to read it... .  

[atcrossroads]

Good advice, real lady.  It seems smart to use something that he feels he wants --I think he wants more power over house, etc. so I'm offering him "possession," while house is for sale but want to put limits and guidelines to insure he shows it and doesn't sabotage the sale.

CURRENT DILEMMA -- What all (how much and HOW) do I disclose to attorney I'm seeing in an hour about the attorney I retained Friday who is drawing a separation agreement (which I'll be looking over in an appt later today)?

Is it best to just tell him that up front and tell him I wanted to compare approaches, experiences?

I feel dumb about it all, frankly!

[ForeverDad]

I added one more item to the house list.  Remember, if you can get any agreement to include the consequences and "what to do next", then a judge is more likely to rubberstamp the enforcement actions.

HOUSE— get house on market and sold in a timely matter.

➢   Request written list of needed repairs

➢   No repairs or money/labor invested in house without knowledge/consent of both spouses  *I fear he is “doing repairs” without my knowledge with intent to “charge” me later.

➢   Realtor chosen by hit__ date

➢   Must allow house to be shown upon realtor’s request

➢   Communicate with realtor in a timely manner

➢   Provide realtor with a lockbox so he/she can show house when not home

➢   Vacate premises during a showing so potential buyers will feel more comfortable

➢   Excess clutter/furniture will be removed from house and walls

➢   Set specific and firm date-linked progress thresholds:  If house not listed by (date) or if not sold by (date) then ex vacates within 30 days (he would have to move out for a sale anyway, so any emotional complaints for delay wouldn't be based on reality) and you take over handling the sale.  If ex doesn't vacate as agreed, then (next series of consequences such as financial deductions from equity, etc).  Etc.

Letting him remain in the house leaves him in control.  Maybe that's okay since you're more concerned about other aspects of your strategy, but be aware that you MUST set limits as part of the agreement or settlement.  Odds are he will not want to give it up and will sabotage a sale as long as he can.  Courts often are very reluctant to set limits or enforce compliance after-the-fact.  If you have realistic but firm consequences built into a settlement then a judge is more likely to (eventually) enforce the terms of the settlement.

Perhaps the settlement can give him CONDITIONAL or TEMPORARY 4 months possession until the house sells, with just one 2 month extension if not yet sold?  And if meanwhile he fails to pay on time for his portion of financial obligations (mortgage, utilities, etc) then any bills he should have paid but didn't, as well as clean-up, would be deducted from his portion of equity.

Carrot AND stick.  Sadly, the 'carrot' alone often doesn't work, you need to have that 'stick' in hand too or else the other won't stop at eating the carrot, next is your hand and then your arm and then... .  

[atcrossroads]

I'm emotionally exhausted and will respond more later, but I just wanted to let all of you know I went with attorney #2 -- the more experienced guy.  Both actually had similar demeanors and approaches, but I went with the one I know is good.  He definitely fits the bill of being assertive but not aggressive.  Crossing my fingers and toes for a settlement OUT OF COURT.

Thanks, all!

More later.  I think I'm due a walk followed by a margarita. 

[momtara]

i hope you stay out of court too!

i ended up staying with my lawyer for now.  both of the ones i talked to today didn't fit my bill.

i have two i like, but i may wait a week to change, even though i have to pay a new retainer this week to my old one.

[momtara]

what flavor margarita? mmm