"Reality Distortion Field" - I

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

"Reality distortion field (RDF) is a term coined by Bud Tribble at Apple Computer in 1981, to describe company co-founder Steve Jobs' charisma and its effects on the developers working on the Macintosh project.[1] Tribble said that the term came from Star Trek.[1] Later the term has also been used to refer to perceptions of his keynote speeches (or "Stevenotes" by observers and devoted users of Apple computers and products. ~ Andy Hertzfeld, (February 1981). "Reality Distortion Field". Folklore.org."

Well, we each have our process. That much is for sure. And frankly all I needed to know about how to end things with her, I've known for a while but needed to do it 'my way'... . I'm not so hard on myself about it but am aware of the danger of being to 'easy' if I keep running into the same problem (as I will) and repeating the pattern.

Short story for those lucky members who have not read my long rambling posts in Undecided, Staying and Leaving... .   in no particular order.

After ending the engagement about 3.5 years ago,, we have maintained close connection... .   had a massive terrible fight after the ending when she came back and tried to hurt me... .   it escalated and there was some damage done by both of us that we do both regret... . although her version of regret doesn't allow shame or real remorse, regret or any of those typical human emotions... .   In fact, her version of the past seems to always reflect her current state of mind... . Does this sound familiar to anybody? (haha... . I know it does!)

So after she lured me back last NYE only to walk into an epic trap... . as i had made it clear I wasn't trying again if she had any other partners... .   SHe has changed this completely... .   anyway after we had sex and she had extremely powerful orgasms... . I innocently said (really)... . "Wow, whens the last time you did that" to which she exploded (she almost never explodes (THAT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHO I HAVE SEX WITH)

And off we went... .   I lost it... .   I really flipped out... . I called her every name in the book... .   

I of course was not invited to her place and stayed in the hotel for a few nights (beautiful island) and took xanax and got drunk all day to survive... .   

We made up, I stayed at her place and while she was at work, I was cleaning and found a used condom in the trash... .   

Anyway... .   to make a long story short... .   we didn't fight... .   i stayed a couple more days and when she dropped me at the airport and asked if we were in a committed relationship, I cooly responded... . "That was fun... . I had a great time... . WIll I be in a monogamous relationship with you again? No. that won't happen. thank you for being such a good host"

And since then I never gave her the chance to yelp how I was always breaking up with her, which was her mantra... .   

In May of last year I was in Los Angeles and she managed to be in SF and came to see me... .   and we had amazing sex and a great time... .   I drove her to the airport and she said... . ":)o we have a serious monogamous relationship now? To which I replied... . "No, that was fun... . but I told you ... . that's not going to happen"... .   

In October she told me she broke up with her bf (3rd time) and I visited her for her birthday... .   had a really nice time... . and made plans to come back... .   Three weeks later... .   a text (after her disappearing for 24 hours which is universal signal for having sex) her text read... .   "Sorry, no easy way to say this. I am back with X. sorry"

I survived... .   can't teach an old dog new tricks... .   didn't love it but whatever... .   

So she finally comes to my city 4 weeks ago... . i see her text on her ipad that she is meeting an ex (for business)... .   when she gets back we have a fight,... . and when she gets home she disappears and leads me to believe she had sex with someone on a first date... . in fact she finally admits she was back yet again with boyfriend (4th break up) ... .

she comes back last week for 2nd round of job interview and it's all going great... .   I make nice plans for Saturday as she is sitting on the couch texting... . and she says "Tomorrow I have to go to a trade event"... .   My hair stands up and i say is it with X? she says ARE YOU BREAKING UP WITH ME?

And I try to explain my feelings... . i try to use tools i have learned here... .   and then I excused myself to go into the bathroom and think and after I come out I sit down and say... .   "You know, you have always accused me of breaking up with you when I didn't... .   I just committed to you w2 days ago to try again... .   This is the first commitment I have made since we ended the engagement... .   and I will tell you this clearly... .   and straight... .   YES. I AM BREAKING UP WITH YOU.

And we didn't fight or yell as she calmly and cooly packed her bags and left.

Now today she texts me "Btw, for the record, when asked if I would ever be with X again, my official answer was it wasn't likely but noting is impossible"

I went on to explain I felt it was almost a sort of a test and that she said it in a way that showed zero empathy or concern... . zero... .   

By the way... .   this is her twin sisters ex boyfriend! whom my ex dated and broke up with when in bed he called her by her twin's name! He then wanted to meet back them and she showed up WTIH ANOTHER GUY... .   

She did explain that she was sorry she was not soft but was bracing for me and was scared... . protective and that I threw in the towel within minutes and she never feels safe with me.

I said.I understand actually as how could she feel safe when she was acting in ways that made me feel unsafe... . and I explained... .   "OK, imagine I have a twin brother and I date his girlfriend after they were going out for two years... . I think end badly with her... .   and now I am meeting her for 3 hours at a trade show and suddenly tell you ... .   how would you react?

She said, "I think your reaction was somewhat immature and explosive"

LOL, she's sorta right... .

It's so frustrating... .   it's just maddening... .   i see at least she truly doesn't get it... .   it's like a 12 year old... .   she doesnt get it... .   she doesnt even mean harm

Almost makes it harder to understand and deal with it.

sorry for the long and redundant vent.

[Hurt llama]

"Reality distortion field (RDF) is a term coined by Bud Tribble at Apple Computer in 1981, to describe company co-founder Steve Jobs' charisma and its effects on the developers working on the Macintosh project.[1] Tribble said that the term came from Star Trek.[1] Later the term has also been used to refer to perceptions of his keynote speeches (or "Stevenotes" by observers and devoted users of Apple computers and products. ~ Andy Hertzfeld, (February 1981). "Reality Distortion Field". Folklore.org."

Well, we each have our process. That much is for sure. And frankly all I needed to know about how to end things with her, I've known for a while but needed to do it 'my way'... . I'm not so hard on myself about it but am aware of the danger of being to 'easy' if I keep running into the same problem (as I will) and repeating the pattern.

Short story for those lucky members who have not read my long rambling posts in Undecided, Staying and Leaving... .   in no particular order.

After ending the engagement about 3.5 years ago,, we have maintained close connection... .   had a massive terrible fight after the ending when she came back and tried to hurt me... .   it escalated and there was some damage done by both of us that we do both regret... . although her version of regret doesn't allow shame or real remorse, regret or any of those typical human emotions... .   In fact, her version of the past seems to always reflect her current state of mind... . Does this sound familiar to anybody? (haha... . I know it does!)

So after she lured me back last NYE only to walk into an epic trap... . as i had made it clear I wasn't trying again if she had any other partners... .   SHe has changed this completely... .   anyway after we had sex and she had extremely powerful orgasms... . I innocently said (really)... . "Wow, whens the last time you did that" to which she exploded (she almost never explodes (THAT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHO I HAVE SEX WITH)

And off we went... .   I lost it... .   I really flipped out... . I called her every name in the book... .   

I of course was not invited to her place and stayed in the hotel for a few nights (beautiful island) and took xanax and got drunk all day to survive... .   

We made up, I stayed at her place and while she was at work, I was cleaning and found a used condom in the trash... .   

Anyway... .   to make a long story short... .   we didn't fight... .   i stayed a couple more days and when she dropped me at the airport and asked if we were in a committed relationship, I cooly responded... . "That was fun... . I had a great time... . WIll I be in a monogamous relationship with you again? No. that won't happen. thank you for being such a good host"

And since then I never gave her the chance to yelp how I was always breaking up with her, which was her mantra... .   

In May of last year I was in Los Angeles and she managed to be in SF and came to see me... .   and we had amazing sex and a great time... .   I drove her to the airport and she said... . ":)o we have a serious monogamous relationship now? To which I replied... . "No, that was fun... . but I told you ... . that's not going to happen"... .   

In October she told me she broke up with her bf (3rd time) and I visited her for her birthday... .   had a really nice time... . and made plans to come back... .   Three weeks later... .   a text (after her disappearing for 24 hours which is universal signal for having sex) her text read... .   "Sorry, no easy way to say this. I am back with X. sorry"

I survived... .   can't teach an old dog new tricks... .   didn't love it but whatever... .   

So she finally comes to my city 4 weeks ago... . i see her text on her ipad that she is meeting an ex (for business)... .   when she gets back we have a fight,... . and when she gets home she disappears and leads me to believe she had sex with someone on a first date... . in fact she finally admits she was back yet again with boyfriend (4th break up) ... .

she comes back last week for 2nd round of job interview and it's all going great... .   I make nice plans for Saturday as she is sitting on the couch texting... . and she says "Tomorrow I have to go to a trade event"... .   My hair stands up and i say is it with X? she says ARE YOU BREAKING UP WITH ME?

And I try to explain my feelings... . i try to use tools i have learned here... .   and then I excused myself to go into the bathroom and think and after I come out I sit down and say... .   "You know, you have always accused me of breaking up with you when I didn't... .   I just committed to you w2 days ago to try again... .   This is the first commitment I have made since we ended the engagement... .   and I will tell you this clearly... .   and straight... .   YES. I AM BREAKING UP WITH YOU.

And we didn't fight or yell as she calmly and cooly packed her bags and left.

Now today she texts me "Btw, for the record, when asked if I would ever be with X again, my official answer was it wasn't likely but noting is impossible"

I went on to explain I felt it was almost a sort of a test and that she said it in a way that showed zero empathy or concern... . zero... .   

By the way... .   this is her twin sisters ex boyfriend! whom my ex dated and broke up with when in bed he called her by her twin's name! He then wanted to meet back them and she showed up WTIH ANOTHER GUY... .   

She did explain that she was sorry she was not soft but was bracing for me and was scared... . protective and that I threw in the towel within minutes and she never feels safe with me.

I said.I understand actually as how could she feel safe when she was acting in ways that made me feel unsafe... . and I explained... .   "OK, imagine I have a twin brother and I date his girlfriend after they were going out for two years... . I think end badly with her... .   and now I am meeting her for 3 hours at a trade show and suddenly tell you ... .   how would you react?

She said, "I think your reaction was somewhat immature and explosive"

LOL, she's sorta right... .

It's so frustrating... .   it's just maddening... .   i see at least she truly doesn't get it... .   it's like a 12 year old... .   she doesnt get it... .   she doesnt even mean harm

Almost makes it harder to understand and deal with it.

sorry for the long and redundant vent.

[HarmKrakow]

Mate, so much dysfunction it makes my head go dizzy. Like serious, it makes my head go dizzy. Most of what you endured here I've witnessed first hand as well and it feels like im witnessing my last few months with my ex again.

And you know what, reading all your stories makes me happy that i'm "done with" my BPD ex 

The mere thought of actually going through again what you wrote down here, is a bridge to far for me. I can't take another hit in my life by a BPD. I can't haha.

Utter respect for you that your still standing on 2 legs brother 

[Hurt llama]

Mate, so much dysfunction it makes my head go dizzy. Like serious, it makes my head go dizzy. Most of what you endured here I've witnessed first hand as well and it feels like im witnessing my last few months with my ex again.

And you know what, reading all your stories makes me happy that i'm "done with" my BPD ex 

The mere thought of actually going through again what you wrote down here, is a bridge to far for me. I can't take another hit in my life by a BPD. I can't haha.

Utter respect for you that your still standing on 2 legs brother 

I don't have the energy to write up the OP... .   (Original Pain)... .  

We met online... .   she lives a few thousand miles away... .   I was extremely uncomfortable in our online connection too... .   but when we met... .   holy cow... .   it was insane... .   both of us... .   she literally had to sit down... . it was overwhelming... .

But not too overwhelming that she started seeing someone else a few weeks later and finally when confronted said... .   "I went to him to see if I truly loved you"... .

I mean can you make this stuff up?

Then when she actually cheated (she's actually oddly not a cheater in the traditional sense) she said... . "WHY IS IT OK FOR MEN TO DO IT AND NOT WOMEN?"

It's 'funny' to look  back and see that I wasn't ever really unreasonable or a maniac about any of this... . my outrage was not about the act but was about the blaming me, etc.

She's not a rager, not a drunk... . it's bad that she's so close... .   it's just this 'one little thing''... .   .

I really start to feel that I'm the crazy one for how I react to her!

I am interested in how she responds to the flurry of texts i sent earlier... . the poor thing is really trying to get it... . she is... .   she just doesn't and can't... . and if I say it again... .   and louder... .   or more often... .   all I do is prove that I'm crazy... . and then she feels insecure because she's with someone crazy... .   haha... .  

[Hurt llama]

I meant Reality Distortion Field

Anyone read Steve Jobs biography? That guy was all sorts of personalty disorders!

[Hurt llama]

Well she texted me and I listened carefully .

I can see how the 20mg of Lexapro is helping her and at the same time these meds in my experience can add to their already detached selves... . or at least in her case.

She was cool and very well spoken... . SHe explained her position and did so extremely well.

Here are some snippets:

"THis is what I get for trying again. Once again the relationship is OVER"

"This is not what a marriage or relationship is supposed to be about. As usual you throw in the towel way to quickly"

OK, that set me off... .   I wrote about MY feelings and that she's not all wrong... .   and it's not about right or wrong but why can't she at least TRY to see it from my perspective? and I got nowhere... .   incredible... .   really. but i get why.

She explained it was a business networking event, It had nothing to do with the ex who took her there. She said she expected me to react as (yes she said this) a 'normal man'.

I of course reacted to that... .   WHAt?

then she said... .   "You are not stable. You may have been stable with other ex's and girlfriends but you are unstable with me" (holy moly)

I asked her to please stop calling me unstable... .   that it was not nice and can lead to nowhere good... . she replied, "Why? It's true and these are my feelings"

Obviously I was getting sucked into an area that had no upside... . i was starting to get mad and then she texts, "Listen. You can keep on typing. I don't want this to ruin my sleep. I will read your texts in the morning. Goodnight"

===

OK, more than just a rambling post in a redundant rambling thread.

This is good for me... .   and yeah I know I 'should not' require more 'proof'.

But here's my plan for myself... .   for the night I logged out of iMessage and blocked her number so that in the unlikely event she wakes up at 4am,, I dont have to get into this and destroy my day tomorrow.

I know that I cannot change her... . I accepted that and did try again... . I do love her and she is not all that bad other than insane... .   (that was for you Harm)... .   but the real point is that I am not moving from my position... .   I am not defending it or explaining it yet again... .   She's locked into her position and in her 'defense' she is stressed out of her mind... .   no job and waiting with baited breath for the official job offer that she is expecting... .   she's broke... .   was down to almost zero dollars... . this job is a 50-75% increase over last job... . it's an insane dream job for her and she lives for work... .   the woman goes nuts if she's not working... .   well 'goes nuts' is a bad description ... . haha

But regardless, she is sure of her position and believe it or not, I respect it, I understand it and all of that... .   she doesnt get that I wasn't telling her what to do but simply to express that I have feelings about her being with an ex lover and her twins ex lover... .   but what do i want? her to express shame? remorse? guilt? umm... .   yeah I do and that's part of the problem... .   obviously it's never going to happen.

If I had a wish it's always been for her to 'get it' but that's not happening and yeah maybe it could work if I followed the lessons here and worked with her and all... .   She's a great match for me... . she's loyal in her twisted way... .   blah blah blah... . but as I posted the other day... .   clearly I deserve more and better and to do the things required to make it work... .   would make me lose respect for myself and I cant do them even if i tried.

So what's the hold up here?

Crunch time... .   Time to be flat out honest.

I'm so connected to her I am afraid to let go... .   she feels it too of course... .  

and maybe I am making excuses for myself, I know I am... .   but I am journaling it all here for a reason... .   to keep a history and accountability of sorts.

I need to remind myself as this is all playing in the background, I do have my plan for myself to keep moving my work forward... .   She has been a very positive person in my life believe it or not... .   she has always encouraged me on a daily basis to take care of myself and do all the things that I need to do.

I'm trying to make her obsolete... .

And she's helping more than she knows.

[Hurt llama]

This might sound off or nuts but here it is.

In my mind now it's a 'race'... .   a healthy race.

a race I won't share with her... .

The race is against myself that I have to get stronger and faster so that I am in better shape and hopefully can heal before the next bomb blast comes.

Because I know... .   I so know... .   that I am vulnerable... . and that if I play with the tiger ... . i am gonna get hurt and that if I keep communicating as we continue as text friends, diollars to donuts that woman will find another guy so fast it's not funny... .   and my hunch which may be wrong is it will be the ex again... .   it's perfect!

And I am a sitting duck!

I better must and will get out of harms way... . because crazy is coming... .   and I can't take another bombing run with her and another guy... .

I have a plan... .   wish me luck... . i will need it.

I'll add ... . if she gets that job? It's two months in my town to train! OMG... .   the only good part of our long sordid relationship was it was 3K miles away! I have let the animal out of the cage by OFFICIALLY ending us... .   That is worse than North Korea right now... . She will launch... .   I don't blame her... . It's what she must do.

Time to activate detach mode... .   it's tricky but I can do it... .   and I know how... . this is the time... .   I won't go NC but it's Stage One LC... .   During that the rule is never to text first... .   do not call ever... .   no emailing... .   respond only if she reaches out first and keep it short on point and be careful.

During all this is to really work hard on my work and other good distractions... .

Stay tuned (if anyone is following! )

[Hurt llama]

I emailed her... .   and won't send anymore (please god)... . I'm trying to be soothing and careful... .   I dont want to hurt her or make her feel badly... .   It only comes back to hurt me if i do. her usual response via text is something really warm... . such as... . "You know I delete all of your emails anyway. You send too many"

==

ok, I got it.

you think I am unstable…I think I am unstable around you and your behavior is erratic at times and confusing often... .

but i think you are doing better and better and I know you are trying.

I don't want to get into labeling you... . i have told you my thoughts to try to help and I have stopped as it's not helpful and no one can make anyone see anything... . it is all individual process.

anyway, please stop the mea culpa thing…i got hurt too... .


and as said, sure, i can see your side and view but you don't see mine... . you do not give one iota any of my feelings and its incredible... . but maybe 20mg of Lexapro actually can detach someone in good and bad ways... . i think it's good for you but you seem so ice cold to me…hard to describe exactly but wondering why you are so hard to me... .

anyway…please stop[ the victim thing... . i have been there for you... . i have put my hand in my pocket and when you were with X and trying to act like you were not.

I have lent you money ... . I have supported you emotionally and mentally and in all ways that I can…

You refuse to see how I felt last Saturday.I was so happy to be spending the day with you... . i wanted to make plans ….I do not do wwll with surprises and obviously I have a HUGE problem with you being around ex lovers and I am sorry that's not so unusual... . especially as you made it clear you would consider him if not with me….and I bet anything he's considering it too... . and the thought of that makes me want to projectile vomit and how you my so called soulmate can't even see any of how i feel is incredibly painful to me.

I don't want to hurt you anymore.

[Hurt llama]

oops... .   couldn't edit... .

the last line was important... .

We ended years ago... . and it was over forever last NYE…and what I need you don't have... . and what you need I don't have.

===

[Hurt llama]

I must add this to my journal... .   it's priceless... .

when I was out to dinner with her after finding the used condom... .   it was a dark romantic restaurant... . I had hours to calm down and I was all cleaned up, relaxed, well dressed and on medication and a few beers ... .  

I was just staring at her as she was talking... .   and i waited to a pause and said in a calm voice, "Baby, you know we have been fighting a lot since I got here and I don't want to upset you anymore. I really don't. But, well, today I was um, cleaning up, and I could not help but notice a used condom in the trash"

She turned green and cooly replied, "I am sorry you had to see that"

but as we talked a bit more then came the punchline I am so glad I just remembered and will never forget.

She smiled and said, ":)o you realize how many men would consider themselves lucky to be in your shoes?"

(I'm not making up a word of this)

Two days later when I left, I also left a pair of shoes and I said they are for the next guy to wear so he knows what it's like to be in my shoes.

What a thing to have said to me... .   She's really a piece of work.

[Surrender]

WOW Hurt llama... .   I'm so sorry for such pain and agony in light of loving someone and being helpless in that. How the obscure and narcissistic deadly charm can even damage one in light of 'reason' and all things rational yet there we are.

You did good leaving your shoes behind.   

[Hurt llama]

WOW Hurt llama... .   I'm so sorry for such pain and agony in light of loving someone and being helpless in that. How the obscure and narcissistic deadly charm can even damage one in light of 'reason' and all things rational yet there we are.

You did good leaving your shoes behind.   

Thank you CW... . She actually sent me a new pair of shoes when I got home. True story

She's texting me about work and like a drone I respond in 5 words and say things like "That's great. you are good at that" and "Smart. good decision".

I'm so drained... .   Whether she gets a job and comes to train in my town or not, it shouldn't matter... .

I don't know how I am going to survive NC... .   right now I'm going to try to just focus on my day... . and don't engage in going over the autopsy for the 1000th time... .   She did score a hit by calling me unstable.

I made a 30 second video of a giraffe falling over with a voiceover about instability... .

I think I am wasting my creativity... .   just a little... .  

[Surrender]

Thank you CW... . She actually sent me a new pair of shoes when I got home. True story

She's texting me about work and like a drone I respond in 5 words and say things like "That's great. you are good at that" and "Smart. good decision".

I'm so drained... .   Whether she gets a job and comes to train in my town or not, it shouldn't matter... .

I don't know how I am going to survive NC... .   right now I'm going to try to just focus on my day... . and don't engage in going over the autopsy for the 1000th time... .   She did score a hit by calling me unstable.

I made a 30 second video of a giraffe falling over with a voiceover about instability... .

I think I am wasting my creativity... .   just a little... .  

Hurt llama, I enjoy reading anything you write because I can see the wealth of knowledge, the intelligence and compassion. What I have noticed about the people here is that these traits are in abundance here. That made me feel better because for a while I was doubting my intelligence, wisdom, my ability to process information correctly, what I was seeing and believing and the things I was doubting and denying in general. I see by being here that if anything it appears that the intelligently complex individual endowed with much seems to be able to 'endure' loving our even more complex exes whom suffer this illness.

Your expression in writing reflects your creativity and even though I know this is ultimately so tragic, I couldn't help but laugh when reading how you described yourself actually giving non-answers which would have been obvious to the world around you with the exception of your ex who is just happy to be engaging I guess. I do seem to always get gobsmacked when I hear us being called the 'unstable' ones.

The fact that you can make a falling giraffe with a voice over about it is awesome. It is healthy to be using your creativity and sense of humor to get through this. What ever it takes. The first 3 weeks of N/C were for me the worst, it has gone from agony to bearable agony so far. I suspect time will ease it bit by bit because I can see an improvement between now and three weeks ago. It's still hell though.  :'(

You have a wonderful sense of humor and I find it helpful to read the things you write so thank you. 

[Hurt llama]

Hurt llama, I enjoy reading anything you write because I can see the wealth of knowledge, the intelligence and compassion. What I have noticed about the people here is that these traits are in abundance here. That made me feel better because for a while I was doubting my intelligence, wisdom, my ability to process information correctly, what I was seeing and believing and the things I was doubting and denying in general. I see by being here that if anything it appears that the intelligently complex individual endowed with much seems to be able to 'endure' loving our even more complex exes whom suffer this illness.

Your expression in writing reflects your creativity and even though I know this is ultimately so tragic, I couldn't help but laugh when reading how you described yourself actually giving non-answers which would have been obvious to the world around you with the exception of your ex who is just happy to be engaging I guess. I do seem to always get gobsmacked when I hear us being called the 'unstable' ones.

The fact that you can make a falling giraffe with a voice over about it is awesome. It is healthy to be using your creativity and sense of humor to get through this. What ever it takes. The first 3 weeks of N/C were for me the worst, it has gone from agony to bearable agony so far. I suspect time will ease it bit by bit because I can see an improvement between now and three weeks ago. It's still hell though.  :'(

You have a wonderful sense of humor and I find it helpful to read the things you write so thank you.  [/quote]
That's a really nice post to read. Thank you very much for sharing with me.

I think I watched the video I made last night about 5 times, laughing out loud each time... .

=======

This is shot on my bed with my iphone as I am holding the iPhone, trying to get the Giraffe to stand up and using my hand as the Llama Character speaking to my dog and giraffe... .

Here's the dialogue:

Llama: Did you hear the one about The Llama and the Giraffe?

Llama; No? ah ok. Ah this is hard to do this... .   (talking shooting and holding the giraffe).

Llama: (Talking to the Giraffe) Don't fall down! You sem... .   un-stable... . ha ha ha

Llama: (giraffe falls over) Ooops, you were unstable. You see? Good night.

My dog was really funny wiht his expression that seemed to be saying a combination of "What the heck?" and "I am embarrassed for you"

But I have written my experiences, especially last new years eve... .   and I wrote it as a beautiful funny and a bit ironic... .   It was a love story believe it or not... .   MY character in the story was ridiculous... . as my reactions were ridiculous and compared to my ex who was cool, calm, collected, reasonable... .   I come off sounding like a raving madman... .

I sent it to her and well... .   she didn't appreciate my perspective... .   (duh)

My story feels to be unusual in the context here and yet it's more the same than different... . The absurdity of my BPD ex's way of seeing things is just mind boggling... .   And even though I know her for almost 6 years... .   it is only very recently that I see her as this almost 'blank' even innocent, hurt child... .   She just doesn't get it... . I know we all know what I mean about that... .

As in all humor, it's based a bit on anger and pain... .   and I do try to experience my life creatively and somehow find catharsis in stressful relationships like this... .

I clearly see the danger though... . The tragic sadness and it's horrible... .   I am not out of the woods yet... .   I feel like posting here is like being in a 12 step program and we each get up and admit or speak about our past and present and if we slip... .   we talk about it... .

And yet, I feel if I slip again... .   I will be too embarrassed to admit it... .   as I have wanted 'evidence' or 'proof' that my ex just can't give me what I need... .   and the hardest part is that there is so much compatibility there... .  

(as i say this , I can't help but here voices... .   voices that give examples of maybe that's not what real 'compatibility' is... . and that her warped reality in which she can dump me in October to go back with her boyfriend but find it to painful to hear about me dating is for lack of a better word... .   nuts!

We are all very individual and as others post, the process is of course individual in the lessons we can or do learn... . The question of if and why do we need such extreme behavior from our ex's for us to maybe learn the lesson is something I think about daily.

There is addiction that I hate to admit... . I dont want to admit... .   I rather talk about 'process' and lessons that need to be learned than think about the fact, I feel lost without connecting... .   and dread imagining her dating again and the insanity on my part is yet again I have dropped her! and that i have created the scenario in which I clearly can and will be hurt if I allow it.

Thank you for reading this crazy journal of sorts. Not very proud of it.

[Surrender]

It is a profound combination of things and yet what you said about 'addiction' hit me like a ton of bricks. With my ex I felt alive and truly awake which is one of the many things I loved about being with him. His ability to constantly assess everything around him put me on alert 24/7 yet it made me thrive unlike ever before. I thrived because 'everything was on the line' constantly and there was something about that that made my heart really pump. Feelings came with what I perceived as 'real conversation, reflection and a consciousness that made you be accountable for your actions even if it was uncomfortable or made you really think about how you behaved or what ever. Thing is, I loved being finally able to be like that with a man. Throughout my life ALL my relationships were lame and relatively 'un-alive' compared to my ex-UBPD and to be honest, I actually was so "UN" everything with all my exes no matter how handsome, intelligent or what ever they were that I couldn't bear it. I was utterly STIMULATED with my ex.

I loved my ex more because he forced me to account for 'everything' and that made me think twice in a good way. I had never been with a man who could have such an effect on me before. In my past men if anything just let me be... .   for fear of my opposition and strength and to be honest, I think things got lost along the way between men and women in the murky waters of all that this world has now become in the realm of all things 'undefined' between what a man and woman are separately and together. My ex broke that mold and knew he was a man and as a man knew what he liked and didn't like in a woman, however his illness exaggerated everything to the umpf degree which made it UN-liveable. But I felt so ALIVE with him and I fear that I won't ever have that again. Just feels like it's all down hill from here as strange as that may sound so I get exactly the struggle you find yourself in not wanting to lose or share her but also finding yourself at the cross roads where you know you just can't keep doing this anymore either.

Learning these lessons and processing and even time just don't take the edge off the pain. Today I plummeted wandering around my place aimless, forgetting where I left everything and then suddenly I broke out crying and heard the words "I miss you baby" as I was crying.

No easy way out.

[Hurt llama]

I get it... . totally... .

I'm no 'role model' (obviously) but... .   I can share (some) positives that I want to share and hopefully gives you a little faith... .

I do know that the devastation I felt early on when I learned my ex was dating someone at the same time as me (not the end of the world or sick but extremely disturbing... . ) but when she disappeared when we had made the commitment it was infidelity... . the first I have ever experienced... .   and it was like I was dying... . i was crying like a baby... . primal... .   I was in complete shock... . utter disbelief... .   I got her back (vomit at this thought) ... .

My point is that as this relationship has developed the dispair and the feelings of grief are a small fraction of what they were... .   In the beginning I would come home at night and beat the bed in anger... .   as hard as i could... . i hurt myself I was so angry... . and I stopped in the middle and said to myself... . "Would you hit her if you could?" and I knew, I never could I would die first.

I have ripped myself to tiny pieces... .   examining everything... . over and over... .   walking around my house calling her horrible names (she was 3000 miles away)... . I was going out to strip clubs every single night for over 300 nights... .   I called it the Den of the Sociopath... . (I thought she was a sociopath)... . I sold the watch I bought her to fund this 'experiment'. I talked to my therapist about it and she didn't discourage this journey of discover... . I envisioned myself as this artist and that going into the Sociopath's Lair and 'mastering' it, I would emerge stronger... .   I owned the place... .   almost literally... .   I was the master of this dark environment... .  

I dated a girl half my age... .   and it was 10x more pain than with my ex... .   it was insane... .   I needed her to forget my ex... .   but the damage I experienced with her (NPD, etc duh) was the stuff nightmares were made of... .   and I did it anyway... .   I drank every night... . but was not addicted and I wasn't I guess.

I went through a love of this girl (we actually survived it all and it was a very intense rare bond even as dysfunctional as it sounds (and was)... .  

I am grateful to her... .   and as expected, the girl I chose was a very special person... .   there was rough and tough times but I did emerge stronger and better from it... .  

But not cured either... .

Here's a couple of songs I have been playing over and over... .  

It does get better... . but I wish I could speak from a much further along place.

as of right now... .   my new habit is to log out of iMessage, block her calls and texts and at least protect myself for 10 hours. The real truth is I am 10x worse than my ex... . I pester her constantly with texts... . pictures and emails... .   I keep her engaged and I see and know that I am more than playing with fire... . I set her free... .   and what do I want now?.

I forget the song... . maybe Eminem... . where he kills his gf, buries her and digs her up to kill her again... . and that's what it feels I want to do... . I think my anger for the infidelity 5 years ago, never was resolved and the trust was shattered and I got her back, got engaged and got in deep then blew her away in her worst possible care scenario... . Was it revenge? No, not completely... .   do I regret it? sometimes and sometimes I smile and think... . "don't f with me"... . Or I tell myself that to feel better... . there is no winning I have learned.

you sound like a creative type as well. I worry my art is effected and not in a good way... .   I am numb and frozen most of the time... .   Need to break on through.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5OmSI3vAl8

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDvisTysjlQ

Jack White is my hero... .  

[Hurt llama]

and yes... .   same here wth my ex... .   I felt more alive than ever... . more engaged... . more in love (obviously)

I am "gratified' in knowing that she will never experience anything again like what we experienced together... . But part of me wishes we both could get that feeling again with other partners... .   even if she met someone else... .   if she were happy and it was real, it might teach me and show me what is possible... .   but I know and she knows it just isn't going to happen... . and I dont say that with happiness.

I related to what you described and I delighted in my ex's ability to appreciate life... .   like a child... . she was delighted in small things (same as me) and how I de;ighted her with character's I created... .   she was enthralled... . she would shake her head constantly wondering aloud "You have ruined me forever... . I will never meet anyone like you again"... .   (gee thanks for sharing baby... . )

But she took special joy in cooking, shopping and really had a childlike way of experiencing things... . I loved it and loved her more even when I see and saw it just can't work without her participating with me to make it work... .  

I thought I could do it alone... .   after reading Staying here on the forum... .   But we don't have kids together... .   I dont have the need to make this work no matter what... .   and I cant even if I tried... . and I did try... .   and I dont blame her entirely... .

For myself, I a not especially proud of my 'plan' on recovery... .   it's bs really... .   we texted 100x today... . finally she disappeared and I sent a last text and shut it down.

She's broke... .   dead broke... .   awaiting word of a dream job she is probably going to get... .   and she asked to borrow money and I sent it... .   She oddly always pays me back... . ... .

But she is trying to get her life in order... .   she is probably as tough as I am (ugh) resolute in her way... .   unyielding... . I have to respect her for this... . she suffers from severe anxiety... .   taking meds for it but she will cry and tremble under her bed like a cat... . and yet she is stoic and manages to rise up when the chips are down... .

She scares the crap out of me.

I have true PTSD here... .   and shake when I imagine her with a new guy or her ancient ridiculous ex... .   I feel the text coming... .   saying... .   "I am with someone else... . Sorry it didn't work out. Be well."

BE WELL ... .   ... .   to me that reads as 'f you'... .   and her way of texting 'thx' at the end of a text reads as 'GFY".

Not making this up... .   haha

[Surrender]

But she is trying to get her life in order... .   she is probably as tough as I am (ugh) resolute in her way... .   unyielding... . I have to respect her for this... . she suffers from severe anxiety... .   taking meds for it but she will cry and tremble under her bed like a cat... . and yet she is stoic and manages to rise up when the chips are down... .

She scares the crap out of me.

I have true PTSD here... .   and shake when I imagine her with a new guy or her ancient ridiculous ex... .   I feel the text coming... .   saying... .   "I am with someone else... . Sorry it didn't work out. Be well."

BE WELL ... .   ... .   to me that reads as 'f you'... .   and her way of texting 'thx' at the end of a text reads as 'GFY".

Not making this up... .   haha

oh geesh you just reminded me... .   for me it was "your always in my prayers" or "rest well and try not to think too much" which also was a glorious 'GFY'.

What you said about your exes strength was quite something in light of what she battles within herself. Quite something and sad. That is what I find strange is the 'strength' and super resilience considering a constant array of sabotaging and constant suffering. My ex was the epitome of 'stubborn', if he made a decision about something than it was cut in stone and immoveable. That is why this last break up was the real thing... .   it wasn't the usual push and pull with regrets and sadness. It was the stern cold impersonal voice that spoke to me. I felt like I was talking to a collections agency personnel. That impersonal voice that said I have been cut in stone and am now immoveable. His words were "I'm firm and won't change my mind". Then of course at the end was his lovely "your always in my prayers" (puke) and 'FYVM'.

I agree the beauty we see in our exes is hard to compare and in my mind with my ex unparalleled. Comparatively speaking my exes were a blank slate but when we can draw upon so many qualities that we loved and adored that filled our cup, it makes it understandable why your still texting 100x a day. Sometimes I wish I was in the position but it's only the part of me that is still hanging onto the dream of it all.

I'm still trying to wake up and meet this reality head on without trying to fool myself anymore. I think when a couple is closely enmeshed with a focused 'need' that compliments one another and the couple as a whole, that makes it tough to beat and tougher to walk away from.

You've an incredible noggin and heart to boot so sunshiny days somewhere down the road are coming I'm sure, though it doesn't feel like that is even possible but I sure hope that is the case for us... .   cuz the world sure does seem dim in comparison to him.

As for me I bought a PS3 with a ton of games for some escape therapy.

And agreed, Jack White for sure.

[Hurt llama]

hahaha... .   "always in my prayers" it really sounds like a fy... .   so funny... .  

I'm so damaged from this if I communicate with any woman and she texts or writes "Be well'... .   I know there's not chance... .

The funny part is I told my ex... .   that when she says "Be Well" it annoys me to no end... .  

She decided the new thing to say to me to annoy me is to call me "bro'... .   Bro?

I do have to laugh though as it is funny... .   I just signed into my imessage account for a minute and I got her texts from earlier tonight... .

In them she said she called to share a really nice story... .   about a friend of her friend and how she did some casual consulting for a couple of hours and he insisted on giving her a beautiful $500 dress (he owns a dress shop).

The interesting thing is that she went out of her way to tell me that he is 'confirmed gay' and that "You will just love this dress"... .

I actually do sort of appreciate the manners of assuring me that this was a gay man (my ex has a very odd habit of not lying... .   I know that sounds weird but she doesnt lie and rather uses her direct bluntness as a hammer of sorts... .   it's almost chilling at times)... .

It's sad how she refers to the dress and how I will love it... .   she's such a child... .   it's depressing... .   she just can't get it... .   and this is the maddening part... .   to any normal person... .   you would give in a little... .   from what i am learning about BPD is that to acknowledge certain things within themselves is very very painful... . It explains how hard I have made it as I have no problem acknowledging the darkside of my own self and we all have parts of our selves we are not proud of... .

The BPD doesn't seem to be able to express shame, empathy or remorse.

But she got a pretty new dress... . maybe we can video chat so I can see it... .   noo

[Surrender]

hahaha... .   "always in my prayers" it really sounds like a fy... .   so funny... .  

I'm so damaged from this if I communicate with any woman and she texts or writes "Be well'... .   I know there's not chance... .

The funny part is I told my ex... .   that when she says "Be Well" it annoys me to no end... .  

She decided the new thing to say to me to annoy me is to call me "bro'... .   Bro?

I do have to laugh though as it is funny... .   I just signed into my imessage account for a minute and I got her texts from earlier tonight... .

I actually do sort of appreciate the manners of assuring me that this was a gay man (my ex has a very odd habit of not lying... .   I know that sounds weird but she doesnt lie and rather uses her direct bluntness as a hammer of sorts... .   it's almost chilling at times)... .



It's sad how she refers to the dress and how I will love it... .   she's such a child... .   it's depressing... .   she just can't get it... .   and this is the maddening part... .   to any normal person... .   you would give in a little... .   from what i am learning about BPD is that to acknowledge certain things within themselves is very very painful... . It explains how hard I have made it as I have no problem acknowledging the darkside of my own self and we all have parts of our selves we are not proud of... .

The BPD doesn't seem to be able to express shame, empathy or remorse.

But she got a pretty new dress... . maybe we can video chat so I can see it... .   noo

Yes it is amazing how those experiences now become our triggers. Your the first person that has an ex who has referred to the Not Lying that I have read of so far which is interesting because mine was the exact same. In fact that was paramount to him, hence how he spent his life scrutinizing EVERYTHING I ever said and did even if I was referring to something that happened 20 years ago... .   if there was anything he could find in the form of a discrepancy than I was utterly devoured by his scrutinizing wrath. Well she got a nice pretty dress and I'm sure that will make her happy for tonight. It's one day at a time after all.

What you said about the BPD not being able to express shame, empathy or remorse is so interesting to me. Is that because that would shatter EVERYTHING and hence they would then totally self-destruct? I read that their brains fire differently and that certain areas remain inactive that are typically active in normal people, hence how they respond to emotions and to what they are perceiving.  It is fascinating but as I read about it I feel what I felt with my ex which was a sense of helplessness. Like nothing I did or could do would alter or change anything.

I felt utterly helpless and just had to witness the train wreck coming my way without being able to change a thing.

[goldylamont]

daaaaaaaaaaamn! i think i'm lucky i don't keep in contact with my ex so much. i just got back on these boards b/c she decided to text/call me all the sudden after she broke up with her current bf. i'm seeing someone now, and happy, so i have this to protect me, but good grief i dunno i'd have to be really strong to completely ice her out and not say anything back if i weren't in a relationship. good luck Hurt llama, you know, maybe there's some tricks you can come up with that will force you to not be able to contact her? or for her to not contact you? i dunno, i have to think about it. like, for me i tend to do the all-or-nothing approach--like 6 months ago i put all my cards on the table, layed out exactly how i felt in a love letter, then gave it about a 10% chance of working out how i wanted. it didn't, but then this was perfect b/c i had my answer, you know? man, it's really hard detaching i know, is there any way you could maybe do some self examination, figure out specifically what you'd need from her and then find a way to find out if she would comply? this is what kind of worked for me; it's like i knew beforehand it wasn't going to work out, but i forced the situation so that i would SEE it for myself. not sure if this makes sense. good luck with it though

[Hurt llama]

daaaaaaaaaaamn! i think i'm lucky i don't keep in contact with my ex so much. i just got back on these boards b/c she decided to text/call me all the sudden after she broke up with her current bf. i'm seeing someone now, and happy, so i have this to protect me, but good grief i dunno i'd have to be really strong to completely ice her out and not say anything back if i weren't in a relationship. good luck Hurt llama, you know, maybe there's some tricks you can come up with that will force you to not be able to contact her? or for her to not contact you? i dunno, i have to think about it. like, for me i tend to do the all-or-nothing approach--like 6 months ago i put all my cards on the table, layed out exactly how i felt in a love letter, then gave it about a 10% chance of working out how i wanted. it didn't, but then this was perfect b/c i had my answer, you know? man, it's really hard detaching i know, is there any way you could maybe do some self examination, figure out specifically what you'd need from her and then find a way to find out if she would comply? this is what kind of worked for me; it's like i knew beforehand it wasn't going to work out, but i forced the situation so that i would SEE it for myself. not sure if this makes sense. good luck with it though

It's one day at a time... .   I know right now I am not really open to other women... .   that's unusual for me... . I am shut down and maybe that makes sense... . feels weird though... .

Your last sentence about specifically saying what I need from her is exactly what I just did... .   and in her defense... .   she had no chance... .   none... .   I have a distorted view of her... .   I really do... . I'm not defending her even slightly but I see her in ways she just isn't... . but it doesnt' matter as at the core I know my fear of her is justified and that without empathy or a sense of understanding of how I felt when she was attending a event with an ex,, there is no chance... . zero, nada, none... .  

it's the 'line in the sand' moment we all face at some point when we are crystal clear... .   It's not even about me being 'right' anymore... .   She just doesnt get it... . doesnt get why it might bother me even though i accepted she has some business connection wtih this guy... .

Even if I am wrong... . to me... .   it literally is like handing her knife and asking her to stick it in my heart... .  

I'm not giving myself an out here but even if i see her again and we have sex and all that... .   there is no chance... . i have to organically accept (and I am) that as another poster shared here... .   she is an untamed stallion... . she can't be ridden for long... . she needs to be free even if she says she doesn't... .   she will throw me or any man... .   and she thinks the fact she was married for so long is 'proof' that she is stable... .   sorry baby... . no... .   you lost it when you had your first baby... . and in my opinion it triggered her and she went full Vampire after that... .

let me know what you come up with for my plan though!

All suggestions welcome and a silver bullet or stake and hammer is appreciated.

[goldylamont]

hahaha... .   "always in my prayers" it really sounds like a fy... .   so funny... .  

I'm so damaged from this if I communicate with any woman and she texts or writes "Be well'... .   I know there's not chance... .

The funny part is I told my ex... .   that when she says "Be Well" it annoys me to no end... .  

She decided the new thing to say to me to annoy me is to call me "bro'... .   Bro?

I do have to laugh though as it is funny... .   I just signed into my imessage account for a minute and I got her texts from earlier tonight... .

I actually do sort of appreciate the manners of assuring me that this was a gay man (my ex has a very odd habit of not lying... .   I know that sounds weird but she doesnt lie and rather uses her direct bluntness as a hammer of sorts... .   it's almost chilling at times)... .



It's sad how she refers to the dress and how I will love it... .   she's such a child... .   it's depressing... .   she just can't get it... .   and this is the maddening part... .   to any normal person... .   you would give in a little... .   from what i am learning about BPD is that to acknowledge certain things within themselves is very very painful... . It explains how hard I have made it as I have no problem acknowledging the darkside of my own self and we all have parts of our selves we are not proud of... .

The BPD doesn't seem to be able to express shame, empathy or remorse.

But she got a pretty new dress... . maybe we can video chat so I can see it... .   noo

Yes it is amazing how those experiences now become our triggers. Your the first person that has an ex who has referred to the Not Lying that I have read of so far which is interesting because mine was the exact same. In fact that was paramount to him, hence how he spent his life scrutinizing EVERYTHING I ever said and did even if I was referring to something that happened 20 years ago... .   if there was anything he could find in the form of a discrepancy than I was utterly devoured by his scrutinizing wrath. Well she got a nice pretty dress and I'm sure that will make her happy for tonight. It's one day at a time after all.

What you said about the BPD not being able to express shame, empathy or remorse is so interesting to me. Is that because that would shatter EVERYTHING and hence they would then totally self-destruct? I read that their brains fire differently and that certain areas remain inactive that are typically active in normal people, hence how they respond to emotions and to what they are perceiving.  It is fascinating but as I read about it I feel what I felt with my ex which was a sense of helplessness. Like nothing I did or could do would alter or change anything.

I felt utterly helpless and just had to witness the train wreck coming my way without being able to change a thing.

CryingWings and Hurt llama--I literally woke up this morning with your above responses about Brutal Honesty and Not Lying on my mind. This struck me too as I feel my exBPDgf in many ways was also very truthful. I've witnessed her actually being very truthful and compassionate or not in many situations--but here's the deal; i truly feel most of this is an illusion. I'd like to try and shift your awareness for a moment, let's look at things in a different light.

Brutal Honesty is often not (honest); Emotional Violence is what your experiencing. There's rarely Honesty in Brutality. Let's refocus the lens and instead of calling it Brutal Honesty (which would be TRUE yet Painful), and instead call it Emotional Violence, which is PAINFUL, because it uses Painful Truths... .   masked in a web of LIES. See the difference? The reason why EV hurts so much is b/c there's a hefty amount of Truth in it, but it's the manipulative LIE that is the dagger driving the puny amount of truth into our soul.

The TRUTH is the TRUTH, it can hurt, a lot, but the TRUTH always heals eventually. But, LIES? LIES hurt, but unlike TRUTH Lies NEVER Heal!

Hurt llama, I'd like to use a story of yours as an example. And, I hope you are ok with this; but this is my analyses that came to me this morning as a waking dream: You told a story about finding a used condom in the waste basket; then later bringing it up to her at dinner. Now looking back, you refer to her Brutal Honesty and the fact that she said "I'm sorry you had to see that." That is Emotional Violence my friend, not Brutal Honesty. These are just questions, and if I'm way off base then my apologies, but just my thoughts. Let's look at this through another lens--most women just don't make these kinds of mistakes; kidding me? "forgetting" about a condom in a trash can? knowing that she was leaving you at her home all day? i swear us guys are the only breed dumb enough to leave used condoms around by accident. i doubt this was a mistake. i bet on some level, conscious or no, she wanted to put you in your friggin place. You may call it Brutal Honesty b/c at dinner she told you what you thought was the Truth, but that truth hurt. But, could it be that the words "I'm sorry that you had to see that" meant exactly the opposite? Oh yeah, it's True the condom was there, and oh boy we give her so much credit for being "honest" and not "lying" about being with another guy, right? This is the woman you've repeatedly said is incapable of caring about your feelings at all--think she really was "sorry you had to see that"? Or do you think she felt safer, felt better, because this "accident" kept you under her thumb? The beauty of it being, you get emotionally crushed, at the same time congratulating her for her "honesty".

Once I had NC for several months I started seeing manipulations and "truths" through a different lens. It's literally scary. They say BPD occurs because of trauma that happens during childhood, so your ex prolly has at least 2? 3? DECADES of masterful manipulation skills at her disposal. For me it took seeing some similar memories I had through this different lens (EV instead of BH), and then i was like "ooh isht!". Straight up Lies are weak sauce. It's harsh Truth wrapped in lies that devastate. Am I way off base with my analyses? Go through other memories with this lens and let me know your thoughts... .  

(p.s. i should note that this "lens" get's clearer i believe with more NC)

[Hurt llama]

It was the first time I was coming back to see her after a couple of years before ending the engagement... . it was push pull bigtime over that period... .   canceling my last plans to come that year on my birthday via a voicemail message.

Her honestly is just interesting... .   I don't think it's admirable as honesty would be considered in a normal person. No, you got it exactly right.

But you are giving her too much credit with her honesty... .   it's not as complicated as that... . it's more of a childish way of being honest to hurt... . it's not powerful... . it's pathetic.

When she picked me up at the airport she was chilly... .   and I booked a hotel room as i didn't feel it was a good idea to stay with her... . and yet she drove directly to her apartment and I think we were in bed within a few minutes (meanwhile unbeknownst to me there was a used condom in the trash next to the bed, left by a 'friend'... . )

When we had sex again on NYE and she had a wildly powerful orgasm that was when I commented... . "wow, when was the last time that happened?" I wasn't trying to start a fight... . it was a funny comment... . but she started yelling at me (she almost never yells."WHO OR WHEN I HAVE SEX IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS". Which meant she was sexually active recently.

In other words she was dying to tell me... . and it is not a coincidence there was a used condom in the garbage... . who does that? omg... . I feel sick thinking about this... . She is so sick... .   and she is as resolute as I am in her position... . she honestly believes that there was no agreement prior to me coming there... .   and in 'fairness' to her mentally ill self... . I can see how she sees it that way... .   as 'truth' to her about past events is mostly influenced by her current state of mind. Truth is flexible.

To be 'fair' or to be as objective as possible... .   My ex is honest with me and direct and yes some of it is twisted in that it doesn't follow 'normal' social conventions of appropriate or respect for boundaries... . But I much prefer that to dealing with a liar... .

Thank you for thinking about this and sharing it with me... .   I have more to post as she is texting me all sorts of stuff pulling me in and at the same time making hard to understand references to her exbf and how he is clear it is over... . We texted 10x about this and I have no idea what she was really saying... .   if he called her and said it was over or she called him... . it was so confusing it's not even worth any more mental energy thinking about it.

She's acting very odd but it's par for the course... .   she's not an evil mean thing... . she's almost a helpless child but... .   it's also like a child with a loaded gun... .   she can really hurt me... .

[Hurt llama]

i dont know why this popped into my head but I just remembered my exBPD has no sense of 'irony'' zero... .   no appreciation of ironic coincidence... .   hard to explain but it was something i took notice of early on... . It bugged me... .  

It felt like some extreme detachement but to each their own of course but a lack of irony? what a thing to notice... . not sure why it came to mind right now... .

[Surrender]

Brutal Honesty is often not (honest); Emotional Violence is what your experiencing. There's rarely Honesty in Brutality.

Let's refocus the lens and instead of calling it Brutal Honesty (which would be TRUE yet Painful), and instead call it Emotional Violence, which is PAINFUL, because it uses Painful Truths... .   masked in a web of LIES. See the difference? The reason why EV hurts so much is b/c there's a hefty amount of Truth in it, but it's the manipulative LIE that is the dagger driving the puny amount of truth into our soul.

The TRUTH is the TRUTH, it can hurt, a lot, but the TRUTH always heals eventually. But, LIES? LIES hurt, but unlike TRUTH Lies NEVER Heal!

The beauty of it being, you get emotionally crushed, at the same time congratulating her for her "honesty".

It's harsh Truth wrapped in lies that devastate. Am I way off base with my analyses? Go through other memories with this lens and let me know your thoughts... .  

(p.s. i should note that this "lens" get's clearer i believe with more NC)

WOW you blew my mind Goldylamont because this is the thing I kept processing over and over again. It never felt right, his brutal cruel honesty. It always felt instead like a cruel attack. He justified himself and his punitive behaviors by always holding that 'truth flag' and felt that no matter how mean, cruel or verbally abusive he was sounding he felt because he was speaking truth that it was justified so his behavior was exempt. In effect by utilizing truth he gave himself permission under that banner to not take responsibility for his abuse and brutality. This also vindicated his belief that I was always in the wrong and he was coming from the correct version of things.

This bothered me to no end because somehow I could see or feel a very dangerous manipulation using some truth and distorting it all. Reading what you wrote hit the nail on the head, the nail that I was searching for to make sense of what I was seeing, feeling and detecting. A dangerous game indeed because in all his honest truths he said things to me that I can't ever forget or forgive him for. He altered everything forever by going that far and words are far more powerful and destructive than being slapped.

I am beginning to see what you are referring to by the lies being masked in the truth. I'm sitting here gobsmacked because you just confirmed and explained the very prickly thing that I have been trying to zero in on. My exes version of exhaling the fire of his truth on a person was more like submitting to being skinned alive or repeatedly stabbed by a sword. It didn't feel like the truth because it is like you said, there was no healing in it. It only made me feel utterly attacked and gave me wounds that never healed. These just added up and there wasn't anything positive that came from it even though in his mind he was teaching me a lesson that I deserved or something in his exaggerated ill mind.

In honesty, his 'truth' always felt like a brutal attack and just plain mean. He had zero consciousness of people's feelings, which is what Hurt llama was saying how often they lack empathy or remorse. For my ex he didn't care that he was destroying you with 'his version' of truth, he didn't care that he was cutting you into pieces. The more cruel he could explain his 'Truth' the better he felt. It was all anger and hatred coming out of him when that happened.

A huge thanks... .   I'll be processing this for a while and please share more.  

[goldylamont]

CryingWings, i can't express how happy i am that this helped. i see myself reflected in your words and thoughts in the response, so, i'm learning from you too 

Here's the deal--here's what i had to do and I'd like for all of us to try and do this (Hurt llama, you especially bro!). Try to take a step back away from the BPD  Said like a cop "Sir/Ma'am, please take a step back from the BPD, there's nothing to see hear." Step back = Zoom out = Forget for a minute everything about the BPD and look at the situation through a new lens, zoomed out from BPD and also from your surrounding emotions.

Now, without thinking of WHY/HOW a person with BPD would act like this, let's just acknowledge the act DID in fact happen. We don't care why, we just know it did, repeatedly.

Last step! Now, how did YOU feel in this situation? Did you experience emotional violence (EV), sometimes so powerful it affected you physically (nervous shaking, butterflies in stomach, etc.)? How did YOU feel? How did YOU feel?

^^That's it. How YOU felt at the moment is YOUR TRUTH. Now that we know the Truth that our trusty bodies have informed us of, ACCEPT this gift of Insight!

Ask ourselves, how often does EV occur to you "by mistake"?

In my opinion, a synonym for a person with BPD is MASTER MANIPULATOR. Why? They have been practicing the art of EV for DECADES usually by the time we meet them. Out of self protection/preservation? Maybe. Because of childhood trauma? Perhaps. But, it's important to remove your focus Off of the reasons and shift your awareness to the reality of what they are Doing. What is their behavior? What did they actually do?

Look at their Actions, never their Words

Drop your thoughts, then remember how You felt, then Accept this gift as your Truth

The following two steps above will show you the situation in a new light.

Hurt llama, I can attest, as you have that there were so many times that my exBPDgf was really honest with me. In many ways she had so much integrity--I would have never been with somebody that long unless they did have true integrity and honesty. -- BUT, I've learned I had to trust My Truth, My Body whilst only accepting her Actions & Behavior as Truth.

There were plenty of amazing times when my ex's Actions were beautiful, as well as her words. And, there were plenty of times when my ex's Actions were horribly sickening, while her words were still "true".

Hurt llama I'd like for you to consider the disgust you felt during these times of EV as the TRUTH. Whether it was done out of girlish flippance or practiced malice, does it matter?

I got some more personal stories i'd love to share but need to get back to work, LOL, but let me know if you want to hear it's helping me to use examples so i can see from 3rd person perspective... .  

[Hurt llama]

Hurt llama I'd like for you to consider the disgust you felt during these times of EV as the TRUTH. Whether it was done out of girlish flippance or practiced malice, does it matter?

Preferring her deadpan ability to tell the 'truth' over her someone who lies is like choosing the electric chair vs. firing squad.

It doesn't really matter.

I guess for me, it does help to know that i was not with Satan (as I affectionately refer to sometimes (not to her)) and that she is a decent but just damaged and hurt child akin to a rescue pet that was abandoned and abused... .   some respond well to their new owners and some just can never adjust.

Funny how writing is triggering random memories and thoughts... .   one of her largest attractions to me were my 'integrity'. She referred to it constantly. Reasons why clearly I provided her with safety and oddly it just occurred to me that her biggest complaint that i was always leaving her was also a foundation of true safety because I would not leave... .   Only until she blew up my world did I leave and even then the door never closed.

[goldylamont]

i'd love to hear some stories if you feel like telling, i will add some stories of my own too, it's just that i'm on the run now but i'll add some soon.

i think it's good that you can look at this person not as Satan   but i think the point i was trying to make Hurt llama is that, well, isn't it possible that a BPD 'truth' and a liars lie are in essence the same thing? i won't refer to it again cause i want to share some stuff too and i don't want to overstep and get all in your bizness   but a question i have is, where is the truth in the event with the condom/dinner. was it in her words "I'm sorry you had to see that"? Or was it in her Actions, which seem to be that it was done on purpose, just to hurt you? and if the words don't line up with the actions, then isn't this the same as a lie?

[Hurt llama]

i'd love to hear some stories if you feel like telling, i will add some stories of my own too, it's just that i'm on the run now but i'll add some soon.

i think it's good that you can look at this person not as Satan   but i think the point i was trying to make Hurt llama is that, well, isn't it possible that a BPD 'truth' and a liars lie are in essence the same thing? i won't refer to it again cause i want to share some stuff too and i don't want to overstep and get all in your bizness   but a question i have is, where is the truth in the event with the condom/dinner. was it in her words "I'm sorry you had to see that"? Or was it in her Actions, which seem to be that it was done on purpose, just to hurt you? and if the words don't line up with the actions, then isn't this the same as a lie?

Well, it's a good philosophical question if distortions or using the present state of mind to determine part of how you might view the past. I think we all can do this to some extent... .   and many of what we talk about in BPD relationships exists in all relationships to a lesser degree.

To be specific regarding the condom incident... .   (ugh)... .   We were close last October... . I sent her a gift and then found out later that month that i needed some serious open heart surgery... . I was feeling very vulnerable and said to her that I didnt expect her to not date and I went on and on... . i was extremely distraught... .   I didn't realize that while I thought we had moved past that and we were on the same page but clearly she was either in the process of ending a relationship or had someone around... . I really don't know. But hearing those words from me, was not something she was able to come back from... .

She of course stayed in touch but was definitely acting differently as obvious in retrospect she was in some sort of relationship... .  

I will always try to be as objective as possible in my posts here and please don't confuse that with making her out to be better than she is.

It was extremely difficult for her to have me come back into her life and it was really really hard for me to go there... . I felt like I was a cat trying to jump in the water.

We were back and forth on if I should go there or not... . We both were having huge trouble with it... .   tremendous anxiety... .

I finally got on the plane and went and the rest is history.

Considering how difficult sex can be to her or loaded is a better word... . It's complicated with her to say the least... . she is very sexual but she can easily bolt if she feels pressure or expectations... .   So the fact she was able to have this guy in her bed a day or two or who knows when before me was stunning to say the very least... .   She explained that he was an ex and yes she said it... .   'She felt sorry for him"

Was it unintentional that she had sex with someone so close to me... . No. it's a theme... . a theme that makes me so sick that this is actually hard to type.

She did the same thing a few weeks ago and it was the impetus to join this site.

She even gets all high and mighty about it and speaks down to me about how 'some people are not as serious as you are about sex and there are different ways to have a relationship"

This is so maddening it;s almost unimaginable she would say this! I am the least judgmental person about sex and of course this was just some sort of diversion or another crazy tactic that she uses to put it all on me... .

The 'truth' in her actions, is that she never yielded in her defense of her actions and that in her mind we were clearly not in a relationship, therefore I had no right to judge her at all... . She made it clear that if we were in a relationship it never would have happened... . And this is true.

Look, I can't view this story any other way than in judging her as a sick woman. A woman who has used sex as a potent weapon. In her mind she did nothing wrong.

==

Here's where it is now... . I as going to make a new thread about it but it's a touchy thing and I almost don't want to share it but I am committed to being honest and making an account of what I am doing.

She was texting me today and suddenly disappeared. It threw me into pretty extreme anxiety... . it was terrible... . I started texting and getting mad... .   and finally when she texted me back she reminded me she doesn't get imessages on her phone and that she was in a FIVE hour group therapy session.

The point of all this is that I see how vulnerable I am... .   and how I have given her so much power, more power than anyone should have... .   i had to ask myself a few questions.  Here they are:

What if she had been on a date? What if she told me she had been on a date? How would I feel? How would I react? WHat would it do to me?

I mean I broke up with her... . she is free and clear... . I have a date tomorrow (ugh not in the mood)... .  

I realize that if she told me she was dating or was with an ex or out with friends at a bar... .   I would feel distraught to say the least.

I am seeing so clearly how dangerous this is to me. It's not about her really anymore.

SO when she started texting she said she has a beautiful new dress and mentioned it because it was her way of telling me that she is going to be back here in 2-3 weeks and would love to wear it for me.

I replied... .   "WHy do you keep breaking up with me" (I am such a wiseass )

She said she has accepted we will be lifelong special friends and she has accepted we will never be married. Ever.

I replied: "You didn't have to throw the 'ever' in there." and she said "I said it for my own benefit, bro" (she says this to annoy me and it works)

I replied, ":)o we have friends with benefits? bro"

And have not received an answer.

Don't hold back in anything you want to ask or say... . No one can be harder on me than myself... .

I don't mind the questions and it, if anything helps me.

[Hurt llama]

The conundrum.What do I want from her?

I'll say it with the realization it's obviously never going to happen. "Ever'.

I want her to admit her sickness... . her sick way of operating... . I want her to feel bad... . I want her to know it's ok to feel badly... . it's ok to do things we might regret or know are wrong... . I certainly have done my share of crazy stuff.

[Hurt llama]

WHen I got home from my trip to see my ex... .   I almost immediately hooked up with a really good looking British girl... . I met her in a bar... . she was really drunk and I walked her home... . she invited me up but she was wasted and I took her to her place and the doorman had to help her to her apartment... .

The short story is that by experiencing the Condom Incident, I was cured in a way I never was since I met my ex BPD.

[Surrender]

CryingWings, i can't express how happy i am that this helped. i see myself reflected in your words and thoughts in the response, so, i'm learning from you too 

Here's the deal--here's what i had to do and I'd like for all of us to try and do this (Hurt llama, you especially bro!). Try to take a step back away from the BPD  Said like a cop "Sir/Ma'am, please take a step back from the BPD, there's nothing to see hear." Step back = Zoom out = Forget for a minute everything about the BPD and look at the situation through a new lens, zoomed out from BPD and also from your surrounding emotions.

Now, without thinking of WHY/HOW a person with BPD would act like this, let's just acknowledge the act DID in fact happen. We don't care why, we just know it did, repeatedly.

Last step! Now, how did YOU feel in this situation? Did you experience emotional violence (EV), sometimes so powerful it affected you physically (nervous shaking, butterflies in stomach, etc.)? How did YOU feel? How did YOU feel?

^^That's it. How YOU felt at the moment is YOUR TRUTH. Now that we know the Truth that our trusty bodies have informed us of, ACCEPT this gift of Insight!

Ask ourselves, how often does EV occur to you "by mistake"?

In my opinion, a synonym for a person with BPD is MASTER MANIPULATOR. Why? They have been practicing the art of EV for DECADES usually by the time we meet them. Out of self protection/preservation? Maybe. Because of childhood trauma? Perhaps. But, it's important to remove your focus Off of the reasons and shift your awareness to the reality of what they are Doing. What is their behavior? What did they actually do?

Look at their Actions, never their Words

Drop your thoughts, then remember how You felt, then Accept this gift as your Truth

The following two steps above will show you the situation in a new light.

Hurt llama, I can attest, as you have that there were so many times that my exBPDgf was really honest with me. In many ways she had so much integrity--I would have never been with somebody that long unless they did have true integrity and honesty. -- BUT, I've learned I had to trust My Truth, My Body whilst only accepting her Actions & Behavior as Truth.

There were plenty of amazing times when my ex's Actions were beautiful, as well as her words. And, there were plenty of times when my ex's Actions were horribly sickening, while her words were still "true".

Hurt llama I'd like for you to consider the disgust you felt during these times of EV as the TRUTH. Whether it was done out of girlish flippance or practiced malice, does it matter?

I got some more personal stories i'd love to share but need to get back to work, LOL, but let me know if you want to hear it's helping me to use examples so i can see from 3rd person perspective... .  

Goldylamont your brilliant. Would love to hear more because it's helping me a lot. Co-incidentally or not I have been doing that experiment for the past few days. I find it interesting that you have written about it because you have again confirmed what I was mentally breaking down.

[Hurt llama]

I can't keep going like this and while I have a miserable record of breaking it off... . I have to at the very least greatly reduce the contact and the anxiety from expecting contact from her.

I could not just stop and disappear... .   that's not possible for me or good in anyway... . We are connected vaguely in some past business and ugh she owes me money... . but she's always paid it back... . I have to get out before she drops the bomb that she is with someone else and I can't fault her for it as it's just a matter of time for both of us... . I thought I was ready to date... . but obviously not.

Here's what i sent:

======

Hope you are having a good day today…

I need to focus on my life and work as you know and have seen and step back from sharing or over sharing details of each others lives.

In order for me and you to heal better in a healthier way, I think it's best to greatly reduce the contact that we have between us.

I hope things go well for you with X and as I have said, I know you will always land on your feet and will find your way.

I think it's great you are trying new things with therapy even if certain parts of it might not work for you.

There is much hurt and pain that I/We never seemed to have recovered from. We continue being open to each other and in that we continue to be stuck in a pattern that keeps the pain going…or at least it does for me.

I know you will repay me the loan as soon as you can, even if I am not part of your day to day life.

We always say we wish the other well and we both mean it. I am proud of most of what we have been for each other and my life is better having had you a part of it.

I have great respect for your strength, resolve and ability.

====

[Surrender]

Hurt llama that was a great letter and a huge step towards your personal emancipation. It was very clear, truthful and compassionate.

[sunrising]

But, could it be that the words "I'm sorry that you had to see that" meant exactly the opposite? Oh yeah, it's True the condom was there, and oh boy we give her so much credit for being "honest" and not "lying" about being with another guy, right? This is the woman you've repeatedly said is incapable of caring about your feelings at all--think she really was "sorry you had to see that"? Or do you think she felt safer, felt better, because this "accident" kept you under her thumb? The beauty of it being, you get emotionally crushed, at the same time congratulating her for her "honesty".

I would like to compliment Goldy on what I also see as a brilliant analysis.  I went through very similar things with my ex.  She cheated on me and called me 2 days later to tell me.  At the time, I felt like commending her for her honesty, because it was in fact brutal.  This was long before I knew anything about BPD and I took her back; in large part because she was "honest" and seemingly apologetic.  I can easily look back on her "honesty" now and see how it was all about her and not me.  She either needed to purge in order to try to rid herself of her guilt and shame, she was trying to test/ control me, or both.  And I'm not making this analysis through a "BPD lens"... .   I just know her. 

There was a more recent example of this same type of "brutal honesty".  After nearly 2 months of NC, I started talking with my ex and allowed myself to be involved in a recycle attempt.  Completely unsolicited and literally out of the blue, my ex shared with me, "I tried having sex with someone else after we broke up to make myself feel better, but it didn't work".  I was shocked she shared this and said nothing for a good 30 seconds.   Finally, I said, "Why would you tell me that?'.  She replied, "Things just fly out of my mouth".   B.S... .      She was dying to tell me that for reasons I can probably guess:  1) She wanted to gauge my reaction 2) She wanted me to offer the same type of info to her 3) She wanted to feel better about herself for "being honest"... .   or some combination of those general motivations.     There's no chance she felt this information would be useful or good for me to hear.

My ex prided herself on "telling everything" and expected the same from me.  It's easy to get caught up in the type of boundary-free behavior under the guise of "total honesty".  I know I did.  There are things we shouldn't tell others for many reasons.  One of those is respect for the other person's feelings.  A good reason for healthy boundaries... .     "Total/ brutal honesty", as Goldy has pointed out, is often a result of purely selfish motivations. 

sunrising

[Surrender]

My ex prided herself on "telling everything" and expected the same from me.  It's easy to get caught up in the type of boundary-free behavior under the guise of "total honesty".  I know I did.  There are things we shouldn't tell others for many reasons.  One of those is respect for the other person's feelings.  A good reason for healthy boundaries... .    "Total/ brutal honesty", as Goldy has pointed out, is often a result of purely selfish motivations.

sunrising

Perfectly said, this boundary free sharing under the guise of honesty was in fact a killer for me. I didn't realize this at the beginning but only after he started using EVERYTHING I ever told him against me when he became emotionally dysregulated and would trigger a series of episodic rages, and yes all under the guise of brutal honesty. Goldylamont gave some incredible gold nuggets that truly just lit up the entire hidden ulterior motives.

It looks more like a tool/weapon he used rather than actual sharing. When I look back now I see so many lies wrapped up in this 'brutal truth' which is emotional violence and distorted manipulations.

The whole 'respect for the other person's feelings' is also a huge gem here as you stated. In my experience he didn't know what that was because he thought he had a right to know everything but what is more disturbing was that he set me up by making me feel like I could trust him when in fact he was collecting the data in order to 'destroy me'.

Well said Sunrising.  

[Hurt llama]

Thank you CW. I was first going to post it here for critique but I couldn't wait and in a rare display of patience, I did not send the first draft and stopped, took a breath and re read what I wrote... . And I removed all the same old references to past hurt and disappointments as it wouldn't help either of us to go back into it.

I want to come back and address something Goldy raised and that I responded to. I will yet again, preface that in my specific situation/relationship I do clearly see my own manipulations of her, over and over and over. That I have used this 'brutal truth' MYSELF as a weapon... . Not intentionally but she could say she didn't intentionally do anything wrong to hurt me either (other than each of us going to war long ago and unleashing WOMD (weapons of mass destruction).

I see that I am easily as 'guilty' as she is in the 'push pull' actually I believe more than she. I have sent mixed messages and her perception that I 'always breaking up with her' is actually more correct than I have admitted... . Much more... .

By being who she simply is and the dysfunction in her life that started from a horrendous childhood, she has survived as she felt she had to. I love this woman completely and respect her, warts and all.

Did she do things to me that are actually inconceivable to me? Oh yeah... . Obviously. I played my part as she played hers.

Everything i said in the letter I believe from my heart. I do respect her, even if I see 'crazy' behavior. But she is not the promiscuous crazy slut I fear and thought at times. Not even close. She chose good partners for the most part, Serious and good men. And not a crazy number of partners either.

And clearly it's not about 'numbers' or any of that. And was she a hurtful impossible woman? Um, yeah... . Maybe I should have listened closer to the time she said to me, straight at me... .   "I have always been The Impossible Girlfriend".

Was she being 'brutally honest"? To 'do' something to me. Who knows? I doubt she does.

Anyway, the purpose of this letter at the very least, is to 'reset' myself. Funny how she asked me for a 'reset'.

But to 'reset' and take the crazy attention and importance off of waiting for a text message, a phone call or an email and to take CONTROL back... .   That she IS free to be free... . I set her free after all... . and what's good for the goose is good for the gander and I can't have it both ways... .   And I made the decision that I can't have it with her as it was.

It's a big mess. I am seeing how the dynamics of this relationship, forgetting her BPD for a moment, were such that it was impossible to work and unfortunately, I see my role as being easily 50%.

And not that does not 'exonerate' her in the least.

Lastly, even if I wanted it to work, it would require me to start it is over for the reasons I said, after trying way to hard and sending mixed messages constantly.

I needed and need in ALL relationships to be firm about my boundary (not even about being right) and be the man I used to be.

I don't expect her to 'change' even thought maybe she might a bit. But I do recognise I was doing neither of us a favor of saying one thing and doing another. Over and over and over.

I feel more in control now. My date for tonight rescheduled (thank god) for tomorrow night.

I dont' have grand illusions that with one email to my ex, I will magically be ok and LC with no problem... . Unfortunately... . all i can do or try to do is control myself... . and for the moment for the last few hours... . I have no desire to reach out (duh) to her... . and I hope and and sort of actually do feel that I will feel less of a need to connect.

Now the next and tough trick... . is to be able to control myself when I have a few drinks. I am avoiding that right now.

Thank you all for posting here.

[Hurt llama]

I like to break up my posts a bit and I do want to add what it was that lead me to write this email.

Yesterday she didn't respond to texts till she got home... . she didn't "do' anything to me and I was in this anxiety filled 'space' imagining ridiculous things she was doing... . It was truly absurd! I create this false insane view of her... . as if she is Satan and a crazy slut... .   She is just so not that person... . Not even slightly.

BUT that being said, why would she NOT want me in her life? I am always there for her, always available for 'coaching' for advice to chat... . to talk about healthy lifestyles (both of us are trying) diet exercize and all really cool stuff.Of course she wouldn't want that to stop... .   24/7/365 friend.

BUT as sure as I am sitting her and writing this... . without a question of a doubt, this woman will make it clear to me by changing the patterns of availability and in her way announce that she is with someone else... .   Now this doesn't by itself sound that bad or even dysfunctional but she did this BEFORE we met... . We had this online relationship early on and she disappeared and then said she could not be with more than one partner at a time.

What? And she went on to tell me about this much older man she had had sex with... .   and she couldnt be with me as we were.

That was the earthquake I ignored... .   But i remember keeping my center... . and controlling my breathing and carefully explaining that she didn't need to be so explicit with me, didn't need to tell me... . that it would have been fine to simply say it 100x different easy and socially acceptable ways... . but obviously this was my first glimpse into BPD.

And I can't... . I literally can't put myself in the bullseye again... .   And as said, she is no sweet angel saint as I usually do see her... .   she has a hurtful evil side that is a secret that she can't acknowledge... .   to her there is no dark side ... . yeah... .   everything is black and white except the gray area that she lives in.

Anyway,, yesterday I asked myself a question... .   What would i feel like, what would I do if she texted me something  like... . "There is no easy way to say this but I am back with Blah Blah" And in this case for this example I made Blah Blah to be the original guy she cheated with on me way back when... . and i realized how that event would feel like it would destroy me... . and sure it wouldn't but it would be a major setback and I cant afford anymore grieving.

I've come a long way... .   For all of my writing and experience I am happy to report that never is the pain even nearly as bad as it was in the past... .   The Condom Incident was a tremendous gift... .   It set me free in so many ways.

And since that time until just a couple of weeks ago, she chased me, I had sex with her... . I was in control and I never ever made believe it was anything more than friends with benefits... .   and I did amazingly well considering all this... .   It's only since I made the decision to try again that this crazy anxiety has come back to this level.

end of rant venting or confession!

[Hurt llama]

I thought I would share my ex BPD response to me letter. Here it is:

:-)


===

Did I expect more? I doubt she really read it... . and to her, it's the same old story... .

Well it frees me up to not expect to hear from her and to control myself not to reach out... . one day at a time.

[Hurt llama]

Every time i get a text, I dread and hope it's from her.

If she lived in my town, I know we would be together. And it would last 1-3 days before I got jealous or angry about her relationships with men and ex's or something from the past and it would end as it almost always does.

It's especially hard as I still have control here. I remind myself that I am not in shape to easily tolerate another... . "I am back with so and so or some other insanity"

SHe sent me a smile face as a response? 

It's more than what I was expecting actually. 

[goldylamont]

ok, i'm still reading through all the great new posts but i couldn't help but share this link before i forgot--please watch this and LAUGH! 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g3tQaqizh0

then read this, it's pretty cool analyses but i think we're doing just as well here:

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-second-noble-truth/201112/seinfeld-upper-hand-and-relationship-attachment-style


Having "The Hand" is a relationship is a normal power struggle, even in normal healthy relationships. but with a BPD the lengths they go to get or maintain power is so far beyond what most normal people would do or comprehend. and the other side of the token is that if you are the one with "The Hand" at the time you still get treated horribly, and they will do terrible things until they get control again   ok, now i'm gonna read the new posts

[goldylamont]

oh, HL since you shared your letter here is the last note i sent to my X. i hadn't heard from her for about 6-7 months, but heard from mutual friends that she was having trouble with her current bf. i'm pretty sure they broke up recently, so out of the blue she calls me and leaves a message. my phone was trippin so i didn't get the voicemail till a week later.

like you, she owes me some money, but i'm not really worried about getting it back at this point. here's what i wrote:

hi X,

so, i got you're message just yesterday, my silly old iphone is on it's last legs and i missed a lot of calls early last week amongst it loosing battery power and not being able to connect. so i just got like 6 voicemails i had missed. i really appreciate the call. also it sounds like you are making a lot of positive changes with a new job and a new home? good stuff. so, i don't want you to worry about the money anymore. all that i wanted to know was that you cared about it and were trying your best. i don't know if i mentioned it before but it meant so much to me that you gave me those two checks over the summer even though i knew you were still in transition. this made me feel appreciated, and i realize is all that i really needed. so thank you for that and don't worry about the rest ok?

and the drill! omg i totally forgot about that drill, ! obviously this speaks to how little handy work i've been doing the past few months. please don't worry about it, i'm sure you're getting more use out of it than me anyways. stay crafty! i kinda wanted to get a new one anyways at some point so this is a good excuse for me  good luck on the new job and the new place. i hope they provide for you all that you are deserving of.

take care,

-me

so, i wrote this letter for several reasons--one b/c i knew she was just contacting me b/c she's fresh out of a relationship and could care less if she wrecks the one i'm in now (whole nother story about that). everything i say above is true, but what i was doing was removing any reason she would have to contact me. don't worry about the money. don't worry about the drill. it's not that i disliked hearing from her, on the contrary, just hearing the voicemail and her being nice to me was such a relief... .   but then i have to watch myself, and i realize that i really wanted to keep her as a friend, but that i probably shouldn't. i may entertain the idea way later in the future but no way we could even be friends as long as i'm with my current gf--there was an episode of what i'll call a "fake recycle" with ex several months ago, and so now i would NEVER put my current gf through this again (at the time me & the current gf had just started dating 2 months prior to the fake recycling, so not too serious yet, but still).

so, yeah, i understand how it is when there are still things in the r/s left linking you two together. if you can remove these then perhaps it would force her to contact you, just b/c she wanted to know how you were doing, without using things like money owed, etc. as an excuse. but, then again not sure if that makes it better, but for me i'm like, if you want to talk or say hi, just say that... .

[goldylamont]

... .   After nearly 2 months of NC, I started talking with my ex and allowed myself to be involved in a recycle attempt.  Completely unsolicited and literally out of the blue, my ex shared with me, "I tried having sex with someone else after we broke up to make myself feel better, but it didn't work".  I was shocked she shared this and said nothing for a good 30 seconds.   Finally, I said, "Why would you tell me that?'.  She replied, "Things just fly out of my mouth".   B.S... .      She was dying to tell me that for reasons I can probably guess:  1) She wanted to gauge my reaction 2) She wanted me to offer the same type of info to her 3) She wanted to feel better about herself for "being honest"... .   or some combination of those general motivations.     There's no chance she felt this information would be useful or good for me to hear... .

... .   "Total/ brutal honesty", as Goldy has pointed out, is often a result of purely selfish motivations. 

sunrising

sunrising so sorry you had to go through this. fortunately for me, much of the worst came after i broke up with ex but we still lived together. she immediately started dating a guy a few weeks after our 4 yr r/s ended, while we were still living together. 2 weeks after they met she changed her r/s status on FB to being in a r/s with the new guy, announcing it to 50 mutual friends who didn't even know we had broken up yet (and didn't say a word to me even though we lived together, i found out from a friend of mine later that day).

she sat in bed and read this astrology book about their two astrological signs and would giggle out loud while lying next to me in bed, giddy over her new r/s. she'd get up to make some tea or something and leave the book open to the page that talked about the amazing sexual compatibility of her sign and his sign. of course, this was done "on accident".

randomly one day after i got out of the shower she commented "it's really weird... .   ", I'm like "what's weird?". and she explains with a big friendliest of friends smile "it's just weird, exploring another man's body after being with the same person for so long. i dunno, it's just different." hey, thanks for telling me about that you friggin sociopath. i had already told her that it hurt me deeply that she was seeing someone else, but that i respected the fact that we were broken up and that i would respect her new r/s. but that wasn't enough, she wanted to taste blood.

the kicker was valentines day, i wrote her a note telling her how much our r/s meant to me, how much she meant to me even though it was over. i hid it in a book or something, she found it and cried and told me thank you. she had started dating the other guy about 2 weeks prior (this was just before announcing it to the world). anyways, later that day after being with him she comes home with the biggest smile and is like "Look what Sloppy got me!" I'm calling her "bf" at the time Sloppy to remain anonymous--"Look what Sloppy got me for valentines day!" it was some stupid hankerchief with a big heart on it with some saying like "you are my heart" or something like that. she was so happy showing it off, and i meant so much to her that she decided to fold it nicely and put it right on the bedside stand where it could be seen. in the bed we were both still sleeping in for a few more days before her silly ass finally started sleeping on the couch before moving out 2 weeks later.

brutal honesty? nay my friends! emotional violence 

p.s. so the great part of the story and confirmation for me of her BPD likelyness--while we lived together she would take every opportunity to tell me how great her new bf was. she said they were planning long nature walks and camping trips together, and that she felt so secure in this new relationship (of 2/3 weeks) because they both "trusted" each other. Trust, by the way, was the biggest issue we had in our r/s. She was just trying to throw this in my face. All of this was said with a smile, because, we were friends, right? Whatever. So, anyways this perfect guy and perfect r/s ended less than 4 months later with him texting her crazy texts all night calling her every name for whore under the sun... .   she said she was a little scared of him. she wanted everyone to feel sorry for her. i felt sorry for Sloppy's silly ass; what a sucker

[Hurt llama]

ok, i'm still reading through all the great new posts but i couldn't help but share this link before i forgot--please watch this and LAUGH! 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g3tQaqizh0

then read this, it's pretty cool analyses but i think we're doing just as well here:

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-second-noble-truth/201112/seinfeld-upper-hand-and-relationship-attachment-style


Having "The Hand" is a relationship is a normal power struggle, even in normal healthy relationships. but with a BPD the lengths they go to get or maintain power is so far beyond what most normal people would do or comprehend. and the other side of the token is that if you are the one with "The Hand" at the time you still get treated horribly, and they will do terrible things until they get control again   ok, now i'm gonna read the new posts

That's so great and true and depressing.

I was just daydreaming before I saw this post. I imagine that if she comes here in a couple of weeks she will reach out to me. Two weeks in this process feels like 2 years by the way (obviously)... . In this fantasy, I see her of course (as usual) we have a great 1-3 days tops... . and during this time or even better, when she gets back, she acts dodgy and goes whereabouts unknown with a noticeable change in text patterns... .   She returns and drops the text bomb... .   "It was great seeing you and there's no easy way to tell you this but... .   "

There could be slight variations to this but it's pre ordained... . and what I did in this fantasy daydream is imagining how it will feel when it happens.

If i do see her again and frankly the odds do favor this even though hopefully I can avoid another annoyance (I'm calling them 'annoyances' as opposed to the WPE (Worst Pain Ever) as they actually do get lesser each time.

Pardon the stupid question but do you think she is aware of a power struggle? Or is she just naturally better suited for this type of stuff? (That's my guess).

[Hurt llama]

so, i wrote this letter for several reasons--one b/c i knew she was just contacting me b/c she's fresh out of a relationship and could care less if she wrecks the one i'm in now (whole nother story about that). everything i say above is true, but what i was doing was removing any reason she would have to contact me. don't worry about the money. don't worry about the drill. it's not that i disliked hearing from her, on the contrary, just hearing the voicemail and her being nice to me was such a relief... .   but then i have to watch myself, and i realize that i really wanted to keep her as a friend, but that i probably shouldn't. i may entertain the idea way later in the future but no way we could even be friends as long as i'm with my current gf--there was an episode of what i'll call a "fake recycle" with ex several months ago, and so now i would NEVER put my current gf through this again (at the time me & the current gf had just started dating 2 months prior to the fake recycling, so not too serious yet, but still).

so, yeah, i understand how it is when there are still things in the r/s left linking you two together. if you can remove these then perhaps it would force her to contact you, just b/c she wanted to know how you were doing, without using things like money owed, etc. as an excuse. but, then again not sure if that makes it better, but for me i'm like, if you want to talk or say hi, just say that... .

I think I read that letter in another thread. Did you send it to manipulate her and make her feel bad in a way as you are being so nice? That's my style. As far as forgetting the money, I did that with my last gf as the pain of dealing with her paying me a measly amount each week was sheer torture. And I told her it was a gift was a good thing to do.But it was not such a small amount of money either... . It's freaking so annoying if I think about it!

My current ex also owes me substantial money... . like a good months worth of high expenses... . I can afford it but I really don't want to not get paid back even though yeah, if i could escape unscathed from here it would be worth it. The worst possible move ever would let her off the hook now. It would make things worse!

Oddly both of them and including my ex wife all are extremely honorable about stuff like this. It goes against all reason actually.

I hate talking about my ex with my sister, who is so steadfast and stubborn that I am a victim and that she will not see my ex as she is not supporting any relationship. Period. It really really bothered me when she said this as she's just so tough... . I get her point completely but she's brutal. I told my sister last night that I am realizing with my ex BPD, it's maybe not impossible to have a relationship (it might be possible at the cost of my testicles) but it is not possible to just be friends... .   and that's a new revelation.

As a guy, I fight with the idea that she is very attractive, extremely good to be with for short periods of time (sort of like a high priced escort (which was her fantasy when she was younger) and that I SHOULD be able to enjoy her, use her as much as I want in all ways and carry no emotional attachement more than the time we share in that period of time.

Even as I write this, it sounds like it makes perfect sense.

Here' the 'rub'. What I am started to do, is imagine scenarios and that and coldly assess the risks. In reality, the risks are bot with her really, they are with me. She doesn't start fights directly. It's always me. I know I could see her enjoy her and probably escape unscathed. The risks is crystal clear... .

If she comes here and has sex with me, the odds she is in a relationship and had a 'fight' with him to allow herself to justify being with me are great... . It's her MO, it's what she does. SHe doesn't 'cheat' in the traditional sense, she creates uncertainty with her current person or she makes a promise to herself that if she can get me, she will be with me. She means this for sure. But that's another story.

Regardless of what I do or what happens the same work needs to be done now. I need to detach. I need to stay busy and I need to get out and be productive during the day. I am in the worst rut in my life and have spent more time inside since January than any time in my life. It's not that bad as I am very busy working on some projects but with warm weather, hopefully things start to lift and get much better all around.

[Hurt llama]

These 'daydreams' are a helpful part of this process... .

And it's making me think back to the conversations we had the last two times I as with her here. I just had an actual 'lightbulb' moment 

That my experience of her is so absurdly simplistic it's incredible. I am seeing things in black and white (pardon the expression) or better said I am not at all paying attention.

She was not here in any way casually. The first time about 6 weeks ago, she was here for a job interview, floated the usual wish to be with me forever and assuring me that everything worked out 'right' and we can finally have the life we wanted from the beginning. She's totally right in that but her constant 'chatter' an almost internal 'dialogue' she was saying out loud was "He loves me. He really loves me" (over and over) and "I love you completely. Totally. (obvious in hindsight that that was what she wanted from me)

And when it ended poorly, as usual because of me and related to sex and of course a business contact she needed to see who happened to be an ex.

When she returned home, yup, yet another disappearance and reuniting with her bf and that exploded badly.

So when she returned, again... . it was acquisition mode for me.

There IS NOTHING CASUAL ABOUT HER AND SEX OR IN RELATIONSHIPS.

And I have to remember, that she can say anything and truly believe it as it's true when she said it (ugh) but truth is she will be with me again, have her backup plan in motion and try her hardest to sink her hooks into me yet again. All veiled in this new "Special Friend For Life" thing she came up with in the last texting we did.

[goldylamont]

There IS NOTHING CASUAL ABOUT HER AND SEX OR IN RELATIONSHIPS.

And I have to remember, that she can say anything and truly believe it as it's true when she said it (ugh) but truth is she will be with me again, have her backup plan in motion and try her hardest to sink her hooks into me yet again. All veiled in this new "Special Friend For Life" thing she came up with in the last texting we did.

excuse my curtness--she's gaslighting you masterfully like she's been doing to you and to her other bf and to many, many other relationships previous to you. and, what she most likely will to do any meaningful relationships after you.

please do not fault or come down upon yourself. see the thing is, being a normal person means feeling bad when you do bad things, caring and thinking about the other person's thoughts (empathy), taking responsibility for your own actions.

i don't think there's anything that i could say or your sister could say, or anyone for that matter. i believe time and your own inner strength will get to the bottom of this. (i sense a deep inner strength in you, and not only is it strong, but it's Funny, able to laugh at itself and not take things too seriously--this is Very good strength Hurt llama! You have a strong base to work from).

i see clues of your awareness peaking when you say things like that you're not making excuses for her... .   are you sure that's not a question your awareness is asking of you? are you asking whether you are making excuses? maybe not... .   maybe not yet

hmm, let me share with you my latest greatest fear; distilled down to the root: i will never be able not only to be in a relationship with my ex again, but it's pointless for me to even be a friend to this person, "ever" << to use the word of your exgf  i want to go back and delete that last sentence so bad. i do, but see, the truth here is in our greatest fears and this i feel is my journey to accept.

our conscious minds, in particular, our fragile and glorious egos, fight our bodies to the death to not have to face our true fears. Hurt llama, what are you MOST afraid of?

i think when you can state this as i stated above it can help define the course you'll need to take going forward. don't rush it. keep ruminating for a while if you need. i'm not so worried i'm glad you mentioned your sister as support and as i mentioned, you have an inner strength that attracts--this isn't some janky compliment by the way. the proof of your strength is in the fact that you've hooked the attention of several other great thinkers in this thread. likewise you can use this same power to bring into your life healthier alternatives. but give it time. this person was a big part of your life and will take a big part of your life to process and move beyond. and if the words "move beyond" in that sentence hit a scary note... . trust me i understand 

[goldylamont]

I think I read that letter in another thread. Did you send it to manipulate her and make her feel bad in a way as you are being so nice? That's my style.

My current ex also owes me substantial money... . like a good months worth of high expenses... . I can afford it but I really don't want to not get paid back even though yeah, if i could escape unscathed from here it would be worth it. The worst possible move ever would let her off the hook now. It would make things worse!

i used to play games with my ex but committed to not do this any more. no, i wasn't trying to play nice with this letter to manipulate her--not b/c i'm some Zen master, but because i KNOW it is a dumb dumb and painful choice to try to manipulate a Master Manipulator  hell, i've only been manipulating in relationships since being with her, like maybe 2 or 3 of the 4 yrs we were together i tried that game. she's got prolly over 2 decades, she'll beat me every time, . No, every word in that letter was true to me. the reason i was nice was personal, for me, i actually felt really happy about hearing from her, and felt good that she was being nice to me. everything i said in the letter was true and that's why i'm so proud of it. i don't care about the money or the drill. buuuuut, now i'm checking myself, it was nice to have that moment of happiness and to share a brief friendly conversation with her... .   but now i'm checking myself, and have found out that i actually wanted a friendship with her, and that's just a silly notion now. a friendship now is not so good. so, that's where i draw the line for myself and say, that was great, knowing she doesn't hate me and we can be friendly, but on another note, yo what the hell are you thinking? you don't actually want to be friends right? i'm very happy with the letter, i meant it and still do, but now making sure i don't take things too far.

now, you're situation is different--it sounds like more money and that you're not comfortable giving this up. that's totally understandable. so not sure what to say. other than, at some point, perhaps having her never call you again using the reason of $ she owes you would be worth more than the $ itself. perhaps a good question to ask yourself is this: could you tell her, in a nice way that you appreciate so much her paying you back, and that you prefer her to just send you a check or paypal it? with no other correspondence? how linked is her giving you the money back a link to staying in touch with her? you guys don't need to talk for her to pay you back, right? ... .   are these questions bringing any anxiety to you? if so, why?

[Hurt llama]

Very much appreciate you sharing your experiences and your perceptions and feelings about my 'situation'.

You are right in that there is no single thing anyone could have said (past tense) to me about my relationship way back when... . If I had found this forum or had a diagnosis of her, (even though I knew it all in a different way) it would have helped me tremendously and moved things forward much faster.

I've come to the forum, far along in the process. I've made the split and I have kept connection since we met but we do live far from each other and don't see each other than often.

There is no question, and little doubt, I will continue as I am and things are fundamentally shifting pretty fast. I see her much clearer and I see my own part extremely clearly.

It's petering out. It's losing steam... . The 'power' she had is greatly diminished. It's obvious. It's the same things over and over and over…with small variations.

She's been married for a very long time and during that marriage things were very different in her life. I believe that the birth of her daughter triggered her and was the beginning of her disassociating and in some ways 'waking up'... . IN good ways and in dysfunctional.

SHe doesn't have "many many relationships'  and the ones she has are not with losers or that extreme... . No, I'm the 'lucky one'... . And it matters really not at all anyway anymore.

My process is maddening to watch. I know that. I would have trouble hearing a friend go on and on like this (and I have). That's why it's great I found this place!

For myself, I was married for 17 years with a total of 20 years with my first wife. We had our problems and I finally decided that wasn't working after really trying everything I could do to make it work out. The ending of the marriage was like a death of sorts…absolutely brutal and the settlement was rough and 'unfair' and yet I accepted it, made money, made peace and my kids had two great homes less than a mile from each other.

I had a long relationship with a great woman that lasted about 4 years (still stay in touch), and I had lots of fun dating experiences before and after that... . I did really well.

When I met my BPD ex, it was a perfect storm. My kids were starting to get older, my business was very successful and I didn't work hard and I had free time, money and everything I really ever wanted... . What she offered just by 'stats' was a continuation of the 'happy' family, living a great life in the suburbs, a pretty and smart wife and all that comes with it. The 'as if' was fantastic. It was perfect…on paper... . She's 10 years younger…I wanted to have her family mixed in with mine. I really liked her kids…and on and on.

While there is no 'single' piece of advice or anything anyone can say to me that would change things (they are already greatly changed) it is the sum or grand total of the things I read, the thoughts that are shared to me and even by me, that is all seeping in and affecting change from within... . Change in perception, seeing her differently and what she says as compared to what she does.

While we all have faced and do face very similar situations, there are differences as well. Some on the board make the decision to learn ways and means to deal with their BPD partner, it makes perfect sense that I was willing to try that two weeks ago. There's nothing wrong with that at all. The "mistake' if it should be even called that is in over estimating my ability to handle certain things such as being with a partner who is incapable of really expressing very much empathy.

"i see clues of your awareness peaking when you say things like that you're not making excuses for her... .   are you sure that's not a question your awareness is asking of you? are you asking whether you are making excuses? maybe not... .   maybe not yet"

It's important to me in all relationships to see my part in them clearly. With any dysfunctional relationship where this is abuse it does get murky in how the so called 'victim' sees his or her abuser. My goal is to see it as clearly for what it is, without giving her all the power and responsibility for things not working out. Although it is my belief things will never work out for her with anybody. I have no doubt about this and she knows it too on most levels.

Not only have I been in and managed to end a long term marriage successfully and that's defined as not being ruined or jaded by the experience even though I was with a very difficult woman (first wife) who after the birth of my second child started really showing serious bi-polar 'tendencies'. She finally found the right combination of medications and now seems to be doing pretty well. But I am very proud I not only survived that but did so with dignity and pride. It was not easy. It was extremely difficult. That does add to the base of strength that you mentioned (and I really appreciated hearing)

When I broke up with my BPD there was a terrible horrible period where she hurt me and I hurt her back times 10. Not proud of that. I felt and do feel guilty at times.

I was her worst nightmare in many ways. Her fear of abandonment and shame? She moved all of her life thousands of miles away, sold most of her things, lost her job, and as a result of me ending it suddenly (a week or two before her kids moved in) was devastating to her, even though she was acting in such crazy ways, I felt I had no choice. She usually agrees with this decision and then slips back into anger about it, just as I do about certain things she has done to hurt me.

The theme of our problems is all around her steadfast, stoic refusal to budge on decisions to be 'friends' with ex's and how it effects my feeling of safety…notice I said feeling... . in other word, I would not ever tell her what to do or even want to... . What I needed on her last visit when she just said she is going to an important business function with this ex, was some sort of softness, empathy…Obvious stuff to most of us.

She can't do that. Her career is extremely important to her and it was an important event... . But she can't and won't see how close she could have been to doing what she needs to do by 'simply ' (of course it's not simple) in making me feel 'safe'.

She is on the high functioning level of BPD, even with her financial problems and the fact her daughter was almost lost in the process of moving to my home... . Her also BPD mother is pretty much raising her sweet BPD daughter.

I do admire her dedication, determination and drive to have a better life. She is not a crazy drunken slut, even if i feel that she is at times.

She emailed me a response to a second email I had written and she's detached and has a much bigger problem than me or men right now. She is broke and awaiting word on an incredible job she probably will get.

As for me, I am in process and moving it forward even if it looks like I might be vacillating back and forth…maybe I am but less less and less.

Just came back from the dog park with my dog... . Hung out with a really smart and cute woman I've become friends with ... . I have that date tonight at 8pm... . I am more and more productive in my work and come hell or hight water I will start going to the gym and get my life back with the warmer weather.

Of this I have no doubt. My ex was ten feet tall when I met her... . how she's about 3 feet tall and getting smaller all the time.

Very appreciate your words and the time spent in trying to follow this long continuing diatribe I am journaling here.

[Hurt llama]

now, you're situation is different--it sounds like more money and that you're not comfortable giving this up. that's totally understandable. so not sure what to say. other than, at some point, perhaps having her never call you again using the reason of $ she owes you would be worth more than the $ itself. perhaps a good question to ask yourself is this: could you tell her, in a nice way that you appreciate so much her paying you back, and that you prefer her to just send you a check or paypal it? with no other correspondence? how linked is her giving you the money back a link to staying in touch with her? you guys don't need to talk for her to pay you back, right? ... .   are these questions bringing any anxiety to you? if so, why?

One good thing is that there is a good track record in matters of money with her. She pays me back with an almost vengeance. SHe hates owing me money. And as I've said, she lives to work and loves it. It's her biggest problem and the fact she came to move in with me before we were to be married was that she didnt have a job. It's not even the money. She loves working and without it is really a mess (as opposed to her usual grounded normal self... . haha)

The money issue is a non issue other than how it can bring up anxiety and anger that is really not about money. This one is easy and if it come down to it, yes, I could and would walk away and in the scheme of things, it doesn't matter.

We never had a history of talking about it and she always pays it without being asked, even if I am not in communication very much.

My email to her and my plan, while not a perfect one at all... .   It's flawed... .   and it sucks really that I can't just throw the switch and be done with her, is already starting to work in 24 hours... .   I dont feel the pull the need to reach out today... .

The danger... .   is... .   if I go out and drink and feel nostalgic, I feel the tug... .   If I date and it's not good, I feel the tug, if I am intimate with anohter woman,, I feel the tug.

Awareness is the most important part... .   and from there... .   it's one day at a time.

I might slip, I keep saying it... .   I really might... . I almost assume I will. I know a couple of things though... .   Yes I might feel more pain and it's 'stupid' if I do slip... . But I will NEVER feel the pain I used to feel again with her... . She could sleep with my best friend and her power is really going going and soon to be gone.

Maybe by preparing for a slip I might avoid it. It's a matter of how much pain one need before making the decision it's enough.

You asked what my biggest fear is? It's that I never shut the door entirely... . That i will be vulnerable forever... . that I will get away for a week, a month, six months and I will reach out to her again... .   And it's almost always ME who reaches out and me who breaks up with her.

Not proud of any of it really.

But it's the best I can do now.

[Hurt llama]

Just got a text message from the woman who emailed me from an online dating site... .

==

Hi Llama, I am sorry but I need to cancel tonight. My ex and I talked and decided to give it another try. If anything changes I will let you know... .  

Me: I totally understand. I tried that 2 weeks ago with mine. It went really great. Lol. But I hope it works for you and I appreciate the directness.

Her: I hid my profile today so you will see that I am not bs'ing. I would like it to work out. I'm hoping for the best. I didn't reach out to many and if it doesn't work out you will be the first person I will text : >

Me:I think it's cool you told me this way. I didn't even think you would make that up and I respect it.

Her: I don't like playing games and didn't want to be disrespectful.

Me: I just finally gave in and tried with my ex fiancee so i understand. You are awesome to be honest. It's a tough situation for sure. I like how you handled it and i know relationships might end but rarely are they cut and dried and easy to end. I might go to the Mexican place you suggested tonight alone if that's not to weird?

Her: No, I think that's really funny.

Me: I've been wanting guacomole and beer since you mentioned it yesterday. Maybe I'll meet my soulmate there tonight. haha... . here's my website... . and I appreciate you emailing me in the first place. I go on fewer dates these days so please pass me on to a cute and cool friend!

=======

I'm greatly relieved and I wasn't joking with her... .   My plan is unchanged but she won't be there. I wasn't really ready and although this one is really good looking and all, I didn't think it was a match anyway. whew... .   all works out.

Bet she's not BPD!

[Surrender]

the thing is, being a normal person means feeling bad when you do bad things, caring and thinking about the other person's thoughts (empathy), taking responsibility for your own actions.

hmm, let me share with you my latest greatest fear; distilled down to the root: i will never be able not only to be in a relationship with my ex again, but it's pointless for me to even be a friend to this person, "ever" << to use the word of your exgf   i want to go back and delete that last sentence so bad. i do, but see, the truth here is in our greatest fears and this i feel is my journey to accept.

Goldylamont once again you have put it all succinctly. I love reading your logic and how you have in such an articulate way connected the dots. It is helping me greatly as is Hurt llama. For me it has been 3 weeks and 2 days with N/C cold turkey after he dumped me coldly and was brutally honest as to his NEW life that he was embarking on to replace me. The kind of honesty that made sure to inform me about his new found re-connections with his exes, parties, bab-b-q's , clubbing including that he was going to embark on sexual liaisons with his exes because life had to "go on" right and I'm just being honest and letting you know". He then ensured to tell me that this should however not interfere with us being best friends and family because I will always be his best friend in the entire world and I've always been family to him. He continued to tell me that it shouldn't make any difference if we can't be together in "that way" because we were first best friends and family to one another. Then he said "what is love anyways, jut an illusion, besides you have done too many things to give me reason to doubt you or trust you. You have given me every reason I need to know that this can't work because I know you would just hurt me. Maybe with your next boyfriend losing me will have taught you a lesson and you won't go around hugging other guys when you greet them. Maybe this will teach you a lesson". He said this to me in a very punitive manner. So again even while dumping me he had to punish me and make me feel like I was the sole cause.

(He was hugely jealous if I hugged or kissed guys when I greeted them hello. I did this with one of his old friends who was young and good looking and that was the straw that broke the camels back for my ex). We are both European decent and have been raised to greet this way with other Euros so it's nothing unusual.

He made sure to inform me that I would be horribly selfish if I wanted to end everything just because I couldn't "get over" the fact that we can't be together as a couple. That I would be abandoning HIM (if you can believe it) btw we were planning getting married (ugh the thought makes me ill   so there I was just 3 days prior planning my move to where he lives (a different country) setting the date etc and out of the blue 3 days later... .   The I'm Dumping You Call happens.

Somehow was supposed to feel guilty if I couldn't be his best friend and family but it sure was more than fine for him to dump me in such a cruel, inconsiderate and littered with betrayal as well as being led on the entire time. Strange thing is I had just returned from living with him for months and the call came in 12 days after I returned to my home only. The first two weeks I returned to my home he would call me crying and being a total mess missing me and feeling like in his words "half of him was missing".

So in the dump call he made sure to tell me that I would be selfish and that if I could abandon him like that then that would mean that I had zero love for him and that I was lying about everything. He was trying to black mail me here... .   but when I dissect this all it is utterly convoluted. He could take zero responsibility while at the same time continue to keep me as his best friend and family if I could just stay being his best friend but if I could not do this then it was all my fault. So the problem was ME all along again because not only could he not be with me because of "me" and all the reasons I gave him to doubt me but if I couldn't be his best friend than it was my fault because it would just confirm what he believed about me all along and how he couldn't trust me because I would hurt him and maybe even not really love him. Catch 22 here but either way I lose. Either way I'm the target and he is the machine gun.  

He then said to me in anger "so it's all or nothing with you then is it? Your not content to have what we had all along and forget the complicated bullsh&t of being in a relationship? You never loved me and your a liar". He said he would give me some time and check in somewhere down the road even though I told him to not bother. I said a strong good-bye. One of his last remarks was "I'll always make time for you on skype besides I know you will have to call me when you have some absolutely weird story that you just have to share. I mean who else can you share such things with but me Right?" Shortly after that dumping conversation  which was a total mind F&^%$k extraordinaire I deleted him from skype. This I knew he at least could see... .   and in a sense it was a subtle message to him and something he didn't think I would do I'm sure. In his mind he probably was banking that I would be desperate to keep him in any way I could.

So Hurt llama this is what I have surmised about their desire to keep us forever as their 'special friends for life' or what ever spin they call it.

Goldylamont please tell me if I have more or less a handle on this okay and extend on what I'm trying to say here. This is all new to me and I had a crash course in BPD that began the day he dumped me 3 weeks ago.

I surmise that I can NEVER be my exes friend, best friend or family because it is just a manipulation from his part. I can't speak for anyone else clearly but I'm sure we can all figure it out in our own cases. Not only is it a manipulation to not be ever accountable, responsible or even conscious of the things he has done, continued to do or perpetrated against me but at the same time it is keeping me as his objects so that he can continue to be 'fed' in some way. He has me there on the display shelf so to speak and can reap the rewards to getting what he needs at what ever point he is feeling really empty. By doing so he is continuing to keep me still hostage and a prisoner like he did in our relationship because I will continue falling for the same things I fell when we were together. He was controlling everything while I was quietly twisted up until I couldn't tell what was what anymore. He knows how to manipulate me and how to use me, he can play me like a violin so why wouldn't he want to keep me on that lovely shelf of his so that when he is bored with his latest exploits he can return for the next 'hit' that will give him his "FIX" making him "FEEL" at my expense. And even though we will just be best friends and oh so close as family I will see him destroying me in the same ways and I will have to go through disengaging and the loss all over again because the end will just be prolonged only I will be far more damaged and far more hurt. And he will stay the same. I however, will be bleeding to death and for what? For NOTHING.  

It isn't about being genuine best friends or having a genuine sense of having a bond that feels like family. It has no bearing in truth because he was never truly able to be that to me. How do I know that? Because of how he treated me in the relationship. Because of how he abused me over and over and over again. If he were genuinely my best friend and family that would have gutted him and it simply wouldn't not have been the central theme of our lives like it was.

So can I be his one and only dearest and closest best friend in the whole wide world with a connection that is more like family while he recklessly goes out into the world and exploits himself and other women? Would I be doing myself any favors by hanging on to what I dearly wanted to believe that at the very least we were best friends in the world and only had each other? Would my best friend ever do the things that he did to me? Can't I be content in at least having him in any way I am able to?

What exactly am I hanging onto here with this dream?

That is just it... .   it is my 'dream', my fantasy of what I wanted to believe but never was. What have I concluded in truth here? That I have to say good-bye forever because the only thing that is left are lies, distortions, toxicity and nothing but betrayed pain. There is Nothing Left in the end of it all... .   and I'm not even sure if there ever was because that too was that 'dream'. Illusions are mighty powerful because they are everything we want to believe with all our hearts. Ultimately it all boils down to a dream that simply never was on his part and in mine only in different ways. If we could really be friends then he would never have abused me like he did and we would have been able to have closure coming to a mutual understanding of the forces involved within the dynamic of our relationship that poised difficulties and dead ends. This could never happen because we could never discuss anything if it meant him taking responsibility. Every problem was directed at me and his response always was to punish me without ceasing, then be gentle and good to me only to follow that up with another onslaught attack in his rage and so on and so forth.

I thought long and hard and that is what I have concluded... .   in truth there is Nothing There and what is there is laden with pain, lies, deceit, distortions, manipulations, and usury. All the things that victims are made of. Do I think it would be any different if we "we best friends" and tried to maintain such a thing? Not a chance... .   it probably would even be worse in yet another strange and unknown way that I would have to find myself getting over and healing from.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one Goldylamont and Hurt llama. This sharing is really helping me big time.

[Hurt llama]

Well, I think I posted the realization that (in my case which is less extreme than yours unfortunately ) that I would have a better chance of being in a relationship with my ex than being her friend.

Your ex is extreme and what he says is so convoluted, complicated and delusional, I can't imagine you having any relationship with him ever again once you continue as you are of course.

For my own situation, my ex gets smaller and smaller each time I see her or think about her... .   the power is waning... . And of course she wants me to be her "Special Lifelong Friend"... .   why not? But while I know when this spilt sticks (and it will) that she will be like a couple of other ex's I have... . I NEVER see them. Ever. We stay in touch, checking in once and awhile but it's not more than that. In my example, it's just the way I am and ultimately she will just blend into my past. This constant contact that mostly I initiate is more of a problem than even  seeing her once in awhile... . It's a never ending connection and it's kept me content in a weird world that I am tired of living in. I blame this on myself btw.

I have trouble reading what your ex writes... . To me it reads like babble... .   ranting and emoting like a child... . All it does for me is to see that he is highly manipulative and I do see some of the similarities between what he says and what my ex says. It is actually a bit chilling to read what he says about family... .   It's her new mantra to me... . and I am not comfortable with it at all. It puts me on high alert. To me being considered family in their warped minds and specifically in my ex's mind means she is free to have her relationship(s) and expects me to maintain this family 'loyalty". Sounds like a great deal for her!

I see the complexity in your ex relationship... .   in that he is vulnerable, he does show he is weak and a mess. WIth mine... .   NEVER... .   zero... .   No weakness, little compassion and this weird detached way of just stating the same things over and over and over... .   "You are so romantic. How would I ever find another man like you?"

I don't know who posted or where but someone posted a letter from an ex (female) that gave me chills as my ex could have written it... . In fact, she left a message on my voicemail (very rare) in which she went on to tell me what a 'wonderful man I am'. She means it 100%. So what.

[babyducks]

/quote]

In honesty, his 'truth' always felt like a brutal attack and just plain mean. He had zero consciousness of people's feelings, which is what Hurt llama was saying how often they lack empathy or remorse. For my ex he didn't care that he was destroying you with 'his version' of truth, he didn't care that he was cutting you into pieces. The more cruel he could explain his 'Truth' the better he felt. It was all anger and hatred coming out of him when that happened.

Holy Smokes Crying Wings,  I think you and I were in the "same" relationship.  With my ex, if she felt it, it was "true" and if I didn't accept how it was expressed it was because I didn't understand her at all.  Her explaining her feelings almost always ended up in a vicious attack.  Leaving me dazed and confused wondering what the heck did I do wrong?

[Surrender]

Her explaining her feelings almost always ended up in a vicious attack.  Leaving me dazed and confused wondering what the heck did I do wrong?

Exactly babyducks, at first your dazed and confused. I remember not knowing what the heck just happened like as though something went bashing on my head from the sky. This shocked feeling continued because I continued to be left in shock each and every time. My brain scrambling to try and figure out what, when, who, where as though everything that kept happening never made any real sense besides the fact that somehow it was all my fault. I remember even the smallest of things were made into mountainous issues that seemed to have also included everything but the kitchen sink.

I don't think the 'shocked' feeling ever went away because almost every heated interaction was so heavy with convoluted distortions and his feelings seemed to be always so hyper-acute-senstive that I likened it to an albino not having any pigment to protect them from the sun therefore exposure to it is unbearable. That was what feelings were to him and that was why it was near impossible for my ex to have consistency or a rational balance.

It reminds of me of those people who are born with such sensitivity to light and noises that being exposed to both is agony to them and they have to stay in a very quiet and dark room until the episode passes. The hypersensitivity to light causes their eyes and brain a searing pain that is intolerable and noises hurt them and cause terrible migraines. My exes 'feelings' were like that from what I could perceive that is why the tiniest of things was always exaggerated to mean tons of other bad things that he connected to everything else.

Hurt llama's distortion field is well put because that is exactly what it is.

[Hurt llama]

Well, had a really good night out last night... .   I had to drag myself out of the house, when out to eat by myself and had a few drinks... . I started worrying that I might text my ex but that is less and less 'gratifying' in fact even though it's only two days... .   contact with her (we had a couple of short texts and emails following up on some things), leaves me feeling very uneasy and uncomfortable.

Met up with a really cool and very pretty new friend and neighbor... . it was her birthday and she was really dolled up and looked amazing... . she called me at the exact time as I got into the lobby of my building and off we went... . We were both happily intoxicated from being out on our own... .   and we had some laughs and an awesome time together... . we are going out tomorrow night and she's bringing another one of her girlfriends... .   this is damn fun... .   very happy about this.

My ex  texted me the job that she went on two interviews for that they won't have an answer for two more weeks but it looks very promising.

I used a few of her own words and copied and sent them back to her as my response... .   which was perfect.

In the past, I have always been there to lend her money... .   without much said, she would ask I would send... .   She just asked me a few days ago for another $500 for some bills and I sent it.

As i've posted in the past, I know she will pay me back but of course wish i didn't have this connection whatsoever... .   but I am not walking away from an amount equal to a high months of my own expenses.

The reason I am posting this here, is that I am starting to prepare and be ready if she asks me again... .   as she's broke... .   She might not ask me but she might... .

And here's what I think... .   At this point I think it's time to pull that plug... . not because of the money but to make it all more 'real'.

I am preparing what I will say and something like this is what I think I will (fewer words the better as I am learning)... . "I don't feel comfortable lending you any more money.It's of course not an issue of trust. I'm sorry"

How does that sound to you guys? I think about her all day but none of the thoughts are really good. I imagine her and I don't like what I imagine or see. I have always posted that I figure I will see her yet again... .   if she comes here for that job... .   and I wonder if i will be able to or if she will reach out to me. I think I have underestimated her pull towards me, even though she says it... . it's usually me pursuing her even if I dumped her... .   I just know... .   completely know that if I do see her again, she either has started with another man or will soon and it would make the most sense for it to be with the ex who she saw for business last time... .   The guy who she wanted to clarify that when I asked if she would be with again, said something like "Nothing is impossible". No it's not impossible baby, it's practically pre ordained.

The thing I am realizing more and more is that she never really yields a position or softens up. She's different than most of the BPD partners I read about here... . I'm not saying anything good really about her just really taking notice that she never really offers up any excuse or anything for her behaviour... . IN her mind, usually everything she does makes perfect sense and it's all normal for the most part... .   and it's ME who has the problem.

Times are a changin'

[Hurt llama]

I dont think I have maintained any real distance from her since before we met 6 years ago.

It was ALWAYS me off balance and reaching for her... .   Makes no sense as I am a very strong man. Or I was.

And obviously, as I back off in contact, she will reach towards me. It's human nature. I don't want to be cruel and I am a writer and tend to always 'explain' or communicate to her and it's of course in one ear and out the other... .

This is the email I responded to her text. I intentionally did not text it and emailed it instead.

It's a much edited version of the first one that had to many references to specifics that wouldn't help me in writing again.

This final version is better but still a bit to involved and angry but I am human and it's sent.

Thank you all for your words... .   This forum has been an important part of the process of sorting out what was really going on since before day one.

====

There was/is something that was missing for me  and I turned myself inside out and upside down to try to find a 'way' to make it work because I saw something in you and thought an investment past all the kicking and bull~ was worth it.

I learned that there was nothing I could do that would ever give me what I think anyone needs in a healthy relationship. Safety and a sensitivity... . We all can be wrong as I said when we first met. I experience you as almost never really admitting or seeing anything you ever did as 'wrong' and if you did, it would change based on how you might be feeling at the present…I didn't feel stable. I didn't feel safe. In stead I was made to believe I was 'controlling' or unstable or just crazy…No, that's not me.

You will always occupy a special place in my heart. But I am sorry, I can't be in your life anymore as an active "Special Friend' or "Family". I will always be sensitive, and have all sorts of feelings connected to you and other men, that you discuss as it's completely normal and not a problem... . And I accept that for you, maybe it is. But for me, it's not something I ever even vaguely felt with any other woman ever and it was the reason or one of the prime reasons I ended it, last January and a few times before that and after, I saw that we just never will see eye to eye and that you don't offer any real comfort of safety for me, although you clearly do love me very much. I was never about 'telling' you what to do or not, all I wanted and I know I said it endlessly was a CONSISTENT feeling of sensitivity and understanding. I offered that to you. As I was very aware even the night before our last, in actually asking you if it was ok to be texting a female friend while we were together. I wanted the same that I offered

The sanctity of what I thought was so special for us, was shattered and that no matter what you said about me being so 'great' or 'special' or 'romantic', etc., to me just don't hold the same 'water' as when I believed I was the one. And yet I think you did and do believe everything you ever did say about how you loved me, appreciated me, enjoyed me and more. I know you did. But, actions speak louder than words and I'm sure it's nothing 'personal' that you weren't able to act in certain ways that I needed.

I do see you as a beautiful proud stallion, who loves me but kicked me and bit me more times than I want to remember.

As I have said more than a few times, in spite of all of this my life is fuller, better and richer having had you in it.

[Hurt llama]

she replied... .   vague as usual... .  

I understand only too well.  I really would appreciate the horse print when you can send it. It means a lot to me.

It's looking more and more likely that I will get the job with x. I'll pay you back the loan ASAP.

Thank you again.

[goldylamont]

Hurt llama i wanted to say that everything i'm saying here, to you or anybody else, i'm really also saying this to myself. each of our situations are different and i want you to know that i recognize that.

the only reason any of this hurts so much is because these people were truly amazing in many ways in our lives. i never mean to discredit this. what i am working towards is redirecting my energies toward finding those same amazing qualities elsewhere.

and, dammit, we should hurt. this is what good people do 

[goldylamont]

about the money--i feel you. i would have never lent any money to my ex if i didn't feel she deserved it. she was never the gold-digger type, quite the opposite. could turn any cheap throw away item shine into art with her crafts. my biggest fear with the money was that i'd find out that she took some expensive vacation with some new bf of hers on my dime... .   which never happened, i feel very lucky regarding this. i just went through so much i didn't need to hear about anything else that would devalue our past r/s, so, i feel lucky in this regard. and, as i was saying before, i want to remove money from the conversation altogether, if she feels the need to contact me then just do it b/c you wanted to, don't use the money you owe as an excuse (which surprisingly is forgotten whenever she's in full passionate love with her next victim)... .  

[goldylamont]

CryingWings, what your exbf is doing is so mean, you don't deserve it.

Have you guys ever heard that it takes half the time to get over a relationship as the time you spent in it? I kind of like that saying, and i feel it gives more time to heal. i'm about 1yr out of a 4yr r/s, so about halfway there! 

[goldylamont]

HERSEXISAWEAPON HISSEXISAWEAPON

i wanted to start a new thread on this. hersexisaweapon just came to me. i truly feel that BPDs in r/s use sexuality as a weapon, maybe because it was used against them, when they were too and they never healed? i did some artwork with pencil and drew a big cartoon, nothing at all explicit, but after i looked at it, this cartoon devilish face with HERSEXISAWEAPON scrawled over the top it was scary, i was scared someone would find it. i put it in the shredder. at some point i think i'll start a new thread on this but i want to think about it b/c i don't want it to get explicit as it need not be to understand. but seeing those words scrawled out in all caps in pencil just made me draw back a moment, see what i was dealing with.

but, perhaps something to think about. b/c i see it time and again, boy or girl, they use their sexuality as WMD's, no?


i don't even want to write this; but i'm pretty sure i mentioned this before, but i didn't find out about BPD until a few months ago, almost a year out of the r/s, 4-5 months NC. my ex's roomate (woman) wanted to meet with me saying that "i think something is wrong with her". after talking with the roomate, who, i dunno her too well, but i could tell she was really affected by their arguments. i was shocked, never thought she'd act wild like that with a plutonic, woman friend. i thought it was confined to r/s with men (and only those who she professed to "love". and, this thought didn't occur to me until a while after i spoke with the roomate, but i feel my ex totally used hersexisaweapon on her roomate. the roomate told me that my ex would have really, really loud sex, that it almost sounded fake. and that she (roomate) would bring it up, kind of in a  light-hearted way, and that my ex would just say "oh we're just gal roomies, that's what we do, right?" and smile. but the honest part of me that doesn't want to believe it feels that my ex was punishing her roomate, making her feel low, insecure for not having a man. the roomate is a cool gal, funny and cool personality. but my ex is a real looker, most guys fall all over her. she comes across as so down to earth, but i really feel like she smiled and laughed as "friends" with her ex-roomate all the while just trying to make her feel like lonely scum. this isn't something the roomate admitted or said, perhaps it's just conjecture, but, i just feel it's true. i never thought my ex would act like that towards another woman, these were things i never saw when we were together. i've heard several *women* friends of mine say that she was "more stable" when she was with me, go figure

[goldylamont]

CryingWings i put your quotes in italics

... .   including that he was going to embark on sexual liaisons with his exes because life had to "go on" right and I'm just being honest and letting you know". He then ensured to tell me that this should however not interfere with us being best friends and family because I will always be his best friend in the entire world and I've always been family to him. He continued to tell me that it shouldn't make any difference if we can't be together in "that way" because we were first best friends and family to one another.

... .   Either way I'm the target and he is the machine gun.  

hissexisaweapon

but, that's really all they have going for them if you think about it... .  

I surmise that I can NEVER be my exes friend, best friend or family because it is just a manipulation from his part. I can't speak for anyone else clearly but I'm sure we can all figure it out in our own cases. Not only is it a manipulation to not be ever accountable, responsible or even conscious of the things he has done, continued to do or perpetrated against me but at the same time it is keeping me as his objects so that he can continue to be 'fed' in some way.

very power hungry. soul eaters. i truly feel this in quite a literal way, that they eat the energy of souls because in many ways they lack a true knowledge of themselves. it fills a void (for about 10 min, but leaves a void in us for much longer). this is very, "othering", by the way, i realize calling a person a soul-eater can sound powerless or as if lashing out. i don't mean to say that they are like this all the time... .   whatever. what i'm trying to say, ok, sometimes is that they suck the life force out of you. and, for what? is what confuses me. if someone steels my wallet i'm thinking at least they get to have some fun with the money but stealing energy... . where does it go? perhaps a temporary relief? it's cheap, wasted on nothing is how i feel. and our bodies are frantically trying to tell our thoughts "no nono no! don't give up no mo energy!"

It isn't about being genuine best friends or having a genuine sense of having a bond that feels like family. It has no bearing in truth because he was never truly able to be that to me. How do I know that? Because of how he treated me in the relationship.

let's say we forgive and forget everything from the past r/s, just for fun--let's just take the last phone call and analyze that. that was so mean and cruel. i had to deal with a lot of this throwing sex with other people in my face too. you're instincts are right, and he is being wrong. this sucks CryingWings i understand  

What exactly am I hanging onto here with this dream?

there were real, true, amazing good times i'm sure you had together. true for him too, or he wouldn't go through the trouble of continued manipulation to keep you around. i think the hardest thing for me to accept is the dual reality of it all. it's good to look at all the bad though for a while to keep things in perspective. but, give yourself credit CryingWing i'm sure a lot of love you felt with this person came from a true place of your own integrity. if this type of r/s happened over and over with you then that would be one thing, if not though, even though you're seeing his true colors now (afterwards even more, like me), i'm sure there are moments you enjoyed b/c of *your* beauty, love and kindness. and i'm sure he appreciated it... .   and then tries to skewer you b/c of it  

Illusions are mighty powerful because they are everything we want to believe with all our hearts. Ultimately it all boils down to a dream that simply never was on his part and in mine only in different ways.

i know, in retrospect to what i said above this is also truth, a truth our bodies have been screaming to tell us for some time, but only come to the surface when we have distance. sad but true. good for you for SEEING it! that's half (er... . hum, 1/5? of the battle?  

If we could really be friends then he would never have abused me like he did

like he's still doing now, like in your last conversation. i don't want to bring back the bad memories, just that for me sometimes i start looking at the past and seeing some wrong things i did also and do some self-gaslighting. not that i didn't make mistakes... .   my point being, you could just take the last "friendly" conversation and analyze it and it will tell the same story of the whole r/s... .  

i can say the same in my situation too.

[goldylamont]

oh CryingWings i just had this thought about what you mentioned before:

Illusions are mighty powerful because they are everything we want to believe with all our hearts. Ultimately it all boils down to a dream that simply never was on his part and in mine only in different ways.

Illusions ARE mighty powerful because they are everything we do believe with our hearts. Everything is an illusion, even beauty, peace and true love. What makes any illusion true is our belief, our faith in the illusion. faith in bad is as strong as faith in good if the faith is of the same conviction. so, it's up to us to dream wisely.

[Surrender]

oh CryingWings i just had this thought about what you mentioned before:

Illusions are mighty powerful because they are everything we want to believe with all our hearts. Ultimately it all boils down to a dream that simply never was on his part and in mine only in different ways.

Illusions ARE mighty powerful because they are everything we do believe with our hearts. Everything is an illusion, even beauty, peace and true love. What makes any illusion true is our belief, our faith in the illusion. faith in bad is as strong as faith in good if the faith is of the same conviction. so, it's up to us to dream wisely.

Beautifully put Goldylamont... .   all of your assessment. Really helps and yes a part of the power my ex had was that our bond was so intense and our good times were amazing. The only problem was that it was both extremes either amazing (the running joke was that we were so closely synched that we were like Siamese twins) or it was a pure living hell.

Sex is really all they have and I keep recalling my ex explaining in detail how every encounter he ever has was always with model types and drop dead gorgeous chicks that guys would kill for. The whole Narcissism sex thing when he would speak about ALL his encounters, relationships seem to be huge exaggerations but in his mind that is how he saw it. He would say things like "I'm only ever with drop dead gorgeous women" or "the only women that are attracted to me are model types". The whole thing was weird and convoluted. 

What remained consistent throughout was that if we were out in public his mood would shift instantly if men stared at me or God forbid came to speak to me if he was in the loo or when at the beach in the water without me. Then this shift would bring on his insecure (jealous) rage just because of that event. That flavor of the moment would last days sometimes in his emotional mood swings, emotional dysregulation and rages.

Like your post said about the hand... .   he was obsessed with the notion of always needing to have the upper hand of power in the r/s. To prove this point he did not want to tell me that he Loved me too often because he didn't want it to go to my head. He didn't tell me that I was beautiful because in one of his lucid moments he said that "I didn't need to be told that because it would just go to my head and he had to keep me humble". Well I've never been a superficial person but when he would say things like that it was more about him and his own insecurity.

If he told me I was beautiful, then he would appear vulnerable and it would be too obvious. (which is what he confessed in a lucid jealous moment) Same with the love thing so I would play the same game on him. Drove him nuts because the narcissist hated that and wanted to be told how much I loved and needed him. Well I would say nothing and finally he would break and be the one to 'out of the blue' come over to me put my face in his hands look into my eyes and say "do you love me? Do you need me?" "how much do you love me?" I would respond by repeating his questions.

Emotions of love were tough for him to talk about or express verbally.

I started to take notice that we had to be literally immersed in each other for him not to react to other people's reactions. He spent his entire time assessing everyone's reaction to me to himself and to us.

These shifts were instantaneous and I could never figure out what the triggering cause was. It was like the wind literally shifting out of the blue and there it was yet another blow. I came to wait for these 'blows' because they happened often just couldn't ever predict when or where. Everything would seem totally normal and you wouldn't have a clue and then suddenly his face would change and the blow would hit and there it was Mr. Hyde from Hell.

Great experiences definitely. Did he have incredible charisma? Absolutely. Did he hook me in? Yes... .   can I see more clearly now that I have not had contact for 3 weeks and 4 days... .   Yes thank God but I still have a long way to go.

What you said about 'illusions' and our faith in them is so true. I see so many parallels in Hurt llama's accounts, in your accounts Goldylamont and in the way we fight to process this 'truth' so that we can be truly free of the lies.

[sunrising]

hersexisaweapon

but, that's really all they have going for them if you think about it... .  

This would be good for it's own thread, Goldy, and I suspect there would be similar conversation to your "It was the looks... .   that's about it" thread a while back (I was around for that one under a different name).

This is going to be a difficult issue for me to overcome.  There is no question that physical attraction has been the primary motivation for the beginning of... .   well... .   all my relationships.  And if that physical attraction results in a strong, passionate physical connection, I have become rather blinded to other things.  Never more true than with my exwBPD traits... .     I know the mature & responsible thing to do is abstain from physical intimacy until such time as I've come to know a woman more personally, so as not to have my judgement clouded by sex, but the reality is I've never done that.  I don't think I've even tried it.  In other words, my relationships become physical far too quickly.  I can be well into (as far as time goes, months... .   ) a relationship before I've thought about much else than: 1) Good sex? 2) Is she fun/ funny?  Priorities in reverse order... .  

I've seen a woman a few times in the last couple weeks and our physical relationship propelled far past our emotional or  intellectual relationship in... .   well... .   hours.  I'm pretty sure I've conditioned myself to consider a physical relationship or encounter with an attractive woman as an accomplishment.   For whatever reason(s), I seem to have become more adept at this "accomplishment" as I've aged.   The problem is, the accomplishment no longer matches my goals.  It seems possible that a relationship which becomes physical quickly is less likely to result in the type of relationship I want: True, adult love and intimacy.  I've definitely got some work to do.   

[Hurt llama]

Hurt llama i wanted to say that everything i'm saying here, to you or anybody else, i'm really also saying this to myself. each of our situations are different and i want you to know that i recognize that.

the only reason any of this hurts so much is because these people were truly amazing in many ways in our lives. i never mean to discredit this. what i am working towards is redirecting my energies toward finding those same amazing qualities elsewhere.

and, dammit, we should hurt. this is what good people do  

Funny, I'm going in the other direction now... .  

Same clowns, different circus. "Amazing people"... .   No, not really.

I am tired of thinking good memories or even bad. I'm just tired of thinking.

The real question is how, even though I recognised her sickness and the fact she made me feel unsafe, why did I continue in this dance of dysfunction?

Part of it is exposure to the enemy. And 'enemy' or abuser is a healthier way to look at them than with the sense of some hidden 'greatness' or beauty in them. We suffer from "Stockholme Syndrome".

I rather see her as some sort of monster, than a misunderstood child.

When in fact, it really doesn't matter. This is not my first rodeo as they say, there's nothing so special about being with a BPD other than being on a high, an exciting ride that makes you sick but you either never want it to stop or if it does stop you want to get back on. Round and Round it goes, wherever it stops, is a place you've been before and go back again.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4x6nZlefc

There's nothing good there really. The good we see in these creatures is the way we rationalize why we stay in Crazy Land.

My ex is not Satan, sure, but as long as she is this detached creep (love that word that she hates more than any... . wonder why) and doesn't show empathy, etc. there's nothing else to talk about with her.

There is good in almost every person. Try imagining your ex as not beautiful and rather as ordinary at best. How much of their so called 'charisma' is just manipulation and a need to control? Just about all of it. We romantize the abuse in my opinion. Because even in my ex BPD high functioning (this cannot be high functioning actually), the dynamic was almost a non stop struggle for power and veiled criticism and judging even the smallest of things, all to dominate and oppress.

My job is to make her irrelevant and get stronger because she is dangerous by definition... . She will never go away. Ever. Except if  I let her back. Then she will have the "Hand' and she drop an ice bomb and deadpan tells me something like "No easy way to say this Llama, I am back with (fill in the blank). You are a wonderful man. We are like family. Special friends". You are my soulmate. You love me, you really do!

[Surrender]

That was awesomely put Hurt llama  

Conan the Barbarian always said "what doesn't kill you will make you stronger".

In many ways this whole experience has opened my eyes to a deeper level of understanding with regards to not only this disorder but our own natural responses in what surfaces from the many things we have buried along the way.

[Hurt llama]

That was awesomely put Hurt llama  

I had inspiration.

Replay memories and see them through the perception I described in my Crazy Land Helter Skelter rant. I think doing that is helping me 're - order' the experiences and seeing my BPD crazy more accurately and how never really did I feel safe and relaxed. I was high. Pure and simple.

( I refer to my ex BPD partner as "Crazy" with all due respect. Or better said. None at all.) 

[Surrender]

and how never really did I feel safe and relaxed. I was high. Pure and simple.

Another huge light bulb moment when I read your synopsis.  

You hit the nail on the head and that was why I felt addicted to him but I also felt this very same thing coming from him as well. So in essence the addiction was coming from each other and we were 'feeding' it together.

[Hurt llama]

and how never really did I feel safe and relaxed. I was high. Pure and simple.

Another huge light bulb moment when I read your synopsis.  

You hit the nail on the head and that was why I felt addicted to him but I also felt this very same thing coming from him as well. So in essence the addiction was coming from each other and we were 'feeding' it together.

Yeah, I had a few light bulbs go off as I have been writing! I remind myself always that when I think of this (true) dynamic of 'us' feeding off of each other, I always remind myself of all of the successes I have had and do have in my life. I did this to remind myself that I am not as screwed up as her. That when she got this smug arrogant superior air and spoke down to me (always in defense of my disgust of her disgusting relationships with ex's and male friends and men in general yuck) I think of my past girlfriends and wife and how I have zero, not one unreconciled or weird vibey relationship, not with ex's, not with friends or ex friends and not in business. I don't do 'weird creepy' well. I am always very direct in all my relationships for better or worse.

I guess I often felt myself drifting into her Reality Distortion Field and to pull away from it, I would remind myself that she was right. I was the best man in the world and she can spend the rest of her life trying to find what we had with another ... .   and guess what?

What did we really have?

We existed as we did because of my ability or my boredom (really) in my life and that I suppose I was into The Hand as she was. That I had made my life before her in the world of proving myself. Doing battle and usually winning... .   and for the first time I confronted being devalued, destroyed, cut off at the knees, cremated, crucified, decimated by the realization that I was human, that my soulmate my Llama (we were llama together dont throw up please... .   ) could so 'easily' hurt me to the core and be with another man and make sure I knew by disappearing.

I cried like a baby when I found out... . I couldn't stop weeping like a little child... .   never in my life did I feel so much pain... .   and all she said was... . "I don't think we should break up, I should visit you as planned"

And when she saw my great life, my house, my family and we had sex on the bathroom floor... .   she said to me (I was expecting the usual platitudes but said "You know Llama, if you are not as experienced as I thought you were, it's ok to tell me"

What? She said what? OMG I am just remembering these buried memories! I was flabbergasted. Confused. What? She said what?

And we actually did talk that one out and she said that seeing me with family and in the real world she was scared and that I was a fantasy before that. I guess I understood but through the lense of knowing it was yet another grab for power, now I see it was much more than what it first appeared to be. In other words, my first instant reaction of feeling unsafe, thrown off balance was the correct one.

So yeah, maybe we 'fed' off on another but much more importantly, it was abuse and abuser and it was a form of mental manipulation and a play for power. Sure I understand the dynamics and the 'why's" she is this way. That as an abandoned child by her mother at a very young age, left with her sisters to be raised by a father who committed incest, that my ex who probably had a genetic predisposition for BPD was in full blown trauma.

And probably her mother and father and their parents on both sides before them all had a wild, crazy and sick abuse going on for generations.

Yes, as compassionate people and I think the majority of members here lean towards empathic as it's a 'prefect fit' for a Perfect Storm. And as a decent loving person, I may call my ex Llama mate names and try to summon up 'hate' but as I told her many times and is true right now... .   I never hated her... . not one time. I hated her actions and ultimately after I am done going through machinations in the healing process, I will never feel anything but a sadness for her. But she is dangerous to me as long as I buy into the illusion she lives in.

In truth I am immune. I always was really. Not from pain of course but of making a fatally bad mistake. Once she cheated on me and disappeared so that I was left with figuring it out, on some levels it was a game to be with her to make believe with her and to play a complex game of multi dimension strategy like chess, and I could never lose but I underestimated the effects and was drawn in and was really keeping myself on  the high.

Ouch.

[Surnia]

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