Husband seeing Daughter Tomorrow and Not sure What to Expect

[Verbena]

We have seen our DD28 twice since March 29, the day she found out I had talked to her best friend about her BPD issues and out-of-control behavior.  Both of those times did not go so well, and that is putting it mildly.  My husband contacted her about meeting for lunch about three weeks ago, and she said she'd get back to him but didn't.  Then twice DD initiated a lunch meeting but either cancelled or failed to get back to him to set a time and place.  Now, once again, they are supposed to meet for lunch.  Tomorrow.  He is dreading it and I don't blame him. 

He knows it is not reasonable to expect that she won't want to talk about all this mess (whole story is under a post called "Guilt" that I made when I first found this site), but I made it clear in my last communication with her (via e-mail) that everything had been said by everybody over and over and that I wasn't going to keep going in circles. She maintains there is nothing wrong with her and that she has no issues.  She has made this all about me and my betrayal and whether or not she can ever forgive me.  I have apologized and validated and apologized and validated some more until I can't say anything else.  Nothing is going to change whether she forgives me or not--if she doesn't get some help. 

DD's husband used a post on FB my son made as a venue to go after the former best friend with whom I shared my concerns for my DD.  It was way out of line.  His behavior over all of this is way out of line.  He is taking defending my daughter, his new wife, to the extreme.  My husband and I believe that when our son deleted the entire post and SIL's comments, this angered both DD and SIL.  That would explain why when our son FB messaged both his sister and new brother-in-law that he had some great news about a job overseas, they completely ignored it.  This is a big deal to our son.  He will be leaving for China mid-August and will be gone for two years.  I can't tell my 23-year old son what to do concerning his sister, but I know he is hurt.  He will be coming home from England in two days and living with us until he leaves for China.  I don't think he should go to his sister's and BIL's house while he's here if they don't make a move toward him.  Any thoughts on any of this? 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

Hi Verbena,

Good to see you back. This is a difficult situation you find yourself in. I would like to be able to be direct and clear cut, but I am unsure if I can. So, this is what I think... .

1) your son is an adult, let him make his own decisions and try not to take on board his difficulties with his sister. As hard as it is, I believe it is in everyone's best interest for you to not involve yourself in your children's issues any more. You have done all you could to raise them, now it is in their hands. If he asks your advice, I suggest you say, 'I am not comfortable giving it.' In this situation you need to practice your validation skills and just listen.

2) With your husband's visit/lunch, it is similar advice too. While you and your dh have to be on the same page, you are not accountable for what he does and doesn't do. If he is like most, he hasn't come to grips with how to validate your dd carefully. I would expect that the conversation may not go well. I would be wary of your dd trying to 'split' you as a couple (eg 'you are not the real problem dad, mum is the mean one' type of thing).

3) Your dd's husband is doing what he thinks is right. He would believe the version of events she has told him... . all the past history of how badly treated she has been. While he is important to the story, the real issue is your daughter and your relationship with her.

  Nothing is going to change whether she forgives me or not--if she doesn't get some help. 

She cannot fix her BPD without therapeutic help, that's right. However, it is possible for you to improve your relationship with her. Have you any thoughts on how to do that?

Cheers,

Vivek    

[Verbena]

Vivek ,  thanks for your response.  These are my thoughts regarding your points... .

1.  I want to make the most of the six weeks or so that I have with my son before he goes to China for two years.  He's already been in England for a year with only two visits home, so this time is precious.  He is very mature, thinks very logically, and will do what he feels is right.  I wasn't planning on giving him any advice about reaching out to her given the circumstances, but if he does ask me, your suggestion of what to say is a good one. 

2.  My husband and I are on the same page with DD--for the most part--and he is well aware of the splitting behavior and the blame game she plays. He's better at listening than talking, and that works for DD because she typically won't let anyone else speak much. 

3. He's actually more disgusted with DD's husband's behavior over all of this.  He expected DD to react the way she has (telling everyone and their brother her side of the story, getting people on her side, not accepting any responsibility for her behavior, etc.), but he didn't expect our new SIL to go so overboard and be so disrespectful to us during one of the two visits we have had since March 29.  SIL has told us both he is shocked at our behavior as parents and that his parents would not be acting the way we are.  That cut deep for my husband.

As for improving my relationship with my daughter, right now there is no relationship.  If she can get past this, maybe there can be again.  I had already begun detaching from her a few months prior to her finding out her friend and I had discussed our concerns for her, and she was aware of that.  She doesn't understand why I would need to detach, of course, even though I told her the reasons--that I simply couldn't take the chaos and drama anymore, that I had reached my limit.  If we can get to a point of at least being civil, I plan to work on listening to her more and not giving my opinion unless she asks for it.  Even then, I hesitate to say anything she might not want to hear because I know what happens when I do. 

I do know that I am not going to continue apologizing for what happened or allow her to punish me for it forever.  What's done is done, and I cannot change it.  I feel like the ball is in her court.  If she can move on from it, then I am willing to also. 

[vivekananda]

Hi Verbena,

You know how there is a genetic link to BPD right? Well it seems that like attracts like also, at least that's how it appears from the discussions here on the boards. So, your SIL, not only would believe all the distortions that you dd has told him and seen the effect of that hurt on her, he likely has troubles of his own with his emotions. I say this not to excuse his behaviour but to let you know there may be another way to see it.

I also heard this said recently, not sure if I can phrase it properly, but it goes like: No one else has control over my feelings, no-one can make me feel anything unless I allow it. When it is put like that, we can see that the hurt we feel is our responsibility, it is how we respond to difficulties like this. The other person doesn't do it to us, it is what we allow ourselves to feel. This might sound deeply philosophical or even unreasonable, when we do hurt so badly but please bear with me while I try to make sense for you.

Before I do, I thought I should let you know that my dd32 believes she has been subjected to a lifetime of abuse at my hands while dh stood by and let it happen. She has spoken with me on 4 occasions over coffee for about an hour in a year. Three times it has been amiable, once she let rip with anger like the old days in full view of the open and busy street we were in. But at least those three occasions were good experiences when I was able to begin to repair our relationship. I used to feel like you do, deeply hurt, angry and so, so sad but I haven't  really felt so down since I have learnt a few things here.

I do know that I am not going to continue apologizing for what happened or allow her to punish me for it forever.  What's done is done, and I cannot change it.  I feel like the ball is in her court.  If she can move on from it, then I am willing to also. 

An apology needs to be given only once but there is a 'formula' to an apology. If you said, 'I am sorry, but... . ' well, I think we know that isn't quite an apology. I don't think you need to try to apologise any more for talking to her friend either. You have tried and done your best. And perhaps the ball is in her court, but if there is the chance of grandchildren, you might want to initiate contact for their sake... . I don't think you can put conditions on a relationship with your dd. When you say, if she moves on, then I will, I think that is unrealistic. Without therapeutic intervention, it is unlikely she will move on, and I think it will always stick to you too, unless you also do something about it yourself.

... . I simply couldn't take the chaos and drama anymore, that I had reached my limit.  If we can get to a point of at least being civil, I plan to work on listening to her more and not giving my opinion unless she asks for it.  Even then, I hesitate to say anything she might not want to hear because I know what happens when I do. 

   

That you can take no more is so understandable. For the first 8 mths of n/c with my dd, as I was processing my hurt, I was also immersed in learning what I could to make sure that I didn't experience that sort of thing ever again. So when she had her last meltdown with me in the street, I was upset for a bit, but got over it rather quickly.

Before I go on and write a long response... . do you want to know how I came out of that really ugly angry, sad and hurt place? Can you learn from my experience?

See, I believe you can't keep on doing the same sort of thing and expect a different result.

Cheers,

Vivek      

[pessim-optimist]

Hi Verbena,

so sorry you are going through this not only with your dd, but also the sil... .    

Your sil's attack and harsh judgement must hurt... . Do you think that in time, you being yourselves and acting like yourselves, rather than reacting to his accusations, might bring about more peace?

I understand that you do not want to go back to go on and on in circles. That might be a very good boundary to stick to - gently but firmly. Can you think of a way to rephrase what she might be saying and reply with validation and gently re-directing the conversation toward the future?

Of course that is if or when she takes you up on renewal of r/s. But I would be hopeful... . from my observation (not any scientific find, just IMHO), it seems to me that female pwBPD sooner or later get back in touch - even if it is to rant over again, or attack, or demand apology, or request because they are in need... .

[Verbena]

Vivek ,

You've given me a lot to think about.  I truly do not think my SIL has any emotional problems of his own, but I do think he is dancing as fast as he can to make her happy.  I have seen him do that before this current crisis just as I have seen her rage on him for no reason whatsoever in my house before she moved out.  I believe that he is well aware of her issues but cannot admit anything is wrong because that reflects on his own judgment to marry her.  But who knows for sure.

My husband made the same point tonight  about saying "I'm sorry, but... . "   In fact, at their lunch meeting today, DD basically said the same thing.  She does not believe that I am sorry because I tried to explain WHY I talked to her friend.  She said I was trying to justify what I did.  Well, that's true.  If I hadn't had serious concerns for my daughter's behavior, I wouldn't have said anything to her friend because there wouldn't have been anything to say.  :)D does not believe that either I or the friend talked about her because we loved her and were concerned.  She believes we did it to hurt her.  She went on and on about how evil her friend is and how horrible I was to talk to her and how I am the one with the problem.  That is a new defense that I heard for the first time recently.  She is now saying I have BPD and possibly other personality disorders, too.

DD told her daddy today at lunch that she has been to a counselor to discuss this issue between her and me.  I should be glad she went to talk to someone but unless she was honest about her own behavior, I don't know how much she can benefit from it.  Apparently, she told the counselor her problem is me, that nothing is wrong with her except that her mother has tried to convince her she needs help when she doesn't.  The raging, the verbal abuse, the physical attacks, the conflicts with so many people... . I can't imagine she mentioned any of that.  

DD made a big issue of the fact that I have not tried to contact her. I actually have--an e-mail on May 15 and a text on her birthday.  I haven't suggested we meet to talk because I fear how that will go--just like the lunch meeting today with her daddy when she cried and got so loud they had to leave the restaurant. I see your point that it is unrealistic to say that I will move on if she will, but what more can I say?  :)o I go to her knowing that she is still in the same place of anger and unforgivness and no willingness to address her behavior that led me to talk to her friend?  That's why I haven't.  

Thank you again for your comments.  I really don't know what to do next.

[Rapt Reader]

Hi, Verbena  

My D-I-L is (I believe) undiagnosed BPD, and my S34 has traits, like your S-I-L, because of being with her for the last 10 years or so... . I've had tangles with them in the past, dealing off and on with my D-I-L's rages, and my S34 backing her up to the hilt. Which, I guess, is how it should be since they are married and God only knows what their home life is like  

We recently had to deal with a major blow-up with them that lasted about a month, having to do with something I "did" that my D-I-L especially was aggrieved about, and my S34 latched on to as though I'd heinously offended them both. But, I do know the hurt and pain over what I supposedly did was really my D-I-L's. To be honest, the offense I committed was actually done over a period of time that lasted a few years, culminating this February, but lingering on till April, when my S34 wrote me an email lecturing me about my grievous act. Sorry to be so cryptic, but the truth is that while I didn't do what my D-I-L and S34 were demanding I do for the last 3 years, I did do the exact right thing, and in the end (though they will never see it) I am being proven day by day to have done the exact right thing. The email my S34 sent me demanded an apology, and the threat was No Contact unless that happened.  

Well, lucky for me, the email came just as I found this website and started learning about S.E.T. and Validation. I very carefully navigated my way through an apology that I could live with. It was actually not an apology, but apparently I slid into home just under the ball, because they are talking to me again, and we are all trying to have a good relationship. Here's how I did it:

S=Support. I described the situation from their (really D-I-L's) eyes: "I realize that you are angry and frustrated and sad that I didn't (do such-and-such); I know that this is related to your area of expertise, and if I felt that someone was not taking my advice when it had to do with my own expertise, I would feel like you do, too... . I do value your experience and expertise, and appreciate your input always... . "

E=Empathy. "It really feels frustrating to want to help someone by giving advice, and to find that they don't use that advice, and I understand the pain and anger and frustration that you must be feeling about that... . "

T=Truth. I told the truth, but did not Justify it, Apologize for it, Defend or Explain myself. I told her what I actually did do (which was not what was advised). Nicely. That was it.

I do not know if there is a way this formula would work for you... . But, I did realize after learning what I learned on this site, that I HAD to validate my D-I-L's feelings about this whole thing--because the heinous act I did was tied into her self-image of her professional self, and after learning that this is part of her BPD, I couldn't NOT validate her feelings. Maybe this helps you figure out what exactly is hurting in your DD related to the supposed breach of trust that she feels you did by talking to her friend... . ? Is there a way to validate that feeling of hers without admitting to a heinous "crime" you did not do?   

And, Vivek ... . Before I go on and write a long response... . do you want to know how I came out of that really ugly angry, sad and hurt place? Can you learn from my experience?  I do, I do 

[Verbena]

Rapt Reader,

Our situations do sound very familiar.  I think my SIL is backing her up so strongly so that maybe her anger and outbursts can be directed away from him.  His life would not be worth living if he didn't play his part in this exactly the way she directs him to do it. 

I did validate how my daughter felt and empathize with her both in person and in multiple e-mails.  Initially, I tried to explain and justify myself, but not anymore.  Today I sent DD another e-mail because my husband said I should contact her since that was her big thing yesterday--I haven't contacted her.  Actually, I have--twice--but she hasn't reponded.  So I sent her an e-mail this morning that said I love her and think of her every day, that I want the best for her just as I always have and that I hope she will believe and accept my apology (I've apologized so many times I've lost count) and know that my love for her is the basis for everything I have tried to do where she is concerned.  Short and sweet.  No response.

I know what she wants from me because she has told me and her daddy both.  She wants me to say that I have "issues" and that I was manipulated with lies by her former best friend.  She wants me to say I am mistaken that she has any problems. And she wants me to grovel and humiliate myself in front of her.   I cannot do that.  I have been trying to talk to her about her behavior for fifteen years, long before I ever knew her friend, long before this current crisis.  It's not like she's just finding out that I feel her behavior is out of control. 

I have not handled this whole situation perfectly by any means, but I feel I've done all I can do for now. 

[Rapt Reader]

Tough one, Verbena... .    

I'm so sorry that your daughter is being so unreasonable; her perception of this situation is really skewed. No wonder you are having a devil of a time getting out of that thicket! I can tell you've been trying really hard to figure it out and try to make it better   

Well, you obviously can't admit to issues that you don't have... . If it were me, I would probably try to find some sort of issue that she might find agreement with, and that I could stretch my imagination enough to say: "Yeah; I do this (whatever) thing sometimes and I am trying to get a handle on it. I am working on that, and I hope to move past it soon... . I know that it has hurt you in the past, and I won't be doing it anymore." Something like that. But, if there is nothing you can find that is valid enough for her to agree with it, then you won't be able to pull that off.

I'm sorry that she won't accept your apology for the initial action; I wonder what the sticking point is? She just won't believe that you are sorry if you don't admit to being BPD yourself or something? That you would have to tell her that she has no problems at all, that everything is all you? Obviously you cannot admit to something that is not true... . Once thing I've found with doing S.E.T. is that I have to figure out the truth of the situation, and try to use it in a way that is not judgmental of my BPD relative, but that is also true for them besides me. It's not always easy, and doesn't always "work" and it's not always satisfying to my own ego if I feel that I'm selling myself short somehow. Most times I just have to remove my own ego out of the equation totally, and be as compassionate as possible with my relative while not debasing myself. It's a real fine line, and I can't always navigate it perfectly. I really feel for you   

[Verbena]

It is a tough one.  I know from past experience that when she is involved in some drama with someone, she is INSISTENT that they apologize and suffer and take all the blame.  She will  NOT accept responsibility for her behavior causing the situation.  And that is what she wants here. Actually, a few times she has admitted her part in it, but then as time goes on the blame is all back on them and history gets re-written. 

She told me in person that I should be crying and on my knees to her, begging for forgiveness.  This was after I had apologized over and over and over. She also wanted me at one point to write a letter to her former friend admitting that I had problems and then show her the letter. 

The only thing I can come up with to satisfy this need she has is to say that I stubbornly tried to hard for too long (just like you) to make her see things my way instead of just listening to how she felt about whatever the situation was.  I could admit to that.  In fact, I did admit to that now that I think about it the last time I saw her.  I don't know that she really heard me, though.  The problem I see with that is what she will read into it.  My saying I tried and tried to reason with her and make her see things my way instead of just being a good listener  will imply to her that her thinking is messed up and and she's unreasonable.  And boy is that true. 

At this point, I really feel she will only be satisfied if I say that I have BPD or some personality disorder, agree that her friend duped me with lies, agree that her friend was never really a friend, and say that her behavior is perfectly normal and/or excusable.  I can see her wanting me to not only admit to all that, but to put it in a letter to her friend which she could then show to everyone she knows.  Only then could she be vindicated and could I be forgiven.  That ain't happenin'. 

[vivekananda]

sorry it has taken me a bit to get back... . and this will be a short response, I was thinking of you Verbena and hoping you were ok. I know how confusing and hurtful it is.

I had an eye op on Wed, and my vision will take a while to be restored, so I am limiting my time here. I really want to read carefully your responses. So today I shan't tell you my process of reconciliation with my dd (a very imperfect thing, but better than the nothing I had) and my own journey to feeling balanced and comfortable with myself. No more FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt)for me!

Two things I wanted to say though. While other resources were very helpful, the book that got me on the right track was Valerie Porr's "Overcoming BPD" this showed me a lot about the importance of the apology and how to do it. My dd believes I submitted her to a lifetime of abuse causing her mental illness (which she believes is PTSD). This is what I said in a handwritten letter on special paper and sent registered mail for her birthday:

"I never understood how you could have so much pain. I knew you were sensitive but I failed to understand exactly how that felt for you.

I know I must have said and done things that hurt you because I did not properly understand. It was never my intention to cause you pain. I am sorry.

What can we do now to improve our relationship? What can I do to make things better?"

Verbena, I have put this here just so you can see there are different ways of doing this. I based this apology on Valerie Porr's advice. I do not think you need to do the same thing at all. You will know what is best to do. But I do think you need to look at how you have done things in the past and consciously begin you own personal journey to change. When you dd accuses you of being BPD, it doesn't surprise me at all   as a hurt mum who had a lifetime of living with a difficult child, then difficult adult, I know my responses were less than helpful at times. I am also aware of the genetic side to BPD and recognise the BPD in my own family. I know BPD has had a strong influence in my own upbringing and learnt behaviours. I don't expect you are perfect - you did things wrongly - you are only human. The point about this is to suggest it is helpful to change how we respond to life in general - helpful to us and to our loved ones.

The other thing I want to say now is how your dd feels today may be different to how she feels tomorrow. But, that from what you say, it seems like you feel there is a power struggle going on. I would not engage in a power struggle - you will not win. You are not dealing with a rational situation, you are dealing with a mental illness. I thing you need to learn lots about what BPD is. It took me more than a year to come to grips with it and I am learning lots still. Again, Valerie Porr explains it well for a parent (as she was a parent with a d with BPD, I believe).

I think you do need to change Verbena, for your sake. I think you need to let go of the past and look at what you can do today... . look at how you can make your life better and your relationships with those you love better. I believe the best thing for you is to 'study' as much as you can. This was my rationale: I expect my dd to undergo T to change the way she is. I need to understand what I want for her. Dialectical Behaviour Therapy is the 'gold standard' therapy, so I need to learn all I can about what that means. This was what set me off to learn and I soon discovered that I needed to change too. There are many levels of understanding concepts: from a superficial level to a deeper level to where you learning becomes embodied within you. We expect our dd's to change themselves to a deeper level where the learning is embodied within them. We expect them to change the way their brains work. We should see how that happens. In doing so, we get an idea of just how hard it is for our children.

Enough writing, I hope this makes sense (I am not proof reading it  ), I will get back to you soon,

Cheers,

Vivek      

RR to you too   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders