I might tell her she has BPD, booyah

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

thanks guys, so i'm still realizing things about myself as time passes by, and writing it all out here is helping. you guys are correct that using the letter for distance is totally misguided--and i knew this when writing it. honestly, i don't think that was my intention at all--however I always have to point out possible weaknesses like this in myself so i can explore them.

this is my latest revelation, and i feel closer to the truth. i'm going to let it sit for a while, but this feels "right", closest to my truth right now:

As of right now, I don't want to tell the ex about BPD, because I don't think she deserves my honesty or focus.

I wanted to write the letter to the "good" memory of the ex. For some reason everyone else cannot get past this idea that me telling her would be done to do harm her (your own personal projections?)--but I now know what my intentions were. Sadly, I think I am clinging to the idea of one day being friends with this person. With all of my friends I'm honest. I'm worried she may find out that I feel she has BPD from her ex-roomate who hates her now. When I am most quiet, and honest to myself, I wanted her to know now how I felt, even if it was difficult, b/c some time in the future, if it were possible to be friends then this would be out of the way. No stones left unturned.

And, now, after revisiting things and out of the brief "fog" of seeing only the "good" side, I don't know if I care to share my honesty and my truth with this person. You all are wrong, my weakness isn't that I want to hurt this person to feel better, never was, my weakness is wanting to stay connected and sacrificing myself through "honesty". At least, this is how I feel now, LOL.

I'm going to hold off for a bit and see how this sets in. It was nice though just knowing that this person doesn't hate me all the time, but i think the buck should stop there. She doesn't deserve my honesty, or attention or friendship.

[goldylamont]

thanks guys, so i'm still realizing things about myself as time passes by, and writing it all out here is helping. you guys are correct that using the letter for distance is totally misguided--and i knew this when writing it. honestly, i don't think that was my intention at all--however I always have to point out possible weaknesses like this in myself so i can explore them.

this is my latest revelation, and i feel closer to the truth. i'm going to let it sit for a while, but this feels "right", closest to my truth right now:

As of right now, I don't want to tell the ex about BPD, because I don't think she deserves my honesty or focus.

I wanted to write the letter to the "good" memory of the ex. For some reason everyone else cannot get past this idea that me telling her would be done to do harm her (your own personal projections?)--but I now know what my intentions were. Sadly, I think I am clinging to the idea of one day being friends with this person. With all of my friends I'm honest. I'm worried she may find out that I feel she has BPD from her ex-roomate who hates her now. When I am most quiet, and honest to myself, I wanted her to know now how I felt, even if it was difficult, b/c some time in the future, if it were possible to be friends then this would be out of the way. No stones left unturned.

And, now, after revisiting things and out of the brief "fog" of seeing only the "good" side, I don't know if I care to share my honesty and my truth with this person. You all are wrong, my weakness isn't that I want to hurt this person to feel better, never was, my weakness is wanting to stay connected and sacrificing myself through "honesty". At least, this is how I feel now, LOL.

I'm going to hold off for a bit and see how this sets in. It was nice though just knowing that this person doesn't hate me all the time, but i think the buck should stop there. She doesn't deserve my honesty, or attention or friendship.

[goldylamont]

wassup GreenMango! how do you always keep it so real? 

[GreenMango]

5 years together and 9 total knowing mine.  Been where you are at - its not easy.  Keep moving forward.  It gets easier.  Promise.

[doubleAries]

A wise person once told me a lot about the concept of "building yourself up by putting others down".

Goldy, why do you need to tell your ex she has BPD in order for you to feel "better" about yourself? The focus is still on her, isn't it? Same with NOT telling her--the focus is still on her. I understand--these people have a big impact on us, and shake us to our very foundations. But the only way to recuperate is to turn the focus back onto ourselves. And I also have been caught in the trap of saying "no--the rest of you don't understand! I really AM focused on me! Now let me tell you some more about this other person... .   "

$10 says if you tell her she has BPD she is going to let you know that YOU are the one with BPD. And this makes you feel "better"... .   how?

here's my own experience--my stbx husband of 18 years is diagnosed with bipolar w/psychotic features, ASPD, and NPD. He knows this. he knew it before I ever met him. He does treatment for it. A few weeks ago, he called the police on me to have me removed from my home because he thought he could have my property (that his name is not on) if the police took me to jail. I paid for a CD copy of his 911 call. On it, he tells the dispatcher "OK, she (he means me) stepped away for a minute--now I can talk more freely--she said I'm crazy and going off the rails!"

No, seriously--he KNOWS he's diagnosed bipolar. And yet he calls 911 to "tell on" me to the police for telling him he was starting to get manic again.

Not only are you not going to feel better--you are likely to escalate the situation. Especially if she isn't diagnosed, this is going to be a BS accusation to her, a "bring it on" challenge. It is immature to believe you can tell someone they are mentally ill--to "make yourself feel better"--and there will be no repercussions, they will just melt into the distance and your own discomfort will fade away, replaced by "truth and justice".

I'm an Aries--I know all about this quest for "truth". At 48 years old, I am FINALLY beginning to understand to keep it to myself. It starts out being about "trying to help", and stubborness makes it lead to "for myself".

I see no possible way this can help you feel better about yourself. If you already know the truth, so what? Why does telling it to the one person it is directed at make it more real somehow?

just saying... .   (been there, done that)

[goldylamont]

thanks for sharing your experience doubleAries, however I don't believe you read my last post very well.

i've been thinking about it more and yup, it's settled. i realize why i wanted to write that letter and I explained already, because i got weak and wanted to view her as a friend in the future, and couldn't live with the fact of having a friend without telling them something this big. i tell my friends the truth, eventually, all of them, that's just how i am. and, i just realized that i shouldn't be seeking any friendship from this person any more, and losing that friendship forever is the fear i'm working with.

i won't repeat it again b/c i've said it many times and it just doesn't seem to get through to some people posting. this isn't about retribution, and never was for me, ever.

i think a summary is in order, and i'd like to thank *all* posters for helping and throwing in their 2 cents!

1) some people have spilled the beans, perhaps expecting to help or to change the BPD in a certain way, and this doesn't work. in fact it came back and smacked them in the face, so, it's better in many cases to just keep things to yourself

2) other people have spilled the beans and feel ok about it, but only because they were ok with the fact that it didn't help the BPD at all and they were able to work through it

3) i've found out personally why i wanted to spill those beans, it was to be completely truthful and preserve a "friendship" that i just need to let completely go of

[Sum1]

This is my first ever post on this board.

yay me!

I understand what Goldy is saying. before i fully understood how to deal with my ExGFBPD(even though I knew she had it) I decided to tell her... . as you can imagine that didnt go over well and she said she has only been having trouble the last two years. She then said she didnt need my help and to leave her alone... . there was one other occassion where we were arguing and I told her plain out she was borderline and she didnt rebut. of course she probably thinks she is just fine... . but yea... . Im two weeks in NC mode... .   I feel pathetic... . I still want her to call... . I know she is incapable of loving me... . its tough.

but I sometimes just want to just tell her plain out... . but I know she will twist it... .

[LongGoneEx]

Goldy, You are dealing with someone who is emotionally arrested at the age of 3-6. Mine talked to stuffed toys... .   and she sincerely believed they talked back to her. Turns out she'd made major life decisions based on these conversations. BPD makes a sufferer engage in whatever delusional/magical thinking they need to to get out of jail for free. That is to say, appear perfect in their distorted reality.

There's a lot of narcissism in BPD: mine Googled the DSM diagnostic criteria which she fits to a T and within an hour denied any of her behaviors matched them. She then told me that since she didn't match any of them, clearly I was delusional, and that the therapist I was talking to who felt she was BPD was a quack. It's hopeless until a pwBPD sees their problem for themselves, by themselves, and gets therapy. Which is all very unlikely to happen.

So if you want your ex to think you're delusional, go ahead and tell her. It makes no difference in the end and she'll probably enjoy the drama meantime of arguing with you about it. It sooths her object constancy issues to know she can still jerk your chain.  So I'd say take GreenMango's advice and just walk away without saying anything at all... .  

[Surrender]

My T gave me a great abbreviation to learn. F.E.R. F: Fascination, E: Enmeshment/Entanglement, R: Retribution.

So: You become fascinated by the person (and they by you). You become enmeshed/entangled in their life (and obviously their disorder) and then you get punished for becoming involved or getting to close: Retribution.

This is the cycle of BPD. It can happen in a few hours, or 15 years. How ever long YOU allow this to happen.

In conclusion: Telling a BPD she/he has BPD is pointless unless they are truly able to face there own personal wounds and are willing to take the hardship of a long, difficult therapy. However the case may be, since you are obviously the main cause of all her unhappiness, he/she will never accept this information from you. Don't even try... .  

She is now on her 3rd replacement and running F.E.R. again and again and again... .  

mrclear

Mrclear you are indeed clear and I am learning a world from you. Thank you so much! Often we are touching upon the 'something' that we can't put into words or fully 'see' but time and time again you lay it all out plain as day.

This cycle you speak of was exactly the case with me. By the time I reached the retribution phase I knew it was over because the hatred, cruelty, raging and disgust I saw in him towards me was irrational and just abusive. It got worse with each episode. The retribution kept escalating and his rage seemed endlessly building like a fire that could never go out. It scared me... .   he scared me. In between each emotional dys-regulated episode there was guilt on his part and he would shower me with attention, 'love' and what I thought was consideration, kindness and a gentleness only to be hauled once again to the fiery pier where he was burning me alive with his words, cruelty and punitive measures. It was so twisted but somehow what he was doing to me kept me as his 'victim' enslaved. He had full control and he knew it so his retribution got worse with time. The more control he had over me the more punitive and abusive he became. When he would do this he wouldn't even allow me to touch him, speak to him and if he looked at me he would let me know he was thoroughly disgusted with me as though I were a wretched creature.

It was unlike anything I had ever been through in my life with anyone. I was utterly traumatized and the vestiges of PTSD are present which is what I'm working through. As for me I came to the conclusion that it would be utterly useless to tell him to get help or that he is suffering from what is a very serious thing. The retribution was there solely on account that I got 'too close' to him so he had to punish me. The more I loved him the harder he was on me and against me. If that is the case with love how much worse would he be if I tried telling him the truth about his illness? It would be utterly futile and if anything may trigger something more within him. I don't see an 'out' for him and telling him the truth certainly wouldn't provide him with the answer because a huge part of his illness is denial and projection. He lives moment to moment and the rest is a huge terrifying void that he has to do everything to deny and not think about. His life has to be consumed with things that will take him away and make him 'feel' something 'more' until that gets too close and too real.

So if his rage and hatred against me was what it was when he was showered with my love and wounded attempt at trying to understand the absurdly crazy, then what would it be if I tried to tell him the truth about the very illness that distorts the very fabric of his reality on a daily basis?

From what I have seen telling him would back fire and only serve to possibly make him worse. There is no happy ending to this story, no closure just me going on in my own life doing what I need to for myself.

[Surrender]

One last thought on this just because it hit me in a nutshell and I couldn't add it to my other post.

If my ex found cause through his distorted version of reality to blame me for Everything than why would he suddenly believe me if I tried telling him the truth about his illness? If anything in his mind it would be confirmation that I was the one with the illness and he would feel vindicated. It would manifest itself by increasing the strength of his already very twisted reality and delusions confirming everything that he has been telling himself in order to safely sabotage his entire world.   

[mrclear]

CryingWings,

Thanks. It's important to be able to understand and search for answers. We need these answers and explanations to move on and heal.

You talk alot about projection and that's excactly what it is! In the Fascination/Idealization phase the BPD projects your positive (and negative) traits onto themselves. Since they have no sense of a "true self" They become you. They supply all your needs and seem to read every wish from your lips. They are masters at this and that is why, in the beginning, you seem so perfect for eachother. You think you have found your soulmate... .   "However, this not an "act" they can maintain for long.

Their self-loathing and negative traits surface eventually and they punish you for getting close enough to see them. Now YOU become the projection-screen in which they can see themselves. They're basically projecting all their faults and there instabilities onto you. You become the reason for their unhappiness. (Devaluation/retribution).

Why? Because you're there and you got too close! This is not personal! It's the only way they can deal with their present situation and maintain their instability. This is very important for them! The hardest thing for us to realise is that we loved somebody who basically didn't exsist. You are detaching from a dream, a projection, someone who tranformed themselves into what you wanted them to be.

It's understandable that we are traumatized. It's healthy to go through our pain, relive the moments and feel. We need closure for ourselves, but we need to analyze the relationship for what it really was/wasn't... .   To really detach, you have to start forgiving yourself for letting someone put you through this. 

[mrclear]

Sry, one correction:

I wrote: "You are detaching from a dream, a projection, someone who tranformed themselves into what you wanted them to be".

I meant: "You are detaching from a dream, a projection, someone who tranformed themselves into what THEY THOUGHT you wanted them to be".

I'm still learning every day... .    

[goldylamont]

just letting you all know that you are totally correct about the reactions to be expected from telling a BPD about BPD. and completely correct about how it could come back and hurt you.

when i started this thread i was looking ahead though. what if there is a day when it just didn't matter anymore to you? that's where i'd like to be, albeit not there altogether yet. and, while this sounds cold, i don't mean it to be. i would never say anything that i feel would endanger my exBPD, but at some point, if in any way she stayed part of my life, it's something i feel i would have to say. i've tried bringing up difficult subjects when we were in the r/s, and i'd wait until we were on really good footing thinking it was a good time to talk about difficult subjects, WRONG  .

but just, if you can, for a sec, if possible, imagine, if it were safe for them, and safe for you, just not really giving a damn about their reaction. being ok if they go on a rant and call you crazy back. knowing that they will be over it in 20 min any way, and you would too

i posted this thread in L3 for a reason, i looked at the levels and tried to determine where i was at and where i wanted to go. this thread was about personal strength and personal freedom, inner truth; and, what i've found through writing for me this thread was about finding out my own fear and understanding it.

i don't really feel so much like saying anything to my ex about BPD right now. but it's not because i'm worried about her reaction, or my reaction to her reaction. it's because i really really don't want to care about it any more at all... .   but i know that a little part of me still does. i don't feel she deserves this much of my attention or consideration. and, i'm keeping my fingers crossed i stay strong enough not to give it, in any way 

[whereisthezen]

Hi Goldy,

From your last post, I have to say that whatever you decide is best for you to do now or in the future, 100% do what YOU need to do.  I think to have anything additional be unresolved after ending a relationship of this kind, would be hard to get over.  Do what you have to do, what is right for you, either way, it is YOUR life and your actions.  Reading what you wrote I could see how one may need to be true and honest to themselves and resolve any issues they may need to and that may include saying to someone that should they want help they may want to look into the following areas as their behaviors are quite similar.

Just wanted you to know that now is the time to think of what you need and give that to yourself.  Peace of mind I think is a wonderful state to be in.  I want us all to have that going through all of our caretaking, we should at least be able to have our own peace 

[Chazz]

CryingWings,

Thanks. It's important to be able to understand and search for answers. We need these answers and explanations to move on and heal.

You talk alot about projection and that's excactly what it is! In the Fascination/Idealization phase the BPD projects your positive (and negative) traits onto themselves. Since they have no sense of a "true self" They become you. They supply all your needs and seem to read every wish from your lips. They are masters at this and that is why, in the beginning, you seem so perfect for eachother. You think you have found your soulmate... .   "However, this not an "act" they can maintain for long.

Their self-loathing and negative traits surface eventually and they punish you for getting close enough to see them. Now YOU become the projection-screen in which they can see themselves. They're basically projecting all their faults and there instabilities onto you. You become the reason for their unhappiness. (Devaluation/retribution).

Why? Because you're there and you got too close! This is not personal! It's the only way they can deal with their present situation and maintain their instability. This is very important for them! The hardest thing for us to realise is that we loved somebody who basically didn't exsist. You are detaching from a dream, a projection, someone who tranformed themselves into what THEY THOUGHT you wanted them to be.

It's understandable that we are traumatized. It's healthy to go through our pain, relive the moments and feel. We need closure for ourselves, but we need to analyze the relationship for what it really was/wasn't... .   To really detach, you have to start forgiving yourself for letting someone put you through this. 

This is an excellent post, mrclear.

I'm NC again (as always, her choice) after countless recycles. I now recognize I've been detaching for some time without actually realizing it. Sorta the drip, drip drip of falling out of love with someone, yet still so caught up in the Ex's chaotic life and insanity. I didn't fully see it, but it had gotten to the point where it wasn't about love anymore. It was like I was caught up in some terrible vortex I couldn't break free of. Misplaced loyalty, misguided friendship, unearned devotion, obligation, the memory of once loving her so completely... .   It's going to take time to unravel, but jeesh, loving her has been a nightmare.

The only thing I know for sure, at this point, is that I will never allow myself to be used and abused like that again.

[mrclear]

Remember that the udBPD wants to live stable in his/her instability. You'll get pulled into this faster than you can say... .  well... .  , "BPD".  It's takes a while to figure out what is happening to you. You start to rationalize and you're constantly trying to fight your way back to the idealization-phase. Since the udBPD ultimately needs conflict and pain to survive, you never will.

When we start to react to, become aware of and, god forbid, critisize their instability we are devalued and brainwashed into thinking that it must all be our fault. The end of the r/s is only a matter of time. The time that we allow to let someone do this to us... .  

mrclear

[debbiejoe]

Hey there Goldy... .  

I understand clearly what you were saying about wanting to tell her about your suspicions about BPD... .    My therapist told me when I had that same thought, to instead of writing her a letter or having a conversation with my sis about her issues, that I write a letter focused on myself and my boundaries... .  because no matter what I wanted to tell her, she was never going to change or receive it correctly, but that I had a responsibility to myself to clarify my boundaries and my stance.  That way, once and for all, I was able to say what I expected and what I would tolerate with complete clarity, and her behavior was on her... .  

I mailed her the letter with aboslutely no expectations attached.  I think that is the key to any communication like that with a personality disordered individual... .  attach no expectations.  Keep making decisions based on what is best for you!

[goldylamont]

Hey there Goldy... .  

I understand clearly what you were saying about wanting to tell her about your suspicions about BPD... .    My therapist told me when I had that same thought, to instead of writing her a letter or having a conversation with my sis about her issues, that I write a letter focused on myself and my boundaries... .  because no matter what I wanted to tell her, she was never going to change or receive it correctly, but that I had a responsibility to myself to clarify my boundaries and my stance.  That way, once and for all, I was able to say what I expected and what I would tolerate with complete clarity, and her behavior was on her... .  

I mailed her the letter with aboslutely no expectations attached.  I think that is the key to any communication like that with a personality disordered individual... .  attach no expectations.  Keep making decisions based on what is best for you!

thank you debbiejoe much for this post. i think this sums it up perfectly for me and is saying a lot of what i was attempting to communicate in this post. i know when i first found out about BPD i went through a phase of wanting to understand it, the why's/how's about this other person. but at some point i wanted to focus on moving forward, on my own needs, especially if there were to be any communication with this person going forward. i think a letter focused on finding and defining our own personal boundaries is an excellent exercise and example of self-love, self-understanding necessary to move ahead. it's restorative in a way, because our boundaries have been broken so many times in so many ways by the r/s with BPD. this is a great idea and something i will do if any communication continues. thanks for sharing!

[delgato]

Years ago, after we split the first time, I did a bunch of online research to try to make sense of it all, & stumbled upon BPD.

I'm no shrink, but she hit most if not all of the criteria pretty darn hard. Others who became involved with her would agree, as well. Over the years I've been involved with people who probably exhibited more than their fair share of traits, more than your average bear. Were they BPD? Who knows. But in comparison, this one really took the cake.


In any event, about 6 months after we split, I had sent her a quick email (no reply from her, but wasn't expecting one)... .  Basically told her that an uncle of mine had been diagnosed years ago as BPD (truth), and that maybe she might want look into that... . something to that degree.

At the time, knowing her, she probably thought I was talking about myself. 

Then again, by that point... . ? 


However, years later when we became reacquainted, she did on her own acknowledge & admit that she used to manipulate some guys I knew that she became involved with years prior. A bit of self-awareness on her part? Who knows. She's intelligent & curious enough.


But you know what? I'm sort of glad I indirectly hinted about it. Somebody had to. She knew she was "off" somehow, & was struggling with it. At least now it had a name, & it was something that could be looking into further on her own, should she so choose. I think she might have, and that's definitely a start if somebody wants to get better.

I sort of liken it to a physical ailment. Years ago, for example, I got a ganglion cyst in my wrist a few times. The 1st time it happened, I was a bit fre@ked out. Somebody (non-doctor) told me what it was. Whoa, is that what that is? Other people get them? I then read up on it, and even eventually had a doctor examine. Learned to monitor it, how to help prevent, what different treatment options there were, etc.

What's the difference? 


That said, with pwBPD, I think it's an area that should be treated with much consideration & tact.

If I had to mention it to her these days, I'd try to do it differently/better.

But I would definitely do it again. If it's a clear-cut case, I do think it's worth the gamble, for their sake, as well as for those in their lives.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to see lots of healthy people in this world.


Of course: boundaries, boundaries... .  

[doubleAries]

delgato,

the difference is you don't blame it on somebody else when you have a ganglion cyst 

[whereisthezen]

Doublearies, that always brings up for me why bipolar people can accept a diagnosis or those that are severely depressed but BPD's can't be told because they can't handle the ame for their behaviors.

The part of the brain that is different for BPD's than those with mental illness must be quite different. If they ever could treat that part with a medication designed to ellicit understanding, it would save so many from this terrible life long condition.

[goldylamont]

Doublearies, that always brings up for me why bipolar people can accept a diagnosis or those that are severely depressed but BPD's can't be told because they can't handle the blame for their behaviors.

this is actually a really good question. and, i could see that perspective that a person has so much self hatred that they refuse to take blame or acknowledge it to avoid dealing with feeling even lower about themselves... .  but, i don't think this is the case all the time.

for posters reading this thread--how many times has someone with BPD actually come to you and *apologize* for their behaviors? think about when you may have had a recycle, even though they may not have apologized totally, they know how to say the right things and make it appear as if they've changed--meaning that they know how to *appear* to take some responsibility for their actions; but of course they only do this when they need something from you.

if your ex wants you back in their life, all the sudden the integrity starts flowing and they'll make you believe they are realizing things about themselves and changing. if they don't really care at the time about having you in their life, they take absolutely no responsibility. this isn't indicative of a person who isn't aware of their actions or responsibilities. i think they know what's going on, and choose to admit it or not depending on if they need something from you or not.

it's complicated i know. for example, my exBPD told me a story after our breakup (we were still in contact for a while). she tells me that her good friend just broke up with her long time boyfriend. and she was calling the (now ex) boyfriend a complete a$$hole b/c apparently he would discuss some new relationship fling he was having with her friend. this hurt her friend hearing about a new love in her exes life--so my exBPD was saying "yeah this guy is an ass for talking about all of that to her". i was floored! it had been less than a month since my exBPD and i were living together, and she had a new bf all the sudden and took every opportunity to throw it in my face. showing me presents he bought her, telling me how great they were together and trusted each other, hinting at amazing sex with each other, all done with a smile and with full awareness and malice. i brought this up, not argumentatively but calmly without trying to provoke her... . "you know, you actually did the same thing to me. but it was even worse because we still lived together. and i remember telling you how much it hurt me to hear these things, but after this you told me even more... .  " she responded by saying what i said wasn't true, that somehow our situation was "different" and shut down the conversation with the expert tactic she loved to use of saying she didn't want to argue (even though i was totally calm).

anywayz, months later when she wanted me back, well, she never completely apologized, but she did acknowledge that she did some wrong back then. but see, this is just b/c she wanted something from me at the time. all the sudden she's willing to admit some wrongdoing.

no, i don't think it's always a pwBPD is incapable of processing their own blame, rather they purposefully choose to ignore it until they need it to reel you in. maybe not all the time, but sometimes this is the case.

[costadelmar]

I asked my exBPDgf to never contact me again she's pretty good about NC & since that request there's been NC for almost three months.  But I'm sure at some point she'll make contact again.  I fully intend to ask her if she's ever heard of BPD and will let her know she exibits almost all of the symptoms.  If she denies or gets angry I will simply state that I had asked for NC for a reason and until she addresses her BPD we will remain NC. 

This acomplishes two things in my mind: ONE, at some level they know something's wrong with them and a little prodding doesn't hurt and at some point they may finally try to figure out what it is and if they do get help then that's a good thing. 

TWO, by telling her about BPD it renforces the NC boundery that I've established and I never have to deal with her again in my life.  If she does go get treatment and therapy I know it's something that takes years to treat therefore I should not have to see her for a few years and by then if she's somewhat normal why would she contact me and if she did I know I'm dealing with someone who is aware and trying to help themselves.  Either way I'm out of the picture and that's just fine with me.

[delgato]

delgato,

the difference is you don't blame it on somebody else when you have a ganglion cyst 

"I don't have a ganglion cyst -- *you* have the ganglion cyst!"


Yes, a little humor can be good medicine for one's soul.

[costadelmar]

Just left my therapist I go about 4xs a year since my divorce 2 1/2 years ago.  I only recently found out about BPD he's actually treated many BPD's over the years and that he's never seen one of them overcome their disorder even the one's he had for over 4 years.  He also said and I quote don't f&@k up and allow any contact EVER!  So I will ignore and stay away from her the rest of my life. 

[doubleAries]

delgato,

If I *do* have a ganglion cyst, it's because of YOU! Look at what you did to me!

Seriously, projection is just one of the symptoms.

whereisthezen---My stbx husband is bipolar. Bipolar is a lot more than just severe depression. There is also the intense manic phase (and there are actually quite a few versions of bipolar involving severity). A pre-frontal cortex area of the brain is involved that very frequently (around 60 some % of the bipolar patients) causes them to have something called "anosognosia"--they lack insight into their condition. This is also pretty common in schizophrenia (and also happens in some stroke patients and Alzheimers patients).

Anyhow, stbx is bipolar 1 with psychotic features (paranoid delusions), and ASPD and NPD driven by the bipolar (secondary problems, not comorbid conditions). He has anosognosia issues. There are times that he accepts his diagnosis, but only on the surface. If you question him about HOW he knows, it completely unravels. He knows he was delusional in the past, but when asked how he knows, he actually still remembers it the way he experienced it (just like all of us do), so doesn't actually believe he was having a problem (like he explained to me once--it wouldn't be a delusion if you didn't believe it). When he is actually delusional (or even just really manic) there is no telling him he is delusional.

In short, many bipolar/schizophrenic people do NOT accept their diagnosis. This seems to be fairly common in most mental illness problems. I do not think anosognosia is the issue in personality disorders, but obviously something similar. probably has more to do with the formidable defense mechanisms they have in place.

[whereisthezen]

DA,

Great post thanks for the information.

I'm familiar with Bip, my aunt had sever lifelong Bip, lithium was the only thing that helped.  Sometimes denial but most of the time she'd yell yeah somethings wrong with me what are you going to do about it.

I think you nailed my own forming thoughts on the Bip/BPD dx issue:

"probably has more to do with the formidable defense mechanisms they have in place."

I know PFC issues from injuries have mental difficulties, but same injuries as BPD and still a BPD would go down fighting tooth and nail that its you not them.  I do believe the "defense mechanisms" you describe is the difference. One extra trait makes the difference.

[goldylamont]

i just looked up anosognosia doubleAries, thanks for that i hadn't heard of that term before. and like whereisthezen i agree with you that it's less anosognosia and perhaps has more to do with defense mechanisms. i wonder how much high vs. low functioning BPD plays into this also. i was with a pretty high functioning person, and so i feel she was aware, at least on some conscious level that what she was doing was not "ok". i'm sure lots of it she was perfectly content with too, but still i caught her plenty of times telling 'little' lies or doing manipulative things that required full awareness of her behaviors. no anosognosia (ha, i just wanted to say that, try saying it fast "no anosognosia" 

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anosognosia

[doubleAries]

I DON'T HAVE ANOSOGNOSIA---YOU DO! 

[doubleAries]

More seriously---there is also evidence that each psychotic break that someone with severe mental illness suffers causes more and more brain damage--just like a person who undergoes multiple strokes.

This link I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help! is to a book review that a psychiatrist wrote about anosognosia and mental illness. It is fascinating reading. He also outlines how to deal with anosognosia, and the reason it is reviewed here on bpdfamily.com's is because it may also be a pretty good approach to dealing with defense mechanisms such as the denial exhibited by BPD's. Clearly there is a difference between the BPD who is fully aware of the manipulations they are engaging in, and a schizophrenic who believes the TV announcer is talking specifically to him, but perhaps the ultimate outcome is similar (as far as others dealing with it). One big difference being that the BPD can overcome their denial in therapy, but someone with psychiatric anosognosia cannot. For many stroke patients, eventually the anosognosia fades. But this is rarely the case in severe mental illness--it generally worsens. But when someone else doesn't understand anosognosia, they accuse the person with severe mental illness of being in denial. I think there is a clear difference.

[Surrender]

delgato,

If I *do* have a ganglion cyst, it's because of YOU! Look at what you did to me!

Seriously, projection is just one of the symptoms.

whereisthezen---My stbx husband is bipolar. Bipolar is a lot more than just severe depression. There is also the intense manic phase (and there are actually quite a few versions of bipolar involving severity). A pre-frontal cortex area of the brain is involved that very frequently (around 60 some % of the bipolar patients) causes them to have something called "anosognosia"--they lack insight into their condition. This is also pretty common in schizophrenia (and also happens in some stroke patients and Alzheimers patients).

Anyhow, stbx is bipolar 1 with psychotic features (paranoid delusions), and ASPD and NPD driven by the bipolar (secondary problems, not comorbid conditions). He has anosognosia issues. There are times that he accepts his diagnosis, but only on the surface. If you question him about HOW he knows, it completely unravels. He knows he was delusional in the past, but when asked how he knows, he actually still remembers it the way he experienced it (just like all of us do), so doesn't actually believe he was having a problem (like he explained to me once--it wouldn't be a delusion if you didn't believe it). When he is actually delusional (or even just really manic) there is no telling him he is delusional.

In short, many bipolar/schizophrenic people do NOT accept their diagnosis. This seems to be fairly common in most mental illness problems. I do not think anosognosia is the issue in personality disorders, but obviously something similar. probably has more to do with the formidable defense mechanisms they have in place.

I was just curious, if a BPD has a psychotic break by being triggered (thinking that his partner was unfaithful) and in his state physically assaulted her but couldn't remember afterwards... .  would this be an indicator that he could lose it again? What does this indicate with regards to his BPD if he never had an occurrence like this in the past?