18yo BP DD moved out

[superman]

hi all, new to the boards... .   little backstory:  Daughter 18 (believed to be BP but not diagnosed, shows many characteristics).  DD seeing therapists for about 3 months now.  DD has been miserable here.  Saying she wants to leave home, saying she's unhappy, unloved and believes it to be mine and her step moms fault.  Says she's living a nightmare here and just wants to get out because we're holding her back, clipping her wings etc.  She's already lined up moving in with my sister after HS graduation (who has eliminated me from her life) and lives in my parent's home (long story, they live elsewhere now).  That's the basics. 

Last week we sat her down after she said all of this stuff and others and said if she had the opportunity to go would she, she said yes. I told her if she felt that miserable and she was really living a nightmare then she could go ahead and go now.  She got all emotional, however she really didn't really blink.  She got herself a few clothes and out the door she went.  That night I told her if she was going to go and move out so she could be independent, then she should get all of her stuff as well and take it with her.  I told her I wanted her stuff out in about a week.  It's been a week and most of it's gone, but she still has quite a bit of stuff here.  I haven't heard from her since last Wednesday.  No contact what so ever.  Sent her a text msg today asking what her plans are for getting the rest of her stuff... .   no response.

Today my wife and I got in a heated discussion about her, as we do frequently, and it didn't end well.  My wife is really hurt, has been continually hurt by DD over the years and that hurt manifests and comes out as anger not just for her own feelings but mine as well.  they have never really been able to build any kind of relationship.  We've been together since DD was 10.  I want to leave the door open for my DD to return if she chooses, as long as she makes some changes and is genuine in her 'realizing' we're not the problem.  My DW doesn't see it that way.  She says she can't do it anymore.  I get the feeling she would just as well not allow her to come back.  I agree, unless changes are made with my DD's behavior. 

This is where things get complicated.  I feel like sometimes I have to choose between my wife and my daughter.  I hated to even allow her to leave before she graduates HS but I felt we needed to do this for her sake.  I hope she finds what she's looking for but I'm worried her problems with only follow her.  As her dad I already miss her and wish she was hear, but I am glad things have calmed down a bit.  This is a very hard thing to do and I'm having a hard time accepting it.  She's 18 so she can do whatever she wants, but that doesn't change the fact that she's still my daughter.

Any others out there in this situation or have any thoughts on this?  We're trying to figure this out and just don't know what to do or where to go from here. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

Ah superman, 

It is so sad isn't to 'lose' our babies? You must feel it deeply. A father's love for a daughter is so special. You would be very hurt and worried for her.

It sounds like there are family complications in your story and that doesn't help matters at all. But I hope you feel that she is safe at her aunt's house, and in good care.

You have come to the right place here. You might guess that your story is familiar - while those of us here have different experiences, the one thing that we definitely have in common is how BPD affects us. Now, you will find that we are mainly mums here - but there are dads too  . Please don't let that bother you. I do think that mothers an fathers 'talk' differently, so I ask you to please be tolerant of us 

For myself, my dd is 32. She left home at 18 and has never been back. We only discovered what BPD was last year. When we did, everything fell into place and made sense. Since I have been on the boards here, I have found so much support and guidance to help me through our dramas - I only wish I had known earlier. There is much information here and tools to help us cope. Please feel free to explore the boards and see what you can learn.

You are worried about your dw and your dd and you feel torn between them. For the moment, I would just sit with that. I would postpone thinking about that and what could happen. I think that instead, it would help you to learn what you could about BPD and the tools we use here (esp Boundaries and Validation), I think when you begin to come to grips with the tools here, you can return to that question with a clearer mind.

It is probably important for you to come to grips with the best advice on boundary setting, so that you and your dw (dear wife) can be clear about expectations for the future. for example,  we have a boundary that says only if our dd is in treatment and taking it seriously, would we allow her back into our home. I have attached a link on boundary setting for you to explore, see below.

In the meantime superman (love that name  )  money is often a key issue at your dd's age. How is she supporting herself, are you helping out, if so, have you got any boundaries re money in place?

cheers,

Vivek    

Boundaries: Living our Values

[superman]

I've been reading on BPD for quite a while and understand many of the concepts and the need to treat her differently (in my mind as you would a 'special' child).     Yes Boundaries are a huge part of that and this is one of the reasons we suggested moving out as she was crossing boundaries that we've told her not to such as being nice to our face and then going and telling others lies (and telling partial truths, leaving things out) to manipulate the views of us, and this is to other family members.  That's just one example. 

On the validation part, that's the harder one, it's hard to validate someones feelings when your own feelings are being hurt, when your own heart breaks for DD because if she could only see what she's doing she could understand there's no need for all the drama.  Our DD isn't the blow up cuss at you storm out kind, she's the sit quietly, listen, then slowly distance herself to get away.  She 'hides' in her room or finds things to do simply to get herself away from us. All this she has admitted.  I'm working on the validation part.  But it's going to be really hard to rebuild a relationship when she's not here and not communicating with us.

One big thing I'm worried about is that DW doesn't seem to accept that we have to treat her differently.  She understands this, but when it comes down to it, the hurt wins and emotions take over.  The boundaries become walls and the validation is none.  It's as if she just wants her to just go away.  I know this isn't true but that's the way it looks at times.  She says she wants to have a normal relationship with DD but I don't know that that's going to ever be possible, it will always be a case of boundaries and validation and treating her differently simply because of her 'condition' as it were.  This I don't know how to handle with DW.  I want to help DW to understand all this but again I think all the hurt from the last 8 years has just been too much and she's having a hard time with it.

No, I would not allow her  back into our home if she didn't actively and seriously taking treatment.  She's in therapy now, but I think DD thinks it's for her to have someone to 'talk' to and not recover from BP as she hasn't been 'clinically diagnosed'. Since therapy started she really hasn't done what the therapist asks of her that we can tell.  However if she does show me that she's going to be proactive with therapy and really try and show improvement.  Then I may allow her to come back.  DW doesn't think that's a good idea.  Because, how do we know it's true or genuine change because of the way she manipulates and 'tells a story'.

As far as money goes, she has a part time job and isn't paying any rent at my sister's.  She plans on going to college.  No, we're not giving her any financial support simply because I don't condone her actions.  My parents will probably step in and offer her support as they see there's no issues with her and see that the problem is me and DW.  It was my mum's idea to move in with my sister in the first place.  She thought it would be "better for her" to be there instead of here.  If she were to act in a way that would be acceptable to us, then I would attempt to support her financially but I don't think that's going to happen.

Superman was what DD told me I "used" to be to her in one of our talks recently.  "You used to be my superman, my everything, now you're not".  I think she's stuck emotionally at age 8 or 10.  This was a time when it was just me, her and my son when I was 'between wives'.  I know that sounds awful but I don't know any other way to say it.

[JKN77]

Superman, I am sorry for what you are going through. My son (just turned 19) has been in and out of our home a couple of times. Our situation is different in the fact that he didn't have relatives or friends to support him, which helped. Being on his own and finding out how hard it was was good for him. I have let him back in (again) and after the last time of being out and really having no place to live, things are much better, not perfect, but better.

I too told him that he had to conform to  the rules of the house to live here. It took a couple of tries but it is much better now. He knows if he messes up big, he is out becuase I stuck to my word before and did it. I also told him this is the last time.

I can't tell you how hard it was to have him leave knowing that if he stayed out his life would go nowhere, so I know exactly what you are going through. I am sorry that your family is butting in, it would be better if they didn't. At the same time, she is in a safe place and will be able to continue school. Your parents will see the truth of it should she stay there longer. And maybe she will actually improve while she is there because she will want to behave well so everyone will like her and acept her. It may end up being a good thing, no matter which way it goes.

She knows your doors are open, should she decide to conform and that is good. I understand and sympathize with the problems it has caused in your marriage. My H and I have had plenty of fights because of our BPD son, and we are both his bio. parents.

Another thing that has been hard for me is having to lower my expectations for him time and time again. There was a time when I envissioned him going to college. Now I would be happy if he just got his GED. Don't know if he will ever have a job that he is happy at. Another thing I have learned is to just take it one day at a time. Things change, even our children can change.

Hang in there, you are doing the right thing and you are a good dad. Take this time to build on your other relationships. This could last a week or forever, you don't know so just take this time to breath, regroup and enjoy some peace in your life for a while.

Welcom aboard

[twojaybirds]

Welcome.  Your story sounds so familiar.  My dd left at just 2 weeks after her 18 birthday while a senior with no real plans and ended up in homeless shelters and living on the street.

She wanted no contact from me for many months.  I moved her stuff into the garage for my mental health so if/when she asked for it, it was there, organized and boxed.  Slowly she made some limited contact and I set the boundary that she needed to be in counseling to move back in... . she hemmed and hawed but accepted it.

Now it is a year later, she has spent a few nights here, at my call, for holidays, a dinner or two, or a few weekends.  Most of her stuff has been moved out.

Her old bedroom is now my craft/writing room and the old office is the 'guest' bedroom with just enough of her stuff in it so she can feel 'loved' and part of a home when she visits.

I actually rearranged the whole house (including kitchen cabinets) to change the energy and 'reclaim' the house.  It also put her a little on edge and aware of the differences when she vists. 

[qcarolr]

Superman - welcome to our community. The others have really said much what I would say. It is a complex process. I really like Vivek 's suggestion to sit with things a bit. It is important to build the connection with your wife as your home is more peaceful with your daughter living elsewhere. This has helpd in my home - it is so important that my dh and I can work together with our boundaries for my DD26. Certainly not perfect, but so much better than in the past. And DD tests those boudnaries continuously, and she has to leave our home.

It is a good thing that your D is aware that she can benefit from therapy. I hope the T is able to understand her underlying needs.

In addition to the great resources here there are a couple good books you might consider.

"Overcoming BPD" by Valerie Porr

"I Can't Make Everything All Better" by Lunberg

Keep coming back -- good to get the dad's perspective.

qcr  

[Vivgood]

Hi superman  

Funny, I was just wondering a few days ago about how many people out there are in a stepfamily with a BPD child. The dynamics can make your head explode. I am biomom to DD (BPDish, 22yo), and DH has been dad since she was 7yo (no involvement with biodad at all). DH also has 2 kids from his prior marriage (SD24, SS 23).

If your DD is not the raging type, what behaviors has she engaged in that make your wife intolerant of her living with you? How do you feel about your parents intervening in your parenting decisions? I'm wondering if there aren't a couple of drama-triangles operating here which might exacerbate the situation.


vivgood

[superman]

Hi All, thanks for all the support and encouragement and stories.  It really helps knowing there are others out there that deal with this.  To answer the questions though (forgive me if I miss any).  DD is not the raging type, she's the silent reclusive type (if there is such a thing).  Her behaviors are the things we see and read (yes, I do a bit of snooping, although alot of the stuff we've found has been 'out there' as if she wanted it to be found).  She uses poetry to express her feelings and it always full of sorrow and sadness and pointed at us.  She talks to others and the things she says are always skewed, either half truths or leaving important stuff out.  She avoids my DW like the plague.  Will do anything to keep from having to talk to her (unless she needs something from her).  We ask her to do something and have taught her the ways we want it done and she changes it and does it her way (or half-@sses it).  She lies to our faces and gets caught red handed and still doesn't think she's done anything wrong.  DW and DD are nothing alike and that doesn't help any.  But primarily it's the things that get back to us and what we read and recently what DD has told us.  For DW it's more of a respect thing, DD disrespects us frequently and these things all mixed together hurts DW's feelings and she gets upset because DD is hurting my feelings... .   kind of like she's being protective over me.  It's the emotional turmoil and tension DD causes basically.

DD is very socially awkward when it comes to us and we're starting to see it's that way around others as well.  But then other times she's a social butterfly when she's in control of her element.

As far as my parents (primarily mom) intervening, I wish they would just listen to me and understand where DW and I are coming from.  So they can help DD.  However, dear mother hasn't even called me to talk about this in months, although she talks with DD frequently in the last several weeks.   They only want to hear one side of the story, or at least it seems that way.  They are only hearing DD's side at the moment.  Mom has mentioned to DD that DW and I are the problem and she's had to learn how to "deal" with me/us and that our other two younger kids will have to learn how to 'deal' with us soon too.  The other two are completely fine.  Act like normal teenagers would.  DS15 and DD12.   DS is mine from previous marriage and DS12 is DW's from previous marriage. They are quite happy kids and don't seem to have problems with anything, much less us.  And to me that's saying a lot about a 15 year old boy wanting to hang out with his dad as well as his friends. 

The parents haven't been around in the last couple years to see how things have progressed and how DD's behavior is since they've moved away.   They've been gone for nearly two years and have only see the kids a few times since.  Couple holidays and couple dinners is about it. 

Dad tries to be objectionable, but it's hard for him as he's caught in the middle of all this and mom doesn't tell him everything and has kept him in the dark about things for years (his job keeps him away during the week).   On top of all this, DD is the first born grandchild and is put on a pedestal.  Yes, she's a great kid, I'll give her that... .   but she does have issues and they refuse to see that. 

[vivekananda]

oh darn!    superman, I had such a good reply for you but had to close the laptop down and lost it all. So this will be a rehash job and won't be as good... .   b*gger!

It is so frustrating when people with good intentions interfere, especially when they are out of their depth and making assumptions. That was something I have learnt to address over the years. My dd dines occasionally with her aunt and that's how we know what's going on. Well, my SIL feels rather 'superior' to be the one who has 'all the cards' while our dd accuses me of a lifetime of physical and emotional abuse while dh stood by and let it happen. It suits the aunt to be the one she goes to, it meets her emotional need to be in that position of power. It also suits us too, because we know then that dd is ok and what is happening in her life - a bit. And it gives me an opportunity to slowly over time, educate my SIL as to what is really going there. My ILs are slowly bit by bit getting the picture. We address it head on now, repeatedly explaining that dd has a mental illness, she doesn't do things the way a healthy person would. And yes, we all love her to bits too.

Now, you have had some good feedback here. This is what I wanted to tell you:

Qcr tells you about Lundbergs' book. Get it for your dw to read. It is all about validation (but let your wife figure that out herself eh?) nothing about BPD. It is an oldie but a goodie, a self help book. Easy to read and makes so much sense.

Qcr mentions Porr's book. Get it for you to read. It is all about BPD and is written from a parent's perspective. It is easy to read and has soo much good stuff in it.

When you have both finished, swap books. Meanwhile regularly talk about what you are both reading, share ideas and information etc. I think by the time you have both done that, your dw will be 'on board' and you will feel a lot easier too.

Now, validation. I am a stickler for identifying the emotions and validating them, others accept a more 'open' definition (a la Lundberg) and validation can be more generally supportive. But I would try this, listen carefully to your wife, try to identify the emotion behind what she is saying, and validate it. Emotions could be for example: surprise, satisfaction with a success as well as the 4 basics: fear, anger, sadness and frustration. If you can do this you will be 1) practising your own skills 2) listening better to your wife and letting her feel better for that 3) modelling what you want her to do. You see validation is something we should all be doing for everyone, not just pwBPD.

My experience is that many of us see a problem and want to fix it. I know it has been a 'default' way of thinking for me, I am a problem solver, so is my dh. Now with a dBPD, there's a problem outside of our scope. When we can't solve a problem we get frustrated etc. I bet you and your dw are problem solvers too. So, here is my challenge to you. Consider changing your default response from being a problem solver, to a validator. So, that automatically you respond to another person's problem with validation, not a solution. This is so hard a thing to do, it is a real challenge. If you are able to do that, then you can get a glimpse of what you are asking your dd to do - change her default response.

If I want to be pointed with my dh (he has big trouble with validation) I can say: you expect our dd who is unwell to change, but you can't do it yourself?

It takes a lot of sensitive gentle prodding to get our spouse to come on board, that and a lot of time. Finally try this one: if dd had a physical illness, maybe a cancer and she needed support and loving parents, would your dw not respond openly with warmth? What's the difference between a mental illness and a physical one?

Some things to ponder superman. Let me know what you think, ok?

cheers,

Vivek    

[Vivgood]

Vivek anda has some good advice.   The disease analogy can be very helpful. ( I like Type II diabetes as a comparison-like BPD, it is amenable to tx and  for most practical purposes is "curable"

let me see if I understand.

you and your wife have read things your DD wrote about her feelings. You have "heard things" about how your daughter feels. You have seen your daughter lie. Your DD has been rude, in particular to your wife. Your DD doesn't do chores or respond to requests in a way you feel is adequate. You and your wife have experienced "hurt feelings" due to these behaviors. This has resulted in you having her move out.

Am I understanding that correctly?

What about self-harm? Substance abuse? Violence? Episodes of severe dysregulation? Failure in school? Inability to work? Legal problems?


It *IS* genuinely nerve-wracking/heartbreaking/crazy-making to live with a disordered YA child. True dat, snoop!

Today my wife and I got in a heated discussion about her, as we do frequently, and it didn't end well.  My wife is really hurt, has been continually hurt by DD over the years and that hurt manifests and comes out as anger not just for her own feelings but mine as well.  they have never really been able to build any kind of relationship.  We've been together since DD was 10.  I want to leave the door open for my DD to return if she chooses, as long as she makes some changes and is genuine in her 'realizing' we're not the problem.  My DW doesn't see it that way.  She says she can't do it anymore.  I get the feeling she would just as well not allow her to come back.  I agree, unless changes are made with my DD's behavior. 

The above isn't on your DD and her BPD. That's on stepmom. being a stepparent is 99% "hurt feelings" and 1% pissed as he!. And thats with normal stepkids. Just sayin'! I have probably the 2 most compliant, emotionally placid stepkids on the planet and I STILL have 99% "hurt feelings". On my DH's side... .   ummm, its more like 524%. But the guy's a grown a$$ man. we both are . We don't have the option of "being done" with each others kids. There are situations where one SHOULD be, no question! No one should put up with abuse. But I'm not hearing about any abuse in your case, in any form. Maybe there's more that you haven't shared? Does DD make allegations of abuse in an official venue? That's always a very real and very dangerous possibility with a stepparent-BPD kid scenario, and I would have an easier time understating your wife's stance if that's going on.

Note: when DD was about 10, she drew a series of pictures of DH on fire, with herself gleefully watching him roast. She also wrote any number of screes in her journals about how much she hated him, over the years.   One  SHOULD read the kids diary, if doing so helps keep her safe! But one does not get to stand in judgement of the emotional expression contained therein.

vivgood

[Kate4queen]

BPD persons are really good at splitting their parents. My son and I managed to have, what I thought was a decent relationship for most of his life all the while my son was treating my eldest son and my husband, his father with contempt resulting in my dh losing so much of his confidence, suffering from PTSD and feeling like a stranger in his own house. He also thought I was on my son's side and it made the whole house full of conflict, so I can see how your relationship with your daughter could be totally different to that of your DW with her. It's amazing to see how oblivious I was to it for years as well.

Things changed for us when I told my 20 yr old son that if it came down to it, I would always support his father and that I wasn't his father's doormat and that is father wasn't nuts. Once we'd clarified that, I too became the enemy and god, was that a shock as I suddenly saw the horrific side to him full of venom and hatred that he'd tried to hide from me for years. I'd seen it but I'd always felt as his mum that it was up to me to fix things with my unconditional love and acceptance. When I finally realized that I'd never be able to give him enough to fill his emotional void, I started to look at myself and wondered what the hell I'd been doing.

And speaking of interfering a friend of my sons parents took him in to their house when he walked out of ours. I don't think they quite expected him to still be living with them 6 months later, but hey, that's what happens when you interfere and don't even bother to call the kids parents, who you've known for years, to get an idea of what's going on. I have no sympathy for them at all.

It's hard to detach -they split us so that we come so immersed in their world that we don't see the truth of how they treat others. It was hard for me to take a step back but I'm so glad I did it and let my son start to take responsibility for his own mistakes and rages.I still love him but I had to stop enabling him.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[superman]

Vivek ,  you're right, I'm a huge problem-solver (as most guys are)I'm an engineer/biz owner, that's what we do... .   my DW ehh sometimes I wouldn't call her a problem solver but not a validator either.  I think she's more of a "i hope it will fix itself" kind of person.  She avoids conflict unless pushed to the limit.  She will talk about it but doesn't like to.

I'm trying to practice validation on everyone in my family now more than before, esp with DW and DD.  It's hard but I'm figuring it out.  DW has a hard time with this.  DW is trying to, but the years of hurt, I think, are clouding that ability.  That's my opinion, she may say different. 

Book has been ordered, now to find time to read them.

vivgood, no, none of those things, no abuse etc... .   DD is the quiet, do it while you're not looking, stab you in the back type.  She is however a financial timebomb, she is sexually promiscuous borderlining on the dangerous side, plays men/boys like a fiddle (chews em up and spits em out), She knows how to manipulate people and does it well, she lies, has no empathy, no respect, priorities all mixed up.  Now others will tell you she's great, wonderful kid... .   because that's how she wants them to see her. 

DW doesn't like the way she is and the way she treats me and others, IMHO I think this is why she's having such a hard time with this.  As far as her coming back, she's said that only if she shows improvement and is willing to 'conform' to our house rules and behaviors then she would be willing... .   Her big issue is that "how do we know" she's genuine? 

We not only have heard and read things, we have discussed all with this DD and her T and her has confirmed all of the things we've discussed and added many more.  Now I know some of this is because of it's a stepchild situation, some of it is pure teenager, but most of it I believe is caused by her BPD.  Yes, DW should work on her feelings and how what DD does affects her and how she handles and reacts and not let it get to her so much, she just has such a hard time with this as she treats her like her own.  She feels the sorrow and has cried the tears for our DD, she worries and is concerned for her.  Has helped her in many ways for years.  Yet, DD just ignores it like she's not even there... .   until she wants something.  So yes, DW needs to handle it a bit differently, but I understand her feelings.  I'm also a stepdad in this situation of her much younger, more stable DD12, but still we have our issues.  So I do understand why she's having a hard time understanding.  If there in any kind of abuse, it would be emotional... .   but you would never say a child was emotionally abusing a parent... .   simply because the parent shouldn't allow it right?

 

Yesterday, DD came home, just showed up in the house, no warning.  DW was at home didn't here her come in, was on the phone with her Dr and turned around and there was DD standing there.  Scared the death out of DW.  DW was embarrassed as well because of the private conversation she was having with the Dr on the phone.  She doesn't know how long DD was in the house or how much she heard.  Anyway, long story short... .   I met with DD yesterday and told her our expectations of her if she is to come home to visit or whatever.  As she doesn't live here anymore, She is to always call or text us to let us know she's coming and she is to knock when she's coming in and come straight to one of us to let us know she's here.  If she cannot meet these expectations, she can return her key.  I told her she needs to treat our home as if she doesn't live here anymore.  I reminded her that she's always welcome in our home, she just needs to follow these guidelines. 

[qcarolr]

If there in any kind of abuse, it would be emotional... .   but you would never say a child was emotionally abusing a parent... .   simply because the parent shouldn't allow it right?

It is so easy as parents to take in the emotionally abusive stuff from our kids -- reality is this does help either side move forward in life. It perpetutuates FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) that can blind us to meeting our own needs and letting our kids learn to meet their own needs. 18 is none too early to step back. The trick for me is to find boundaries that protect me from this emotional abuse and keep me connected in some way with my child. Sometimes physical distance is needed for this to happen. So... .  

 

Yesterday, DD came home, just showed up in the house, no warning.  DW was at home didn't here her come in, was on the phone with her Dr and turned around and there was DD standing there.  Scared the death out of DW.  DW was embarrassed as well because of the private conversation she was having with the Dr on the phone.  She doesn't know how long DD was in the house or how much she heard.  Anyway, long story short... .   I met with DD yesterday and told her our expectations of her if she is to come home to visit or whatever.  As she doesn't live here anymore, She is to always call or text us to let us know she's coming and she is to knock when she's coming in and come straight to one of us to let us know she's here.  If she cannot meet these expectations, she can return her key.  I told her she needs to treat our home as if she doesn't live here anymore.  I reminded her that she's always welcome in our home, she just needs to follow these guidelines. 

This is such an awesome example of respectfully putting reasonble boundaries into place for you and your wife. What will you do if she returns and refuses to give you her key? Change your locks, perhaps?  This is also showing you love and care with respect to your DW - you need each other.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

Just a quick observation on validation superman... .  

One reason validation is a challenge to us is because we are thinking of what we want to say next when the person is speaking, thinking about ourselves and how we feel. Well, as 'self actualised' peeps, adults, parents la di la, when someone speaks to us we need to listen just to what they are saying. If we listen carefully, we can hear the emotion behind what the person is saying (maybe if they are asking you to pass the salt, it's not so important). The four difficult/negative emotions are: fear, anger, hurt and frustration. If we have a 'problem' usually one of these, a combination of these emotions, or a variation on these, are behind it.

As adults, we need to accept our own emotions and deal with them ourselves and not expect others to do stuff because we feel a particular way. When we feel a person is disrespectful and hurtful of us, we feel that and want to retaliate. However, if we consider instead that what that person is doing is communicating to us their emotional needs and we can be sympathetic and listen and validate them, they will feel easier and slowly situations will ease. Of course, how long it takes etc depends upon our individual experiences etc.

I can guarantee, validation works wonders in building relationships. Then for me there came a paradigm shift in thinking that occurred after  much practice, thinking and self reflection and discussion here... .   that paradigm shift for me meant a whole deeper level of understanding... .  

good luck superman and tell us how it goes, ok?

cheers,

Vivek

ps good work with the boundaries.

[js friend]

Hi superman.


My dd hasnt had a key to our home since she was 16 because she was forever coming and going and i was worried about who she would be bringing back to my home when i was out.

I also just wanted to say that similiar to your dd my dd18 left home shortly after her 17th birthday. For years she would turn every disagreement into an opportunity to remind me how much she hated living here( with me in particular), and how much she couldnt wait to leave.

When she eventually left i was totally conflicted. I was wracked with worry because my ds is not streetwise at all, and her impulsive nature has got her into many difficulties,on the other hand I also felt a sense of relief as i just needed some peace which must sound awful but the disrespect from dd was getting too much. Turns out she had planned it all out and was staying with a relative who didnt think to inform me that dd was staying with her ... .   (so heaven knows what lies dd had told her)and who ferried dd about like she was royality.

i Know that you say that you are your DW are conflicted atm but you must try to find a compromise somewhere.Dont let your dd come between the both of you. my dd has been the cause of many arguments between myself and others in the past and then just casually gone about her business and left us to argue.

Could you meet your dd once a week or would a weekly dinnerdate be someting you and your wife would consider? I did this with my dd after the dust had settled and it worked really well.

If she couldnt make it she would let me know which was much more than she ever did when she lived here, sometimes she would even turn up erly to help me make it. Then I would let her stay the odd night which she really liked .

I didnt want to make it easy for my dd to just come back like that, but i aslo didnt want to shut her out. I know that my dd wanted to come home at times but as hard as it was for me I knew that it  was good for her to experience the good and bad of the freedom she had so deseratley wanted warts n all life it it has been a good learning curve for her and now she has actually admitted that she had it easy while she lived here.

Actually she doing pretty well living in the real world.

[pessim-optimist]

Hi superman, and



Your situation IS indeed very difficult and emotionally taxing!

I  know your dilemma so well as I have observed it with my husband for over a decade now. We have a very similar situation, and so, I think I understand your DW's feelings. And they are as you describe them... .  

It is frustrating AND infuriating to watch your husband being continually hurt, disrespected, and maligned behind his back with NO WAY of resolving the issue and with it continually going on. It is also very painful and frustrating to continue to try and love and help someone, who is avoiding and ignoring you, and using you when they need you.

I respectfully disagree with Vivgood's assessment. The same thing has happened between me and my step-daughter. Even though I have tried and tried, she never really accepted me, so I was never able to help her (as much as I have tried). I love her dearly, and I also feel my husband's pain that he goes through because of her illness. Our situation is a bit different as she is 32, and married with 3 children. But our basic struggle has been the same as she remained very close to her dad (as a matter of fact, I believe she was never able to emotionally separate from him).

So, what I'm going to say may or may not apply in your situation, but it is worth considering:

You say that you feel like you have to keep choosing between your daughter and your wife. That is how our situation often feels.

And to some degree that is what regular blended families go through, where loyalties and interests are more complicated than in a natural family. But in the case of BPD I believe there is a difference:

Is it possible that due to BPD, the child's insecurity and fear of abandonment stirs up a stronger kind of jealousy over the parent than generally observed in step-families? Is it possible that the child sees the step-parent as more of an enemy, who is "stealing" their parent than a non-BP child might see? Is it then possible that due to these feelings there is more of a barrier between the step-parent and child than would normally be? And is it possible that there is a much stronger, almost desperate pull the child tries to exert on their parent to keep their love, that significantly disrupts the husband-wife relationship and the whole family stability?

I believe that the answer to the above questions is YES, it is POSSIBLE.

Again, your situation may be different, but it is something that I believe has been happening in our family. And as our daughter (step-daughter) has often inserted herself emotionally between us, it has at times EMOTIONALLY (and I stress that - emotionally only -  don't want to give anyone any wrong ideas here) felt like a marriage of three... .  

The road towards healing and a more balanced life in our situation means protecting our unity and applying appropriate boundaries with our daughter, while supporting her and validating her experience.

Anyway, that is my two cents... .  

Also, as a solution to our/your problem I found a book that I think is tremendously helpful. It's called "Boundaries" by H. Cloud & J. Townsend It is written from a christian perspective, but I think anyone can benefit from it tremendously. It describes to a detail what boundaries are and how they work. It talks extensively about healthy child development and how boundaries come into play. And it also talks about how to develop healthy boundaries at different ages, and in different relationships.

The book that others mentioned by Lundberg is a GREAT bookend to the Boundaries book!

Welcome again, superman, and keep posting, this is a great community with a lot of resources. I have found support here and important information that has helped us in our situation.

[qcarolr]

Like pessim-optimist there has been a great dividing by BPDDD26 in my marriage. For me it is a tearing in needs for DD and gd7, and dh's primary defense mechanism of avoidance and withdrawal when we most need to be united. DD is very aware of some very personal issues in my marriage, due to my aging body (57) and menopause. I made mistakes in sharing info when things were going well. We are now on the same page; our marriage takes precident over all other r/s's in our life. It is working for us to create a safe and healthier home for dh , me and gd7.

DD had a raging day about a month ago where I asked her to move out. I was feeling unsafe to be in my home and DD refused to leave. She stated that it was I that needed to move out, and there was a certain appeal to do this (though no resources to make it happen). Dh was unavailable so I issued this request without his knowledge, and he struggled later to support it wholeheartedly. When he arrived home from work, and I was waiting to return with gd until he got home, DD stated to him that I should be moving out, not her. This tipped the scale -- dh was able to say no way. If someone needs to go it is you. And we have been struggling since to find a way for her to have another place to live. So far homelessness is the only option, or being in jail as she is not doing her DWAI probation requirements. He want to hang on til she is in jail, then we will have a 10-11 month respite to make a plan.

She has been gone 5 out of 7 days the past few weeks with her homeless friends (she has lived homeless before when I called "enough is enough". She can survive it again. We must stand strong to not give her a place - we do not need to spend our retirement funds, whereever she live will be trashed, we do not need any legal liability related to her life.

So dh is now on board trying to figure out how HE can let go. I am re-working my tools to let go again/more. It is hard because I will always love my DD and try to maintain a safe connection with her.

We each have to find our own path, and there are always multiple options. Keep loving you wife - she is the one that will be there for you as time goes on. It is a reasonable expectation to seperate from you child emotionally, and sometimes physically, even it that child does not accept this. It is possible to stay connected - it is up to you to take care of yourselves (your and your wife) to find the boundaries to make this work.

Good Luck. Keep us posted. We care.

qcr  

[superman]

pessim-o    You hit the nail right square on the head!  Yes it's the emotional struggle that we go through mostly. DW told me just yesterday that she hasn't been sleeping well as she's been thinking about DD while lying in bed.  She's worried, concerned and just outright sad for her.  I told her to lower her expectations to nothing.  Because right now DD wants NOTHING to do with us.

DD had her senior prom on Saturday.  She got ready at my sister's.  Not once did she call or stop by to even show us her dress or pictures, etc... . the stuff that goes on with such a big even in a young ladies life.  The only way we even know that she went and had a good time is through facebook.  on a side note:  my sister has had me and DW blocked from her fb for about 4 years now... .   so I looked through a friends account in order to check on my DD and see how she is as we saw some pictures someone had 'liked' and it made them visible to us.  We asked DD if she could show us some pictures as we want to be a part of such a big thing... .   but to no avail, nothing out of DD.  It's as if she's dropped us from her life.  I know it's only a few days, but to snub your parents and not even say hey, I had a good time at prom is just wrong.

Anyway, we have started painting her pink room so that our DS can move into her room.  His is much smaller than hers.  We'll  turn his room into a guest/entertainment room.  DD12 said she's glad he's moving into DD18's room.  They are excited. 

We'll see what the rest of the week holds... .   probably nothing as she wants no contact but that's the way it rolls I guess.

Thanks for all the support, it does help. 

[lbjnltx]

Hello superman,

Thanks for checking back in and updating.  Missing out on the milestones can be very hurtful, our expectations kind of set us up for that   

During this time, while your d18 is outside the home would be a calm time for educating yourselves on the disorder and what you can do to improve your lives and relationship with d18.  Using our energy in positive ways can relieve some of the anxiety that comes from the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt).  It is empowering during a time when we feel we are powerless.  The truth is we are not powerless.  We just need to adjust our perceptions on where we do have power and where we don't.

We look forward to traveling this road with you.  You are not alone.

lbjnltx

[pessim-optimist]

Hi superman,

hm, that must really hurt... .   we also have missed so much of our other (non-BP) daughter's life as she grew up with her mom and is mostly alienated from her dad.

During this time, while your d18 is outside the home would be a calm time for educating yourselves on the disorder and what you can do to improve your lives and relationship with d18.  Using our energy in positive ways can relieve some of the anxiety that comes from the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt).  It is empowering during a time when we feel we are powerless.  The truth is we are not powerless.  We just need to adjust our perceptions on where we do have power and where we don't.

I agree! A good and very strategic time.

In the meantime, as you heal and try to allow some peace into your lives, it might help ease your pain to also be able to look at the situation from your dd18's point: her PERCEPTIONS as you know are SKEWED DUE TO her ILLNESS. And some of what has happened recently might have triggered her fear of rejection and abandonment fears. She asked to leave home, and she was allowed to (but deep inside she might regret it and feel like "if you really cared, you would have hung on to her and not let her go". Of course if you did that, she would have probably fought it (you being put into the classic 'no-win-situation'. Your reasonable request for her to move her things out, again might have been interpreted as "they can't wait to get rid of me". And when she came home unannounced, she might have interpreted your request that she lets you know ahead of time that she is coming, as yet another "rejection" that you are done with her and she is an "unwanted guest".

Now, I am in NO WAY saying that you did ANYTHING wrong. It was a reasonable step to let your daughter go, when she asked to. And it will bring more peace into your immediate home to not have to try to keep her home against her will.

What I am trying to say is that your dd18's silence is likely yet another symptom of her illness. She may feel some satisfaction from "rejecting you back", but it probably makes her feel sad as well.

And, if it is not too soon and too upsetting to think about it: As you are painting and re-arranging the house (again a good and happy move), can you think of a warm and welcoming message to your daughter about the changes, whenever it is that she comes for a visit?

We think about our kids all the time and we feel their pain, yet they seldom have the capacity to realize it even if they are healthy. How much more, when they have an illness that makes such a realization almost impossible?

Hang in there, superman 

[superman]

Well,  DD came yesterday and had one of my uncles (whom she's never really been involved with) bring his truck to get the rest of her stuff (bedroom suit etc).  Don't understand why she didn't ask me.  I have a truck?  Duh.  Anyway before she left I asked her about her graduation tickets.  (she only gets six to give out due to limited seating if the weather is bad, and if it's not ticket holders go in first).   I asked her who she was going to give the tickets to, she said we were getting four (me, wife and two siblings) and she was going to give her Aunt one and one of her aunt's girls one and quickly said her grandmother told her to do it that way.  Two things wrong with that situation in my mind, one her grandmother and grandfather will drive 4 hours to come see her graduate, if it's bad weather you don't get in without a ticket, or they could be standing on the sidelines.  Also, it would not be fair to give the ticket to one of the two girls.  Someone is going to feel left out and that's just not right.  The second thing that's wrong her is that grandmother is telling her to do this?  WHAT?  geez... .   she said she wanted to move out to gain her independence and make decisions on her own, good or bad.  But now her grandmother is telling her what to do?  If we would have told her what to do with the tickets she would have said we were controlling her. 

That said, I told her that she can do what she wants with the tickets, however because she is still in school and we are still her parents she needs to talk with us when it comes to school stuff.  I recommended to her that she give the tickets to her grandparents because of the above mentioned reasons.  I thought I saw a glimmer of "Oh I didn't think of it that way"  in her face, but with her you never know.  Reminded her it was her decision and she left. 

After she's gone, I'm just every emotion all wrapped into one.  I understand DD's actions, that's the kind of stuff I've come to expect from her.  However the grandmother telling DD what to do is just one more step of her sticking her nose in where it doesn't belong.  Let the child make her own decisions.   On the other side of the coin, maybe she didn't leave because she wanted that independence... .   maybe she just wanted away from us.  Who knows anymore.

Well, all of her stuff is now gone, she has no reason to come here unless she needs something or actually might want to spend some time with us.  So we'll see what happens from here.   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[heronbird]

Hi Superman,

I would just like to recommend a book to you if you have time and havent read it before, it may really help you as it has me.

Overcoming BPD by Valerie Porr.

It has helped many people that I know so it is worth having a look at it.

My 18 year old dd moved out as soon as she was 18, I was so upset. Yet its been ok and she comes to see me a lot.

Im sure its because Ive read that book and learnt how to help and speak to my dd.

[pessim-optimist]

Hi again, superman!

Thank you for the update,

so sorry - I can so identify with the mixed emotions. For me, it's mostly the feeling of sadness and disappointment for what I hoped would have been, but won't, that lingers... .  

But at least, you've been invited to the graduation. You have an opportunity to celebrate that milestone in her life. 

As to her grandma, it is a very normal thing for a pwBPD to sort of 'latch onto' someone who they prefer at the moment. They often use that person to help them navigate life (since they feel very insecure, whether they admit that or not). So sad grandma doesn't see eye to eye with you guys, it would be so much better for your dd... .   Maybe in the future, if she has enough experiences of her own with dd... .  

[superman]

Oh and the saga continues.  Today I went by the school (for something for my son) and saw my DD's car wasn't there.  Called her, no answer, text her, no response.  So I call my sister with whom DD's staying with.  She answers, I ask her if she knows why DD isn't in school... .  she says she slept late and decided not to go t school, it was her (DD's) choice.  Sister tells me she's in the car with her going out of town to a dr's appointment.  So I ask to speak with DD.  She tells me she slept late and didn't want to get to school too late.  Long and short of it, she would have only been about 45 minutes late based on the time she got up.  So she should have went to school.  I reminded DD that she should have called me and talked to me about it simply because it's my @ss that's on the line if she doesn't show up.  Our school calls if the child is not in school.  So I check with the school to see if DD has had any other absences that I'm not aware of and they said she didn't.  I think something fishy is up with this situation to be honest.  So I contacted DD's T and told him the situation as I thought he should know.  He said yes, he needed to know and that DD is setting herself up for failure if she thinks she can get away with it.  Used the analogy of if you don't pay your taxes this year and get away with it, you'll do it again and again and again.  Anyway, T said he would speak with her about it.  Also spoke with him about her 'codependency' (his word-which hit the nail on the head) on the sister and grandmother.  Said he would discuss that as well.   All in all said she's doing good and said he'll bring these things up with her in a way to see if she's lying to him as well.  She only has about another 10 days and she's out of school until graduation.  Oh, and T said he's been suggesting to her to not get into any 'romantic' relationships right now.  Don't know how far that will go but it's good to know that he's seeing that there's an issue with that as well.

Anyway, just another day in the life I guess.  As always thanks for the support!

[pessim-optimist]

So sorry, superman, it is a difficult time for all of you... .  

Since it is only 10 more days, I am assuming she would graduate even if there were more absences?

After the graduation, are you going to continue to have any legal/financial responsibilities for your dd?

Do you have a plan that would allow you to stay in touch but not be negatively affected if dd starts making unwise decisions?

[superman]

Oh yeah, she'd graduate no question... .  but that's not the point.  After she graduates she is to return our car when she purchases her one but we told her she has about a month after grad to get one and then she's completely on her own.  Legally and financially.  Problem with that is that she's still dependent on my sister and parents and they will foot the bill for everything instead of her doing is, simply because they think she's little miss perfect. 

Last night DD and DW were texting after I told DW about what had happened during the day.  DD was being nasty, sounded like a spoiled rotten little brat.  No apology no remorse, nothing but me me me and I'll do what I want kind of nasty attitude.  Had that been me she was talking to she would not have spoke that way.  she would have just said, yes sir and nothing else really. 

We don't have a plan, however we have made it perfectly clear that she IS welcome in our home and we want to be a part of her life and want her to be a part of ours.  Even since she's been gone, we've let her know when things were going on in case she wanted to join in... .  so far she hasn't.  She doesn't contact us unless she wants something.  We'll see... .  only time will tell.

[pessim-optimist]

Thanks for clarifying superman,

those texts must have been hard to deal with for your DW... .  

This period of limited communication with dd might be a good time for learning new skills (mainly validation and setting/keeping values based boundaries), and learning more about BPD, so you & your DW can protect yourselves better from the undesirable behaviors as you try to support your dd.

... .  After she graduates ... .  she has about a month ... .  and then she's completely on her own.  Legally and financially.  Problem with that is that she's still dependent on my sister and parents and they will foot the bill for everything instead of her doing is, simply because they think she's little miss perfect.

Is that upsetting for you because you feel like they are rescuing and enabling your dd while looking at you as 'the bad guys'? Or is it something else?

Family dynamics can get complicated at times... .  Hang in there, superman.

[superman]

One of the hardest things is that she's starting to act like a snot nosed little brat who cares about only herself and has no respect for others.  This is not the way I've raised her all these years.  I've raised her to be respectful, be humble, be appreciative of what does have and the family that's there for her. 

Not so much that they are rescuing her, they are however enabling her and in some ways creating her codependence.  Instead of teaching her to make her own decisions, they are making them for her.  In the past she said we 'told her what to do'... .  however what we did was tell her our opinions and the facts and she made the decisions.  She said she hated us telling her what to do and wants to make her own decisions, good or bad outcome.  Now, she says 'grandmother' told me to do it this way.  Huh?  And it's ok for her to do that?  And we try to offer advice and we're 'telling her what to do'?  It's just all a bit ridiculous and childish and she's being enabled and led by sister and grandmother. 

On top of all of this with her, sister and grandmother post things on facebook that are quite nasty and 'directed' at me.  Yet neither of then will pick up the phone and talk to me about any of this.  Just weird. 

[qcarolr]

Superman, one of the hardest lessons I have had to learn is "Radical Acceptance" and the process of grieving the loss of the daughter I dreamed for the one that is living and breathing in my family. This LETTING GO of so many expectations is so hard. I is also about coming to terms with how I am trying to take care of my own needs by how well my DD26 fits my image of what she 'should' be.

There are lots of resources here on all these area. Have you checked out the 'what parents can do' topic at the beginning of our board? It leads you through a good educational process.

qcr  

[heronbird]

qcarolr,

Radical acceptance is the best thing that I had to learn too. Thanks for reminding me of that.