Removing the fog...

[Winglessfallen]

I have begun forcing myself to realize that I am just floating and allowing everything about this relationship to overtake me.  I feel like I'm basically just going along with it, and I've been around everything so long it's just become part of the landscape, and I have little to no aversion to it, aside from angry blow ups when the stress gets too high.  I've let myself believe a lot of terrible things, and am not balancing at all.  I am also completely unaware of who I was outside of this relationship.  I would like to start getting back to myself, or reevaluating my selfish, even though I'm in this relationship.  I just feel like I've agreed so much with her that I am in deep and if I start speaking my mind, it will begin shaking the already present cracks in the foundation she's been building on me. It's been bearable and much less hostile recently, but the waif is very present at the moment and her attitude is wearing me down. I don't say much at all and am very introverted.  I am mostly just nodding and saying "Uh-huh."

What do I do here?  I am often confused, and don't know what I want to do, think or say.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Want2know]

Can you describe a time when you felt 'whole', possibly prior to your relationship... . what were you like then?  What things did you enjoy doing, or felt proud of about yourself?

[Winglessfallen]

Before the relationship, I was active in music.  It was actually my life, for the most part.  But, as a result of our child, I quit music altogether.  Now I feel like she tells me to keep doing music, but her neediness and jealousy makes it impossible to do, not to mention the fact that we can't seem to stay anywhere.  Nothing feels stable.  I'm a visual artist as well, and these things have made me feel great in the past, but it seems like I can't find any time to do that as well.  It just feels like if I'm not taking care of my son, or working, I'm taking care of her boys or doing chores, or she needs me to spend time with her, and by the end of it, I'm too tired to do anything, so I just go to bed and pass out.  I feel so busy that I can't even get in a shower more than three times a week.

I just feel guilty if I feel happy, because she is so entirely unfulfilled in every aspect of her life, plus she keeps "finding out" she has all these different problems and pains and issues.  I've pretty much gotten to a point that I don't even pay attention to her anymore.  She's the white noise of a roommate that you wish would leave. 

[Want2know]

Since you are here, it seems that you want to take a step towards doing something to improve your life.  That takes work, and you may need to step outside of your comfort zone. 

For example, you may need to think about how to approach your wife and tell her that you are going to take some time to pursue music or art, and that it doesn't mean you love her any less - you know, that kind of conversation, and then just do it.

What do you think?

[Winglessfallen]

Since i met her i've told her my ultimate goal was to start my own business.  It was a big point of conversation for a while.  She also knew the type of art i do, which is light hearted and fun.  She knew tthe type of music i played and listened to, although i do have a very diverse pallette with that.  And it just seems like anytime it comes up recently, its either a waste of time, selfish, egotistical, evil, cause for concern, not my "true calling", i'm not considering her in my plans, it makes her feel like she's alone, etcetera.  We've attended a church and home group who have actively voiced a desire for me to play with them, but I'm not even really considering it, because it would mean i would have to commit to it, and i cant rely on her enough to do anything consistent enough to be able to do that.

So, conversations like that dont really go overly well.  A lot of times end up with her stomping off.

[Rockylove]

So, conversations like that dont really go overly well.  A lot of times end up with her stomping off.

First of all        This must be very difficult for you, but there is hope! 

If her stomping off is the worst that happens, I'd say let her stomp!  We are not effective if we are not taking care of ourselves.  It's always difficult to make changes, but it is the best thing that we can do for ourselves.  It sounds like she's taking advantage of your passive nature.  She can only take advantage of you if you allow it. 

[Winglessfallen]

I understand that me allowing it is the only way it happens, but its incredibly difficult to deal with saying how you feel or expressing something about who you are and having someone get completely irate or appalled.  The other day I made a post on Facebook about listening to a metal band in the car with the windows down, and how i still had the desire to turn it up really loud, but didn't because I still have the drive, but am more mature than I used to be, and it ended with her focusing on just the name of the band (admittedly not the nicest imagery) and telling me that she's afraid that I'm basically being evil and letting evil things into me and it scares her and all this stuff. Or if I mention something about the way we raise our son that is counter to her beliefs she will instantly come back. "Well you don't believe that, right, people just say that because they have to.  They don't know what they're talking about. That's mean."

I've been in this relationship for 2 and a half years, and I'm finding things I genuinely enjoy and love about it, and whichever side of her it is I connect with I'm trying to mitigate around, but its just been really hard to even stop myself, and for a while I simply didn't, and said some terrible things, and had a couple complete breakdowns where I literally sounded crazy, even to myself.  I have hills and valleys on whether or not I want to try, or want to die, but I'm trying to work on it all.

I've posted quite a lot on these boards, mostly in the undecided section, and I am now on the staying board, because this post was moved here by a moderator from the Self Inventory board, and I am thinking if I'm supposed to be on this board or not.  I'm just very confused still and feel as though anything positive about this relationship is in our heads or based on What ifs, and the reality is always an iron hammer across the face.  I definitely need to work on myself, this is what I hear every time I post, but I have always felt like I didn't deserve things, or that I wasn't good enough, and the last few years have not helped.  I don't want my son to grow up with a doormat dad, but I don't know how to get out of this whole mindset.  Everytime I start to feel good about myself, it feels like she catches it as it's hatching and smashes it on the ground by saying I'm being selfish or egotistical or whatever she chooses at that point.  Its a terrible cycle I would really like to break.

[Wrongturn1]

Wingless - I'm a musician also (just a hobbyist really but have played in relatively successful local bands in the past) and have dealt with all the BPD spouse fun that goes with it... . jealousy, accusations, manufactured emergencies, and endless drama.  Have even been accused of cheating upon returning home from church music rehearsal.    So I've been there to a large degree.

I would encourage you to pursue your musical career or hobby to whatever extent you desire, regardless of what your BPD significant other says or does about it.  Your musical activities did not cause her BPD, and you cannot make the BPD go away by abandoning your musical pursuits.  If she has BPD, she's an emotional black hole that cannot be filled, no matter how much of yourself you throw down that hole.  So start doing what you need to do to take care of yourself and recover your identity.

... . oh yeah, and do your best to validate her emotions while not giving in.

[Winglessfallen]

Wrongturn -

Did she claim to support you and want you to do these things?  I just feel like every time she talks she says she's supportive, but when it comes to action, she will support for a second, but then there will be massive "emergencies".  She'll do something so I don't have to worry about it and can have a little time, but then get upset that I'm not appreciative enough, even if I say thank you, and go into a tirade about what she has to push through just to get those things done.  And many times she will go to do something to help, and come back a few minutes later with what is a complete disaster of a situation, mostly when our son wakes up at night, she will go to him for a minute and then bring him down in a panic because he's not going back to sleep.

It seems anytime I ask her to do something more so that our life can run smoother, she's incapable of doing it or if she does do it, she does it once or twice and then another emergency arises that stops the pattern.  It's incredibly frustrating.

[Wrongturn1]

Wingless: Mine tends to express support for my participation far in advance of the actual activity; then a week before the activity claims to have forgotten I told her about it; then when the day arrives, there is often some sort of drama or manufactured emergency which is seemingly intended to keep me home at the last minute. 

For example, awhile back, a musician friend of mine invited me to sit in on his gig that is scheduled for 2 weeks from now.  Twice now, uBPDw has encouraged me to go and play, and I have told her I plan to do that.  When the day of the gig arrives, however, it would be typical based on past events for her to be "sick" with non-verifiable symptoms like nausea or back pain, creating a situation where she would expect me to stay home instead and nurse her and help out with the kids.  However, I don't play this game anymore.  My new strategy is more along the lines of "oh, dear, it must be awful to feel that way... . I hope you're feeling better soon... . I'm heading off to the gig now and will be home in a few hours... . love-ya, bye for now." 

Then when I return home, I am prepared to validate emotions or take a time out and walk away if she becomes abusive.  Putting a stop to my hobbies won't put a stop to her BPD (I have no control over the BPD), so I will proactively take steps to enjoy my hobbies and my life, and I will refuse to let her ruin either.

[Winglessfallen]

That just sounds so mean to me.  I'm saying that from the point of view of knowing it's not, really, but its such a hard thing for me to do.  Especially knowing the times I've said it and the fall out from it.  I mean, just being a nice guy makes that a difficult thing to do, but the fact that I know it's going to end with a two hour lecture makes it even worse. 

Right now, the future holds the wedding of an old friend from college, and she's told me "You should go, I will watch our son." and I am planning on going, but I know its going to come back to bite me.  I can just feel it, and I am incredibly anxious about it. 

Right now dBPDgf is convinced she has fibromyalgia, a chronic pain disorder that meets your wife's standards of non-verifiable symptoms. This is what she harps on when discussing the things she does for me and what she puts through.  Its all new within the last month or so, and it seems like its just the newest piece to play against everyone.  Her biggest issue is she thinks everyone isn't taking her seriously because you can't tell she's sick.  She has accused and insulted her family, my family, her friends, and myself in our conversations for not being willing to only be concerned with her issues.

Every morning I have to pander to her about how hard it is for her to sleep, and wake up, to the point of me being 15 to 20 minutes late every morning when I only work 5 minutes from where I live. It's happened since I can remember, and its always been a different issue.

I'm ranting a little, sorry, its just a sore spot.  And every time I speak out of turn I get the BPD treatment of accusations of selfishness, and hatred.  I really feel like she's turned me into a monster, so I just walk on eggshells to make sure I'm not getting so much pent up contempt that I start lashing out at people who don't deserve it, which I'm not proud to say can, and has happened.

[Wrongturn1]

Fibromyalgia?  How convenient for someone with BPD to be stricken with a non-falsifiable and largely-unexplained medical syndrome... . I'm hoping my uBPDw doesn't read about fibromyalgia b/c she might claim to have it too.  Mine frequently has some kind of non-falsifiable medical complaint going on.  Yesterday she claimed to have pulled/torn a muscle in her left arm; today it has been neck and back pain; she was awake all night last night, unable to sleep - I kid you not. 

Also a quick update: I spoke on the phone with uBPDw about 90 minutes ago and mentioned to her that I had emailed my friend about sitting in on his music gig that's coming up (the gig I mentioned in my prior post).  Her response: "What? did he invite you to sit in with him?"  Well yes he did as a matter of fact, and you already suggested twice that I accept the invitation - once again, I kid you not.

Bummer about the minefield that's waiting for you regarding your old friend's wedding.  Is there any way you could get a babysitter for your son and bring your GF to the wedding with you?  (Of course I realize that the days before the wedding and the actual event would present a host of issues, with your GF probably ranting that: she has nothing to wear; she looks fat in her dress; her acne is acting up; the bride does not look as pretty as she thinks she does; accusing you that you're oogling the bridesmaids; she's worried about your son with the babysitter; she's angry that your old friend is not sufficiently thankful for the wedding present you gave him, etc.)

[Winglessfallen]

Yes, its been an interesting few weeks, quite full of "no one understands what im going through"s and "no one take me seriously"s.  I hope she doesn't.  My gf had a friend who had it and she would tell my gf that it sounded like she had it, but she didn't use it until now. She had severe cramps for mnth and went to the doctor who put her on birth control and told her no tests gave a readon, so they needed to do exploritory surgery.  Havenyt heard a thinfg about it for months.

Im sure thats quite difficult to navigate, like i said, i dont do anything, so its hard to actually know if thats what would happen. 

As for the wedding, beside the fact that i dont want her there because i want to enjoybmyseof and see my firends without feelng like i have to hide myself, its a few hours away, and hes never stayed a night away from usand is still a little too young for it, so she would have to stay.

It will also be the first time extensive distance was between us since we were tgether, so that will surely lead to a lot of meltdowns, i expect.

[Wrongturn1]

Understood about the babysitter situation.  Please do keep us posted on your plans for the wedding, and I would encourage you to make the trip solo if you think it would be fun (further, try not to let your GF's anticipated antics play into your decision process). 

Now for a quick cautionary tale from my life (this is 100% true although I wish it were fiction).  Several years ago, my wife and I received an invitation to a surprise birthday party being thrown for my best friend from college (he was the closest friend I had at the time).  My friend's town was a 5-hour drive from our location, and my wife and I had a 10-month old baby at home, so it was clear that it was an overnight situation and we didn't have a babysitter we could use for that.  I wanted to go see my friend as it had been a long time since our last visit and he had been in bad health of late... . but I was forced to decide whether to make the trip alone and suffer all of the drama that my wife would surely create (I didn't know about BPD yet at that time), or just stay home and avoid the hassle.  I chose to stay home.  Within 2 days after the party, my friend died from complications of the health problems he had been dealing with.  Staying home and missing that last chance to see my friend is a choice I still regret years later. 

[Winglessfallen]

I will try my best to get down there.  Money is an issue as well, but I'm sure that will be maneuverable.  I am quite afraid of what she may do, but I will try not to be influenced by it.

I'm sorry to hear about the sacrifice of seeing your friend one last time.  I wouldn't even know what to do in that situation.  I've never lost anyone overly close, so I can't even begin to think of losing my best friend.  This wedding is one of my best friends in college as well, and another has one coming in the fall. 

Our son is 16 months right now, and she is daily saying how much trouble he is for her.  It is a huge frustration for me, and I don't know what to do with it, because I have much more love for him than her, but I feel locked in what I can say, and I'm afraid of how her contempt will affect him.  She has two of her own that she often times treats in ways I am not comfortable with, and I am afraid of how I will react if she begins treating our mutual son that way.

If I can ask personally, is your uBPDw doing anything about her issues, or are you just sailing her waves and trying to live your life?  My gf is trying to make things better for herself, though not tackling BPD directly, she is getting to some of the issues caused by it, and she knows something is up with her.  There are many moments when she will have an understanding of her problems in the aftershock. I have heard often that it is a really long road and it is very difficult, but it can be improved.  I'm just wondering if you've experienced it.

[Wrongturn1]

Well, 16 months can be a difficult age... . I recall my uBPDw bringing up the idea of putting our son into daycare when he was that age, which did not make sense to me since she was a stay-at-home mom with only one child to care for.  Now that our kids are old enough to start understanding things better, I try in non-judgmental ways to point out to the kids which types of behavior are normal and which ones are not.  Also, I try to help them understand that they are not responsible for other people's emotional states or behaviors (e.g., their mom's).

My wife is relatively high-functioning and occasionally introspective enough to realize that she has issues; however, she is not currently doing anything to seek help.  About 3 years ago, she was on an antidepressant medication prescribed by her general practitioner for a few months, but that did not solve her problems (I did not know about BPD at the time or I might have called her doctor to suggest DBT).  At various other times, I have suggested individual counseling and couples counseling, but she refused both.  Her behavior has improved significantly, however, in the time since I read SWOE and WHINE and started changing my own behavior.

[Winglessfallen]

I've suggested daycare.  She is a SAHM, as well.  Her two boys are school aged, so during the year, she just has our son, but is constantly talking about how stressful and difficult it is to be with him all day. I've suggested daycare so she could work on her own projects, or not be as stressed, but she refuses.  To her and her family, daycare seems in league with the evils of the world. 

I have difficulty discussing their mothers emotions with the boys, in part because I am always frustrated with her and cannot objectively discuss them, and in part because they exude similar qualities, and I often feel overwhelmed with people with her personality.  I also don't know how to tell them something I don't understand myself.  I can't remove myself from the guilt that she puts on me from her actions.  When our son has grown, this will all be an issue, but right now, with her children, I tend to find myself getting similar responses from them I would from her, so, sadly, I tend to become resentful of them, as well.

We've had the therapy discussion, it was actually request I made during a really bad period where I almost left.  Nothing came of it.  A lot of promises of doing something to get better or seek help, and nothing coming from it.  What is WHINE?  So, you're saying that she has improved simply because you've taken steps to pursue your own life?  I'm a little confused about that one... .

[Wrongturn1]

Wow, it must be difficult to have that many people in your life with BP traits. 

WHINE = When Hope is Not Enough, by Bonn Dobbs (lots of examples of how to have a validating conversation - I highly suggest it).

Re: her improvement following my improvement, some folks here could probably explain it much better than I, but the turmoil in a BPD/"non" relationship can be related to the dynamics of the interaction between the BPD and the non. 

For example, the non is codependent and takes full responsibility for the BPD's emotional state and for soothing the BPD's emotions when the BPD is out of control.  As a result, the BPD person eventually has no ability to self-soothe and attributes any negative feelings to the non, which turns an unhealthy situation unhealthier for both parties.  If the non drops the codependent behaviors, the person with BPD is forced to learn to self-soothe and they learn to regulate their emotions to some degree, so the situation becomes healthier.  Hopefully that makes sense as it's the best way I know to explain.  Cheers!

[hanginon]

I realize that this has been a two person conversation so far, but thought I would interject a bit. Hope thats ok. Its just so real to me.  WLF, wow... . I hear your pain and I know exactly what you are going through. I can identify with how she controls and just felt I needed to reach out and say I can identify with you.  You are not alone and above all, this is not your fault and you did nothing to be treated this way.  Its a tough place to be.  My BPDw and I do not have children together and for the most part our children are grown but that overwhelming control she has over you is something else. I know because I have been there myself. I had all sorts of hobbies, friends etc before we married, now I have few to none of both and her only hobby has been me.  :'( We had a big blowup that happened to conincide with a family event that has required our separation geographically... . and through much hostilities, I have managed to keep the separation for two months so far. It takes time to de-program from being under their control.  It is still very much a daily struggle. Most of us struggel with co-dependency issues that to some extent got us where we are now... . and really makes it difficult to make a change.

I do not have answers for your situation but can only say that your situation sounds a lot like mine had gotten and I finally concluded that for my personal well being, I had to make some hard decisions that so far she has had to honor but she has given me the devil for it.  I dont' mean this to sound dramatic but it is akin of selecting to escape to freedom and "live" or allowing yourself to stay in an extremely unhealthy relationship that over time causes you real emotional harm and in a sense you "die" if you cannot set some boundaries for your emotional protection.  There are all sorts of information on this forum about how to "try" and make some progress to at least gain enough freedom to have a marginally comfortable existence. (baby steps) How to work on putting boundaries in place to help protect "you". Right now it seems to me that you are so indoctrinated to her illness that you are vulnerable. I have been there myself and am still there occasionally.  Right now it seems to me that the term "walking on egg shells" is almost an understatement in regards to your situation.

I would suggest looking over some of the material here and at least make an attempt at baby steps to gain some room in your relationship that you can at a minimum exist without fear.

WWT1- you seem to be doing a good job at dealing with your situation. Good for you.

I wish you both the best and remember me in your thoughts and prayers, I will do the same for you.  Just remember, we don't deserve to be treated badly and their illness is not our fault and more importantly we can be a partner to help them but we can't make them better ourselves.

Good luck and hang in there,

Hanginon

[Wrongturn1]

... . allowing yourself to stay in an extremely unhealthy relationship that over time causes you real emotional harm and in a sense you "die" if you cannot set some boundaries for your emotional protection. 

Hanginon: thanks for jumping in with wise counsel.  I really liked your statement about "dying" if we do not set boundaries for our protection.  I definitely "died" earlier in the relationship by allowing myself to become almost totally isolated from friends, family, hobbies, etc.  Now I'm in the process of coming back to life... . it does take time though.

[Winglessfallen]

hanginon - yes, I've been making baby steps towards making boundaries, but I am always guilted into letting them go.  I've never been very good at boundaries.  My story is rife with people taking advantage of me.  It's just incredibly difficult for me, and I'm kind of sick of it.  The confidence I gained over the few years before this relationship was quickly destroyed by her verbal missiles.  I would say my biggest hurdle is that I am literally in the exact life I tried my whole life to avoid.  I am a father before I was ready with a woman I don't love.  We sleep in separate bedrooms and we are more than struggling with finances.  I'm in a job I despise and am completely trapped to move to a career I really desire, the mother of my son has no ability to be self sustaining and hangs on me like a heroin monkey and constantly blames me and our son for her lack of drive. Almost everyday when I come home it's like walking into a funeral.

Wrongturn1 - Its understandable, its like building up her tolerance, which I think has been happening inadvertently with my disconnect.  I have basically been making her deal with things simply by not offering to help with it.  I will admit there is a mix of complete loss of drive and maliciousness driving my lack of help, but it is what it is, and its caused her, at least, to become less dependent on me.  I am blamed less.  But the blame shifts to other people, and she takes no responsibility for what happens.

I have told her many times that therapy is needed, I almost told her yesterday that she needed to go back to the hospital (a subject i will touch on in a second.)  I was in therapy for myself for a while, but her dependency and my lack of backbone made me cancel an appointment the day of and the therapist dropped me for it.  I'm sorry you are driving through this storm as well.  I hate the feeling of codependency in action.  It was something I romanticized when I wasn't in a relationship, and now I so strongly desire my emotional, and physical freedom.  I couldn't imagine being in this for years.  Good for you to be stepping forward toward healing.

She isn't my wife.  This keeps running through my head.  She is my "girlfriend" and its largely just a label.  I have no obligation to her.  I could stand up and walk away.  My son is what keeps me here.  I don't want her to have him and treat him the way she treats her sons, with disproportional blow ups, hissy fits, unregulated and mentally abusive forms of punishment, and complete lack of stability, emotionally and physically.  If I leave, she is completely lost. Or at least that is how it feels.

An update: I told her I wasn't going to the wedding (for financial reasons) and then shut off.  I was obviously emotionally hurt by it, but wouldn't talk to her.  She eventually got me to open up about it and said she would help me get the money to go.  I am waiting to see how it turns out, and am cautious about what will come of this.

Yesterday, she got into an argument with her ex husband over money.  It basically amounted to this.  They were having a casual conversation about their son not being a vegetarian anymore, he said it would be easier for the son to eat out now, because he never has the money to take him to restaurants that have more vegetarian options, and she lectured him about how he doesn't know what its like not to have money, using us as an example and pulling her entire guilt trip armament out on him.  It ended in, what she deemed, a war, and he is now taking her car, which he has let her have since the divorce and currently pays money on through their bankruptcy.  This is the first time it really feels real.  Well, no, its not, but it is definitely sinking back in that there is a big problem here.  I suppose since I was doubting that there was, or thought that she was getting better, I don't know. now I am seriously considering leaving again.  I want my son to live a happy life, and his mom is crazy.  She has spells of being alright, but daily she either ends in a depression or with complaints or fits.  She blames him (16 months old!) for her issues and is completely over burdened by him and his climbing on things.  I don't have eyes there during the day, but I'm sure there is a great deal of disproportional frustration over the little toddler things he does.  

So, yea, I am generally back in a position that I want to leave, but am upset because it would put her children through a lot, leave her homeless and I risk not having my son, not too mention the fact that I have a million issues that didn't get dealt with before he was born.  Bad place.  Not the worst, I suppose, but bad   .