how do I carry on in a healthy way in this friendship with BPDex?

[Depression = 72% of members]

P&C, I totally agree with Phoebe!

At some point in time, we just have to be able to say what we think, and really be who we truly are! 


What I truly am (at times?), "is a wind-sucking-OMG I hope this doesn't backfire-but I gotta say this or bust-who does she think she is?-yeah, I know she's BPD-dear Lord I did/said it----wait for it, wait for it... . whew, did it---kaboom/no kaboom---let's move forward" kinda gal 

Seriously, in my unship with my pwBPD, I have never hidden how I really feel, she knows it, I've not changed in my position.  What I have changed, is the way I express it to her, in what I feel is a way she can handle it without too much pressure.  We have ups and downs, she does things that hurt me, although not purposely.  I am sure I do things that peeve her as well, again, not on purpose, it's just life.   

Even though it may cause me anxiety, I let her know when she does because I cannot allow her to walk all over me. She lets me know as well and we work it out, the biggest thing is I don't over-personalize her crap like I used to before I was "in the know", if you will.

I so want for you to find some balance here with all of this.  I also want for your heart to not hurt too.

 

[Cardinals in Flight]

P&C, I totally agree with Phoebe!

At some point in time, we just have to be able to say what we think, and really be who we truly are! 


What I truly am (at times?), "is a wind-sucking-OMG I hope this doesn't backfire-but I gotta say this or bust-who does she think she is?-yeah, I know she's BPD-dear Lord I did/said it----wait for it, wait for it... . whew, did it---kaboom/no kaboom---let's move forward" kinda gal 

Seriously, in my unship with my pwBPD, I have never hidden how I really feel, she knows it, I've not changed in my position.  What I have changed, is the way I express it to her, in what I feel is a way she can handle it without too much pressure.  We have ups and downs, she does things that hurt me, although not purposely.  I am sure I do things that peeve her as well, again, not on purpose, it's just life.   

Even though it may cause me anxiety, I let her know when she does because I cannot allow her to walk all over me. She lets me know as well and we work it out, the biggest thing is I don't over-personalize her crap like I used to before I was "in the know", if you will.

I so want for you to find some balance here with all of this.  I also want for your heart to not hurt too.

 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waitaminute]

Patientandclear,

Your judgement is good, I think. I look at your approach and hope that maybe I could achieve the same level of friendship with my BPDex.

Be more honest? Maybe. But be clear that you are just expressing your feelings... . Not asking for him to change. And not asking for him to respond.

But again... .   You have gotten this far with your approach. Trust your thoughtful instincts.

[patientandclear]

Patientandclear,

Your judgement is good, I think. I look at your approach and hope that maybe I could achieve the same level of friendship with my BPDex.

Be more honest? Maybe. But be clear that you are just expressing your feelings... . Not asking for him to change. And not asking for him to respond.

But again... .  You have gotten this far with your approach. Trust your thoughtful instincts.

Waitaminute -- I so appreciate this.  It's hard not to second-guess oneself when one's best instincts about what is right result in ... . this.  Utter silence.  It's been a week since I wrote him last.  He has not been heard from.  This is not unprecedented, he's come back from gaps like this maybe 4-5 times since we reconnected, having done some processing, sometimes able to identify what was bothering him albeit a little stiffly, sometimes just ignoring that he ever went away.

Somehow this feels different, but each time it happens, I feel this way -- that he's gone for good, that maybe I mishandled it, that all the care we've taken to get this far has been squandered.

I'm feeling that way again, but when I retrace my steps, I keep getting to the same place: he was the one who left.  I told him I'd really miss him but I let him go without drama or any feeling I was trying to hold on to him.  When he announced he was not coming back (though who knows where that stands now), I couldn't possibly have acted indifferent to that without being dishonest.  I tried to make clear I was not judging his choice but asking essentially "are you considering what you'd be giving up?"  The alternatives were either to pretend none of this mattered, and proceed with a greatly reduced version of our prior r/s; or to just end my investment in the relationship with him without saying anything.  Neither of those would feel appropriate at all.

I'm back to how strange it is to be in a situation where the best thing you can do results in this crappy outcome.  The truth is, it isn't at an "end" yet and maybe what happens next will be better because of this communication.  But right now it feels very empty and sad and like everything we did just evaporated like water in the desert.  I guess that's the universe's cue to me to "detach from the outcome."  I'm trying ... .

MaybeSo, your edit of Maria's post is so wise. "It's unhealthy because  he keeps being who he is and you keep expecting him to be someone else."  It really is true that this is the source of my pain -- though the problem is, I keep thinking I know who he is and accept that, & then it turns out I didn't actually know the full dimensions of who he is and the degree of emotional destruction and abandonment he is capable of.  Clearly, I need to just make NO assumptions about that if we remain involved in this ... . whatever it is/was.

[waitaminute]

P & C,

My BPDex used to just go without warning. I asked if she would tell me "i need space". She now usually does.

And when she returns, I say "space is always good to us".

Because it is. But is is hard when we get ourselves into a waiting mode. Seems like the end. But its not... . At least it's not the end of friendship.

[briefcase]

Sometimes when we work so hard on our side of the equation, we develop some hidden hopes and expectations that the other person will react a certain way to all our effort.  And when the other person doesn't meet those expectations it can be tempting to try to own the responsibility for the disappointing outcome.  

When that happens, we can veer into trying to ferret out the "cause and effect" of the disappointing result - usually with our actions considered the "cause" and their actions considered the "effect."  

But, I don't think it really works that way.  In general, I think we have a much more limited ability to influence the thoughts and actions of other people than we sometimes want to give ourselves credit for.  And for pwBPD, I think we have even less influence.

As far as "knowing him" - he doesn't really know himself, that's partly why he's out on the road, isn't it?  There may not be a stable "him" to really know right now.    

   

[rosannadanna]

Somehow this feels different, but each time it happens, I feel this way -- that he's gone for good, that maybe I mishandled it, that all the care we've taken to get this far has been squandered.

What is you feel every time?  What you stated was a set of thoughts not your feelings.  And If you feel the same every time, what is the "this" that feels different this time?

Why does this keep happening?  It goes way beyond the cause and effect thing that briefcase is referring to.

What compells you to stay engaged?

What is your "little girl" secret wish of how things could be?

Who does he represent to that "little girl" part of you?

Start talking and listening to that little girl.

[patientandclear]

Rosanna, I've thought a ton & worked a lot in therapy on what it is about this man & our r/s that has such a grip on me. I don't actually think this is a little girl issue in my case. I think the abandonment wound I'm trying to heal is one that he himself inflicted, that I experienced as trauma because it happened in the midst of what I felt and thought to be a r/s of safety, security & deep love. Unlike the demise of some BPD relationships, ours ended suddenly with NO precursors or warning. No raging, withdrawing, jealousy, weirdness (in retrospect I can see signs of his anxiety that he did a good job of concealing/submerging, but that was it).

I am trying to make the best of what happened and salvage what remains of what we had. I thought he was, too.  I've become aware of & increasingly kept in check a post-breakup impulse to perform at a high level so he will love me again. I guess I don't always understand the questions about "why do you want this" or "what are you getting out of this" ... . I came to care genuinely for this person. It turned out he can't endure sustained intimacy so we are no longer lovers. If we can find a healthy, reciprocal was to maintain an close friendship, I want to, because that maybe be the best we can do & because I care about & enjoy him.  The trouble is that I do develop expectations based on how we're interacting & those tend to prove false over time.

[maria1]

'The trouble is that I do develop expectations based on how we're interacting & those tend to prove false over time.'

Do you see any link, any pattern, between this r/s and your previous significant relationships?

My MO has been to fill in the gaps in a r/s with my own fantasy. The fantasy is based absolutely on evidence I can see before me- I can't tell that's what I'm doing at the time. It's only later, when I'm disappointed by the crumbling facade I am left holding (or not holding) that I can see what an amazing job I've done.

My pwBPD was/is very good at leaving things unsaid, hinting, suggesting, answering questions with questions. It fed right into my ability to feed right off that with my 'finding answers' thinking. I realised a few months back that it was OK to pin him down on stuff and it was the only way to get anything concrete. It didn't actually hurt him at all, asking him specific questions, and asking him more if he was cloudy with the answer. It hurt me not doing so.

[arabella]

Sometimes when we work so hard on our side of the equation, we develop some hidden hopes and expectations that the other person will react a certain way to all our effort.  And when the other person doesn't meet those expectations it can be tempting to try to own the responsibility for the disappointing outcome.  

I see this. The chaos that a pwBPD can create wrecks havoc with the nervous system and psyche. So, for me, I think it's a desperate need to feel like I have some control. It's an illusion though. And every time the illusion shatters I'm upset all over again - as if it were the first time. It's like being slapped in the face with just how powerless I really am. Could this be part of what's happening with you that has you so shaken up?

[patientandclear]

Yes, very much so.  It is shocking to me that all this effort and sincerity and care, which he seemed to really welcome and value (and return), was seemingly for nothing.  Maybe this is the last time it will shock me.

MaybeSo and Phoebe and others who have reconstituted an unconventional r/s with your exes after repeated abandonments & betrayals -- how do you have it in you to continue to care?  I get that the conditions under which you care keep you emotionally safe.  But how do you maintain or recover your warmth toward these men after experiencing that same flattening betrayal we all have?

I suspect the answer is really, deeply understanding that they are who they are and giving up past expectations to the contrary.  Where I stand right now, though, the good feelings I had for him before this latest abandonment have sustained a lot of damage.

[123Phoebe]

MaybeSo and Phoebe and others who have reconstituted an unconventional r/s with your exes after repeated abandonments & betrayals -- how do you have it in you to continue to care?  I get that the conditions under which you care keep you emotionally safe.  But how do you maintain or recover your warmth toward these men after experiencing that same flattening betrayal we all have?

How I'm able to maintain warmth towards my friend is because he shows warmth towards me continuously.  I'm not afraid to state my needs and so far he's been able to meet them.  Sure he still displays BPD traits, certain holidays trigger him, he distances after being close, he's distant toward my friends and there's weird family stuff going on (on both of our sides); I can live with this without emotional upset and upheaval.  I know this and accept these things about him, so I'm not shocked when they occur.  Let down a little, perhaps?  But I don't have grandiose visions anymore of having the 'perfect love and life together' if only... .   There is no such thing.  Life can be complicated and I have lots of issues of my own that need sorting through.

Getting and keeping in touch with my issues/my feelings has been the turning point for our relationship.

I don't look at things he's does as a 'betrayals' to me, but how am I betraying myself?  Kind of like the saying, 'If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything'.

P&C, like I said before, if the guy I'm seeing up and moved away, we wouldn't have the relationship we have; I mean, it's just the way it goes.  Our relationship consists of a lot of personal contact.  We see each other a lot.  I would expect him (or anyone!) to tell me that he's planning on moving and if he didn't, then dropped a bombshell like that on me, I wouldn't listen to his 'excuses' about how he's surprised his place sold as fast as it did.  I wouldn't use BPD as an excuse for shoddy behavior.  On a certain level I'd understand that yes, he obviously has really deep issues, but those issues end with him, I wouldn't take them on and try to continue forward in a way that suits him.  Screw him at that point   Our relationship would have a serious disconnect for very good reasons.  He's no longer here!  And he didn't have the decency to let me know he wasn't going to be (my boundary, my value).  I wouldn't believe for a minute that he was thinking about selling his place one night, put it up for sale the next morning and it sold in a week.  Surprise!  Nope, doesn't fly with me.  And it especially makes me leery as he stated that 'you're naive' and that 'he's just a jerk', right around this time

I wrote asking, essentially, why he wasn't coming back here ... .   I said he could constantly re-start his life every year (he does make major shifts in job, location, girlfriend, with incredible frequency, this is the latest in a long long long series of sudden dramatic changes) and it would be fascinating and promising, but what happens then?  And I said there were people, including me, who know and love him here.

What is it that you find so compelling and love about a person who makes major shifts in job, location and girlfriend, with incredible frequency?  What kind of foundation is this to base love on?

Where I stand right now, though, the good feelings I had for him before this latest abandonment have sustained a lot of damage.

This is good!  Might not feel that way, but it sounds like you're getting in touch with your true feelings.  Listen to them

[Seashells]

I'm following along with this and learning from it as well. 

P&C could it possibly be accepting our own normal emotions in a relationship evolve to more attachment as a natural part of who we are?  And trying to change our expectations so as to accept them for who they are comes at a cost to our own innate needs and natural flow in a relationship?  If we are as much people who can allow themselves to emotionally attach, as a detachment disorder is someone who cannot; do we not have to honor both?  I'm wondering if that is our real task in all this.  And even as we go through it and let go of outcomes, we cannot forget ourselves and our needs, and try to shut down or alter our own natural progression in becoming emotionally closer (and vulnerable) because they are unable to form healthy attachments.   If it is a part of who we are, and if we consider it as a healthy thing, how can we deny accepting ourselves being ourselves at least as much as we accept their disorder and who they are?  Is that what we mean by detaching? I think sometimes we bargain with ourselves until we cannot any longer.  I'm sorting through it all too.

And if you are trying to adjust for him, how much of it is trying to change or compromise how your own self naturally evolves in a relationship of any intimate kind, and what your own nature is as a person?  And at what cost?

Just my thoughts.   I feel like I'm coming out of body of water that was suffocating my soul, but at times warming and comforting to my skin.  I'm starting to breath again.  It's up and down, but I keep coming back to not sacrificing who I am as well for the sake of continuing.   It hurts like all hell to let go, and I can't even process now what and if there will ever be between us again.  I have decided I can't put any more of myself into this thing unless he can care enough about my basic needs or boundaries so I don't feel compromised all the time.

Pheobe what you said resonated with me so much too.  I'm at the point of figuring out I've got to accept me and who I am, and I'm not sure how much of that can truly fit with him now. And my own situation involves geographical distance at times and has continued now for almost 3 years.

Forgive me P&C if it seems I'm evaluating it from a different place or simplifying or making assumptions, in the end to me it all seems to lead back to the same basic truths.  I've seen so much caring and depth in your words.  Accepting all this is so very hard to do at times. I'm so sorry you are hurting again.   

[MaybeSo]

MaybeSo and Phoebe and others who have reconstituted an unconventional r/s with your exes after repeated abandonments & betrayals -- how do you have it in you to continue to care?  I get that the conditions under which you care keep you emotionally safe.  But how do you maintain or recover your warmth toward these men after experiencing that same flattening betrayal we all have?

I suspect the answer is really, deeply understanding that they are who they are and giving up past expectations to the contrary.  Where I stand right now, though, the good feelings I had for him before this latest abandonment have sustained a lot of damage.

But I don't have grandiose visions anymore of having the 'perfect love and life together' if only... .     There is no such thing.  Life can be complicated and I have lots of issues of my own that need sorting through.

Getting and keeping in touch with my issues/my feelings has been the turning point for our relationship.

I don't look at things he's does as a 'betrayals' to me, but how am I betraying myself?  Kind of like the saying, 'If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything'.

I have to agree with 123Pheobe.  I have really had to give-up my own grandiose notions about having perfect love, special love etc., Did you know that a preoccupation with the idea of perfect love is one of the criteria for NPD?  I'm not saying I'm NPD, what I am saying is that I have moved away from a total focus on what my ex  (or any man) is doing and constant analysis of him in the hopes that he will change or make me happy by learning to have a certain kind of relationship with me... .   and I've re-arranged it so that my focus is on me and what makes me happy and fulfilled, ex or no ex. 

I also have to keep getting in touch with my issues and my feelings, and managing myself and my own life... .   NOT HIM. 

My ex has some really good qualities and he isn't a very stable person romantically.  So I don't expect stability from him.  I provide my own and I get it from others who can, too.    Why would I love him less as a person?  He's not evil, he just doens't meet all my romantic dreams.  I'm over it.  That doesn't mean I feel cynical, either.   I am just much more interested in the ways I may betray myself, and I'm much less interested in whatever antics another person is up to.

My happiness and peace of mind is MY JOB, no one elses.  He is not my prince, my knight in shining armour, he is not going to rescue me, or make me whole,  we aren't special or perfect, he is not going to give meaning to my life or make me whole... .   or love me out of my own issues.   I choose to accept him as he is.  I don't suffer anymore because I'm not in that space of waiting for him to change into my ideal mate.  He is who he is. That shift from personalizing what others do (narcissism 'lite' has made a huge difference in my thought processes and how I look at things.  I like my life when he's around, I like my life when he's not.  I can be sad or miss him, but I do not abandon myself the way I use to.   It's not his job to fix me, nor I him.  If I'm not happy, it's not because of his presence or lack of presence.  It's my life, it's my responsibility to make it meangingful and to manage my own disapointment and sadness or greif... .   in or out of any relationship.  When I look to him to save me, when I look at him and think "If only he'd do XYZ, THEN I':) BE XYZ"... .   That's my own self-abandonment right there because that is NOT TRUE... .   I do not need him to be happy.  That's my job. 

[MaybeSo]

I would add also, that this shift was a very long process during a 5 year r/s... .   culminating in a year of mostly NC that was all about grieving.  So, I don't want to make it sound as though this was easy or just an intellectual process.  It wasn't. 

[patientandclear]

Thanks so much you guys. I admire and respect your approaches very much.

After thinking more about this situation, there are two reasons I can't get comfortable with where I am.

The first is about the limits of radical acceptance.  This is sort of what Seashells was writing about three posts up, I think.

My ex and I do/did best together when I don't ask anything from him except what he offers and extends to me (actually, he has asked me to initiate things, and assured me I don't need to self-censor & can share any reaction I have to what he tells me; but when I do, it doesn't usually go well).  Yet when he radically changes what he's offering and asking for with no warning, and apparently not because of anything that happened between us, it hurts me, and just accepting that without a word, and adjusting expectations downward accordingly without a word, hurts too, and feels dishonest somehow toward him, me and our r/s.  How can one not be hurt by such shifts?

To be concrete: before he moved, he would schedule getting together every 10-14 days.  In between he'd text or email most days with trivial details or important issues, the kinds of observations and information you really only share with a partner.  He was like my undeclared partner, I suppose is the best description.  We'd plan for getting together with an agenda of stuff we both wanted to talk about -- fun, important, interesting stuff to both of us.  We traded things to read and discuss, etc.  Afterwards each time he'd text immediately to set up the next time, so there was no uncertainty about whether or when we would continue.

Obviously, when he suddenly moved, all of this was going to change.  Yet he had been the one who seemed so eager to maintain this rhythm and pace of communication.  Then suddenly it shifted, with no acknowledgement that it was even a change.  How can I invest the energy and enthusiasm required to do that with someone, and then be indifferent to whether it continues?  How do you radically accept that?

Which connects to my second reason for discomfort: the line between speaking one's truth and showing that we care and are not indifferent; and co-dependent saving/fixing.

As a former co-dependent fixer I have worked SO hard with this man not to be that.  I have all kinds of ideas about what happens in his intimate relationships, including ours, but I haven't even tried to discuss that with him other than very general thoughts at the time of our breakup and when we decided not to get back together as lovers, at least for the time being. Since we reconnected as friends, I have stayed away from this topic.  I've been supportive and interested in his various ideas about what he might do, even about where he might move for school/professional development; sad as that made me, I understood why it would be important to him to explore that; but I haven't tried to stick my nose into his decision-making.

Until he just sort of blew everything in his life up in a month's time, and sold his place and moved and decided he'd move elsewhere sort of at random, seemingly just because it wasn't here, it was new and a change.  And that somehow crossed a line for me where I needed to say "do you know why you're doing this? because it comes at a cost, including the loss of something important between us."  And that is practically all I said, but it was enough to send him into angry/threatened/invaded/challenged/seen-too-clearly/questioned-too-pointedly silence for the past 10 days, and, for all I know, forever.  (It's kind of a double whammy cocktail for him because I both stated something that has gone unstated between us -- ever since we have stopped speaking in terms of "we're in love," we have not been explicit about the significance of what goes on between us, even though objectively there has been enormous emotional investment by both of us -- and then said that he is risking or not doing a good job of safeguarding this thing that we haven't acknowledged doing together.  And I'm questioning his most reliable defense/self-protection mechanism, which is change or fleeing.  I guess it's a triple whammy.)

I keep coming back to this in many posts on this board.  I totally get the radical acceptance approach (I love how Phoebe framed it: "it is what it is, what it isn't, what it was, what it wasn't, what it could be".  Not expecting him to be someone he isn't.  However ... .   however.  He isn't very happy.  He talks with me about that, sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly.  He says portenous things like "it feels like all of life is about coming to terms with loss."  

I have ideas about why he isn't happy.  He keeps destroying things that have value and wondering why his hands are empty.  But when I oh-so-slightly speak my truth about all of this when he's gotten to a fairly extreme degree of impulsiveness (sell house/leave town/decide to move to new town/decide not to move to new town), is that cutting against accepting who he is?  Is it stepping into co-dependent saving -- just to ask questions that make him uncomfortable, like "do you know why you left here?" and, essentially, "what are you looking for?"

The costs of what I said appear pretty high.  He's gone completely silent.  I feel OK about that if this was a necessary instance of me speaking my truth, being myself, standing up for the essential bond between us.  But was it that, or was it my need to fix him?  If so, I hate paying such a high price for slipping across that line, a place I don't want to go.  I don't think I was trying to fix him -- I think I was trying to speak up for our relationship and registering that something is lost when he does this, something not easily recovered.  This is why I asked how the rest of you can just let intense push-pull behavior go without it eventually damaging the good feelings you have for your SO.  If I could have just let it go, he's still be writing me lovely emails and we'd perhaps be growing closer, not plunged into silence.  So when should one speak and say hey dude, What the heck?  Aren't we supposed to do that for people we care for?

[maria1]

If I could have just let it go, he's still be writing me lovely emails and we'd perhaps be growing closer, not plunged into silence.  So when should one speak and say hey dude, What the heck?  Aren't we supposed to do that for people we care for?

You'll never be growing closer because he cannot grow closer. Because he has an attachment disorder that will ALWAYS prevent him achieving true intimacy. Nothing you did or said or say or do would have achieved the outcome of growing closer. I think that is why you are finding this so hard, because the promise is there, so, so close but it is always just that little bit out of reach. That is how BPD works. Intimacy is snatched away just as you breathe it in.

I see from my perspective that you were doing was holding onto his presence by not rocking the boat. By following his lead so much that you weren't able to truly reveal your feelings. As soon as you did just a touch of that he is gone. You put an expectation on him, that he would explain to you why he is doing something. Because true friendship and true intimacy does include expectation of that sort. Real friendship means truly growing closer by truly sharing your feelings. This isn't possible with this man because of the disorder.  I'm so sorry but there isn't anything else you can do except let go. Something is stopping you from letting go of the belief that you can have an intimate connection with him

In my opinion, from the outside (and I fully appreciate there are others who have stayed more than me but I do feel that I managed to detach from my ex while sustaining some sort of friendship) I believe that is the belief that you need to focus on rather than how you have to behave to keep a connection with him.

[patientandclear]

That is super insightful Maria--thank you.

The last time I asked him to explain what he was doing with us, things got really funky & mysterious.  This was last fall when we were doing great, so close ... .   and then he got all distant for a couple of weeks, then announced in a really curt way, totally unlike our other communication, that he only wanted to be friends (I had suggested nothing else).  This was so hurtful, out of the blue, when I had accepted we were only friends, come back into contact solely on that basis, not remotely intimated anything else ... .   then to have him wallop me with this reminder.  My first feeling was defensive and hurt -- sort of "yeah, I already got that memo, I know."  But with a little time, I responded differently, saying I had no other expectation & at this point wasn't open to anything else, because I hadn't heard anything from him that would mean anything had changed ... .   but asking what had prompted this need for clarification, and saying I'd need to pull way back if he was confused, so we'd be really clear what was going on.

We went back and forth a few times with him not answering my questions about what was going on, but reiterating that he just wanted to go back to how things had been, and he didn't want us to be less open with each other; and me saying maybe, but first, I needed to understand what prompted this weird reaction, since how can I be open with you if I don't know what caused you to react like this?  And then him saying it wasn't anything between us that caused this, and anyway, can we just go back to what we were doing? And me saying hey, were you seeing someone else? or did you hear from someone that I was really broken up about what happened with us last year?  because if it's those things, we'll be fine, but tell me what it was ... .   around and around.

He didn't answer my final email where I threw out those possible explanations (was he seeing someone, etc.) for two weeks, & I almost threw in the towel.  Finally I sent one last "is this where you want to leave it? BTW you don't have to answer my questions if you can't or don't want to" message that let him off the hook & gave him an easy way back in.  He happily & warmly accepted & we were off the the races again, but interestingly, he claimed he HAD answered that email, but his answer got stuck in his "drafts" folder and never sent.  After he told me that, he never produced & forwarded the email, so the questions were never answered.  I still don't know what he'd say about why he had that sudden pull-back and need to reiterate that we were friends-only.  (I have since ruled out on my own that he was seeing anyone, and pretty much decided based on all that was going on with us that this was projection -- he wanted more, that triggered bad feelings, he projected the desire onto me so he could reject it, but then couldn't explain how that made any sense, so never answered any request for an explanation.)

Anyway, Maria, you are right -- that did train me to keep the r/s going by not rocking the boat, not asking "why?" questions, not asking that he explain his comings and goings, not asking for any acknowledgement of what we were doing.  Now that it matters, now that I asked again, that doesn't work for him.  And you're right, being able to discuss such things IS a part of closeness and intimacy.

You ask why I have such a hard time accepting that he is not capable of intimacy.  I guess because we've now spent a long time right at the threshold, and it did seem like we were going to sustain it, with a strange balance of closeness and denying that we were close.  As my friend said, "he can only be intimate with you while denying that it is happening."  I could deal with that.  But I can't, it seems, just accept it when he breaks the unstated terms of this thing we were doing and pretends nothing significant happened.  It feels like a weird kind of gaslighting.  "What, you & me? Nothing to see there.  :)on't know what you're talking about."  I know that's not true (and that's why I've reacted badly to some comments on the boards about "obviously he doesn't have the same feelings for you that you have about him," because that's his formal position, but that isn't how he's acted, and I have to attest to what I know is the truth about what really happened between us, even when he is denying it).  So I guess I was running this experiment to see if we could sort of sneak up on intimacy around the back.

It's not going so well right now ... .  

[maria1]

It's too hard isn't it? My pwBPD could do intimacy in a way. In fact I think the awful truth is that we were closer than I have been to anybody at times. And it was heavenly, truly. But then he shrank from it- just as we got there he would shrink away, flee. He described it as feeling claustrophobic. Or a fear of commitment. He also asked me after the final push why he had to keep on running. He wanted me to fix it. He wanted me to make him stay.

This disorder is just so impossible. It isn't fair. It isn't that he doesn't care. I believe they do care; its just that the disorder pulls the care just at the point of it tipping into normal intimacy.

There's nothing to say to make it feel better. But you are such an insightful sensitive woman. I would love to see you turn the insightfulness toward you and away from him. 

[patientandclear]

He also asked me after the final push why he had to keep on running. He wanted me to fix it. He wanted me to make him stay.

Maria -- he said he wanted you to make him stay; but here I am, playing out what happens when you try that.  Then you can be in the persecutor's role of trying to control him, standing in the way of his freedom & self-realization.

My ex said after he left me that he always thought we would talk.  Except that he always refused to talk, until I gave up.  Then it's not like he told me he wanted to talk, I was just supposed to chase and, yes, I suppose, "make him stay." But so long as I was trying to persuade him to stay, he was in adamant push mode.  They want you to do the thing you didn't actually do, I think is the trick, because that explains why it didn't work out.

[Seashells]

My ex said after he left me that he always thought we would talk.  Except that he always refused to talk, until I gave up.  Then it's not like he told me he wanted to talk, I was just supposed to chase and, yes, I suppose, "make him stay." But so long as I was trying to persuade him to stay, he was in adamant push mode.  They want you to do the thing you didn't actually do, I think is the trick, because that explains why it didn't work out.

Except, when you do it, then you're pushing them. And when they decide that doesn't work it just changes again.   Honestly.  

I'm going through it right now.   Right now he's bombarding me with texts.  I need space to think and a breather, he has no respect for me saying I needed space right now, and just keeps badgering me with texts until I feel I have to be rude to stop it.  

Last week I couldn't get him to talk to me about why he was distancing me and he'd blow up when I tried.   I keep trying to validate and use SET and now I'm just cutting it off and not responding.  It wears one down. He sent me some of the most rude vile texts this week end I've ever received, telling me he hates me.  Then a day later he's sad and it's like nothing ever happened.  (to him it isn't anything, but to me it IS on the receiving end).  Hasn't even occurred to him to apologize.  

I HATE this, I've started to try to enforce boundaries and I'm getting awful push back while he's trying to maintain control.  

P&C  It's always hard when they aren't around; it seems a good balance that lasts is very hard.  I keep questioning my commitment to this, I care about him, but I can't seem to get a handle on balance either.   :'(

[maria1]

I think the only balance is in what Maybeso writes. In pulling right back and detaching from them. We can't expect anything from them in terms of our own needs.

What helps me is to remember my ex isn't thinking of me the way I was thinking of him ( I say was because I don't think of him so much now. This period of NC is just me getting on with my life. It doesn't hurt). What is incredibly difficult for us is to get that I think. Because they are good at convincing us they do when they see us and they feel whatever they feel at that moment ( huge love for us).

I don't want horrible texts from somebody ever again. Ever again. I never want that horrible feeling in my stomach, scared to pick my phone up. I will never give my pwBPD my mobile number because of that. He thinks that's unfair of me. Well he will just have to deal with that. He had other ways of contacting me. He wanted my mobile number and couldn't bear that I didn't give in to him. He even said ' I won't abuse it'. He knows he abuses.

I also don't want to put up with silence from someone I care and worry about. My pwBPD was suicidal at times and I lived through a suicide attempt with him. Slept with him through the nightmares, was by his side through all of it. He was quite happy to sleep with another woman later but ask me to still watch for his mood dipping. No thanks, how on earth would that work?

This is a serious mental illness. I have my own issues and I need to look after myself and my family. I never again want to focus on somebody else's health to the detriment of my own. Especially when whatever I do it makes no difference in the end. Yes the tools work and I could have chosen a relationship with this man but I don't choose that. I didn't want that. I made the choice to try and be his friend because I was sure that he needed me and I loved his company and didn't like being alone. I missed him and him adoring me. But it was mainly false. He just wanted me to meet his needs because I happened to meet more of them than others people did. I was very aware I would have been living on borrowed time of somebody else coming along who met his needs better.

Look after yourselves P & C and Seashells. Your pwBPD are capable of looking after themselves. You don't have to live with pain.

[123Phoebe]

P&C,  not that I think this would change anything, as he has BPD, a serious emotional disorder.

The only thing we can do is speak our truth and not betray ourselves.

You were wondering if you had stepped into 'codependent territory' and I believe you did. 

There's a difference between telling someone what 'they're doing, what they're losing' (codependent territory) and what we're losing and how we feel about it (healthy detachment).

BPDx - "I'm moving to a brand new area!"

P&C - "Why aren't you coming back here?  You can constantly re-start your life every year and it would be fascinating and promising, but what happens then? There are people, including me, who know and love you here."

"I was hoping you'd come back here.  I remember the conversation we had where you said that a lot of life is coming to terms with loss.  This is one of those times, for me."

Or something to that effect. 

Getting in touch with ourselves and being able to speak our truth with no fear

   

[waitaminute]

Don't ask questions.

Yeah... . my approach too. It's one she taught me well. But if I don't ask her how she is when we chat, she says "you don't even ask me how I am!"

Like so many things... .   Don't expect reason and logic.

I'm not trying to re-establish a rs with her. If I could, I would try for what patientandclear has tried. It's the best I could hope for.

P&C,  I believe they value friendship so I think your BPDex will try to get close again. Your attempt at friendship is amazing. But I read in your posts that it takes its toll. How can we put so much care into our effort to remain even friends when in return we receive a full helping of BPD pain? Why do we even try? I know the answer.

[MaybeSo]

P&c,

Codependence isn't love, it's addiction.

The amount of focus you have on him and what he is and isn't doing, or what you should or shouldn't say, cause it may make the difference in getting sweet emails or not... .

Isn't that kind of like being hyper alert and willing to do anything as long as you get your fix?

Im going to suggest that what you feel is love for him is mixed in with a lot of codependence.

When I'm overly focused on how best to avoid or extract something from someone it's not

love. It's emotional dependence. What makes me walk on eggshells and feeling anxious is withdrawal symptoms and my anger at my ex for forcing withdrawal symptoms when he goes quiet. But withdrawal is needed; loving detachment is needed.

Love yourself first. Respect yourself, get in touch with your truth, meet your own needs. Do that and share honestly about how you feel and what your needs are; it's not his job to fix it, it's yours. When you do that, you will detach with love. And the conversations you have will be authentic and honest, like the one phoebe suggested above, where you own your feelings no matter what his response and without the need to control for his responses or

his actions. That's intimacy. Codependent arrangements aren't intimacy.

[patientandclear]

P&C,  not that I think this would change anything, as he has BPD, a serious emotional disorder.

The only thing we can do is speak our truth and not betray ourselves.

You were wondering if you had stepped into 'codependent territory' and I believe you did.  

There's a difference between telling someone what 'they're doing, what they're losing' (codependent territory) and what we're losing and how we feel about it (healthy detachment).

BPDx - "I'm moving to a brand new area!"

P&C - "Why aren't you coming back here?  You can constantly re-start your life every year and it would be fascinating and promising, but what happens then? There are people, including me, who know and love you here."

"I was hoping you'd come back here.  I remember the conversation we had where you said that a lot of life is coming to terms with loss.  This is one of those times, for me."

Or something to that effect.  

Getting in touch with ourselves and being able to speak our truth with no fear

 

Phoebe (& MaybeSo), thanks.  That is my instinct also -- that with those questions, I stepped over some important line into fixing/saving.  The very thing he's asked me not to do & that I promised him & myself I would not do.  Until then, sad as his departure made me, I'd stuck to "I will miss you" and "yes, right now it feels like all of life is loss -- for me, because it sounds like you're leaving."  (I said those words almost verbatim actually.)  All this time, almost two years, I have refrained from sticking my nose in his business, and that is why we have gained the intimacy we have, I think.

I feel pretty certain that for him, I invaded his private territory with these questions.  He isn't sure what he's doing or why, but he doesn't want me shining a spotlight on those questions.  Our r/s works when I accept him for who he is, he can share what he is really feeling without feeling like he is going to be grilled about why he's so weird or dysfunctional.  I was, for a long time, a fairly safe space for him to be him.

But I'm still confused, if you can bear with me.  MaybeSo, you say I should be less concerned about the impact on him & his response to me.  I finally asked these damn questions because was feeling some instinct to, I don't know, protest the cost to us of his choices, at long last.  All this time, I haven't done that, and it was starting to feel inauthentic to just act like ok, that's a valid choice.  When someone we love is careening around smashing up things in their life, even if we don't try to make it better for them, don't we at least say "hey, I notice you're smashing things you care about, what is that about?"

I'm trying to understand whether my questions were an example of my saying what I needed to say & now I need to detach with love from his response or lack thereof.  Or were they me stepping over the line into co-dependence, as you both say; and if so, do I need to correct that?  Should I apologize?  Reach out with some innocuous communication on other topics?  I've been waiting for him to reply since, well, it's his turn, and I figure he needs time and space to process what I said.  But now it is starting to feel like he won't, or that perhaps it would be appropriate for me to repair what I broke here by intruding into his business and trying to clean up his side of the street, as it were.

[maria1]

P & C

You didn't break into anything. You are trying to manage his emotions. You are trying to protect his feelings.

You are focussing on him.

He doesn't feel it or see it the way you do. You have nothing to apologise for.

Except to yourself because you continually refuse to look after yourself in this. You still just want to see it from his side and not yours. That is the entrenched codependency- do you see that?

[maria1]

Sorry for butting in- not my conversation right now- please ignore!

[briefcase]

Codependency is a thought process.  It goes to why you do or say something - not really what you do or say.

Underlying it is a belief that we hold the key to controlling someone else - that if we say or do something just the right way the other person's behaviors or thoughts will be influenced and we will get what we want from them. 

I see you focusing a lot of energy still on trying to figure out what makes him tick, what he is and isn't capable of in a relationship, whether you should contact him or wait, whether you need to apologize to him or not, etc. 

When you ask: should I contact him or apologize to him?

I hear: if I contact him or apologize, will he reconnect and talk to me again?

At least to me, some of your questions seem aimed more at "fine tuning" your message to get a better resonse from him, and less about exploring self.  The goal, I think, is to care less about him and his behavior and more about you and your needs. 

[briefcase]

And, for what it's worth, my impression is that you said what you needed to say to him when you talked to him.  But all this second-guessing is what feels more co-dependent and aimed at getting some result from him. Trying to "walk it back" and "fix" what may now feel like a "mistake" because of his reaction.    

[Seashells]

P&c,

Codependence isn't love, it's addiction.


Love yourself first. Respect yourself, get in touch with your truth, meet your own needs. Do that and share honestly about how you feel and what your needs are; it's not his job to fix it, it's yours. When you do that, you will detach with love. And the conversations you have will be authentic and honest, like the one phoebe suggested above, where you own your feelings no matter what his response and without the need to control for his responses or

his actions. That's intimacy. Codependent arrangements aren't intimacy.

This explanation about codependency makes more sense to me than probably any other I've read.  I get stuck at where healthy interdependency ends and this begins, because to be empathetic to another's feelings is also important.  I've read in some of the reading and lessons too that if you're in a relationship like this you have to be the healthy healthier one and "read" or "guess" or anticipate what may going on in your partners head in order to gauge which tools to use and the best way to deal with them.  So, if you're staying or wanting to relate to them better it's a very fine line to walk it seems if I'm understanding all I'm reading you have to act in a somewhat co-dependent way to relate to them.  And then define for yourself where your boundaries are and where you stop doing so? 

At least that's how I'm reading it, and of course this isn't an exact science, but it can be confusing. 

Maria-  I can tell you've been exactly where I'm at right now.  The texts stopped.  I was told if it were not for a child, an inferred threat of self harm was made to show me the hurt I've caused .    

By the end of the evening there was a full circle and it seemed he had calmed down (laughing and joking with other friends).   It's hard to take things seriously and not see it as a total manipulation.  And I guess that's my answer... .     I do think he has feelings for me, but it's hard to believe or know what they are right now.  I'm also struggling to not totally paint him black because I see how manipulative he can be trying to control me.   I've never believed this was a Narcissistic person, but when emotionally dysregulated lately I see lots of NPD traits.

P&C I hope you are doing well today.  Even though it's not the same situation at the moment, I feel like we may be facing the same things holding us back.  I don't want to assume too much, but I'm in a very life changing situation and have been for the past few years.  I often ask myself what it is in my  present or what fear of my future that keeps me staying or stuck in this and makes it more appealing to me (apparently) than moving forward and filling my life in other ways.  And yes, it's obvious that I care for this person, although I feel I'm detaching as my feelings are wearing out and wearing down.  In my case, I think it's my own fears and avoidance of other issues that make it too easy to focus on him, and I'm trying to come to grips with that and figure out a plan or way to break away from it and change it.