why the lies?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I ended the relationship, but have kept contact and began disengaging. I have given no personal information etc. I am eventually going to go no contact.  My ex who is undiagnosed still gives me details of what he is doing. Though, random, meaning some days i hear nothing, I still get details. Yesterday was one of the "detailed" days. I need to point out that he already has a new love interest living with him. She was there the day after I said no more. no suprize there. Ok, back to the point of lying. He has said he knows he is "troubled" and needs to seek "help". I have encouraged him seeking a doctor to get appropriate care. He told me weeks ago he made an appointment with a doctor to get  "help". The date for that appointment was yesterday. I checked out the doctor he named at that time. It was a Family Practice physician. I told him this because i knew he would need  more specialized care if he was to actually seek therapy. Anyway, I hadnt heard much until last night. He then wrote saying the following... . " I have anxiety, depression, PTSD, BPD is a maybe, I also need blood work to test for bipolar.I am also OCD and possibly ADHD ... . My main issues are trust/abandonment... . I also have reactive 'detachment' disorder... . "That was some list for a family practice doc to hand out. The red flag went up for me that he was lying. Also, it is reactive "attachment" disorder. But I played along. I simply said, I hope you get the help you seek. He went on saying how he was with the doctor for an hour and was told how he needed to stop sizing up the doc and just be honest. He kept emphasizing that the doctor was a man. As in, "he told me... . " this or that. He said he finally broke down crying and told them everything. All according to him, in a span of an hour. Another red flag for me. I know when you break through and open up, it can take a lot longer , especially on an initial visit. Then he proceeds to tell me he will see another doctor in two weeks for another visit. I then asked who he saw. The name was the same as the original he mentioned getting the appointment with. WELL... . That particular doctor is a FEMALE! NOT The "HE" my ex was referring to this whole time. In fact the clinic he claims to have gone to HAS NO MALE PHYSICIANS OR COUNSELORS THERE! Why on earth is he lying so much! I didn't call him out on any of it. I just want this to be done. I am continuing in my own therapy and trying very hard to disengage properly. I have noticed that with each day that I don't  have any conversation with my ex, I get stronger and more clear in my thoughts. I have read on here about the FOG clearing and I truly believe that to be true. Its not easy by a long shot to be silent and not "bite" when he is baiting we with accusations and blame etc., but I know whats true and am trying to be healthy and strong. any thoughts on his purpose for the lies he is telling me? He has lied so much now that i don't even believe the sky is blue when he says it, even though I have seen it with my own eyes. This has been a tough journey and I am sure there is more to come. Thanks for any input.

[clover528]

I ended the relationship, but have kept contact and began disengaging. I have given no personal information etc. I am eventually going to go no contact.  My ex who is undiagnosed still gives me details of what he is doing. Though, random, meaning some days i hear nothing, I still get details. Yesterday was one of the "detailed" days. I need to point out that he already has a new love interest living with him. She was there the day after I said no more. no suprize there. Ok, back to the point of lying. He has said he knows he is "troubled" and needs to seek "help". I have encouraged him seeking a doctor to get appropriate care. He told me weeks ago he made an appointment with a doctor to get  "help". The date for that appointment was yesterday. I checked out the doctor he named at that time. It was a Family Practice physician. I told him this because i knew he would need  more specialized care if he was to actually seek therapy. Anyway, I hadnt heard much until last night. He then wrote saying the following... . " I have anxiety, depression, PTSD, BPD is a maybe, I also need blood work to test for bipolar.I am also OCD and possibly ADHD ... . My main issues are trust/abandonment... . I also have reactive 'detachment' disorder... . "That was some list for a family practice doc to hand out. The red flag went up for me that he was lying. Also, it is reactive "attachment" disorder. But I played along. I simply said, I hope you get the help you seek. He went on saying how he was with the doctor for an hour and was told how he needed to stop sizing up the doc and just be honest. He kept emphasizing that the doctor was a man. As in, "he told me... . " this or that. He said he finally broke down crying and told them everything. All according to him, in a span of an hour. Another red flag for me. I know when you break through and open up, it can take a lot longer , especially on an initial visit. Then he proceeds to tell me he will see another doctor in two weeks for another visit. I then asked who he saw. The name was the same as the original he mentioned getting the appointment with. WELL... . That particular doctor is a FEMALE! NOT The "HE" my ex was referring to this whole time. In fact the clinic he claims to have gone to HAS NO MALE PHYSICIANS OR COUNSELORS THERE! Why on earth is he lying so much! I didn't call him out on any of it. I just want this to be done. I am continuing in my own therapy and trying very hard to disengage properly. I have noticed that with each day that I don't  have any conversation with my ex, I get stronger and more clear in my thoughts. I have read on here about the FOG clearing and I truly believe that to be true. Its not easy by a long shot to be silent and not "bite" when he is baiting we with accusations and blame etc., but I know whats true and am trying to be healthy and strong. any thoughts on his purpose for the lies he is telling me? He has lied so much now that i don't even believe the sky is blue when he says it, even though I have seen it with my own eyes. This has been a tough journey and I am sure there is more to come. Thanks for any input.

[Nearlybroken]

Hi... . I cannot really explain why BPD people lie so much as I am still in the process of finding out about it.I recently split with my BPD ex and am only now finding out about the full extent of his lies.My ex lied about lots of things to me (1.stated whilst we were together that he has no contact with his ex wife when I knew he was texting her and seeing her and at one point attempted a reconciliation with her 2.Told me that he had thrown out photos of her (even though I never requested he do this) when I found them hidden about her house. This happened twice 3.Lied to me about a relationship he had shortly after we split.4.Would blatently lie about  previous conversations we had and things he said.5.Lied to me about what his therapist said about me.I could go on but I will summarise by saying he told HUNDREDS of lies.).He also lied to his family and his friends... . mostly about me but also  about other things.When he wasn't lying he was dishonestly withholding stuff.Only now do I realise the extent of his lies.Most of them were utterly pointless .Even when blatently caught out in a lie he would never ever acknowledge his behavior.Strange but very very hard to be on the receiving end.

[clover528]

I think we have a similar story. Well, it seems the common theme for several of us. My ex also has been lying incessantly from the beginning. I'm not surprised by the lies. I'm trying to understanding why he would go to such lengths. With every lie he has told, it wasn't a little lie. It was huge! I hate to say that i rose to the occassion once i realized he was so deceitful that i stooped to some low levels myself to try and survive him. I have taken responsibility for my part in this. I thought he had too for a moment. Then he would flip and take his apologies back and place sole responsibility on me. After the long message he sent about the doctor I mentioned, he actually apologized and said it had always been him that was the problem and I thought maybe this was his way of acknowledging that he had a problem. This morning, after my post, he took that away again. Blamed me for it all and asked me why. Said he had believed I loved him as he loved me but he was a fool. That i never had loved him or had never been in love with him. It was hard to not reply. I didn't even reply last night to the seeming heart felt apology. But knowing his behavior flips on an instant, i knew the apology wouldn't last. Sure enough, gone by morning. There is so much i don't understand about this whole situation. He claims undying love and devotion only for me. While he has had relationships with no less than * other women and is currently living with another. He has even begged me to phone her to ask her how he feels about me! of course i never would, i just don't understand that behavior. The splitting occurs so quickly with him that i can never tell whether I am in danger of threats or cursing or if it is hearts and flowers and love forever. Any insight would be appreciated. I am reading here and looking for as much information as possible. I am very grateful for my therapist too. Thank you for the reply.

[bewildered2]

one of the hallmarks of BPD is inconsistency. so while one minute he will love you like no other, the next minute, literally, he might have absolutely no feelings for you whatsoever. and while he loves you, he really loves you, and you are the sole focus of his love, and he believes that you are the one and only one. but then it changes. and he can be with another person equally easily.

the lies start when he realizes what he said to you, and what he said to the other woman. and he knows that there is a problem, that he has told you both that he loves you (both), and that you and the other woman wouldnt be too pleased if the truth came out. so he lies.

you have to remember that BPD is a serious mental illness. if he has BPD then it is unfair of you to expect rational and sane behavior from him. if he was sane and rational then he wouldnt have BPD.

someone with BPD tells lies to cover up the truth. and they cover up the truth because they are ashamed of what they do, and they know darn well that if you knew the truth then you would likely and eventually leave them, thus triggering their greatest fear, that of being abandoned. 

so they lie so that they won't be abandoned.   

b2

[marbleloser]

There's many reasons to be untruthful.

Self preservation: As in,making oneself look good or at the least,not look bad.Remember the black/white thinking?When they see themselves as all good,

they'll go to any length to preserve that self image.If they feel  they are bad or have done something bad,well,what better way to make yourself feel

and look better than to lie about it?

Entitlement: If you think you're entitled to special treatment,why not lie in order to get,or keep getting,that treatment?

Staying out of trouble: This ties in with entitlement.If someone is caught doing something bad,wrong,illegal,etc.,, they may be untruthful about the

event(s) in order to preserve their "innocence".They may not believe they should own their mistakes or suffer the punishment.Deny to the end in order to

preserve "self".

Gaslighting: This one's a little scary.This is where someone lies,on purpose,in order to make you,or someone else,question your own senses.You may have

seen an event,but the pwBPD may describe it in another way in order to confuse you.They may do something like throw away your car keys,so you think your

memory is slipping and at the same time,now you need new keys.

You may have seen them somewhere,but they adamently deny you doing so.They then question your sanity.You may start believing them after a while.

Always the "victim": In order to remain in the "victim" state,someone may tell untruths in order to always have a "rescuer" lurking and willing to

help them from their "perpetrator".

Not all wBPD may do these things.I'm just speaking from experience.When you are away and out of the "FOG",you begin to realise much of these things

happening,although you may not have noticed when you were in the RS.The chaos and confusion was a normal part of the RS.

[clover528]

Thanks for the reply bewildered2. I know he isnt thinking rationally. Honestly, when I stumbled on BPD as a possible reason for his abuse and lying etc, I cried so much for us. Him as much as me. Now, in the light of day, I still cry for him and wish that he could get some help. It really is heartbreaking what we all go through. However, knowing what they must feel like to be so desperate and so out of touch sometimes, really is the worst. I though, because I am a people pleaser / caregiver type, that maybe I could do or say or be what he needed. I realized that he had to reach out for the help he needed. I am doing much better accepting the fact that he is ill and the dream i had for us is not going to be. It is still hard to wrap my brain around some days. I don't know if he thinks telling me he is actually getting help will somehow convince me to return, or if he is trying to make himself appear to be doing what he truly hasn't the courage to face. Either way, it is sad. I'm gaining perspective though, the more I learn.

[clover528]

Marbleloser, I think I may have posted the same time as you. Thank you for the breakdown like that. That covers so many of the lies I have been told. the last hour or so,he messaged me again. He said, he is moving etc... . said he wants to be alone. Then said vaguely that his ex wife is getting the kids. no time frame or anything. He even mentioned selling his house as well. I was concerned for the kids and simply asked if his ex wife was getting joint custody or just a normal visit, as it sounded as if it could be the case. He got defensive and said it was just a visit, and "wow, you don't think much of me do you?" I simply answered, it was only a question not a judgment and wished him well. I should not have engaged. I realize though, no matter how I reply, he will find a way to make me a bad guy. At least now I didn't defend really or explain. That would have in the past caused an all out war. I'm learning though. Thanks again,  for so much insight. 

[Bananas]

When he wasn't lying he was dishonestly withholding stuff.

Ugh... . yes.  The lies of omission were the worst, but the why to that is easy.  Because he felt he could look me in the eye and say he never lied to me.

[marbleloser]

You're welcome.You'll get better at not engaging in the future.You learn a little every step of the way.The most important being, about yourself.

[feelingcrazy7832]

My ex lied about everything. Everything. Even when there was no apparent reasont to lie, he would lie. I've posted this a few times in the past but one of his best lies was when he called me one day and told me an incredibly long story about how his ex wife showed up at his work and assaulted him. This was a very lengthy story down to the details of how bad she looked, tattoes she had (she has none) how she saw a pic of he and i on his work desk (he never had a pic of us there), etc.

Turns out... . she hasn't been in the state we live in since their divorce many years prior.

Go figure. When confronted, he raged and told me it was a different ex girlfriend that showed up. Later he would admit the entire thing never happened and he was trying to make me jeolous.

This is one of many, many, many lies.

[clover528]

I too have had the lies of omission. in one instance in particular, I pointed out that he had not told me something significant until after the fact when I had found out elsewhere. He was very defensive and accused me of not telling him anything and keeping secrets. His words, "keeping secrets". I found that statement to be very telling in hindsight. I'm seeing more now than I ever recognized before. Time I hope will help me find in me what I need to heal and not have such behaviors on my part in the future. I know I need work too.

[Clearmind]

Borderlines distort facts to match their feelings ---> distorted reality ---> don't see the world the same way you do.

Lack of trust - my ex did not trust anyone - facts were often distorted so he felt less ashamed, dodge blame and feel better about himself and so others would feel OK with him - its very unconscious.

Listen to what a person says to you and what their resulting actions are - if they don't match you may need to begin to question why you didn't question it.

[rj47]

\someone with BPD tells lies to cover up the truth. and they cover up the truth because they are ashamed of what they do, and they know darn well that if you knew the truth then you would likely and eventually leave them, thus triggering their greatest fear, that of being abandoned. 

so they lie so that they won't be abandoned.   

b2

It still hurts deeply no matter how much we tell ourselves "its the illness" for the simple reason that when they are stable and in love again we think ... . "the person we fell in love with is back, we can do this, and, its all gonna be OK!" But... . it never really is. And... . the dark in between periods seem to last longer and longer until you one longer even thinks about the good times. Time to step up and face reality.

[clover528]

I believe I was reeling from the seduction when the first signs of a problem came up. I was very much in denial. I couldn't believe this wonderful man, my presumed best friend and  lover were falling to pieces in front of my eyes.  We had known each other for years but very much from a distance in hindsight. Then when it began to escalate so quickly after years of friendship, I couldn't believe the turn around. I have been questioning why I didn't question sooner. That's a topic in therapy now. I am also reading some great literature on setting boundaries. So much I have learned about myself in such a short time period. I thought I had it figured out. Apparently, I have much more to learn.

[Clearmind]

clover528, you are making the right steps to get to the bottom of Why! Good for you... . we all need to come to a stage in our healing to look at us.

Boundaries are highly important - they protect you, your values, your morals - who you are! We are very limp without boundaries and prone to being walked over.

[clover528]

Thank you Clearmind. The words of encouragement mean so much. I spent the better part of two months of therapy swearing he myst have been right about me being the one with the issues. While i know i have a way to go before i reach optimum health, I am definitely better today than I was a week or month ago. I have some very week moments. For example, he is trying so hard to talk to me tonight. he is reminiscing and talking about things we found special about one another. Buzz words we had for moments of joy during our relationship. He is very poetic and has a way with words. He was always a hopeless romantic. He knew I craved the romance. He is really trying to recycle right now. I havent replied. Its harder than anything I have ever had to do. I dont have a hateful bone in me. Ive always been a push over for a hard luck story. I tend to wear rose colored glasses and see only the good or potential good in people. Hence the need for boundaries. Big issue for me. So, to basically be silent and ignore someone i truly love and feel for when they seem so genuine caring, isnt the easiest task. Im just being real. I know if i don't own what I am feeling and face it, i will never heal and grow. Iad because  also, know that should i reply, he will paint me black for any good or bad response. If I say i care, then i'm bad for not rescuing him and coming come to save him. If i say I dont want to or dont care, I then am bad because I never loved him and i am cruel to have "toyed " with him all this time. i know the outcome. I've been down that road of confusion. It still hurts though. I know detaching is key. I'm working on it.

[Clearmind]

Clover, we are human and we are emotional beings – we will oscillate and have good and bad moments – acceptance and true healing is being able to embrace both without viewing them as a weakness.

Ignorance is a weakness, feelings are not.

We do have issues! The best thing about seeking therapy and looking inward is also recognizing we are not in denial – denial is safe.

_____

Our r/s was not all bad – we cannot split it down the middle. Our partners are who they are – the good and the bad and the indifferent. We cant change that however we can change our perception of who they are and who we want them to be – this is fanciful thinking which keeps us stuck.

Recycle attempts/contact on both you and him is a way to relinquish the shame and blame of a failed r/s – it’s done in healthy r/s too.

Clover, relinquish this thought that what you do will help you feel good about himself – he needs to feel too and being nice rather than assertive to your needs really will only draw him closer – or is that the aim? It’s OK to be assertive and exercise your boundaries.

It’s OK for you not to feel like you need to walk on eggshells to appease a disordered person. You matter.

[clover528]

Thank you so much for the thoughts and advice clearmind. I am just taking things one day at a time.

[jmc8899]

My BPDex is the biggest liar I've ever encountered.   He constantly twists situations to make himself look like the victim.   When he's not outright lying, he's omitting facts.   He's a pro at making people feel sorry for him, and has mastered the sad puppy act.   When i was with him, i had to hide so much from family and friends because I was afraid of how he would react if he found out I was telling people the truth about what was happening between us.   

[rj47]

When i was with him, i had to hide so much from family and friends because I was afraid of how he would react if he found out I was telling people the truth about what was happening between us.   

I hid the truth from family and friends for years. When I finally broke down and starting asking her family if she had been telling them anything that seemed "off" they were relieved. Not only was she telling them I was a lying womanizer; but a near alcoholic that was mostly out with friends and a sex addict. I don't drink. Friends (even couples) are near impossible to have. Sex? Its not worth the guilting and ridicule that comes during an episode. And... . I don't cheat. I'm fortunate, they never believed it knowing me and having endured the family conflict she largely created for 40 years. Outsiders usually intuit that something is not right long before we can. Amazing what someone's "normal" can become.

Maybe there is no choice but  to involve others to manage and counter the misinformation. It does not need to be destructive or critical.

[em754]

The lies are extremely depressing. You find who you thought was your life partner and soul mate and give them all your trust, only to have it all twisted and used against you. After many years of marriage I now would not trust my wife out of sight on a dark foggy night!

[laelle]

My ex was a bit proud of the lies he could spin.  I think he had a general dislike for people when it came right down to it because he couldnt trust anyone.

When he and I got together I was in an unhappy marriage and he was in an unhappy relationship (go figure).

I was amazed at his teaching me how to lie to my now ex husband in a way that made my ex husband feel like he was the one that was crazy.

He also made comments that he had his girlfriend so convinced that she would never doubt him.

This should have brought great shame and a HUGE   for me.  I wanted so much to be loved by him that I would have done anything to please him.

Kinda makes you understand how cult leaders can manipulate others into following them.

They lie because they can, and because they are so damn good at it, and after all, the world deserves it as they are the prosecutor, judge and jury in their own warped reality.

[leftbehind]

He constantly twists situations to make himself look like the victim.   When he's not outright lying, he's omitting facts.   He's a pro at making people feel sorry for him, and has mastered the sad puppy act.

My God, did we date the same man?

[bewildered2]

an expert with BPD explained it this way. they lie easily and at the drop of a hat. and they say anything at the moment that needs to be said to work for them, whatever that purpose might be.

the lies don't add up. they never do. and that is why they get in a mess because after a while you start to notice the inconsistencies and may question them on it. which leads to more lies. or they get angry and fly into a rage. and all because they think you might figure them out for what they really are, and not the carefully constructed perfect looking person that they want you to believe in... . and if you see them for who they really are, they fear that you will up and out, so the abandonment fear gets triggered.

two things are guaranteed with a borderline. one, that you will get a pack of lies from them. two, that you will suffer emotionally. that's just the way it is with them, they cant help it.

b2     

[Grace58]

Mine lied as a way of regulating her feelings.  If she matched the narrative to her emotions, all was well with the world.  With a good solid dose of narcissism, she lied to make herself look good.  She lied about my position, to make me look more important, she lied about what she did that day, she lied about people, her past, her dogs, everything.  She cheated and finagled and lied.  The worst lies came when she felt guilty or ashamed, and then the narrative was completely fabricated, otherwise there was a grain of truth buried somewhere.

The way she broke up with me was not honorable and her friends would be unsympathetic if they knew the truth.  Feeling guilty and ashamed?  bingo... . the lies about me in the end were so vile and she is such a good waify liar that I almost lost my mind.  It has taken me 18 months to realize that indeed, it was a mental illness, and that there was nothing I could have done to make it better.  But the dishonesty?  It will be a very long time before I am able to love without doubt again.

[rj47]

She lied about my position, to make me look more important, she lied about what she did that day, she lied about people, her past, her dogs, everything.  She cheated and finagled and lied.  The worst lies came when she felt guilty or ashamed, and then the narrative was completely fabricated, otherwise there was a grain of truth buried somewhere.

That is perhaps one of the most frustrating aspects of the behavior. I could make sense of the disorder when it was in my face raging, taunting and abusing. When it receded, I thought... . she's better now and back for a time. But... . it never goes away and the constant lying (even when apparently stable) about the most mundane things in her life and mine become hard to keep up with. She was utterly dismayed and often angry that I could not participate in the lies (I learned to dodge questions rather than be forced to support the fictions). There is always some small connection to a truth or event, but the narratives were utterly "off" to the point that I began to question my own recollection of the events. When she started telling people about "our" business dealings it became intolerable to hear her embellish about my business and her fictitious role in it. She has no idea what I do and ridiculed every opportunity I've ever pursued calling me a loser if it did not materialize. Better when I failed so she could rub by nose in it even though she had the best of everything and never had to work a day in her life. So, yes... . the fabrications, embellishments and small lies are maddening and hard to keep up. She never could rationalize that there was anything wrong with the deceit... . as in, "I embellish a little... . what's the big deal? On the flip side I am fascinated about her ability to keep, maintain and grow some of the lies... . for years. Many times I could feel my head was about to explode... . so I simply gave up trying make sense of it.

[Ahhhh431]

My ex would constantly tell me about other men who would try to flirt with her or be after her... . Come to find out if this was true it was because she initiated the flirting... . I don't think I ever heard the full truth that wasn't altered in some way. I once asked her if she talked to her exbf one day and she said "no we didn't talk" and I found out she had text him and she said "you asked if we talked, we didn't, we texted" one time she denied every form of communication and was like "no we haven't called talked, or texted all day" come to find out she started emailing... .

[clover528]

What is amazing too about the lies is that in this particular case about the doctor visit, I pushed the question of the doctors name and what was said. He went into detail about the entire conversation between the two of them again. He was very emphatic that it was a man who spoke to him and that he had introduced himself as the doctor he mentioned.  I even suggested to my ex that he should visit the clinic website and check out their personnel section.( I was giving him an out and opportunity to get honest. I wanted him to realize I knew he was lying and correct it. why I have no clue. That is something I kept doing. giving him the opportunity to prove me wrong about him. That's the denial I am sure). He never did. On their site there is a picture of the doc he claimed to see. It is clearly a woman with a woman's first name. He will stick to his guns. Under the absolute most scrutiny and undeniable proof of his lies, he will maintain he is being honest.  He never even mentioned checking the site. even though I pretty much kept telling him to go check it out. Either he doesn't care, is clueless about my inference, or is delusional that this actually occurred.

[clover528]

My ex would constantly tell me about other men who would try to flirt with her or be after her... . Come to find out if this was true it was because she initiated the flirting... . I don't think I ever heard the full truth that wasn't altered in some way. I once asked her if she talked to her exbf one day and she said "no we didn't talk" and I found out she had text him and she said "you asked if we talked, we didn't, we texted" one time she denied every form of communication and was like "no we haven't called talked, or texted all day" come to find out she started emailing... .

I can relate to this lie also. He would say that every woman he was with over the last three years "was flirting with him". He just had to oblige them. They all wanted him and he just couldn't say no. Besides that "you left me". It always comes back to that.

[rj47]

My ex would constantly tell me about other men who would try to flirt with her or be after her.

I suspect this is common. I heard it for many years while paying out a small fortune to enhance her looks. Over time she developed the idea that all women were jealous (and therefore hated her) and all men wanted her. The thing with other women became downright paranoia. When I accidently discovered an online romance with an old HS friend I was mortified at the intensity of her pursuit of the guy. A year later she was still angrily insisting that it was him that wanted her in spite of dozens of e-mails she had sent him, and a handful of non-committal responses from him. Each time I insisted that she spend time with him she would rage on about what a loser he was; or that I never saw any of the racy letters he had sent; or that she did it out of boredom; and, of course that it was entirely my fault. Suggesting that she had degraded herself (and me) terribly would trigger instant rage and sometimes physical violence. I was nevertheless wounded deeply. The experts suggest we're not to take it personal, its an illness. Yes... . life is full of illness, but we attempt to transcend and heal. If we can't do it on our own, we find those that can help. If we're not willing to at least try, what is left for the non-BPD.

Even in the face of overwhelming evidence from their words and deeds, they deny any culpability for their own behavior. A total disconnect.