Too strict?

[pandamama]

d17 is home after overdose (unintentional, she says, but on anxiety meds she stole from me) and 9 days of inpatient treatment, and we've set guidelines for her for the first couple weeks/month. In the months leading up, she spent nearly all her time in her very dirty room, online and/or texting friends, cutting. We know she was deeply depressed and feel the alone time was a breeding ground for negative thinking/suicidal thoughts. So here are the guidelines:

No cell

No internet access

Must stay on same floor as us

Bedtime/lights out 10pm, door open

Initial contact with closest friends to catch them up, then no communication for 2 weeks during outpatient treatment, except snail mail

She feels we are treating her like an animal, that these are not proportionate to the act and that we are punishing her. She's also adamant that there's nothing wrong with her, she's not "broken" and doesn't need to be fixed.

I'm torn (as always). I want to encourage wellness through trusting her, but I feel like she doesn't see how significant her choices have been.

Are we being unreasonable?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

I understand your desire to protect her from what enables her to stay ill.  I also understand that taking away technology and access to friends seems like an extremely harsh  sentence to teenagers.  

I think the important issue here is as you said "trust" and protection.  Conveying to her that trust is earned and that because she has poor boundaries you have to intervene to help protect her until she is better equiped to protect herself may be a productive route to explore with her.  When my d was in rtc we explained to her that because she had no boundaries and we were responsible for her safety and well being that her world kept getting smaller and smaller so that we could manage her safety.  It got so small that she was now living in a microcosm (the rtc).

When my d returned from rtc we slowly introduced back into her life the world at large... .   The ability to contact her friends and have access to technology.  For example, we did not give her a cell phone right away.  We allowed her to use  my phone and not erase messages.  Once she used the technology to do no harm she earned trust and earned her own phone.  She was only allowed to be on face book if I was in the room.

When it came to having time with friends they were allowed to come to our house.  We slowly allowed her more freedom to hang out in public places with us nearby.  As she proved herself trust worthy we increased her privileges to go to their homes and stay overnight with them.

Hope there is something helpful for you here.

lbj

[vivekananda]

Hi pandamama and welcome!

You must have had an especially hard time recently. I am pleased to tell you that there is hope for change.

lbj has given some very wise feedback.

I would like to add that if you are sure of your values, and if the boundaries are based on those values, then you are, I think, definitely on the right track.

I don't know if you have read the information here on 'value based boundaries'. If you can't find it, I'll send you a link, ok?

cheers,

Vivek    

[pandamama]

Conveying to her that trust is earned and that because she has poor boundaries you have to intervene to help protect her until she is better equiped to protect herself may be a productive route to explore with her. 

That is pretty much what has been explained to her probably 5 times in the past week, and multiple times before when we were trying to enforce boundaries which she resisted and resented. She SERIOUSLY resents the idea that she has poor boundaries and would do something "stupid." To her it shows lack of trust in her with little basis; she was generally a good kid until about a year ago, good grades, never in trouble at school, etc. She implies that we've assumed that she's a bad person for so long that she can't do anything right anyway; basically that we drove her to this state of mind. And it's hard for me not to wonder... .

[lbjnltx]

I understand pandamama,

My d didn't get it either pre rtc.  We just kept our boundaries in place and stood firm.  It's rough!

[Being Mindful]

Hello pandamama,

In thinking about some ideas, I am wondering how you are using the term boundaries. Sometimes it is used to apply rules or trying to make them adhere to our home contracts. Sometimes it is used to described our value based boundaries. How are you using it in your post? Looking forward to hearing from you.

Being Mindful

[jellibeans]

pandamama

No cell ... . I agree that needs to be earned... . I started by letting her have her own phone for an hour at a time and that was if she was being respectful etc... .

No internet access... . This was to be done for homework pursposes only. She not allowed to have a facebook or twitter account

Must stay on same floor as us... . is your house really large? not sure I understand this one

Bedtime/lights out 10pm, door open... . when my dd would come home she wouldn't have a door for the first few days... . that is something she need to earn back

Initial contact with closest friends to catch them up, then no communication for 2 weeks during outpatient treatment, except snail mail... I think that is a good approach but knowing how hard it is for my dd to keep friends I would not limit this too much. lbj had a good approach with allowing gradual contact over time.

I don't think you are being too strict but when they think there is nothing in there life to live for it can cause more depression so I think a balance is good. I think it is important to present these boundaries not as a punishment... . which I think it is easy to see them that way... . but as a safety precaution... . I hope your dd is doing good and your family can get through this hard time.  

[JKN77]

She implies that we've assumed that she's a bad person for so long that she can't do anything right anyway; basically that we drove her to this state of mind. And it's hard for me not to wonder... . [/quote]
pandamama, she is manipulating you here and shifting blame so she doesn't have to take responsibility for her actions. Don't go down this road. I know it is hard (very hard) not to. My son accused me of doing the same thing. What I told him was that "no, I don't think you are a bad person, infact I think you are a great person with many good qualities, but sometimes you do make bad desicions and unfortunately there are consequences that go with those decisions.

The world out there is a very dark place. The music these kids listen to, the movies and shows they watch, th internet, the virtual life taking the place of the real one, all the texting and relationships on facebook instead of comunicating in person. I once discovered my son was having this virtual relationship with this girl he met on facebook and they were creating this weird virtual fantasy.

I think what you are doing is good. The only thing I would add is to have no music with ear buds, you have to approve of the music in your home. I would also have good music playing low in the background whenever she is home. Have family game night or watch movies together. If she is used to spending all that time in her room she is not going to know what to do with her time at home so you need to help her find positive things to do while at home. Maybe the two of you could start a project together like ceramics or making a quilt.

The way I word it when I made changes in my home was "our home needs to be a place of love, safety and a refuge from the outside world where the whole family can feel at peace and welcome, in order for that to happen we all have to make changes - all of us. Some of those changes are that we only allow positive things into our home whether it be music, texting, internet, tv, books,  whatever. This is something the whole family will do together".

[jellibeans]

JKN77

excellent suggestions... . we did some bowling nights and I think it helped our family too... .

[Kate4queen]

my son once spent almost an entire summer with nothing in his room except his bed, no cell, no laptop, and grounded.

What did it achieve?

Nothing except he sat with the rest of us and fermented ill will and discord until we could no longer sit down for a meal together or do anything as a family.

We did it because we thought we were setting tough boundaries, but in retrospect, I think we were still trying to force him to conform to our standards and punish him.

What I've realized from finding out he has BPD and from these boards is that I can set boundaries for Me and I have to let go of my preconceived conceptions for how I expected a child of mine to behave. He's not playing the same game as me. He's not able to.

If I'd known that then, I would've put it back on him to earn back privileges which gave him something to aim for and to be honest would've helped with the negativity in our house. You've been given some great suggestions above.

You certainly have a right to your own boundaries in your own home.

[pandamama]

Kate4Queen, thank you so much for your candid and reflective response. I know the theory behind the boundaries but (no offense to others here) but I wonder how much of the advice is based on what others have said that others have said that experts have said, you know? I am in a perpetual state of self-doubt, not feeling that any route is best. I have to wonder what our motivation truly is. I want her to learn, to grasp the impact of her choices and behaviors. But am I also just wanting to have control over her? I really don't know.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

My dd32 would call her dad and ask for money. He always gave it to her. This was where we were about a year ago when I first came to this place. Finally after considerable discussion, argument etc, he agreed that we would pay when we saw receipts or invoices. She has not asked for money since.

This boundary for me was based on respect. If she had respect for us, she would allow us to have some opportunity upon which to base the decision to give her money. Ultimately it was about her having some respect for our financial situation and our need to budget and plan. It could no longer be just a call for a cool few thou. There was a process in place.

The calls for money were divisive. I felt she was manipulating dh and using the situation to further put a barrier between us. She was not talking with me at all. This for us was decisive. It was the beginning of our changing of ourselves to be in a better position to have a relationship with our dd.

Now the consequences of this meant dh and I were together on this, we were becoming more aware of how to work with dd and BPD, our lives suddenly and dramatically became more peaceful. Of course, changing a life of 32 years of behaviours doesn't happen with ease. You would need to know that our relationship with dd is less than desirable with her being more or less n/c. But our lives are peaceful and we are well. This wasn't the case beforehand.

Before we used values based boundaries our lives were anxious, desperate, deeply sad and distressing. We argued immensely and all the while we were intensely worried about our dd.

Boundaries is not the whole answer, it is the beginning of change though. I understood none of this at the time. I just did it because nothing else had worked.

All that I say here has been based on my own personal experience, nothing more.


Vivek    

[XL]

The world out there is a very dark place. The music these kids listen to, the movies and shows they watch, th internet, the virtual life taking the place of the real one, all the texting and relationships on facebook instead of comunicating in person. I once discovered my son was having this virtual relationship with this girl he met on facebook and they were creating this weird virtual fantasy.

I think what you are doing is good. The only thing I would add is to have no music with ear buds, you have to approve of the music in your home.

I need to disagree with this; I know some very well adjusted, kind, professionally employed adults with advanced degrees who like dark music, clothing, movies, etc. Access to music, clothing choices and entertainment are how teenagers develop their own personalities, and in some cases is an immense relief to them. You can limit their choices if it is becoming problematic (like playing video games 6 hours a day and skipping homework). I would view "quality control" of their preferences to be a point of over-control which will have a backlash.

-----

I had a lot of pretty damaged friends in school, with pretty abusive households. One in particular was on the far end of the BPD spectrum and was always on suicide watch. The main problem was that she didn't develop a concept of outcomes to her behavior. Her parents did all of the "privilege earning" parenting, (":)on't swear for 4 days and you get your phone back." but they never sat her down and helped her formulate logical outcomes to her behavior. She'd earn the car keys back after an arbitrary amount of time, but never had to explain out loud what would happen to the lives of others if she wrecked the car. It's like she fundamentally lacked the ability to hypothesize potential outcomes, and no one intervened to teach her that skill. It was almost like a learning disability.

When we were college roommates she totally lost it, and was the only BPD person I went totally NC with. She could not wrap her head around the process of "If I pay the rent late, then  hit__ will happen" "If I sell drugs out of the house, _____is likely to occur." She thought she could get away with anything, and was looking forward to the fight that would happen when she was punished.

As an adult, she kept looking for friends to fill that surrogate "warden" role, and it blew up in her face. No one in her peer group was interested in creating structure, doling out privileges, or playing disappointed parent. We just kicked her ass to the street when she got violent.

Arbitrary privileges (earning the phone back, etc.) won't do much good, unless the kid is desperate to make things right and earn parent approval. You might be setting the kid up to think about YOUR current happiness. Make mom happy, get the phone back. Problem being: the kid is already mad at you, and doesn't WANT you to be happy. She's going to start enjoying the immediate reward of pissing you off more. In fact, it will be immensely satisfying to her.

The real focus needs to be "What choices are the best path towards happiness for your future self?" What goals does SHE have that reckless behavior could ruin, for her and her alone?

You might want to search for the "spoiler" role in the wikipedia on dysfunctional families. That was absolutely what my former friend was up to. As I understand it, one kid sets themselves up to be a disappointment because the parent seems to enjoy the act of being disappointed, and the kid enjoys the attention of being persecuted.

[lbjnltx]

Our kids don't learn from their mistakes like a regular teen.  I think their intense emotions and sense of inner shame leads them to self preserve by projecting.  If you don't own your mistakes you don't learn from them.

I totally agree w/Vivek ananda that value based boundaries are/were key to our family's recovery.  If we don't have boundaries individually (daughter included) we cannot get the respect we need from others and we endanger the relationship.

Boundaries are not about controlling someone else.  They are about protecting self and what is important to you.  Healthy boundaries help keep us in relationships.  Setting value based boundaries was the beginning of major changes for the better.

As parents of minor children we are responsible for their safety and to some degree their choices (legally).  The goal is not to control them or make those choices for them, the goal is to guide them within a safe structure to make healthy choices for themselves. 

When our kids are emotionally fragile and very open to whatever the world throws at them... . looking for a place to fit in and be accepted the dark corner beckens them.  We all know that the more a parent says "no don't go there" the more they will desire to find their way to the  dark corner.  We can provide alternatives, express our concern, use positive reinforcement instead of negative consequences.  When the natural consequences of their choices come we must have the strength within ourselves to let them feel the pain of their choices... . not rescue them.  If we rescue them that is more about us being unwilling to suffer beside them.

Believing we have control is an illusion.  Think about it... . what do we actually have any control over other than ourselves?  Using our time and energy where it is most effective (working on self) will have benefits for us and our kids (being a living example of what we would like for them to achieve) or we can focus our time and energy on trying to change someone we have no control over (everyone else) and become frustrated, scared, angry and stay stuck.

We get to choose.

[Being Mindful]

This is an excellent discussion. I would like to add that like Vivek  and lbj that naming my value based boundaries and enforcing them was the first major change that led to a whole new better world for me and my daughter. It was the change that led to other skills. Boundaries helped me get off of the hamster wheel and become healthier myself, then opening myself up to all the other skills and eventually radical acceptance (still have trouble with this).

Being Mindful

[pandamama]

I do need to provide some details here.

The overdose: she stole about 30 pills of my prescription meds, specifically 10 Atavan, and took them to school. She took 3 atavan, told a friend, took 3 more, they took her to the nurse, then she popped the last 4 while in the nurse's office. She admits she did it to ease anxiety and also to get attention. That much of her behavior, suicidal and disturbed sketches, and offensive clothing has been attention-seeking. She said she did not intend to kill herself.

History: After turmoil in November over a way-too-old bf (whom she now says she never really liked but at the time threatened to kill herself over), my husband and I were so exasperated by the arguing and accusations of being overly controlling and not wanting her to be happy, we gave her space. She literally all spent non-school/non-work hours in her room, sitting on her bed, on the computer and/or texting. She didn't come down for dinner, she did her 10 minute chores half-___ed. She spent the time with the therapist complaining about us but being non-compliant when it became about her. She reminded us often that her friends were her family now, she can't wait to get away from us, and her only concern even while in the psych care was what her friends would think. She tells them different pieces of truth, based on (IMO) what she wants them to think of her. Most of them are internet friends, so she can control what they see. She's currently fixated on one guy here, and that is the one she wants to see. The music she wants to listen to is his favorite band.

Therefore: the restrictions are based on the past and the attempt to retrain her habits and keep those things out of her mind long enough to get other ideas in there, like healthy ways to spend time and paying attention to others. I am worried that she will comply only to gain her freedoms back, that she will actually fixate more on them. I just don't know what else to do.

[pandamama]

Can someone give some examples of value-based boundaries?

[lbjnltx]

Here is one of mine:

I value respect of all persons in my home.

Because I value respect of all persons in my home I will not participate in abusive verbal exchanges.

Because I will not participate in abusive verbal exchanges when this begins I will ask for everyone involved to take a time out.  If compliance doesn't come I will remove myself from the situation

[vivekananda]

Hi pandamama,

As the parent of a 'young adult', it is especially hard for you. I recall those times well and I am glad for you that you are here - I was a bit more alone than you sadly. When my dd was 17 I had real trouble with boundaries. My 'boundaries' were rules and dh disagreed because he was scared she would walk out (which she did anyway).

Primarily, the value of respect is central to my values. In my house respect is paramount. This means the common courtesies are expected. These are the behaviours that keep the wheels of civilisation turning I believe. Voices raised in anger would be dealt with in way that lbj set out. Fortunately for me now without dd in house, there is no problem with these boundaries.

When she was 17, one boundary was knowing where she was at all times. If I didn't I would worry and if I needed to contact her in case of emergency, I wanted to be able to (no mobiles back then  ). That is another boundary based on respect of me as her mum.

These years are a real challenge while you are legally responsible transitioning into having no legal say in things. It is a hard time for your dd and for you. The difficulty is in recognising that basically whether you are legally responsible or not, you ultimately have no control. You cannot make her do anything. So, if you can get her agreement about the values and then define the behaviours that stem from that, then you are on the way. I would think of it as trying to improve your relationship with her, while sticking to your values and basing your behaviour on those values. At that age, it is a fine line you are walking.

I am interested in what you think, let me know, ok?

cheers,

Vivek    

[JKN77]

Another thing I did when I was trying to make changes in my home. I wrote out a "Our Families Core Values" document. I outlined what our values as a family are, what each member of the family was expected to do to uphold these values, what we needed to do individually and as a family to achieve these values. It was very detailed and I printed it out on nice paper and a copy given to each member of the family so they could see it as something I valued.

I think what helped the most was that it also spelled out what was expected of my husband and I, this brought the focus off them and put it on all of us. The values were nothing new to me and most were not new to the kids but it is good to have them in writing so you can refernce it. This helps the kids to understand why the boundaries (rules) are put in place and to also help them to see consistancy in your decision making.

[vivekananda]

wow JKN77 that sounds like a good idea  cool!

Vivek    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

I would love to see your letter if you could post it... .   I think that is a great idea... .  

[JKN77]

I would be happy to with the understanding that we are Christians (LDS) and that my family core values are very strong in this area. I would not want to upset someone who may see my values in conflict with theirs.

[jellibeans]

If you want to send it to me privately that is fine but I do think that everyone could probably benefit from your letter whether they are christian or not... .   it is up to you... .   I know it is a hard line to walk but I am trying to write a letter right now and I am struggling with it.   

[JKN77]

OK. I will start a new thread and post it.

[sunshineplease]

Great discussion, and so timely, as we just had our first visit from ud18 in four months and we're trying to hobble together a plan for her to be able to come home eventually. Tough going! Thanks for all the ideas and clarification on boundaries and values.