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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Closure, not important for pwBPD?  (Read 1555 times)
stop2think
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« on: June 30, 2013, 05:35:03 PM »

I read another post on 'Closure', and it got me thinking - as NO CLOSURE surely makes healing a bit hard.

What would 'Closure' be when the pwPD breaks up with you?

- Would it be enough for him/her to say they don't any longer think the r/s will work or 'love' is not important anymore?

- Would it be enough for him/her to cite reasons, even if that makes no sense to us?

- Would it be be enough for them to share the blame for the failure of the r/s, but still sound like they hold us 'more' responsible for his actions/behavior?

- Would it be enough for him/her to say an empty 'sorry' for hurting or abusing?

Your views would be quite very much helpful and appreciated.
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2013, 05:43:41 PM »

In my case I had to give myself closure, it was a one way street. It was rough to say the least. I first had to come to terms that she will never be held accountable for stomping all over my heart.

My exBPD did not, absolutely did not take any blame. I got the "you knew I was crazy its your fault you're hurt you stayed". From the many stories I've heard they never take the blame or even acknowledge what they have done. I've read on here that it's like someone crashing into you, leaving the car and yourself a wreck, and they don't care to even look back and see what they've done.  I posted about no closure on here just to see the opinions of others since I don't have anyone to really talk about BPD and actually get what I'm saying.
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bpdspell
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2013, 06:08:26 PM »

I read another post on 'Closure', and it got me thinking - as NO CLOSURE surely makes healing a bit hard.

What would 'Closure' be when the pwPD breaks up with you?

- Would it be enough for him/her to say they don't any longer think the r/s will work or 'love' is not important anymore?

- Would it be enough for him/her to cite reasons, even if that makes no sense to us?

- Would it be be enough for them to share the blame for the failure of the r/s, but still sound like they hold us 'more' responsible for his actions/behavior?

- Would it be enough for him/her to say an empty 'sorry' for hurting or abusing?

Your views would be quite very much helpful and appreciated.

A mentally ill person does not have the power and authority to give us the peace of mind that we desire.  BPD's are short sighted at the impact of their actions and their narcissism keeps them from feeling the impact of their hurt on others. Do they know they hurt others? A resounding more yes than no. But are they connected to the impact of our pain? No. We want them to be adults who are capable of making amends and being accountable but their BPD will always block insight into why they behave the way they do.

My ex apologized profusely but his words were perfunctory, mechanical and disconnected to any real insight on his part. That's the sickness of BPD. They live on a stunted one way street of blame, victimhood, abandonment pain, shame, and self-torture. Owning inner ugly hurts. So in their child minds it makes sense to simply blame others.

Many of us ":)ream" of true closure from them but this is fantasy thinking. If they were capable of giving us validation they wouldn't be mentally ill. When they abandon us it isn't about "not caring about closure" it's about them running away from looking into their own broken mirrors.

Spell
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xenia

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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2013, 06:24:25 PM »

My friend would never, ever apologize for anything. I feel that in her case, shame definitely played a huge role. I could tell by her actions that she was remorseful, but she'd never verbalize it to me. Her mode was to pretend things never happened. If she snapped at me for no reason, I'd let her know that I wasn't going to take it and walk away: "Hey friend, I'll have to talk to you later. Have a great day!" Knowing what i know now I'm sure the boundary made her feel awful, but I needed to protect myself. Oftentimes she'd "break the ice" by making random conversation, and I began to recognize it has her way of saying sorry (my grandmother was the same way. she'd do something nice for you instead of apologizing). I also noticed that my friend didn't take compliments well. She'd rarely acknowledge any compliment I gave her. I wasn't looking for a "thank you", but I noticed she ignored those too. I figured it was due to low self-esteem.

Even though she hurt me, and even though there are times I am angry with the things she does, I have a lot of love and compassion for my friend because I know she has a hard time living in her skin.
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winston72
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 12:14:44 AM »

Hey Deleted... . this is such a classic quote, "My exBPD did not, absolutely did not take any blame. I got the "you knew I was crazy its your fault you're hurt you stayed"

I heard a variation of this line many times.  One that I also heard was, "I played you, but you wanted to be played." 

Blame the victim.  Acknowledge their behavior, but take no real responsibility for its meaning. 
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Octoberfest
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2013, 12:32:47 AM »

A mentally ill person does not have the power and authority to give us the peace of mind that we desire.  BPD's are short sighted at the impact of their actions and their narcissism keeps them from feeling the impact of their hurt on others. Do they know they hurt others? A resounding more yes than no. But are they connected to the impact of our pain? No. We want them to be adults who are capable of making amends and being accountable but their BPD will always block insight into why they behave the way they do.

My ex apologized profusely but his words were perfunctory, mechanical and disconnected to any real insight on his part. That's the sickness of BPD. They live on a stunted one way street of blame, victimhood, abandonment pain, shame, and self-torture. Owning inner ugly hurts. So in their child minds it makes sense to simply blame others.

Many of us ":)ream" of true closure from them but this is fantasy thinking. If they were capable of giving us validation they wouldn't be mentally ill. When they abandon us it isn't about "not caring about closure" it's about them running away from looking into their own broken mirrors.

Spell

INCREDIBLY insightful words.  Awesome.

My BPDex also apologized... . For "not giving me the respect I deserved".  She said, "forget about me and move on. Dont let it keep you from loving. you are a much better person than she could ever hope to be, as sad as that is to say, but we both know its true. Go be that amazing man that you are.  Can you do that for me?"

I reread that today... . I had saved it as well as one or two other messages from her in my phone.  Those and a birthday card were all i really had left of her.  I finally went and deleted them and her number today.  I have it memorized, but I am hoping that will fade.

I think you are right, they might know what they do is wrong and can see it hurts people, but they don't have the capacity to appreciate it.  They are so caught up trying to avoid their own pain that they dont have a very good handle on pain that they may cause others.

I believe what she said... . It wasn't a bid to get me back.  Maybe it just hurts that she self soothes by running off into a new relationship not even a day after we split (because she was dating him too... . ).


I dont know.  It hurts to think about her still.  Not because I want her back... . just the injustice of it.  That I poured my heart into someone for naught.
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 01:10:33 AM »

[/quote]
My ex apologized profusely but his words were perfunctory, mechanical and disconnected to any real insight on his part. That's the sickness of BPD. They live on a stunted one way street of blame, victimhood, abandonment pain, shame, and self-torture. Owning inner ugly hurts. So in their child minds it makes sense to simply blame others.

Many of us ":)ream" of true closure from them but this is fantasy thinking. If they were capable of giving us validation they wouldn't be mentally ill. When they abandon us it isn't about "not caring about closure" it's about them running away from looking into their own broken mirrors.

Spell[/quote]
I too noticed how my ex tended to "apologise" when I pointed out my hurt on occasions. The apology never came immediately (as if from a recognition of the hurt caused) but was often in the form of a voice mail and given in a dead unemotional voice. Likewise, those received via email seemed mechanical in style and lacking any insight from recognition or genuine feeling. These displays so confused me at the time and obviously further increased my incomprehension, yet like so many here, I somehow managed to internalise them and accept such bizarre behaviour for so long. After we split I found the Martha Stout book "The Sociopath Next Door" and then read Robert Hare`s "Without Conscience" which illustrated to me how people who lack an empathetic nature often "get by" by mimicking empathetic actions and statements. Further study lead me here where a more detailed account particularly relating to BPD was to be found. I too was refused closure by my ex, but the combination of study and reflection has lead me quite a way towards finding a sort of peace. I hope my progress (and that of all here) can be maintained   
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GlennT
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 02:17:39 AM »

Yes, they mimic empathetic words and statements very well indeed. They run by instinct, like children, and seem to prefer to use selective recall from a previous script. There are many nurses who have this disorder, and run this empathetic script too. It is as if they are acting out a drama, instead of real life and love, and we get drawn into it, and believe them. There are therapists who believe that emotional trauma, going back as far as one years old, can induce emotional disassociative sensory switches/defense mechanisms in them to flip, at a cellular level, throughout an entire life, never being able to really give or understand closure .  
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Billa
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 07:13:41 AM »

- Would it be enough for him/her to say they don't any longer think the r/s will work or 'love' is not important anymore?

well,  that's what my exBPDBf sad, that "we know" our r/s could not work anylonger. And that happened after I told him that I couldn't bear his open cheaing on me anymore. He was cheating on me openly, just naively trying to hide it behind a very absurd "we're just good friends"-  The story I should have believed to was: "we're just good friends and I'm going away with her for three days. You must believe we're just friends and give me positive reinforce about it, yes, though, you can't come with us, 'cause I want to be free to have a chat with a friend without you wanting to be present"- Or, "we're just good friends (but I spend all my spare time with her). Do you want me to spend the weekend with you? No, I'm sorry, I want to have some time alone" Than she would write on Fb "what a wonderful day I had (with him... . ) and in thirty-second-time he would click on the "like button"... .

And as I did not give him the positive feedback he required from me (that is to say, I didn't pretend I believed his crap)  and dared to say"stop hurting me", things couldn't work in our r/s... .
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delusionalxox
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 10:09:39 AM »

I was about to answer this saying I never got an apology from BPD/NPD ex, not even mechanical ones, but that's not quite true. I got a long, non-specific one the week before he devalued and finally discarded me for the last time.

It was really quite beautiful.

'I meant to say that I am sorry not only I could not make you feel better but instead, even worse.

I wish you could remember that I think you are a very loyal person with richness of intelligence, solid values and good feelings. Please try to remember these words instead of the many wrong ones I told you. Some of those were said in the attempt of helping you (?), although by the impact of little pains. Some others were moved by the deep confusion in which I was casted by certain words or attitudes of yours towards me, impacting hardly on my fragile persona. I understand that you never mean any harm. I usually do a bit too late... . My issues are deep and variated. Some of these do not depend on me, some others I fight constantly with variable, often little, success.

My very little capacity to understand other people's pain and problems (which weirdly seems to work in some cases very well and not at all in others) did not help me to estimate properly your horrible subjective/objective condition. You are much more than a very decent person.

I hope that you will continue to be in my life. I understand that our incompatibility is evident and I hope that either we will be able to solve it or we will remain good friends. I would suffer very much from loosing you entirely and my life would become cheaper. While the top priority for both of us has clearly to be survival with all that this may require - and at the rate of these days we would risk it seriously - my other priority is to have you in my life in a way or another. I hope vm that the two priorities can be compatible for both of us.

With all my heart, sorry.'

2 weeks later I had been completely cut off and told that the cutting off was all entirely down to me, I was too destructive and would just do it 'again and again and again'. This because I had asked why his emails had gone down to one curt line after I said (nicely) that I didn't think we should chat about sex so much any more as we were now trying to be friends. I got sent a wish for 'serenity in your liffe without me and I wish you to stop hating'.

So the thing is, I think that even their most heartfelt apologies can be if not fake, completely ephemeral.

Perhaps it is an object constancy thing, or even a sort of prediction that they are about to discard you (that's how I now read the email above; he didn't mean the things he was promising; I still had to behave like a perfect long distance shag buddy and allow him  to walk all over me by keeping money etc I had unwillingly lent him).

It's very tough, to have your deepest emotions played with and to realise that playing was exactly what the person was doing.

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Billa
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 06:37:35 AM »

I was about to answer this saying I never got an apology from BPD/NPD ex, not even mechanical ones, but that's not quite true. I got a long, non-specific one the week before he devalued and finally discarded me for the last time.

"I hope that you will continue to be in my life.

my other priority is to have you in my life in a way or another. I hope vm that the two priorities can be compatible for both of us.

With all my heart, sorry.'"

2 weeks later I had been completely cut off and told that the cutting off

So the thing is, I think that even their most heartfelt apologies can be if not fake, completely ephemeral.

Perhaps it is an object constancy thing, or even a sort of prediction that they are about to discard you (that's how I now read the email above; he didn't mean the things he was promising; I still had to behave like a perfect long distance shag buddy and allow him  to walk all over me by keeping money etc I had unwillingly lent him).

It's very tough, to have your deepest emotions played with and to realise that playing was exactly what the person was doing.

Servalan: january 10th: HE:  "You're a wonderful person, and I miss you and the love you're giving me. if I lose it, I'll have to put you in the list of the precious things I've wasted in my life" (He was convinced I was going to leave him, while I was just bewildered with his behaviour.)

january 23rd:

HE: "I was thinking to a list of people from whom I want to stay apart"

ME: "I dont't think there are reasons for me to be included in it"

HE: "some reason could exist, if the rumours about you talking about a 'heavy atmosphere' at our table the night of the party with people calling my exGF a vulture and expressing you solidarity are true" (all pure invention, I said nothing to the other people, they didn't tell anything to me. A break-up followed, ten days of pure hell).
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delusionalxox
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2013, 06:58:22 AM »

'You're a wonderful person, and I miss you and the love you're giving me. if I lose it, I'll have to put you in the list of the precious things I've wasted in my life" (He was convinced I was going to leave him, while I was just bewildered with his behaviour.) '

God Billa... . that's eerie... . the exact same expression... . and I guess the ephemeral feeling they have (the truth!) that they have thrown away something that could have been good, abused someone who loved them.

I had accepted his downgrading of the relationship to 'friends' (with sex of course :-0) but we were not going to see eachother much, he was planning to go abroad, etc. I wasn't going to be travelling over to bloody Asia for the odd hookup with someone who wasn't even prepared to commit to me after I had spent fortunes on him and forgiven him appalling behaviour. But I still held on to the 'troubled soulmates' feeling. After all  his beautiful promises I believed there could be some distant future for us, perhaps just as lifelong friends.

But noo. Immediate switching from his probably unbearable feelings of guilt and inadequacy meant that I had to be ditched the minute I started to show needs or that I was human.
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Billa
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 07:30:35 AM »

Immediate switching from his probably unbearable feelings of guilt and inadequacy meant that I had to be ditched the minute I started to show needs or that I was human.

yes, we're human, and we were not supposed to be. We should have been their dream come true, instead. That is to say, someone who only exists to fulfil their needs, someone who must be around when they want it and should immediately disappear whenever they wish to do, see, date someone else. Ready to be there again, at their request. and in the meantime? This is not they're problem!
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