Pathological liar?

[mango_flower]

OK so I've said here before that I always felt she's lied about so much stuff, and things never added up... . but I never had any PROOF.

She always had a (fairly unbelievable) story to cover her tracks. Often I "knew" she was lying but had no proof.

The example that is relevant today is that one day when we were in the throws of happiness, love's young dream, completely inseparable... . I said about going to ride my bike in the park.  She said "I've never ridden a bike, I don't know how".  I was like "WHAT?". I questioned her a few times, like "are you serious?" and she said "Yes, it's not MY fault! I just never had a bike as a kid".  So I thought "ahhh bless her!" and we went to the park and I showed her how to do the gears etc, and she had a go (wobbled lots).  I was proud of her, gave her hugs and kisses and said "Yay! Now you can buy a bike and we can go on bike rides!". She was beaming.

So today I went back into my old email folder to look for an email about a flight I am taking soon.  I saw the folder I'd set up with her name on, and instinctively clicked on it and flicked through a few emails.  Not sure why.

And then one caught my eye. 

Me: I went on a bike ride with X and Y today. Pictures on facebook!

Her: Aw lucky! I love cycling.  It doesn't like me though!  But I'm fitter now than I used to be.

THIS EMAIL WAS SENT 6 MONTHS BEFORE THE TIME I TOOK HER TO THE PARK TO TEACH HER HOW TO RIDE MY BIKE!

My blood ran cold.

Proof, she has lied to me about something so stupid.  Something tiny. 

I think she is a pathological liar.

It scares me.  The email was sent just after we started dating. The cycling in the park happened when we were a firm couple, really happy. 

So whichever one is true, the other was a lie. 

Don't know how to process this... . actually just makes my head spin.

[imstronghere2]

I can relate to your statement "My blood ran cold".  Mine did too when I realized my exwBPD was a pathological liar.   Once that settles in, you realize you can never believe anything they say again.  Harsh, sad and true.  I feel for you.  I look back at the 22 years I spent with mine and she was lying the entire time just to end it by discarding me and our kids like we were nothing more than yesterday's trash.

I've read a lot of your posts.  You seem like you're doing much better but recovery does take a lot of time.  I'm closing in on the 2 year mark when my exwBPD moved out and I'm still working on getting better so be good to yourself, be patient and believe that your life is much, much better now.

Cheers

[mango_flower]

Meh... . I actually just feel sickened and sad over something so silly.

She lied over something trivial.

When we were happy, when times were good.

It was all a lie.

Everything.

I feel like a complete fool.

I naively believed everything she said.

Why would she lie over something like that?  It's so trivial and stupid!  And I fell for it.  Beamed excitedly as she cycled round the park for the "first time", I wonder how she can do something like that?

She loved to share "firsts", I guess in her eyes it bonded us... . but I just now feel sick and dirty.

Urgh.

Imstronghere2 - thank you   It's awful, when you thought you had something so pure and sweet and true - and you told the truth 100%, let them in to your deepest thoughts, and they were just playing a role.  It just strengthens my conviction that she is a lot more broken than I ever could have imagined.  And that is so sad!  But ouch, it hurts... .

[babyducks]

Mango Flower,

Perhaps there is another way to look at this,  people with BPD often suffer cognitive distortions that look very odd to us, the non BPD because we process information quite differently.   

Maybe it was more a message about how helpless she felt to accomplish simple normal things and how much she wanted to rely on you, than it was about the bike?

If I can shift the focus to you for a moment,  what are you going to do today to put this behind you?   Processing is good, rumination not so much so.   What good thing can you do for mango flower today?

Babyducks

[mango_flower]

Hey babyducks

I understand what you're saying... . and I'd agree with you on some things - but these things are mutually exclusive -

"I have never ridden a bike" to "I love cycling, and I've gotten fitter this year"

if that makes sense?  My brain is scrambled!

No idea what I can do for me today - but with all these little things, I am hoping that the fog will lift even more x

[bpdspell]

Well one things for certain... .

You don't have to have BPD to be a pathological liar.

Yes they can lie but so can others. My BPDexbf asked me if I've ever been hit by a man. I told him no and he added that he'd never lay his hands on a woman.    Yep. Put himself on a "I would never" pedestal. Three months later he physically assaulted by ambush. I think anyone who has deeply rooted shame can be capable of deluded themselves, telling white lies or simply not being well versed in full disclosure. Do the lies hurt? Yes. But the lies are a smaller part of the world of delusion and denial they live in.

What hurt more for me is discovering the "crazy" that lives under the mask. It's not like you can throw them in the wash cycle and have them come out mentally ill free... . and what a bummer.

All in all. Discovering that their mental illness renders them inauthentic does sting. Unraveling untruths about them is a part of seeing them for who they really are: unwell people.

It isn't personal. People lie about stupid ___ all the time to make themselves appear more than what they are.

Spell.

[babyducks]

Yeah 'spell,

you took my train of thought where I was trying to get it,  the illness under the mask can make something as black and white as bike riding, loaded, and complicated.

How come we missed seeing the 'crazy', is an interesting question.

Babyducks

[pari]

My ex was pretty good about lies. He excelled at manipulating information. Last year when he was going to his country for a short trip, he told me that he will meet this lady who keeps showing interest in him and asked how much details would I want to know?

So his deal was - He would tell you what he wants to tell you, his version of the story. If you want to know more, you have to ask questions. If you didn't ask questions and later found about out more info and consider it as a lie, it's your fault. His stories always made him look innocent and correct. 

[grad]

it was an opportunity for her to mirror, for you to teach her something and "bond", nothing more.  yes she exaggerated about "loving cycling" or that she's "never done it before", almost everyone has at least tried.

i really feel sorry for you and hope you find the strength to detach from thinking of her, or at least be able to see that what you thought was real wasn't.  it's the disorder, not her, you must read the lessons.  if looking for excuses helps, so be it.

[mango_flower]

Thank you guys - I've been having a think about why this has hit me so hard.

I think it's because I had JUST got myself round to the way of thinking of "Ok, maybe it just wasn't meant to be.  Maybe we're both decent people, we tried. Maybe we were both just not grown up enough to make a relationship work.  Maybe I just need to accept that it wasn't right".

And now, I'm just thinking:

"It was all lies.  I put in 100%, let her into my world, was 100% honest and open and vulnerable.  Always told the truth.  Thought I was building foundations for a healthy future.  And she wasn't. She lied.  It was all lies.   I never once lied to her in our whole relationship.  And I thought she felt the same".

Gosh, it just hurts SO much.  And it scares me, to think that I nearly married this girl... .

She KNEW I valued honesty above EVERYTHING else.  I feel tricked and manipulated.

But I also know she didn't lie to try and hurt me.  It was manipulation to make me love her more, to protect her more and be closer to her.  That makes me feel so desparately sad.

[Ahhhh431]

My ex was pretty good about lies. He excelled at manipulating information. Last year when he was going to his country for a short trip, he told me that he will meet this lady who keeps showing interest in him and asked how much details would I want to know?

So his deal was - He would tell you what he wants to tell you, his version of the story. If you want to know more, you have to ask questions. If you didn't ask questions and later found about out more info and consider it as a lie, it's your fault. His stories always made him look innocent and correct. 

My ex did the same thing. She would tell me the version she thought I would want to her -- never the full truth. One time when I asked her if she had talked to her previous ex that day she said no... . Later to find out they did. I asked her why she lied she said "he called me I didn't call him!" And then another day she said no they hadn't talked and I found out they had been texting... . She said "we didn't talk, we texted!" Then on and on. She would also do things like tell her roommate she was going to the store but then meet up with me along the way. But she could leave the detail about me out as long as she really did to to the store then she wasn't lying

[Lao Tzu]

Dear Mango Flower,

    Two things.  First, I'm new but I understand that pwBPD don't feel they're lying if they are 'adjusting the facts a bit' to fit what they feel.  I guess that's why the border in borderline refers to their being maybe a little psychotic in the sense of not reality-based sometimes. So maybe it wasn't a lie to her. Second, It seems the source of pain for you here isn't the lie anyway.  It's possible that your generalization of the lie to apply to everything she ever said to you is the problem that is hurting you.  I don't know either of you, but I feel pretty strongly that she simply could never have possibly lied about every single thing she ever said. If that's true, then, you know some things she said were lies and some were true.  But you knew that before, didn't you?  Please excuse a new member, but seeing things as just black or white is something they do isn't it?  Before you get teed off at me, consider that you said you were 100% honest.  I know what you meant; you weere talking about important things weren't you?  Well, since you will never know for sure, why don't you make enough room for grey in your heart to say that maybe that could have been (more or less) true for her as well, and let this bike nonsense go.

    I guess there's a third thing (sorry).  When I have spent time intentionally tearing open the psychological wounds by reviewing e-mails, looking at YouTube videos of her, etc. I realized I (my subconscious at least) was trying to figure out how to fix this and get back together with her.  Stopping this, so far, has been possible actually by understanding what my stupid subconscious has actually been seeing in my 'mind's eye' when I see her at work or think about her.  I was seeing her body and mannerisms and hearing her voice, but the feeling I was getting was so intense it kind of had to be something different that my lower brain was perceiving.  I now understand exactly what my subconscious was 'seeing' and that realization seems to have actually removed this obsession.  I won't go into it here, but if you click on my name for old posts I really don't have that many. Its on a thread started by Octoberfest. I'd love to see you stop intentionally tearing into the healing you have already accomplished, and I hope this helps you as you have helped others here so often.

LT

[mango_flower]

Thanks Lao

Lots to think about there!  Nope, I really do mean I was 100% honest. It's my strength yet also my weakness.  E.g. people say "how does my new hair look" and I say "I don't like it short". No tact!  I understand lies to avoid hurting somebody, so I guess I know what you mean about some lies are more harmless, like bike riding.  I think it's just the point that she made SUCH a big deal about how she was the most honest person going, blah blah... . it just hurts.   

[HardTruth]

Hi Mango Flower,

I totally feel for you.  When you first start to see the bigger picture, it's like OMG!  And you go back in your mind about all these other sweet moments that you shared, as well as the fights and the things she may have said to you... .

For me, it was a really important part of the healing process when this happened.  Your awareness is opening up!  You're seeing the story that was on top of the story that you were involved in.  It's shocking, but a sign of moving forward, I think.

When relationships didn't work, or someone I loved didn't "want me", I was so hard on myself.  Getting a bigger picture made me start to realize that some people are more capable of intimacy and a good relationship than others.  That it was less personal than I thought.

My bottom line is that it really takes a while to get to know someone.  It's easy to fall into the throws of love quickly.  It's harder to stand back and be able to give yourself with one hand, and with the other have your eyes open with discrimination.  And then slowly let the relationship evolve and see if they are a trustworthy person.

[causticdork]

LZ -- I hear you loud and clear about the grey areas and the need to not tear into the healing process, but I think I get where Mango was coming from when she posted this.

My ex was a drug addict, and when I first realized something was wrong there were two big lies I knew about:  She lied about being a drug addict (and things associated with her addiction) and she lied about getting fired from her job.  At first I thought that those were the only major lies, and they both made some sense, though that didn't make them okay.  But of course a junkie is going to lie about being a junkie, and it's not hard to understand why someone might not want to admit to a fairly new partner that they had been fired.  Those lies hurt, and they eventually destroyed our relationship, but it was all the little lies that made me realize just how bad it had been.

It's one thing to know that they lied to hide shameful secrets from us.  It's really different when you realize they lied about their past and about a lot of the things you bonded over and about things that had little to no importance.  Suddenly all your good memories are tainted with, "What if that was all made up?" thoughts.  And if you're trying to forgive them and remember the good times and let go of your anger, that can set you back pretty far.  

My ex knew she was lying.  As soon as she knew I had proof of a lie she would admit to it and apologize, but if she knew I wasn't sure she would deny it on her life right up until I had proof.  I know she's sick, and I know that she wasn't lying to purposely hurt me, but it really is a punch in the gut to realize just how much of the relationship was based on lies.  

Mango, I went through that same thing a few months ago, and I fully get the pain that comes with realizing your favorite memories were at least partially "manufactured" by your ex, and thus weren't as real as you thought.  You really should try and avoid going through the old emails, but do remember that there was definitely SOME truth in your relationship.  :)on't try and figure out what was real and what wasn't (you'll drive yourself nuts).  Just accept that she is sicker than you realized and then try and keep moving forward in the healing process.  

[slimmiller]

My ex did the same thing. She would tell me the version she thought I would want to her -- never the full truth. One time when I asked her if she had talked to her previous ex that day she said no... . Later to find out they did. I asked her why she lied she said "he called me I didn't call him!" And then another day she said no they hadn't talked and I found out they had been texting... . She said "we didn't talk, we texted!" Then on and on. She would also do things like tell her roommate she was going to the store but then meet up with me along the way. But she could leave the detail about me out as long as she really did to to the store then she wasn't lying

Oh my God. You must be talking about mine!

She used to hang out with her friend 'Sara' 2 hours away and leave me at home to support and raise the kids. But in reality she was shagging a young foreign exchange student 'Sera' prononced the same. She will swear to this day she never lied to me  .  

mango flower, you are lucky dude! I married mine, allowed her mom (BPD witch) and stepdad (passive aggressive) live with me (Squatter) for four years (free mind you because they have it rough ) had three kids with her and the youngest is 7. Yeah 11 more years of complete mental distortion to deal with in some form

[HardTruth]

Also, people who are pathological liars are REALLY good at it!  I think the reason they're so good is that they are also lying to themselves.  And they do it constantly.  That's why it's hard for us non-path liars to pick up on it.  They are so convincing and it seems so natural and sincere when they untruths or half-truths fall off their tongue.

For us, we have to THINK about lying.  When we lie, we feel a cognitive dissonance that makes us uncomfortable, perhaps.  This results in subtle cues that others pick up on... . where they may feel funny themselves and not trust us, but they don't know why... .

My counselor said that there's basically 3 types of lies.  Direct/outright lies - you know you're lying and you're choosing to do it.  Lies of omission, and lying to yourself.  If the person is doing the latter two, she says, get out of the relationship!  It won't bring you the relationship that you want.  For the first type of lie, it's possible to work on it if the person wants to.

[HardTruth]

I actually think it's good that you went through the emails.  Perhaps something was niggling at your brain saying something isn't quite right here... .   and that was validated when you read those old emails about loving cycling. 

Sometimes our intuition is telling us something, but our "rational" brain is telling us something different - " you should trust her"  "you're too suspicious"  - whatever.  So we go against our intuition, and find out later that we made a mistake sometimes!

[Lao Tzu]

     Great comments and excellent understanding from Causticdork and HardTruth!  I agree and appreciate the insight.  By the way Caustic, you don't seem at all caustic and certainly aren't a dork; perhaps "Snackrelatedmishap", though hilarious, doesn't fully describe you either but come on already.  I truly hope no part of you thinks caustic dork is a good way to summarize you. If someone else characterized you that way they're kind of a dork?

    While I'm on the subject, apparently, of meaningless points: Hey Slim, Mango ain't a dude!  :)udette maybe, but that's a little too '70s even for me. Ah, I feel so much better now!

LT, Chairman, Dept of Minutiae

[causticdork]

Ha! My name is from an old conversation I had with a friend about my dark and twisted sense of humor.  I said I worried sometimes that I might cross the line from snarky to caustic, and she told me I was such a dork that even when I was slightly caustic I was too harmless to really come off that way. 

So yes, I am a dork, but I have no problem with that and don't consider it a negative.  I'm not nearly as dark and twisted as I used to be, and I rarely cross that line anymore, but I thought it was a fun combination of descriptors.  Plus when I signed up I needed a name that I wasn't using for anything else because my ex and I were still together and I didn't want her finding this site and reading what I'd said about her (back when I was on the Staying Board and still cared if she freaked out at me). 

Okay, back on topic... .   I think everyone here has offered layers of insight and different perspectives on the OP, and that's a truly excellent thing.  That's exactly what makes this board awesome.  Shared experiences and different perspectives.

[mango_flower]

The last few posts have really cheered me up 

Thank you Lao for pointing out I am not a man 

It's one thing to know that they lied to hide shameful secrets from us.  It's really different when you realize they lied about their past and about a lot of the things you bonded over and about things that had little to no importance.  Suddenly all your good memories are tainted with, "What if that was all made up?" thoughts.  And if you're trying to forgive them and remember the good times and let go of your anger, that can set you back pretty far. 

Caustic's quote, above, is EXACTLY how I am feeling, but struggled to summarise (thanks Caustic!).  Yes, it's like all the small moments we shared, that I was so happy in, truly being in love for the first time, all feel manufactured.  The reason they were so special was because I truly thought we were sharing those moments together, but we actually weren't... . we were on different planets, and it was just me who thought we were sharing them.  It hurts really badly.

I'm not even sure why I looked at those emails, I genuinely went into my old email account for something else, and impulsively clicked on the folder.  I think maybe I was testing the waters, to see if it still hurt to see old emails - and then that one just jumped out at me when I read it.

Agree - there is such a range of insight here, so many different perspectives, and I appreciate them all!  Thanks everyone who responded, my brain is scrambled and this will take time to process, but I know I'll get there 

[Tired68]

Yep My ex lied and lied and I even gave her the opportunity to tell me the truth, I said just be a woman and tell me the truth so I could have closure, she said ' WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR, WOULD THAT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER" I said no I just want the truth (this is after i found a text) she again said there is nothing going on. I said ok can you come downstairs with me I have to show you something, and on my laptop was a picture of her and this guy that she took to her sisters wedding that I was suppose to go to. when she came down stairs I said look at the computer what is that. she looked like a ghost , and didn't know what to say. she was lying before the wedding and after, pretending the whole time, even while she was out of town at her sisters helping her with last minute stuff she was texting me and calling me and telling me how much she loved me while she knew he was coming. the reason i didn't go was she started a fight with me before the wedding and brought up stuff that happened over a year ago and I was just like forget it , i am not going. so there you have it... . once a liar always a liar. I am devastated and hurt beyond words, we got married last year and got a house less then a year ago that is in her name and she just took some things and left and i have not seen or heard from her since june 7th. oh and she hasn't given me any money for the mortgage we missed june and now july is coming. nothing is in my name here, but she has screwed me beyond words. I left a townhome that was in my name to get a bigger house for all of our dogs and when her family came they would have a room to sleep. well now my townhouse in in short sale and my credit is declining so i dont know what i am gonna do... . 7 years wasted!

[mango_flower]

Oh Tired... .

How awful.  I know where you are at right now, trust me, I have been there.  My ex did the same, walked out leaving me stuck in a 6 month rental contract plus bills, which I couldn't cover... . I got deeper and deeper into debt.  She also owes me thousands, which is still on my credit card and of course I haven't seen a penny... . I have since found out she owes companies thousands too!  And there was me thinking she was so honest and reliable... . ha!

Thats what hurts the most, isn't it - when you put in 100% and they lie and cheat you - then I see the people here on this board and it reminds me that there are some amazing people out there, and we just ended up with the wrong ones!  I hope that in a few years this will all be a distant memory - we'll all be happy in life, and "fixed" and our BPD exes will sadly more than likely still be running round lying, stealing, cheating and living miserable existences... . thank goodness we don't have BPD, that is all I can say.  Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy! x

[cult]

My ex lies, too, but she lies by omission mostly. She's capable of smiling to your face while secretly seething with contempt inside. It chills me to think of how many times she probably did this with me, while all the while I believed her to be sincere. She is a very dishonest person. Now that she's moving across the country, she's got nothing to lose/hide/protect anymore and she's showing her true colors. I had two cats when we began our relationship, and they lived until 2007 and 2010, respectively (ex and I got together in 2002). She told me the other day that she was "waiting for them to die" the entire time. In retrospect I am lucky she never tried to hurt or kill them. She had plenty of opportunity to do so. It just goes on and on. I'm still in shock from the breakup and I still love her but I know that eventually, I will be forced to realize just how deceitful and cruel she was. 

[mango_flower]

That sent the shivers through me, Cult!  How awful... . I am fairly sure my ex was the same (not with animals) in the fact that she'd often be smiling and pretending things were great, and I was blissfully unaware - but really her head was running amok.  A lot of accusations and insults got thrown my way once we split - as you say, when they have nothing left to lose. 

That's the worst feeling, realising that nothing was as it seemed!

x

[danley]

My ex for some reason was very bluntly honest with me. Of course I prefer this over lies but sometimes blunt can be offensive.  My ex did however do the ambiguous route. Many times he'd be honest but not tell the truth. Example: If I asked him what he did with his friends, he'd say he went to the bar and had drinks. But he'd leave out the part about the bar being a strip bar. This example didn't really happen but this is what I mean by ambiguous. Or he would answer questions but in a roundabout way.

My ex wasn't a pathological liar but he was No angel. Granted everyone can be ambiguous in life. Whenever he was ambiguous I'd ask the question in a different way or ask more questions. He eventually would say everything but it made me wonder WHY he even felt he needed to be ambiguous especially since a lot of times the answer wasn't anything I'd get upset over. I'd be more upset in the fact that he was basically hiding trivial info.

[LosingIt2]

She didn't mean that when she said she likes cycling but it doesn't like her that in other words she's not very good at it? And the fact that she is fitter now she might feel more qualified to cycle more? I don't know, that's how I read it.

[clover528]

I posted about the lies too. My ex has lied so much it is unreal. I never knew about his home being in foreclosure, his drug addiction, his sex addiction, his abuse in past relationships, and the list goes on and on. I understand so well the feeling of "it was all fake and nothing honest". It was devastating when i began to realize what was really happening. I too gave him a million opportunities to be honest and truthful. I kept begging him to just tell me the truth and we could work through it. He never would. No matter how i tried to encourage him and love him through the craziness, nothing helped. he would pull away when we got close or had any moments where i was beginning to trust him. It took a long time to leave denial and move to what was real. I am still struggling with that one. This board really helps with so much experience from others and insight shared.

[Katsky]

A couple of weeks ago I was talking to a friend and told him this story about pwBPD (from three years ago). pwBPD had been saying to me that she hadn't been honest speaking to a number of people. So, I said, "look, why do you lie so much?". She said, "To get what I want". Still, she also sometimes apologised for doing it, and said she wasn't truthful, to prevent people finding out things, which might have been painful for other person to know (e.g., family). And, on other occasions, she said something happened that definitely didn't happen, and I just thought, she's just not connected to reality. In May, she began stalking me and I told her to stop. She then went to the police and said things had happened, but which didn't happen.

I'm not sure if this was pathological lying. There is pathology, yes. There is considerable manipulativeness too. But it's not always lying. Sometimes intentional, yes; sometimes intentional but with goodwill behind it (lying by omission to protect family); sometimes unintentional and delusional.

[letmeout]

My ex was a pathological liar too, lie right in front of you while caught in the act even, and then swear you did not see what you saw. The spooky thing? He really believed his own lies! It never failed to amaze me.

He could not tell the truth, no matter how small or insignificant. His parents said he been that way from toddler hood.