Advice on avoiding the unavoidable?

[4now]

I don't know if I am committed to staying, but I think this is more of a "staying" issue than an undecided or leaving issue. 

For the past month I would say, it has been one episode after another with uBPDh.  It started with a lie I caught him in, then him saying he was leaving, then he "left" for a half day, then came back.  He has done this a dozen times in the past few years.  It was very traumatic at first for me and the 3 kids, but now I am fairly unaffected.  This past time I was kind of hoping he meant it. 

After this episode several weeks ago, things were ok for a day or two, then back to the same old tension. Again, he told me something that didn't make sense, about something fairly inconsequential, and he got really upset and said a bunch of stuff-total gaslighting. Anyway, he has made me so afraid for so many years to ask anything that finally I have my courage back and don't want to let him bully me anymore. 

He accused me of giving him the silent treatment, but I was simply going about my business and normal routine and wasn't ignoring any attempt on his part to speak to me.  He mentioned my lap-top usage, which he deems too much right now, and how I am obsessed with my school right now.  Obviously, he is/was feeling totally neglected.  Then he started in with the silent treatment with me.  I let him do it, didn't make any more attempts to converse.  Then again he started with the leaving.  He started with packing his stuff, clearing out some stuff from the basement, saying this was it, etc.  But, unlike other times, he started saying he was going to disappear.  He alluded to going away to another country and then to killing himself.  He also alluded to staying here in our town. He was all over the place.  Grasping at straws.  He said he wouldn't give me any money, that we would never see him again, etc.  None of this made me back down, except for the speak about disappearing.  Obviously, I care of he is thinking suicide or of never seeing his kids again.  Of course, now out of the situation I see how it was manipulation on his part.  I don't know if it's conscious on his part, but it was manipulation none the less. 

++++This leads to my question and where I need advice.  I would really, really like him to start seeing a therapist.  I mentioned this the other day and he seemed somewhat receptive.  I am afraid now that he won't feel the same.  But I feel 100% certain that without professional help he will continue to behave the same way.  How do I approach this and draw a boundary about it.+++

+++The second thing is this, he used to just leave.  Which hurt at first, but then it was better because I have three small kids and it makes the most sense for us not to have to leave.  He is upping the ante, however, and now won't just go.  It's like he knows that doesn't bother me so he wants to stay and argue or drag the leaving out with different excuses.  The problem with this is that my kids a lot of time bear witness to all of this.  Should I be the one to leave with them?  I don't know that calling the police and involving them is the right choice unless he is out of control or violent (which hasn't happened yet). Then if I do go somewhere, it won't be the end of it until he feels like he is satisfactorily back in control.  I feel at a loss of what to do... .   +++

It seems like I can't avoid any of this no matter what I do.  I can't keep my head down enough or be quiet enough, he has a problem with that now too.  He seems to have no control over any of it either.  It seems compulsive on his part, not pre-meditated.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

You had a bunch of serious questions in there... .   and I'm just going to address this:

But, unlike other times, he started saying he was going to disappear.  He alluded to going away to another country and then to killing himself.  He also alluded to staying here in our town. He was all over the place.  Grasping at straws.  He said he wouldn't give me any money, that we would never see him again, etc.  None of this made me back down, except for the speak about disappearing.  Obviously, I care of he is thinking suicide or of never seeing his kids again. 

Talking about suicide is serious stuff. Especially because it sounds like things with your uBPDh are escalating right now.

TOOLS: Dealing with threats of Suicide and Suicide Attempts

Please read on it so you are prepared if it happens again. One of the most important things is to get professional help. This response in that thread lists possibilities including 911 and other (less dramatic) options.

[arabella]

You posted this on the staying board but you sound like you are ready for him to leave - hoping that he will (minus the 'disappearing' bit). Are you trying to work on the relationship still? Or are you looking for a way out? Your situation doesn't sound healthy, especially with the children involved... .  

You can't make him see a therapist. Even if he agrees to go, there is no guarantee that the therapist will be able to help. Have you located someone who specializes in treating pwBPD? That's what you'll need. As for getting him invested in getting better... .   Often people don't seek treatment, or take it seriously, until they've hit rock bottom. He may not be there yet, but it sounds like he's on the path downward.

No, you can't make him leave. You can take your children and go, and maybe that's the healthiest option - do you have a plan in place? How easy will it be to round everyone up without escalating things or scaring the kids? Your other option is to legally separate from your H. If that's an option for you, don't wait for an 'incident' to occur. Get a lawyer, figure out your rights, and have him move out if possible. That may, unfortunately, be what it takes to break this cycle and get him into therapy.

[byasliver]

+++The second thing is this, he used to just leave.  Which hurt at first, but then it was better because I have three small kids and it makes the most sense for us not to have to leave.  He is upping the ante, however, and now won't just go.  It's like he knows that doesn't bother me so he wants to stay and argue or drag the leaving out with different excuses.  The problem with this is that my kids a lot of time bear witness to all of this.  Should I be the one to leave with them?  I don't know that calling the police and involving them is the right choice unless he is out of control or violent (which hasn't happened yet). Then if I do go somewhere, it won't be the end of it until he feels like he is satisfactorily back in control.  I feel at a loss of what to do... .   +++

This is very similar to my situation. I don't want to separate but I cannot tolerate his behavior any longer. When I have tried to set a boundary in the past (before I found bpdfamily.com) he would threaten to take our son and/or leave me penniless so I backed down. I am fortunate that we have an accountant that I could talk to regarding the financial matters without uBPDh finding out. He assured me that the money threats are almost impossible for uBPDh to carry out successfully. We have four kids so it makes the most sense for him to leave if he cannot control his behavior but the threats always scare me. I feel better now, though, after talking to our accountant. I can't stop uBPDh from taking our son without a court order but it is highly unlikely that a court would allow him to keep full custody of him. I did LOTS of research to reassure myself of those matters in the past week. Now, I just have to steel myself for the talk about boundaries that I'm going to have with him on Monday. I am scared to death but I know I have to do it. It isn't fair to us to be put through such torment and it isn't fair for our kids to have to witness it. Not just because they hurt when they see mom/dad hurting but also because they began to believe such behavior is acceptable.

I know it's a very difficult situation but there is tons of great support and resources on this site for helping you navigate your way through this. 

[allibaba]

I still don't know how to refer to a quote.  Maybe someone can point me to somewhere on this site where it explains how to do that... .  

**********  You said:

I let him do it, didn't make any more attempts to converse.  Then again he started with the leaving.  He started with packing his stuff, clearing out some stuff from the basement, saying this was it, etc.  But, unlike other times, he started saying he was going to disappear.  He alluded to going away to another country and then to killing himself.  He also alluded to staying here in our town. He was all over the place.  Grasping at straws.  He said he wouldn't give me any money, that we would never see him again, etc.  None of this made me back down, except for the speak about disappearing.  Obviously, I care of he is thinking suicide or of never seeing his kids again.

***********

This could have been my house.  When my uBPD husband feels abandoned or like I don't care then he starts to up the stakes.  For example saying that he is going to move to another country or threatening to disappear (seems suicidal) but its more about him getting the attention that he is craving than actually intending to disappear or harm himself.  I'm not in your shoes... .   just commenting on my own house.  This little scenario plays out about once a week in my house when my husband is in a bad place.  I usually say something like "well I love you and if you left I would miss you and it would be hard on us but if you need to then I understand".  Its my way of validating his value in the house without getting sucked into the drama.  In his calm moment my husband has said that when he acts like this he feels like he is someone else and he feels like a child trying to get attention.  He has assured me that he doesn't intend to leave nor does he ever intend to hurt himself... .   he just gets in a bad place and gets desperate.

I constantly try to remind my husband that he is important to me (he is) and address him in a loving way without ignoring him (its hard when he's full of it).  It usually stops these little dramas in their tracks.  It takes so much strength sometimes and I don't know where I find it.  Some days I worry about myself because putting this much into someone can't be healthy.  However, I am committed to my relationship and this is the path I have chosen.

What I have not effectively done yet is stop the verbal abuse.  Still tend to just ignore him which does nothing but make it worse and piss my husband off because once again he feels like I am not listening.

My husband has agreed for the first time to see a therapist after a meltdown last week.  I got lucky and had one who specializes in BPD lined up.  I feel grateful because I wouldn't want to send him to just anyone.  The wrong therapist could blow everything.

[arabella]

I still don't know how to refer to a quote.  Maybe someone can point me to somewhere on this site where it explains how to do that... .  

If there is a particular post you want to quote, there is a little 'Quote' tag in the top right corner of each post - click that and it will open a reply window with the content already inserted (you can then delete bits if you want). If you're already in a reply window, scroll down to the previous posts (under where you're typing) and you can hit 'Insert Quote' from the top right corner of any post and it will put that whole post wherever your cursor is hovering in your reply window (again, you can edit it). OR if you just want a certain piece and don't want to try to edit, highlight what you want, copy/paste it in your reply, highlight it again in your reply msg, then hit the little 'speech bubble' icon/button at the top of your reply window (second from the right, just above the row of smileys). Hope that helps!

My husband has agreed for the first time to see a therapist after a meltdown last week.  I got lucky and had one who specializes in BPD lined up.  I feel grateful because I wouldn't want to send him to just anyone.  The wrong therapist could blow everything.

I'm having this problem. DBPDh's doctor is making things worse by reinforcing BPD behaviour, focusing on completely random issues, blaming others for H's problems, etc.

[allibaba]

Thanks Arabella.  I think I got it figured out.  Sorry to hear about the therapist.  What a nightmare. 

[4now]

Grey Kitty-

I will definitely read that thread.  He didn't actually say he wanted to kill himself, but it was implied.  And in the past he has stated things like that more directly.  It has been a long time since he talked like though.  The other day, after that episode, he did say that he didn't mean he was talking about suicide.  He said he wouldn't kill himself.  I think in the desperation of the moment he was feeling like that and said it.  I will, however, read up on it in case it happens again.

[4now]

You posted this on the staying board but you sound like you are ready for him to leave - hoping that he will (minus the 'disappearing' bit). Are you trying to work on the relationship still? Or are you looking for a way out? Your situation doesn't sound healthy, especially with the children involved... .  

I think I have a hard time committing to working on it because of all the past hurts.  I am sure that this is impeding "us" making progress, but I guess I feel this need to protect myself.  I feel like if I truly open myself up to him and working on it, it will all blow up in some terrific way and I will be devastated.  There has been quite a bit of improvement in his behavior, compared to how it used to be.  But it moves at a snail's pace and it's hard to know if in the end things will be such that I will be happy with how they are.  I do love him, but it's so hard (as you all know) to feel 100% invested when you never know what crappy thing they are going to pull next.  Sometimes I feel like I wish he would just go, go find whatever it is he thinks will make him happy.  But the thought of it truly being over terrifies me.  I really don't want it to be over, I just want it to be better and for us to be happy.


As far as therapy, I know I can't force him to go.  I think he may be receptive, especially if I approach it as a team thing.  Like you get help, I get help, and let's work on it together.  The trouble is, how do you find someone who is qualified? 

[4now]

Byasliver-

It is strangely comforting to know that my situation isn't so unique!  This is the thing that kills me about all of it, I don't want my kids to have to deal with this any longer.  Everyone tells me how great my kids are and I am so proud of them.  Then I think, how in the heck can they be so well-adjusted?  There are things that are starting to surface in them, though, and I really worry that the older they get the more it will affect them.  


Also, I know you are going through some tough stuff right now.  I have read several of your posts, so hang in there.  I hope it all goes well.  This is all such hard stuff. I wish none of us had to deal with it.  

[4now]

I constantly try to remind my husband that he is important to me (he is) and address him in a loving way without ignoring him (its hard when he's full of it).  It usually stops these little dramas in their tracks.  It takes so much strength sometimes and I don't know where I find it.  Some days I worry about myself because putting this much into someone can't be healthy.  However, I am committed to my relationship and this is the path I have chosen.

You had a lot of good stuff in there!  I would agree that takes an incredible amount of strength and patience on your part.  Two things maybe I am lacking right now. 

I would agree that your approach is probably exactly what needs to happen.  You are definitely being the bigger person there.  Good for you!  During this last episode I ended up going up to him and just hugging him.  Which he seemed to appreciate.  I can imagine that my h is looking for reassurance from me and wanting me to say things like you just said you do.  I will try this type of approach next time and see what happens.  I think I have been so caught up in my own "stuff" that I haven't seen how much his behavior is really a cry for help and attention from me. 

[arabella]

I think I have a hard time committing to working on it because of all the past hurts.  I am sure that this is impeding "us" making progress, but I guess I feel this need to protect myself.  I feel like if I truly open myself up to him and working on it, it will all blow up in some terrific way and I will be devastated.  There has been quite a bit of improvement in his behavior, compared to how it used to be.  But it moves at a snail's pace and it's hard to know if in the end things will be such that I will be happy with how they are.  I do love him, but it's so hard (as you all know) to feel 100% invested when you never know what crappy thing they are going to pull next.  Sometimes I feel like I wish he would just go, go find whatever it is he thinks will make him happy.  But the thought of it truly being over terrifies me.  I really don't want it to be over, I just want it to be better and for us to be happy.

I feel this way a lot of the time too. It's almost an impossible position to be in. You desperately want it to get better but getting better might mean it gets worse first. Or it might get worse and never get better. I think it's just a calculated risk that you have to take. In the meantime, what can you do to minimize the damage if things don't go well? e.g. I've set up a separate bank account for myself, I've spoken to friends about staying with them if need be, I've briefed some family members so that I won't have to re-explain everything in a crisis, I've mentally imagined what I'd do in the worst case scenario (trying to lessen any potential shock, have some plans in place for auto-pilot mode), etc.

As far as therapy, I know I can't force him to go.  I think he may be receptive, especially if I approach it as a team thing.  Like you get help, I get help, and let's work on it together.  The trouble is, how do you find someone who is qualified? 

I'm edging my H toward finding a good therapist using this approach too. I told him I'm changing things about myself, speaking to my own therapist, etc. This way he knows I'm not just blaming him, that I realize we both need to be committed to making things better. I'm not sure what resources might be available where you are, but what you're looking for is someone who has experience in treating pwBPD. You can call your local hospital or psych clinics to see if they know of anyone in your area. There is actually a BPD treatment clinic run through my local hospital so that's where I'm going to call for a referral. Do an internet search for therapists in your area who specialize. Some T's just say they treat "personality disorders" - call them to ask if they have specific experience with BPD, even if they don't they may know another T who does. Really it's just networking until you find someone. You can even call clinics outside of your area - they may have lists for other locales (especially for when patients relocate, guest speakers, former colleagues, etc)

[Grey Kitty]

alibaba,

This was a side note in this thread, and I wanted to address it:

What I have not effectively done yet is stop the verbal abuse.  Still tend to just ignore him which does nothing but make it worse and piss my husband off because once again he feels like I am not listening.

You might want to start another post asking about that with some details of how it started and what you tried. (I'm trying not to hijack 4now's thread ) Meanwhile here are a few links to techniques that could help you here.

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

BOUNDARIES: Case studies

How to take a time out

[Grey Kitty]

The second thing is this, he used to just leave.  Which hurt at first, but then it was better because I have three small kids and it makes the most sense for us not to have to leave.  He is upping the ante, however, and now won't just go.  It's like he knows that doesn't bother me so he wants to stay and argue or drag the leaving out with different excuses.  The problem with this is that my kids a lot of time bear witness to all of this.  Should I be the one to leave with them?

I just posted links to the workshops on boundaries and taking a time out for alibaba, and I see that they would help you in this situation too, 4now.

You simply can't control another person's behavior. An argument is one thing. It can even be a good thing. But it can very rapidly become verbal abuse. (especially when arguing with a pwBPD!) At some point you will realize that it is going over the edge. That is time to use a boundary. Here's an example you might try... .  

I will not be verbally abused (or allow my children to be verbally abused or to witness the verbally abuse of me). When this starts, I will leave, and if appropriate, take my children with me.

Enforcing it has some options. You can start by saying "I will not stay here and be verbally abused" as you are getting ready to leave. He might immediately stop, possibly apologize, in which case you could choose to stay.

The next step is to leave the room.

If he tries to follow you through the house continuing the verbal abuse, leave the house. Drive away.

Note that enforcing the boundaries like this are all your actions and your choices. He isn't given a choice to obey or disobey your boundary. He can react (and likely will!) but these actions are yours.

If at any time he physically tries to stop you from leaving, that does qualify as physical abuse, and calling 9-1-1 is a good idea. If you are followed when driving away, a police station is a good destination.



It was easier for you when he left on his own. If he doesn't, you still need to protect yourself and your children. He doesn't have to like it.

Many of us on these boards have discovered that enforcing boundaries like that is very effective--first, it protects us from the abuse. Second, it "trains" our partner--they discover that we won't let them take difficult emotions out on us. So they find other (better) ways of dealing with their feelings. After a while, we find that the boundary doesn't need to be enforced because it isn't tested.

[byasliver]

Really getting a lot out of this thread. 

I have spent the last week working and reworking how I will approach a boundary talk with my uBPDh tomorrow. As the week has passed with Monday getting closer, my anxiety grew. I was in a really dark and sad place the last two nights and felt like nothing I did was going to work. Today, I woke with a different approach and attitude. I took some time to clear my mind, reflect on what I know to be true about H and myself and our r/s, and to seek spiritual guidance through prayer.

Before I continue, let me say that I am NOT knocking boundary setting but I don't think it will be the right approach for my situation. I have tried it before and no matter how I've approached it, he took it as an ultimatum and I can see why now. Instead, I'm going to sit him down next to me (not us sitting in separate chairs with distance between us), take his hands, look in his eyes and speak from my heart: tell him how I understand how he's been feeling, how I've been feeling, and ask him to work WITH me to correct things. We are not the enemies we have both acted like the other is. We are a team. I'm not saying I won't be firm in what I will/will not accept but rather than approach it as "this is not acceptable to me and it's on you to stop it," instead I'm going to approach it as "you must have a reason for this behavior, let's figure out what that is and work on it together." I can already see some of the longer members rolling their eyes.  I can admit this probably won't work for many and may not work for us. I have been through tons of stuff in the last 17 years of my life that have taught me to trust my instincts and THIS is what my instincts are telling me to do. I have felt TONS less anxious since making the decision.

Alibaba, I plan to use tons of validation, too. I've always believed that "kill 'em with kindness" is the best method and proven effective. I know it can be done without losing yourself.

4now, I truly do not know all the details of your situation so if I'm way off track here, just ignore me. Sounds like you two might be in a cycle my uBPDh and seem to be in: where we are both in a no win situation. He's struggling with his mental issues and has pushed me so far away when what he needs most is validation and reassurance. Oddly, because of the hurt he has inflicted due to his mental issues, I am desperately needing validation and reassurance, too. It only takes one of us to make the first step. That is what I'm attempting to do instead of the "boundary" talk. H and I have slept separately for months and have had VERY little physical contact of any kind. Tonight when he gets in from his trip, I plan to greet him with a genuine hug and smile and then approach the idea of sleeping in the same bed tonight (just sleep). I know that physical contact is important to him (even non-sexual) so I hope by taking this GIANT step towards him, it will break down those walls a bit and make him more receptive to talking tomorrow. Just food for thought for you to consider and maybe try. <shrug>

And just for the eye-rollers, I promise, if this completely blows up in my face, I will post here with egg on my face and my r/s will be OVER.

[arabella]

We are not the enemies we have both acted like the other is. We are a team. I'm not saying I won't be firm in what I will/will not accept but rather than approach it as "this is not acceptable to me and it's on you to stop it," instead I'm going to approach it as "you must have a reason for this behavior, let's figure out what that is and work on it together." I can already see some of the longer members rolling their eyes.

***

And just for the eye-rollers, I promise, if this completely blows up in my face, I will post here with egg on my face and my r/s will be OVER.

No one is going to roll their eyes at this (or at least, they shouldn't!) What you are proposing sounds like validation and... .   boundary setting! Setting boundaries, as I've been learning on bpdfamily.com, isn't about telling him what to do or not to do - it's about stating what you will and will not accept for yourself. No need to bash your H over the head with your boundaries (they are for you, not him) and your team approach sounds very positive and non-confrontational. Just remember that it's not all about his behaviour. If you're a team then make sure you acknowledge the ways in which your behaviour has contributed to the situation - this was a big thing for me, acknowledging my own contributions and failures but, ultimately, I'm the only person I can change so I need to step up and do that.

If this blows up I doubt that will be the end. Be patient. It may take time for him to acknowledge your olive branch. It may take a ride further downward before it starts to look up. It may just change the nature of the r/s and you'll have a new beginning of some sort. This is really tough stuff  - don't sell yourself short!

[byasliver]

arabella, I do plan to include talking about the things I have/n't done that he has talked about. They seemed trivial to me but maybe they are really huge to him. :-) I'm actually looking forward to him coming home now where before I had dreaded it all week! Amazing what a change in attitude can do for a person!

lena, please be careful with warnings. I know you mean well and I appreciate your intent. Honestly, though, even if my r/s with my H doesn't work out, I am a better person for having known him and we have a wonderful son. If I had seen and ran from the warning signs (I didn't recognize them when we met but would now), I would not be where I'm at now. Even with the hurtful things he has said and done, no regrets. Honestly.

[arabella]

arabella, I do plan to include talking about the things I have/n't done that he has talked about. They seemed trivial to me but maybe they are really huge to him. :-) I'm actually looking forward to him coming home now where before I had dreaded it all week! Amazing what a change in attitude can do for a person!

lena, please be careful with warnings. I know you mean well and I appreciate your intent. Honestly, though, even if my r/s with my H doesn't work out, I am a better person for having known him and we have a wonderful son. If I had seen and ran from the warning signs (I didn't recognize them when we met but would now), I would not be where I'm at now. Even with the hurtful things he has said and done, no regrets. Honestly.

You know what? With my H it isn't even whether the things I'm changing are a big deal or not, it's more that I'm recognizing that I have a role to play and that I'm not just dumping everything in his lap. It's that whole 'team' thing that you were talking about. It IS all about attitude sometimes!

Honestly, I too am a better person for having been with my dBPDh. I also have a dBPD friend and she is extremely dear to me. I wouldn't give back my overall experiences with these people for anything. (Umm, I'd happily give back some of the heartbreak if I could keep the rest though! )

[Grey Kitty]

byasliver, no   from me either--you do have to speak from your heart, and when you speak eagerly of doing it with genuine warmth, that sounds very right.

Especially with lots of validation mixed in. I'm wishing you the best on Monday!

I do have one bit of advice for you--Allow some time for it to sink in--Even if he handles what you have to say badly right off... .   give him lots of room to do things better in a day or two after he thinks about it!

[lena7]

lena, please be careful with warnings. I know you mean well and I appreciate your intent. Honestly, though, even if my r/s with my H doesn't work out, I am a better person for having known him and we have a wonderful son. If I had seen and ran from the warning signs (I didn't recognize them when we met but would now), I would not be where I'm at now. Even with the hurtful things he has said and done, no regrets. Honestly.

Byasliver, I like what you said about being a better person for having known our H, and that you have a wonderful son. Each one of us have different experiences with their pBPD.

Being in this relationship made me realize things about myself that I didn't know, like for example how patient and tolerant I am, and that affected my personality and my view in what life really is about.

It's good that I learned things by being in this relationship, but if I put the pros and the cons, the cons significantly outnumber the pros.  

I hope this doesn't come across as a rant, maybe I should've worded my advice differently, since I really don't know much about 4now's situation.  

[byasliver]

4now, we haven't heard an update from you. Hope you're doing okay.

lena, I really do appreciate what you had to say and I think it's a warning that needs to be given but maybe not as a "blanket" statement 

Tonight didn't quite go as expected but not badly. Son was too excited to see his room so we ran off to do that and by the time we were done, H was busy unloading the car. I tried to talk to him after but he has gotten behind on homework and needed to catch up. He did come find me a bit later and tried to talk and it was obvious he was sincerely trying but (1) he's tired after the long drive, (2) frustrated over being behind, (3) his voice still conveys a lot of negativity even though the words aren't necessarily negative. His response about my sleeping with him tonight? "I'm not going to stop you." :-|

Soo, he's going to be up late working (his desk is in the bedroom) so I'm sleeping elsewhere. I'm a very light sleeper and need to get to sleep so I can be up early to get the kids off to school, etc. We'll still have our talk tomorrow and I am still hopeful that the talking we did tonight has made him more receptive to what I need to say. It seems that way.

Ugh, tomorrow is Monday! Back to the grind! 

[byasliver]

egg on my face :'(

Everything has an excuse that is my fault. Contacting the ex? Trying to get a job with the company she works for because "you guys are bleeding me dry." Hidden accounts? For the insurance he has to pay for me and the kids (nevermind the fact that we now have to pay for insurance because he lost his job). Changing account passwords so I can't get into them? Because he wasn't sure if it was me that logged in or someone else (even though I told him I logged in.) And the real kicker? He said he knows I know all his passwords so he wouldn't use any of the accounts I know about to hide things - that was said to reassure me that he isn't hiding anything!   Only says to me that he IS hiding more. I've been lied to too many times in my life and even went through a rough spell where I was the liar so I know how the game is played and I know was true openness and honesty looks like. Not like this.

The only bright note? He wants me to go with him to an appointment this afternoon about possible therapy. At least, he did before we talked. It should be interesting because if they ask me about any behaviors I think they should know about, I know my answers will upset him. Which will either make them see just how he acts or they'll think we're both crazy!  (that's a nervous laugh there)

4now, I really hope you have been silent because you are taking some action. I know it's tough and scary as h*ll but it's better than continuing the way it is. Keeping you my thoughts and prayers. 

[arabella]

byasliver

Don't give up yet. This is just the beginning of a journey (a long one). Seeing a therapist together sounds like a good start. Don't play the blame game and remember that a third party is going to be able to point out the flaws in logic and see where the communication breakdown is occurring so that you can both be heard.

I know it's hard to hear someone make ridiculous excuses for their behaviour. Bear in mind that a lot of people (especially those with BPD) actually believe their own excuses though. It doesn't make it right, but it does change the dynamic when you're trying to get past it. He may or may not be lying to you about having other accounts or whatever. My H, when he feels cornered, starts spouting off all kinds of bizarre things that make it sound like he's lying or hiding something. Really he's just trying to confuse the issues or distract me so that he doesn't have to think about what he's actually done. A lot of it is gaslighting. I've stopping buying into it and that seems to help. Don't let your imagination get away from you but, at the same time, what are you going to do to protect your own interests and your children?

Keep your head up - you're going to need it!

[4now]

Hello everyone,

Just a quick note to say hi and everything is okay, for now!  I have been getting a lot out of this thread and will be back on to read over it all in more detail and post.

This thread is very positive and hopeful. Very female as well!

More soon.

[allibaba]

Grey Kitty

Thank you for the links.  I really, really appreciate them.

[byasliver]

So glad to hear from you 4now and that you sound positive!  Keep us posted!

Thanks, arabella. He tried to talk to me again but just more "egg". I'm not going to the therapist this afternoon with him because he called (with me sitting right there) and they said it would only be them asking him a lot of questions. I wouldn't get a chance to talk and I have heard enough today about how everything is my fault. Meeting with my therapist hopefully tomorrow (he may have been called for jury duty! ugh!) and will make some decisions. The talks H and I have had hurt but it is helping me see things more clearly.

[arabella]

Hello everyone,

Just a quick note to say hi and everything is okay, for now!  I have been getting a lot out of this thread and will be back on to read over it all in more detail and post.

This thread is very positive and hopeful. Very female as well!

More soon.

Looking forward to your update, 4now!

Thanks, arabella. He tried to talk to me again but just more "egg". I'm not going to the therapist this afternoon with him because he called (with me sitting right there) and they said it would only be them asking him a lot of questions. I wouldn't get a chance to talk and I have heard enough today about how everything is my fault. Meeting with my therapist hopefully tomorrow (he may have been called for jury duty! ugh!) and will make some decisions. The talks H and I have had hurt but it is helping me see things more clearly.

Have you discussed the possibility of couples therapy, with a new therapist? A good couples T isn't going to let either you starting blaming each other for the problems in your marriage and might give you a push in the right direction along with your own individual counselling. If your T is stuck on jury duty, is there a backup plan for you? (Definitely ask about this if you haven't already!)

[Grey Kitty]

This thread is very positive and hopeful. Very female as well!

Hey, I'm still here! Or did you lose me on the prior page of replies?  I do try to be positive and hopeful whenever I can!

He tried to talk to me again but just more "egg". I'm not going to the therapist this afternoon with him because he called (with me sitting right there) and they said it would only be them asking him a lot of questions. I wouldn't get a chance to talk and I have heard enough today about how everything is my fault.

 Sorry to hear it went badly. Remember... .   egg washes off. Consider your next shower to be therapeutic that way   Tomorrow is a new day, and a new chance for you to do your best at dealing with him.

My ears perked up at the mention of "fault" I've got thoughts for you on that:

1. You don't need to believe his statements that anything your fault.

2. You also don't need to convince him anything is his fault either.

The best you can do is isten to him and (if possible) validate him on his feelings that it is all your fault. If you can't validate his feelings (it IS hard), at least don't invalidate him--don't JADE. (Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain)

[byasliver]

GOOD NEWS! I did go to the therapy meeting with him. For the first 45 min or so I said absolutely nothing. It was supposed to be a one-on-one session so she just let me "observe". Was that ever an eye-opener! She spent that 45 min telling him almost EXACTLY all the stuff I'd said to him this morning! She picked up right away that he is very detached and she picked up on his denial. When I started to cry from just the sheer relief, she pulled me into the conversation some. But she really laid it out for him! I mean EVERYTHING I've been saying for months about the lies, the deception, the anger, the isolation, the detachment, the need for him to be in therapy because HE recognizes the need rather than just going to satisfy me - all of it! And she got all of it from him and his words to her instead of anything I said to her so he can't say I influenced her. However, it also became clear that he sees women (all women) as inferior. T was wise not to push that one too much today but I could tell she picked up on it. It was amazing! I had to leave before she was done so I could pick up the kids from school but apparently he was still there for another hour. He hasn't said anything to me since getting home so I don't know what's going through his head. Right now, though, I'm just immensely relieved that his issues are as glaringly apparently to others as they have been to me. I don't know what this means concerning him since he is soo deeply denying his issues but I know that the therapist is behind me and therefore the VA will be, too. It also means he may finally get diagnosed with PTSD (I don't care what they call it - they were seeing the symptoms and that's what matters to me) - with the VA, that is huge! It means more control given to me to try to get him treatment, more financial support, more emotional support, etc.

NO MORE EGG!

[4now]

 

Sorry Grey Kitty-didn't mean to leave you out!  You have given lots of great insight and links to read up on! How would you validate him saying it's her fault? Just out of curiosity, not very good at the validating! Thanks!

Byasliver-Glad things went well at the therapists office.  Sounds like you are feeling hopeful and sometimes hope can sustain us for a long time!

Things have been good here for the last two (?) days- but after originally posting this a week ago we had another episode.  He gave me the silent treatment for two days. I tried to talk to him, but I guess he was too mad or I didn't approach it the right way.  

But after reading through all of your replies, I think a more kind, caring and validating approach might be better than what I was doing, which was fairly standoffish.  

It's hard to be the bigger person all the time!  I have really appreciated everything everyone has had to offer.  It is so nice to hear how other people are handling things and choosing to look at things.  

Are there any books or resources on this site that you guy have found especially insightful?  Especially in regards to communication techniques?

[arabella]

byasliver - I'm so happy that you got such a positive vibe from the therapist! See? Never underestimate the power of moving forward slowly. Just remember, this is only the beginning... .   You're going to need all your strength to deal with the healing process. I think you'll do great - you have a positive attitude and you really care.

Grey Kitty - is it weird that when you said your "ears perked up" I envisioned an actual cat sitting at a computer tapping away at the keys? I think I'm losing it over here... .  

4now - It IS really hard to have to be the r/s leader all the time, isn't it? I'm exhausted but I'm hoping that it gets easier as I practice using the tools I've learned here. I think maybe the beginning is the hardest because it doesn't come naturally or automatically yet. (This is the second time today I've wished for a 'fingers crossed' or 'good luck' emoticon!)

I've seen the book, High Conflict Couple, by Alan Fruzzetti (and an intro from BPD treatment specialist Marsha Linehan) recommended on this site a number of times. It doesn't refer to BPD specifically so it's appropriate to share even with a partner who hasn't been diagnosed (or is in denial). The focus of the book is mostly improving communication and keeping conflict and tension to a minimum. It's based on DBT techniques - which also happen to be one of the most highly recommended therapies for treating BPD. Worth a shot?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

Right now, though, I'm just immensely relieved that his issues are as glaringly apparently to others as they have been to me. I don't know what this means concerning him since he is soo deeply denying his issues but I know that the therapist is behind me ... .  

Hooray!   Now while you are here in this supportive forum, do the "Yes, I'm sane, he really is acting like a wackjob dance"

Then get it out of your system. He may not actually be able to hear and believe this from the T much more than he does from you. Or he may believe it.

Either way, he is probably stressed by it, and is likely to have trouble coping.

Saying anything that even has a whiff of  "I told you so" or "The therapist agrees with me" is invalidating... .   make sure you don't do that. And try to do what you can to validate him now.

[Grey Kitty]

Don't worry, I'm not feeling left out. Actually I like hanging out with "the girls" sometimes more than with guys--I'm not into sports on TV enough, I guess! 

How would you validate him saying it's her fault? Just out of curiosity, not very good at the validating! Thanks!

Well, you don't have to agree that it is all your fault, and that's good since you probably don't   BTW, a lot of it is non-verbal. You sure can't be actually rolling your eyes!

Instead you validate that you understand them. In this case, they are probably blaming you because they are upset about something else. So validate that they feel angry or hurt about something. "I see that you are upset at having to pay for insurance." or "I see that you feel trapped by these financial obligations."

I consider myself so-so at validation (and I don't always remember to do it at the right time!). This workshop on it has great examples:

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

4now, can you describe an example where you wished had validated well instead of what you did say? You can get a lot out of posting a difficult situation, your best try, and seeing what others here who are much better at validation than I am will say.

Are there any books or resources on this site that you guy have found especially insightful?  Especially in regards to communication techniques?

I've read the High Conflict Couple, and it does a great job of addressing how to stop invalidating and start validating. You can work on it alone, or with your partner.

If you are still doing things which are invalidating, it will undo all the hard work of validating. So make sure you get this part figured out FIRST.

TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner