Advice on getting respect back

[griz]

Well here is my next boundary that I am dealing with and I am not succeding so I hope you have some suggestions.  DD18 speaks to me incredibly disrespectful at times.  During her worst of times I ignored her lashing out at me and excused it because of her state of mind.  Here I created my own problem.  DD is doing better now except for the fact that she seems to think it is her given right to say anything she is feeling in any way she chooses.  Here is my example for today:

I have instituted the boundary that she must be ready to leave for school on time.  Although I give her a few minutes to be late for the most part she is on time and when she passes a few minutes she must walk to class from my office.  Last night she asked me if I could straighten her hair for her in the morning, I told her I would but she must be up early.  I woke her twice and she finally came down and I did her hair.  She then went upstairs to finish dressing and I ended up sitting in the car for 15 minutes waiting for her. After 10 minutes I was getting annoyed so I got out of the car and went inside and called her to hurry up.  Her response was, "OKAY, I AM PUTTING ON MY F... .   KING SHOES, CALM THE F... . DOWN".  I got back in the car and when she got in 5 minutes later I was obviously annoyed.  I said nothing at first and then after a few minutes I calmly said I need you to work on being on time.  Her response... . "OMG, what the F... .   is wrong with you. I am always on time and one day I am F... .   ing late and you make a big deal".  I answered with, first of all I appreciate when you are on time but I think it might be more appropriate when you are late to apologize for being late and I would appreciate if you would watch your language around me.  Her response was... .   sure, whatever... .   After a few minutes she started talking to me like nothing every happend.  I have many times asked her to curb her language when she is speaking to me and she seems to just disregard this.

What suggestions can you give me for setting up boundaries for this. 

Griz

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Kate4queen]

Every day was a battle to get my son to school, so I know how you feel.

Setting the boundary for me wasn't the issue, it was the following through with it, because I was always scared of the consequences of leaving him home or at school if he didn't comply. So I let him get away with it for far too long.

I can only say that eventually after having him constantly make us all late in the morning for school and then complain if I was 1 minute late to pick  him up from school. he issued me with an ultimatum. Pick me up at exactly this time or I'll walk home.

This might not sound like a big deal, but my BPD kid is also mildly disabled (for which he blames me) and walking is tough for him.

Bolstered by my husband's support I didn't go and get him when he demanded and went at the normal time. He had already started to walk. I let him. It was incredibly hard. It took him almost 3 hours. He didn't make the mistake of being late again.

I've always found that I had to follow through with my boundary to make him respect me and re-set. That's still the case with him being a 21 year old, but now not in my face as he moved out.

[jellibeans]

Well if I didn't know where my dd was right now I'd say you drove her today!  ... .   When my daughter starts to swear I stop the conversation. I know at this point she is already deregulated and there is no point continuing.

As far as getting her to school on time... .   I think you said if she was late she would only get a ride to your office and she would have to walk the rest of the way... .   right? Is this no longer working? She doesn't care about having to walk? Maybe then you should just leave without her. I think that is what I would do. If she missed school that will be her problem not yours. If you left you would not have had the conversation and given her the opportunity to talk to you in that way.

I am starting to put together my family core values letter and swearing is going to be on it. Godd luck... .    

[griz]

jellibeans:  I have kept my boundary with her having to walk to class from my office if she is not on time.  It is not a far walk from my office buy an inconvience that she doesn't like so that is my deal.  She has mostly been on time with the exception of today and on the few occasions where she was late she had to do the walk.  I would love to leave the house when she is late like today however the problem is we are about twelve miles from her school (local community college), it just happens to be right near my office.  If I did leave she would have no chance in getting to school.  I thought of making her commute with public transportation but everyday her classes start at 8am and she would have to leave by 6am the latest as it takes 3 different buses to get there. 

The problem is the swearing.  This happens whenever she is annoyed. I don't care that kids talk this way and I don't care what her friends do I find it upsetting.  Today when I picked her up I calmly reiterated to her how I felt and that I would like her to refrain from swearing.  I didn't get a reply but I guess we will see what happens, but I do like the idea of stopping the conversation.  I'll give that a try.

Griz

Griz

[vivekananda]

I remember only too well how hurtful that was for me, when my dd thought it was ok to speak so nastily to me. She once said, I should be able to speak to you honestly like that, after all you are my mum and this is who I am... .   what hurt me even more was my dh standing by and letting it happen. And when I responded likewise with anger, blaming me for being badly behaved... .  

She is treating you with disrespect because she can get away with it. She is able to control how she speaks obviously, she can speak to others respectfully. So, her behaviour is contrary to your value of respect for others, for yourself. Perhaps when it is not an immediate issue, it will pay to revisit your values and the behaviours that go with it - for all family members, and get agreement for what you determine.(maybe write it up) If someone has transgressed the values, they are expected to openly and readily acknowledge they have caused hurt, apologise for it and ask what they can do to make it up (reconciliation). Put the responsibility for her behaviour on her shoulders.

Who can disagree that we all want too be treated with respect. You are a family. You are creating a family bond. When she transgresses, then you can say, please treat me with respect or be quiet. And then say nothing more. If she fails to respond appropriately, record it somehow, so that she doesn't 'get away with it'... .   maybe a round table meeting again where the values are revisited again and agreement is sought again... .  

The other thing I have learnt is about anger. If anger reaches a level of 5 out of 10, there is no point in trying to say r do anything but to remove your self from the anger. Perhaps this could go in a values based boundary agreement too. So if she explodes in the car, you could stop it and let her out. I used to do that with my dd when she was a teenager, invariably, she would shut up quickly - we lived in the country a long way from anywhere. I would always give her the choice, shut up and get in or get out. Pity I didn't understand about validation at the time... .   that may have made a difference to me.

So that reminds me, always, always use validation. Let go of your own anger and hurt, this is not about you, but about teaching or allowing your dd to learn appropriate behaviours. This is how we can help them change, by letting them recognise their emotions.

Cheers,

Vivek     

[Esperança_Hope]

Dear Griz,

When i read how much we have to deal! OMG. You know i´m sick of BPD because my last fight with DS... .   so, i would say. Go away. Leave her behind putting her F*&%¨$# clothes, with her F¨&*#*# menthal illness.

sorry!  My unique advice is though limit. You did a lot for her: drees-maker, driver, ... .   what else?

Love you

[Reality]

Dear griz and everyone,

Tricky situation, griz.  :)ialectically speaking, your daughter's behavior is totally unacceptable.  On the other hand, your daughter has a serious mental illness.  

Validate the emotion.  Wow!  She is putting herself together every morning, wrapping up herself in her armour to face the world.  Ridiculous, it is, yet sometimes the armour doesn't fit and your daughter feels very vulnerable going out into the world with ill-fitting armour, making her feel even worse.  She feels empty.  And then you do not seem to understand how difficult it is for her just to get herself ready for the world when she doesn't have any skin.  How scary!  No skin!  Empty inside!  And the armour isn't fitting, for some reason.

Your boundaries!  Sometimes I love to say f... .   all the time, dear daughter.  Sadly, it isn't in my best interest sometimes to blow off steam that way.  :)arling daughter, I have not had my third cup of coffee yet, so could you hold the f... .   s until I am thoroughly awake.  I love you.  

Maybe we could have a family f... .   shout once a week up in the mountains.  We could all go to the wilderness and shout f... .   this s and f... .   that as much as we like.

Reality

Isn't there a place for righteous anger here?  I don't know exactly what that means, but I sense some truth here.

[lbjnltx]

I think that when people use the "F" word in anger, it is most definitely a substitute for overwhelming emotions that they can't or choose not to verbalize.

It is the easy road to take instead of identifying the many emotions they are experiencing.  Accuratly describing emotions takes skills, time, energy and concern for self and the other person. 

When my d was in the throws of emotional dysregulation and our relationship was broken she would talk to me like I was one of her peers she disliked.  I told her once that I am not one of her peers, I am her mother.  That using that kind of language with me won't get her what she wants... .   to be heard and understood.

During a calm time I explained to her why it is not in her best interest to use curse words, that it can become a bad habit and slip out in other situations.  I used the military as an example of how this happens.

It's hard to do a don't... .   as Rosenberg tells us in NVC... .  

Could you suggest that when your d drops the "F" bomb that she correct herself and substitute the word Frustrated?  Let her know that when she fails to self correct that you will reflect back to her what she just said and substitute "frustrated" for the "F" word?

Turning this into an ongoing teaching can at least have some potential value?

[pessim-optimist]

Hi Griz,

what a hard situation! I think that that is one of the things we all have to struggle with at times.   

I really like lbj's suggestion.

I think that also some sensible boundary to add would be appropriate. I am thinking that what lbj suggested would be a good first stepping stone to give her some tools and a chance to regulate her behavior (hopefully her emotions also), and if that did not lead to positive results, I would think of a boundary that would: 1. protect you from further verbal assault and 2. have a direct consequence that would be administered calmly and gently, but be something that would motivate her to try to speak to you with respect or at least to avoid bad language to start.

I have to run for now, but I was thinking that when you talked to her and she said " sure whatever" she might have realized that she behaved inappropriately, but was unable to say so... .  

I just read the book "Boundaries" recently and the main message is that our boundaries have to have a direct action/consequence connected to them. If it is just words, then it is not enforceable.

[twojaybirds]

I am so annoyed with my dd's disrespect right now and although I understand MI and have strong boundries and can be awfully patient I also believe I am allowed my feelings as well. 

We are staying with our kiddos while others who have kiddos in the same situation just give up/kick them out/pass them on.

Being with PWBPD or without we all have our own stuff/own breaking points/own need to be validated.

My boundries can morph as does life. My dd cannot live at home unless she sees a p.  She has refused that for over a year,  however I invite her stay for specific nightson  holidays or certain weekends when it feels right to me.   I am clear with how many nights and why she is staying.

She was so disrepectful over the Easter weekend  I did not extened her stay even knowing she spent the day in the ER and would be sleeping on the streets.  That is what I am allowed, to make these options for me and my advice for you.

[qcarolr]

twojaybirds - this is so hard for each of us, esp. when our kiddos are on the street because they can't do what is needed to be at home. keep strong with your boundaries.

Respect - it only happens when DD26's life is going OK. When things are bad - ie. breakup with bf most common trigger and the ongoing drama to get him back and blackball anyone on his side - I just want her gone. And she has nowhere to go except the street or jail (which would happen if she is homeless since she is on probation for DWAI and has to be living somewhere).

Hang in there --   

qcr  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

Thank you all for such good advice.  Reality, you really made me stop and think about how difficult the morning is for her.  I took a moment and remembered not to long ago that she couldn't even get out of bed and face the world and now she has to get up, go to classes and come to work.  I especially love the bit about my third cup of coffee, although I am a tea drinker I will definetly use this one. Might even make her laugh.

LBJ I also like the substitution idea.  She does need to express her emotions but a substitution would allow her to do that without offending me and this goes along with twojaybirds statement that I have my feelings as well. 

PO I will try to come up with a sensible consequence.  I can't tell her I won't drive her to school but I am going to work on thinking of something else.

Esperanca... .   Oh how I would love to say those things because I certainly feel that way sometimes.  I am sorry that you are still hurting from the fight with you son.  I can't imagine how painful that must be for you and I'm complaining about a few f-bombs in the morning. 

This morning was much better. She was right on time... .   I mean exactly.  No F bombs, pleasant and we had a nice ride to work/school together. 

Got to go cook dinner and have a glass of wine.

Love to all,

Griz

[pessim-optimist]

Hi Griz,



So far so good! I'm also trying to think of some good sensible consequence... .   The important thing is that it has to be a consequence rather than punishment, and that is often a tricky situation with our kids as they often see even some consequences as punishment... .  

The Boundaries book makes a distinction between a punishment and a consequence that I like:

Punishment looks back in time and penalizes whatever has happened that is undesirable. There is no looking into the future.

Consequence looks into the future and offers opportunities to practice and fail, and learn and correct/improve the behavior, hopefully progressing toward success.

Still no practical ideas though... .  

Maybe someone else here will have a good idea... .