The guilt is coming on again...

[mindfulness]

I've been NC with my uBPD mom since Thanksgiving. I've done really well thanks to therapy and the support of my husband and friends. But this is by far the longest I've ever been NC with my mother. On top of it, it came on the heels of her losing her house in the recent hurricane (the lifelong victim really WAS a victim for once, which as you can imagine, was the worst possible thing that could have happened). Our final fight had to do with her believing I wasn't doing enough to help her through the crisis, despite the 10000 things I did and offered to do. I'm sure I don't need to say much more on that for you to all understand.

In any case, I've felt a lot of relief during this whole period, because I haven't had to be there to listen to her constant self-pitying rants and hysteria and 'woe is me' routine; haven't had to be her stand-in therapist or cheerleader reassuring her everytime she starts a fight that she really was in the right and the other guy was the ass; and most importantly, haven't had to be there through a major crisis in her life where I would have been the sole person responsible for fixing all of her problems at the drop of a hat. Haven't had to make her my number one priority, above my own life and husband, and then constantly prove to her that that is the case. So, that's been nice. And my life has been so calm and peaceful compared to when we are talking.

However, every now and then I feel that guilt creeping in. Maybe I am a bad daughter, I think. Maybe I should have tried harder to help her. Maybe she was right that I wasn't doing enough. She did lose her house, after all. Maybe I should have reached out by now and tried to patch things up. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

Logically, I know in my head that this is inaccurate. Of course I know that. We all know that when we are put in these positions with our BPD parents. She WANTS me to think this, and it's working -- of course it is, she is so very good at it, with me of all people! She has me trained like a dog. And yet, even though I know it's wrong, I can't overcome the feelings of guilt. And then the guilt makes me feel anxious, like I should be doing something to rectify it. And then when I entertain the thoughts of what to do, I get more anxious anticipating what the outcome would be. It's a vicious cycle.

So I reach out to this wonderful community to ask you how you get through these moments of guilt that I'm sure you all have. Any thoughts or suggestions? Just reading through some earlier posts in and of itself made me feel better -- the reminder that I am not alone and that you are all enduring similar things is really a comfort. Thank you in advance!

[Clearmind]

I was NC with my father for a period of 4 months - I now have controlled contact. I am at a place where I am confident in my use of boundaries, and no longer take it all personally.

Are you up for trying controlled contact?

[Kwamina]

On top of it, it came on the heels of her losing her house in the recent hurricane (the lifelong victim really WAS a victim for once, which as you can imagine, was the worst possible thing that could have happened). Our final fight had to do with her believing I wasn't doing enough to help her through the crisis, despite the 10000 things I did and offered to do. I'm sure I don't need to say much more on that for you to all understand.

I hate it when things like this happen because they'll always use this to manipulate you and others. A few years ago my mother's behavior started to escalate again and for months she seemed totally out of control... .  and then she got sick. I was completely fed up with her but this illness made it a lot harder to confront her with her behavior. So I tried to keep it all inside as much as I could, but as a result I almost imploded so that really wasn't the way to go.

[mindfulness]

I was NC with my father for a period of 4 months - I now have controlled contact. I am at a place where I am confident in my use of boundaries, and no longer take it all personally.

Are you up for trying controlled contact?

In theory yes. However I fear that if I am the first one to reach out right now, it will only reinforce that her punishment through NC has worked. Also, I have to be honest when I say it sometimes just feels easier to stay NC and not have to deal with her at all. In my experience, controlled contact has not ever worked with her. She is very all or nothing -- if you aren't willing to have the relationship on her terms, then she'd rather not have it all (you can't prove you love her by meeting her unreasonable/impossible demands, and therefore you deserve to be punished by not having her in your life; she thinks that if she does this the punishment will be so painful for me that I will eventually relent and give in to the demands. It's all a big manipulation). So when I have attempted to be reasonable and use controlled contact that's usually just enraged her further. Once a few years back after a period of NC I told her I didn't think we needed to talk every day or see each other once a week, as we had been, that it was getting to be too much and we could still be close and have a strong relationship with less dependence on each other (of course I said "dependence on each other" to imply that we both played a role, when in reality it was all her dependence on me). She freaked out at that and said she did NOT think that was reasonable and that that was not the kind of relationship she was interested in having, that she'd rather have none at all then one like that because it was just too painful to have it the other way.

That's a constant refrain "it's too painful to keep things up like this." I.e, you aren't meeting my irrational, inappropriate demands, which makes me think you don't love me (despite your thoughtful explanations of why you can't do these things and constant reassurance that you do love me and want to be there for me), and if I think you don't love me then I don't have all the control in this situation -- so the only way I can take the control back is by being the one to end things. Then it's back to being on my terms again, and  you have to come crawling back, groveling and apologizing, if you want me in your life again.

So, I would LOVE controlled contact, but I've never seen it work. Maybe one day, but my attempts over the past few years have been fruitless. I think I've made some very strong attempts, too--with the support of my therapist I've engaged in some conversations with my mother that I really felt proud of how I handled myself, where I did everything by the book in handling a BPD (not engaging in attacks, sticking to the facts, maintaing boundaries while still reassuring her that I loved her and cared about her, etc. etc.). But it hasn't worked.

[Clearmind]

In theory yes. However I fear that if I am the first one to reach out right now, it will only reinforce that her punishment through NC has worked.

Controlled contact is not so much “giving in” or reinforcing bad behavior is having contact, at your pace and speed complete with good boundaries.

I keep most of my conversations with my father superficial – we can get deep however it’s timed appropriately and with how I feel.

Mindfulness, often we feel like we have no personal power or control when we have a r/s with a BPD parent – the opposite is in fact true! We can prove we care by backing away from conflict, not engaging in the attacks, not counter-attacking – this shows emotional maturity on our part to know when we need to act. Act in the moment by:

1.   removing yourself if things even look like they are about to escalate – don’t wait, don’t justify, don’t explain. Simply remove yourself

2.   If on the phone – “Mom I love you, however I will talk to you when you calm down”

These types of boundaries, which protect us, provide us with options – which in turn help us to feel like we do have control over the contact or level of contact.

In the past, I know I contributed to the conflict – I soon learnt what it meant to step out of the drama and not get involved. This has reduced the conflict.

It's all a big manipulation). So when I have attempted to be reasonable and use controlled contact that's usually just enraged her further. Once a few years back after a period of NC I told her I didn't think we needed to talk every day or see each other once a week, as we had been, that it was getting to be too much and we could still be close and have a strong relationship with less dependence on each other (of course I said "dependence on each other" to imply that we both played a role, when in reality it was all her dependence on me). She freaked out at that and said she did NOT think that was reasonable and that that was not the kind of relationship she was interested in having, that she'd rather have none at all then one like that because it was just too painful to have it the other way.

Yes I hear you! I began by not answering calls straight away. I moved back at a slow pace.

Then it's back to being on my terms again, and  you have to come crawling back, groveling and apologizing, if you want me in your life again.

We expect our BPD parents to get it! Our expectations of what we would like them to “just” get won’t happen.

Acceptance and freedom is accepting our parents for who they are, not what we would like them to be. We need to reframe our idea of the “perfect parent”. If we expect all that you mention mindfulness, we will be constantly disappointed.

Once I accepted my fathers limitations, I began to see our r/s in a different light.

All the best to you.

[donniesgrrl]

In theory yes. However I fear that if I am the first one to reach out right now, it will only reinforce that her punishment through NC has worked. Also, I have to be honest when I say it sometimes just feels easier to stay NC and not have to deal with her at all. In my experience, controlled contact has not ever worked with her. She is very all or nothing -- if you aren't willing to have the relationship on her terms, then she'd rather not have it all (you can't prove you love her by meeting her unreasonable/impossible demands, and therefore you deserve to be punished by not having her in your life; she thinks that if she does this the punishment will be so painful for me that I will eventually relent and give in to the demands. It's all a big manipulation). So when I have attempted to be reasonable and use controlled contact that's usually just enraged her further. Once a few years back after a period of NC I told her I didn't think we needed to talk every day or see each other once a week, as we had been, that it was getting to be too much and we could still be close and have a strong relationship with less dependence on each other (of course I said "dependence on each other" to imply that we both played a role, when in reality it was all her dependence on me). She freaked out at that and said she did NOT think that was reasonable and that that was not the kind of relationship she was interested in having, that she'd rather have none at all then one like that because it was just too painful to have it the other way.

That's a constant refrain "it's too painful to keep things up like this." I.e, you aren't meeting my irrational, inappropriate demands, which makes me think you don't love me (despite your thoughtful explanations of why you can't do these things and constant reassurance that you do love me and want to be there for me), and if I think you don't love me then I don't have all the control in this situation -- so the only way I can take the control back is by being the one to end things. Then it's back to being on my terms again, and  you have to come crawling back, groveling and apologizing, if you want me in your life again.

So, I would LOVE controlled contact, but I've never seen it work. Maybe one day, but my attempts over the past few years have been fruitless. I think I've made some very strong attempts, too--with the support of my therapist I've engaged in some conversations with my mother that I really felt proud of how I handled myself, where I did everything by the book in handling a BPD (not engaging in attacks, sticking to the facts, maintain boundaries while still reassuring her that I loved her and cared about her, etc. etc.). But it hasn't worked.

I am in the middle of this very conflict. I left the ball in her court and said if you would like to move forward and have a relationship this is how it is going to be, I love you and want you in our lives but it has to be this way in order for it to be healthy.  I have not heard from her other than a few scant text messages to handle 'business" matters like tickets for my daughters dance recital and whether or not we would be coming to Easter (we are not).  I am familiar with this behavior as she does/did the same thing to my step sisters over the years.  

With me it is worse because I was ALWAYS the one who stayed or stood up for her.  The Fixer if you will, I would listen to her blather on about how this person did her wrong or this person is not meeting her needs, etc. etc.  and when I had my Breakthrough crisis and basically said enough is enough she has basically cut me off.  I know it is supposed to be a punishment but to be honest I feel so free, so peaceful, so much more organized and less stressed.  My husbands and I relationship has improved 10 fold, I have more energy, I have formed some really close bonds with other mother figures in my life whose relationships I had neglected and/or ignored for fear of how my mom would feel.  

I feel guilty because of the set of morals I was given growing up but I really don't feel guilty for any reason other than that.  :)o I hope that someday we will have controlled contact and can have some sort of a relationship? ABSOLUTELY, however I am not going to sit around waiting for it to happen.  I left the ball in her court and if she is happy then so be it, I will move forward with a lot more people in my life than I ever realized I had and I will be OK.  

It sounds like you are in a very similar place and I wanted you to know that you are not alone, if you ever need support or need to talk feel free to message me  

[mindfulness]

It sounds like you are in a very similar place and I wanted you to know that you are not alone, if you ever need support or need to talk feel free to message me  

Wow, yes, everything you wrote just really spoke to me. Thank you so much for commenting. Our situations sound so similar.

I have not heard from her other than a few scant text messages to handle 'business" matters

Same for me. She will contact me and ask me to send her a document of hers that I have. Also, unfortunately, I have her cat at the moment (I took the cat when the hurricane first hit and we were still talking) so she will periodically email to ask how the cat is doing. I keep my responses short and to the point. "Sure, I will put it in the mail to you tomorrow. The cat is doing fine." Of course this means that once she is back in her house I will probably have to have some sort of contact with her again for her to take the cat back. I'm dreading this.

The Fixer if you will, I would listen to her blather on about how this person did her wrong or this person is not meeting her needs, etc. etc.

Wow, once again, I feel like you are reading my mind! Every day it's a new 20 minute rant about a fight she got into at the post office, or at work, and isn't that person so horrible (of course in reality as soon as I hear the story it is clear that SHE was in the wrong, almost never is it truly the other person). And if I ever DARE to question it (i.e., "Well, I can see why her feelings may have been hurt... . " then I get totally attacked and denigrated, usually in the form of something like "Well it's not like you're so nice to people, either. Remember the time you {insert whatever random anecdote from years ago}?" I'm not allowed to not listen, because then I don't care, and I'm not allowed to disagree or question how she handled it, because then I'm just putting her down and being cruel. The only option is to essentially repeat "yes, you're so right, you handled it so well" over and over. And even THEN, if I'm not offering more specific feedback, then she will accuse me of not really listening/caring. MY GOD it is exhausting.

 I know it is supposed to be a punishment but to be honest I feel so free, so peaceful, so much more organized and less stressed.  My husbands and I relationship has improved 10 fold, I have more energy

Yes, TOTALLY agree. My relationship with my husband is better. He is torn because he doesn't want to see me have no relationship with my mother for the rest of my life, but on the other hand, he sees how much more peaceful things have been since the NC and how much abusive she is to me when we are in contact. When the prospect of her contacting me again comes up, he gets the same sense of dread I do. "Oh no, are we going to have to go back to the hysteria and drama again? Is this really how we're supposed to live the rest of our lives, with her constantly furious at you and constantly starting fights? Isn't it easier to just not deal with her?" And it's hard for me to argue with him, because in truth, although it pains me to admit it, I agree.

Like you, I would love controlled contact, but I don't know how reasonable it would be to expect that. She has made it clear she is not interested in that kind of relationship. Unless this becomes too hard for her and she relents -- but she is not one that ever "gives in" first. She has to be right, no matter what, even if it means friendships and relationships ending over that need. I can't count on two hands the number of "falling outs" she's had over stupid fights, regretted, but then been unwilling to get over by just apologizing to a person and moving on (as we all know, BPDs are not so good at saying sorry-- I can't remember a time in my life my mother ever apologized to me. Not once).

I have formed some really close bonds with other mother figures in my life whose relationships I had neglected and/or ignored for fear of how my mom would feel.  

Another ditto moment. My mom had basically made it clear to me that any relationship with my father, his wife, or his family, would be the ultimate betrayal to her. For years I lived in fear of her and had no contact with any of them. It caused a huge fight before my wedding as she tried to stop me from inviting my dad's brother and basically relegated my dad to the position of an outcast at his own daughter's wedding (only got away with it because he wasn't paying towards anything). I stood my ground, but she was furious and accused me of "choosing an uncle over a mother." I'm glad I didn't give in to her, although I regret not standing up for my father and his wife more and protecting them from her attempts to ostracize them. That being said, like you, I am trying to rekindle some of these relationships. Particularly my relationship with my dad. She has caused me to completely sabotage things with him, and I started a lot of fights with him over the years out of a sense of loyalty to her -- I sensed I was pleasing her by being angry with him. Also, some of the few times she has been very maternal and caring towards me are when I have fights with my father. All of a sudden she is there to help me through a hard time and support me. So I subconsciously started fights with him and made him out to be the villain in an attempt to get those maternal behaviors from her. I was only a teenager / early 20s then, and I was still steeped in the cycles of her manipulation--not in therapy yet and didn't understand what she or I were doing-- but now that I am older I have a lot of guilt and regret about what I put my father through. He hasn't been perfect, either, but he's much more of a parent then she is able to be and I'm trying to patch things up with him. Without her in the picture, it's become so much easier because I don't have to lie about seeing him or live in fear of her reaction if she finds out, etc. etc.

Sorry for all the ranting -- you know how it goes when we find another person who has lived through a similar situation. It is so comforting. Thanks again for your post and support! Your story really makes me feel better about my situation

[XL]

It's such a self-fulfilling prophecy. They're so scared of losing people that they actively annoy them out of the picture. It's crazy making to try to help, because they don't want the problem fixed. They want someone to rage at.

I only react if a specific demand is asked, that I would help a reasonable friend with. Like if my mom's car breaks and she's stranded, I'll help. If she wants me to rearrange my whole schedule to accommodate some crazy demand she landed on, I won't help.

I agree; "actual" disasters are worse, because we are nice people inclined to help others. I'm trying to work on "low contact through others" (ie. passing along the number for repair people, sending references for other types of support, offering to remotely call the tow truck, etc.). Honestly, that usually gets rejected for one reason or another, but at least the ball isn't in my court anymore.

This is hard for well-adjusted people to understand. They think fixing the problem IS the problem. So many of my boyfriends have offered to DIY remodel my mom's house. They never got that it wasn't even an option. It's not about the broken sink or car; it's about the fact they want you in their scope to dump their craziness on. The ACTUAL favor is "Can you please stand her for an hour while you watch me cry and scream?" You know? So, no. I wouldn't do that if it were phrased like that, and I wouldn't feel bad about it.

And they're standing there with a wrench breaking the sink on purpose to get you to come over too. So... . extra "no", with even less guilt.

[donniesgrrl]

The ACTUAL favor is "Can you please stand her for an hour while you watch me cry and scream?" You know? So, no. I wouldn't do that if it were phrased like that, and I wouldn't feel bad about it.

I know this was not meant in a humorous way but I LOL'd, because it is so crazy and true that it is funny.  I cannot remember how many times during the Holidays I would offer to help get everything ready for Family coming over and she would never take the offer, however, on the actual day of Christmas she would just rage at everyone about how no one helps her, and we all are failures and, we should just shut up and appreciate anything she does for us, because she is the great and wonderful one and if she only had help she wouldn't behave this way.

God it feels good to know I am not the only one, I can not express enough how alone I felt in all of this until I found these boards.  I truly thought I was the only one, because no one I know ever had these problems.

Of course this means that once she is back in her house I will probably have to have some sort of contact with her again for her to take the cat back. I'm dreading this

.

I would suggest a completely neutral location, and one that does not involve a restaurant.  Meet give back the cat and go about your day.  Do not go alone either.  I never go to things involving that side of the Family without my Husband, if he has to work I make an excuse.  I am not strong enough yet to be around them alone or just me and the kids, to be honest I don't know that I ever will be. 

Wow, once again, I feel like you are reading my mind! Every day it's a new 20 minute rant about a fight she got into at the post office, or at work, and isn't that person so horrible (of course in reality as soon as I hear the story it is clear that SHE was in the wrong, almost never is it truly the other person). And if I ever DARE to question it (i.e., "Well, I can see why her feelings may have been hurt... . " then I get totally attacked and denigrated, usually in the form of something like "Well it's not like you're so nice to people, either. Remember the time you {insert whatever random anecdote from years ago}?" I'm not allowed to not listen, because then I don't care, and I'm not allowed to disagree or question how she handled it, because then I'm just putting her down and being cruel. The only option is to essentially repeat "yes, you're so right, you handled it so well" over and over. And even THEN, if I'm not offering more specific feedback, then she will accuse me of not really listening/caring. MY GOD it is exhausting.

The funny thing is the people she was usually most complaining about was my Stepsisters, but now she is all buddy buddy with them.  It's her pattern, my Older sister is smart enough to know what is going on.  My younger sister realizes it but is still allowing herself to become enmeshed.  Not to the level I was but enough to where she is now getting the sob stories and complaints about me from her. 


I think the only thing that really gets to me is that, she never once calls or even texts to check on the kids, I really don't give a s*&t if she calls me or texts me to find out about my life, but as a grandma she should see how the kids are doing once in awhile.  At family events she showers them with affection and pretends to be the perfect grandma.  It is sick really, and I don't know that I want to subject my kids to it anymore, because in the long run it will only hurt them.  It is really sad because they are great kids, and it isn't fair to them to be pawns in her games.  I relish in the fact though that they have 2 other sets of Grandparents who adore them and love them unconditionally, so even if they have the void of my mom and step dad, they will be A-OK.

I am glad I could help someone else some.  I am still pretty early in this whole process, but it has a calming effect when I am able to help or even empathize with someone going through something so confusing and crazy.

[OnlyChild]

Mindfullness,

One of the hurts with this is that you are deprived the experience of being helpful to your parent... . something us children of BPDs seem to accommodate all too well. 

XL said it best:  It's such a self-fulfilling prophecy. They're so scared of losing people that they actively annoy them out of the picture. It's crazy making to try to help, because they don't want the problem fixed. They want someone to rage at.

I would add that with all the wolf-crying when a real crisis occurs it is probably more devistating to the child of the BPD because we can rationalize that this time the crisis is really real, but maybe too late at that point.

My uBPD mom had health problems for most of my life.  Every trip to the doctor was a life-threatening event; including having a tooth removed. 

Someone told me that she (uBPD mom) will take what you give her, so only give what you are willing.   I tried this after a month of NC.  Of course she pushed for more and eventually I caved to her wishes.    The guilt of not "being there" when they need you is terrible.   I think we need to remember that no matter what we do, it will never be enough.   They will take what we give and although it's not enough for them, it would be enough according to a non-BPD's standard. 

I'm so sorry you are struggling with this.   Isn't it wonderful that we have this blog of people who get where we are coming from and what we are experiencing!

[NonBPDaughter]

Hi Mindfulness, and Donniesgirl

I know what you mean. But just keep working on your self talk, and reinforcing to yourself how absurd your guilt really is. Word for word almost, all our stories are the same, if nothing else this should reinforce to us that its NOT US! And also reaffirm what clearmind is saying... . with work (it aint easy) we can get to a better place. All our borderlines are the same, others before us are ok, if we just keep going we will be too.

I am in a period of NC with my uBPD mum. I have been putting boundaries in place, and what do you know, she didnt follow script. Then I realised the script wasnt for her, it was for me. I can also change myself, unfortunately I cannot force the hand of a 51 year old woman (my mother).

My mother is not far off financially destitute. She works, but has no savings, no property she owns, she has quite severe lupus and arthritis (personally i think there is a link between lupus and BPS after reading similar stories on these boards but thats another conversation all together!). She wont be able to work forever. I feel so guilty right now, we are in a period of NC after a huge rage episode. I know that she wont make contact, she doesnt feel like she has any reason to be sorry, or that she did anything wrong. In her eyes its all because im a bad daughter. I dont need to explain to anyone on here!

BUT, to deal with the guilt i just have to remind myself... . she is an ADULT. She will be fine. She has been this way forever. I am not in a position to take care of her financially, plain and simple. And Onlychild is right, it will always just be another problem. Theres nothing we can do because its not us.

My advice would be to enjoy the break. If your like me and not brave enough to go full NC, you will need it. I keep one thing in mind- theres no shades of grey with these mums, its either all or nothing. So this is it... . its not like she can rage harder, or give you a more silent treatment is it? this is it. so enjoy the peace and quiet and try and heal yourself for the next battle. because believe me, there will be one! She will come back to you in her own time. I know at some stage i will have to address what happened. But i dont feel up to it just yet. So im enjoying the quiet time. The problems not going to go away is it! Good luck everyone x