my story

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

i worked 3 years for a man who became one of my almost like my father figure and role model,  because my dads an addict... . well 3 years ago he died, on sight, with all of us around, i watched them pull his body out from a cabin i used to call home, he was under their trying to level it out with his father(both died instantly)... . we spent every almost ever waking second with him, i lived on sight, my closest friends lived on sight, all our clients and staff, and students, and his young daughters were my friends and family. we were always learning new things, and learning about our selves and had a blast. that place/job was my home and my life. i loved my job, i loved my life, so when he died i lost everything. his mom went crazy(understandable) she thinks we were out to get her, so turned on us. i walked out 3 months after becuase i couldnt handle being there without him, couldnt handle the drama, and bs that was goin on... . , it was horrible, everything we worked for went down the drain... . well 3 years later i still dont know how to recover... . i mean i tried. i think i have or had some PTSP stuff goin on from that... . i made a promise to myself then that i wouldn’t love anything that much ever again, it just hurt to much... .

   

long story short i moved away, found another living on sight job, where i thought i could move on... . it was time, but i really really didnt want to. i didnt want to ever leave his place... . so thats where i met my BPD friend. i love her to peace’s but shes put me through a lot... . she was the next thing i attached myself to, i trusted her with everthing, she walked me through alot of that... . she was there for me... . she made me feel better, more alive... . in a weird way i felt she'd always be there, and always have my back, and in a weird way she is and has been since i met her... . i donno maybe i was just grieving, but i thought... . sigh i thought at one point that she did love me... . and i thought i loved her... . she told me she didnt want me to feel so alone, i dont no what that means, my guess now is that she didnt want to be alone... . so our dynamics in our friendship are very weird... . we both know that... . i no longer live with her... . but were still really close but i needed some distance, though right now i feel like she’s died. she talks to me like she’s not alive, super detached, and that i have to move on, she doesn’t want to try again (at life)... . but she wants me to be happy... . i have yet to attach myself to anyone else... . and im still very much attached to her... . i want her to be happy to... . i want her to start living again... . i want to start living again... . but all i do is work. I've always been a hard worker, its something i pride myself on but right now i might be over doing it... .

   

what do i do from here?

[qwaszx]

i worked 3 years for a man who became one of my almost like my father figure and role model,  because my dads an addict... . well 3 years ago he died, on sight, with all of us around, i watched them pull his body out from a cabin i used to call home, he was under their trying to level it out with his father(both died instantly)... . we spent every almost ever waking second with him, i lived on sight, my closest friends lived on sight, all our clients and staff, and students, and his young daughters were my friends and family. we were always learning new things, and learning about our selves and had a blast. that place/job was my home and my life. i loved my job, i loved my life, so when he died i lost everything. his mom went crazy(understandable) she thinks we were out to get her, so turned on us. i walked out 3 months after becuase i couldnt handle being there without him, couldnt handle the drama, and bs that was goin on... . , it was horrible, everything we worked for went down the drain... . well 3 years later i still dont know how to recover... . i mean i tried. i think i have or had some PTSP stuff goin on from that... . i made a promise to myself then that i wouldn’t love anything that much ever again, it just hurt to much... .

   

long story short i moved away, found another living on sight job, where i thought i could move on... . it was time, but i really really didnt want to. i didnt want to ever leave his place... . so thats where i met my BPD friend. i love her to peace’s but shes put me through a lot... . she was the next thing i attached myself to, i trusted her with everthing, she walked me through alot of that... . she was there for me... . she made me feel better, more alive... . in a weird way i felt she'd always be there, and always have my back, and in a weird way she is and has been since i met her... . i donno maybe i was just grieving, but i thought... . sigh i thought at one point that she did love me... . and i thought i loved her... . she told me she didnt want me to feel so alone, i dont no what that means, my guess now is that she didnt want to be alone... . so our dynamics in our friendship are very weird... . we both know that... . i no longer live with her... . but were still really close but i needed some distance, though right now i feel like she’s died. she talks to me like she’s not alive, super detached, and that i have to move on, she doesn’t want to try again (at life)... . but she wants me to be happy... . i have yet to attach myself to anyone else... . and im still very much attached to her... . i want her to be happy to... . i want her to start living again... . i want to start living again... . but all i do is work. I've always been a hard worker, its something i pride myself on but right now i might be over doing it... .

   

what do i do from here?

[P.F.Change]

What are your goals? Can you identify any areas where you feel stuck or that you would like to change? For example, you mention you may be using work to distract yourself. Is there some emotional work that needs to be done as well? Do you have a therapist who can help you process the grief and trauma you are experiencing?

Wishing you peace,

PF

[qwaszx]

 no i dont have a therapist, i have my friends from my work place still, but i try at all cost to avoid any feeling convo's,a) my two best friends i dont want to bring down, they have moved on in their life, im not about to burden them with my crap. they dont understand, like most people and b) they arent good with "feeling" type stuff, my one friend avoids her feelings just as much as me... . and my other friend, can be very bold and harsh on her response. So id like someone outside to talk to about this... . maybe i've always been running from my feelings i donno, im not really comfortable talk about them... . writings much easyer:D i've also always berried myself in my work.

well im very stuck in the push/pull crap thats been going on the last almost 3 years now, with my BPD friend. oddly as it may seem... . shes the only one i feel safe talking about my feelings with... . the only one i feel completely un-judged by... . also the only one i allow myself to be venerable with... . but back to what i was saying im torn between wanting to move back with her, or moving away to an unknown life, to pick up with someone new... . im stuck because i want to help her, i want to keep that door open, but i dont know how to leave it open, be there for her, and move on to a new chapter in my life, i want to be close but not to close... .

i haven't accepted that its her job to decide if her lifes worth living and worth fighting for, not mine. i haven't accepted that she seems to have just given up on life and just wants to die. i haven't accepted that her life will always be in pain. i donno, all i know is when we lived together she wasnt happy all the time, but she'd only crash and burn for about a month or two and then try again... . its been over a year and she refuses to try again. she refuses to live. i fight with knowing i cant sustain what i was doing for her, but i also fight with knowing when i did fight for her, she fought for herself, she was happier, we had a lot of fun, we had a lot of good times. i honestly felt like somehow she was getting better... . until she moved back home... .

i want to maybe have a kid at some point, maybe have a happy life... . a place of my own to call home, i want to settle down(i've moved 5 times in the last 3 years, all being pretty big moves, and planning once again to move in a couple months), to find a more fulfilling job... . i'd like to be a little more stable in everything... .

whats emotional work mean?

[qwaszx]

also i've mention this before on other pages, but i have ADHA, untreated, and i dont have a doc, so i cant get meds. went and filled out an assessment form, never her anything back from the place(that was 4 months ago if not longer i believe, and i dont feel like hounding them) so I got books instead... . last week i went to a walk in, and got blood work done, cuz im exhausted ... . same thing its been a week today since my blood work, i've had to hound these docs also because he was supposed to call me Tuesday, i never heard anything from them, called twice got the receptionist both times, first time she said she would get him to call me tom, second time and she seemed shocked that the doc never got back to me, said she would make sure he would call on Monday, so hopefully i'll hear from him tom... .

[P.F.Change]

Would you like to examine why you feel responsible for your pwBPD's well-being? It sounds like you may be attached to your role as rescuer in the relationship. How do you feel when you are doing something to "save" someone else?

When I say emotional work, I mean really taking time to acknowledge and examine what you are feeling and why. Keeping busy with other things might be a way to try not to feel.

One goal you have is to feel settled and stable. What things do you need in order to achieve that goal?

PF

[qwaszx]

thats the one part i dont understand, i dont get anything out of "saving" or my attempts at "saving" her. i resent the fact that i put myself out there once again. i resent wasting my time fighting a fight that isnt mine, just to see her crash again, especially when she doesn’t actually care about me. i resent knowing shes the only one who can save herself but won’t unless i end up doing something, or someone ends up doing something. i just find it tiring, it wares me down. all i want is for her to save her own ass for once, but when i let her fall, she just crashes and burns, and stays burning until someone does something, this time i haven't tried to "save" her and she just refuses to try, refuses to get up, its been over a year. it stupid, cuz i know just what i have to do at each moment to help her get goin again, no one else seems to get it, and i dont blame them... .

so why do i do it? well im loyal to a fault, and im quit stubborn myself. this is the first time i ever tried to help someone, and you know why? it cuz when my boss died i would never have gotten through it without the support of all my friends, i thought "pay it forward"... . and i may have bitten off more than i can swallow . so for once in my silly little life i though, maybe i just be there for someone else through their suffering, because as far as feelings go, i do/did understand what she was going through... . and now im attached to the idiot, and refuse to give up on her, even when she is always giving up on herself... . and i know im ranting, cuz seriously i wouldn’t have traded any of my moments for anything along the way as far as our friendship has gone. the ups and downs are a crazy ride, but in the end i feel its always been worth it, she’s always been worth it, everyones worth it... . even as trying as it has been... . i've actually learnt a lot from all of this... . though i dough you can tell right now

actually i've always been the one telling other people(aka, my mom), "its whomevers life, if he wants to waste his life, let him and be a junkie, hes not a child and you don’t have control over him, you cant stop him, only he can, if he so wishes" cuz growing up my parents always tried to "save" each other. it drove me nuts, my mom thought is was a heartless ass hole because i never tried to help anyone, I just knew that they had to help themselves, it was never about caring or not caring.

so as far as my family goes im just my dads best friend... . i just listen to him... . though deep down i'd like to tell him to buck up, cuz hes going to kill himself once of these days, and if i have any say, if i did ever have kids or get married or anything like that id like him to be around... . i love my dad. just as i love her, i dont want them to be in pain. i dont want them to die.

as far as feeling settled, maybe im just to young right now, maybe im just in a hurry... . i dont really know. something for the ADHD might help right about now, i think thats got more to do with it... .

i guess i do, do a lot of emotional work, im always sitting back examining what i feel and why i might be feeling that way... . i think a lot... . and try and put everything in place... .

[P.F.Change]

thats the one part i dont understand, i dont get anything out of "saving" or my attempts at "saving" her.

That's not usually how it works. We all do things for some reason or another, otherwise we wouldn't do them. Look harder.

One thing you appear to be getting out of it is resentment:

i resent the fact that i put myself out there once again. i resent wasting my time fighting a fight that isnt mine, just to see her crash again, especially when she doesn’t actually care about me. i resent knowing shes the only one who can save herself but won’t unless i end up doing something, or someone ends up doing something.

Maybe resentment isn't the payoff you are after. But I think you may be resentful because you are not getting the reward you *expected* from your attempts to save her, and that frustrates you. What is it you really want--what are you hoping to get out of it?

all i want is for her to save her own ass for once, but when i let her fall, she just crashes and burns, and stays burning until someone does something, this time i haven't tried to "save" her and she just refuses to try, refuses to get up, its been over a year.

What does it say about you that she does not want to get better?

this is the first time i ever tried to help someone, and you know why? it cuz when my boss died i would never have gotten through it without the support of all my friends, i thought "pay it forward"... . so for once in my silly little life i though, maybe i just be there for someone else through their suffering, because as far as feelings go, i do/did understand what she was going through... .

Could you be trying to soothe your own wounds by using someone else's? I have done, where I saw what someone else was going through, it reminded me of my own painful wounds, and then to try to give them a different outcome than what happened to me--kind of a twisted way to try to change my own past--I tried to provide "help" that they hadn't asked for and didn't want. This is codependent behavior. Maybe you are really trying to save yourself.

There is a big difference between offering support and friendship during a difficult time, which can be done while maintaining healthy interpersonal boundaries, and undermining their autonomy and right to decide whether they need help.

... . cuz growing up my parents always tried to "save" each other. it drove me nuts, my mom thought is was a heartless ass hole because i never tried to help anyone, I just knew that they had to help themselves, it was never about caring or not caring.

Hmm. So "saving" was a dynamic in your FOO. What changed about the understanding you had back then about letting others help themselves, and the understanding you have now that says "I am the only one who knows what someone else needs?"

so as far as my family goes im just my dads best friend... .

Do you not see this as problematic? It strikes me as odd. Parents are supposed to have friends their own age. They should be available to listen to their children and be a shoulder to lean on while getting their own support from their peers. It sounds like things are backwards in your family. A child--even an adult child--should not be expected to shoulder the adult responsibility of being his parent's best friend or therapist.

i love my dad. just as i love her, i dont want them to be in pain. i dont want them to die.

It looks like you are starting to see that these two relationships are connected. The same dynamic is at play with your pwBPD as with your father. Of course, when we love someone, we don't want them to suffer. It hurts us to see people we care about making self-destructive choices, not only because we want to see them healthy and happy, but also because we don't want to feel the pain of losing them. Do you think you have finished processing the grief for your boss? To me, it seems like you may be hoping to stop yourself losing the other people you care about, too. I think it is related.

Would you consider talking with a therapist to work on your grief and the possible PTSD issues you mention?

as far as feeling settled, maybe im just to young right now, maybe im just in a hurry... . i dont really know. something for the ADHD might help right about now, i think thats got more to do with it... .

Ok. So one thing you say you need in order to attain your goals is treatment for ADHD. You are taking some steps to try to get treatment but having trouble getting responses from the clinics. Did you hear back yet this week? What do you need to do to make sure your need is met--can you come up with a plan?

PF

[qwaszx]

(ps i put all my new answers in red:D)

thats the one part i dont understand, i dont get anything out of "saving" or my attempts at "saving" her.

That's not usually how it works. We all do things for some reason or another, otherwise we wouldn't do them. Look harder.

One thing you appear to be getting out of it is resentment:

Is resentment something I can get out of it? Ok well before all the realization that this isn’t just a onetime sorta “saving” I enjoyed it, it made me feel special, that little old me could make that much of a difference in someone’s life. It felt good. I liked that she trusted me with her feelings. It made me happy to see her doing well again, and it kills me when she’s in pain. After about the third trip, which was the really scary bad one, where I kinda thought we were both going to die, got stupid paranoid, very on edge... . realized I can’t do this again, I can’t do this forever, it’s pointless, I was really robotic, even my other friends told me when I finally broke free, because I also became very isolated, anytime I’d try and go see my other friends or family she would go really suicidal, or hurt by the time I got back, we worked together so I’d have to carry her ass there too, cuz then she’d be “sick” and not work for a week, and leave me to everything by myself, and at the time I thought, ok right now she isn’t stable enough to work, to do anything(this is where I was when I lost my boss) so I know how that feels, and sometimes everyone just needs a break, I don’t mind carrying someone every once in a while. It wouldn’t have been an issues if it were farther apart, but she was falling faster than I could rebuild myself from the last time around... . it just wasn’t worth it. I was soo afraid to leave her even for a night, I was afraid who would be there when I got home… Started building resentment from it. Started realizing this was never going to end. Wrote “I’ll save her til the end of time but I know at some point she’s gotta save herself” I know this is true, but waiting for that day to come feels like forever. So now I feel trapped anytime she I feel like I need to save her. That’s where the resentment comes from…oh and in the start before new years of 2012 she did actually want help. She was very much on a self-help type quest. She really did try her heart out... . She doesn’t now.

Quote from: qwaszx on June 24, 2013, 10:36:54 PM

i resent the fact that i put myself out there once again. i resent wasting my time fighting a fight that isnt mine, just to see her crash again, especially when she doesn’t actually care about me. i resent knowing shes the only one who can save herself but won’t unless i end up doing something, or someone ends up doing something.

Maybe resentment isn't the payoff you are after. But I think you may be resentful because you are not getting the reward you *expected* from your attempts to save her, and that frustrates you. What is it you really want--what are you hoping to get out of it?

What am I hoping to get out of it…well that’s easy. Love. Lol as much as I hate admitting it. That’s what I’d like deep down, but the resentment does go away when she finds someone else after a while…though I don’t see anyone ever lasting. Actually just when I start feeling really happy for her and feeling like then I can move on because I feel like maybe this time she’s found someone who she can actually be happy with(if she go to get help again of course), who isn’t going to just be another ass hole, who she isn’t going to get the crap beat out of her by…. She break up with whomever:/ I don’t want to be unable to help her get out of another bad relationship. So I unconsciously just keep waiting:/ and that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard:/ though I like to pretend that’s not, and none of that’s there. And the reality of it all is even if I she wanted to be with me, I wouldn’t consider it, because she needs help, we need help, and I’m not going back to that cycle... .

Quote from: qwaszx on June 24, 2013, 10:36:54 PM

all i want is for her to save her own ass for once, but when i let her fall, she just crashes and burns, and stays burning until someone does something, this time i haven't tried to "save" her and she just refuses to try, refuses to get up, its been over a year.

What does it say about you that she does not want to get better?

I don’t think it says anything?:S does it?

Quote from: qwaszx on June 24, 2013, 10:36:54 PM

this is the first time i ever tried to help someone, and you know why? it cuz when my boss died i would never have gotten through it without the support of all my friends,  i thought "pay it forward"... . so for once in my silly little life i though, maybe i just be there for someone else through their suffering, because as far as feelings go, i do/did understand what she was going through... .

Could you be trying to soothe your own wounds by using someone else's? I have done, where I saw what someone else was going through, it reminded me of my own painful wounds, and then to try to give them a different outcome than what happened to me--kind of a twisted way to try to change my own past--I tried to provide "help" that they hadn't asked for and didn't want. This is codependent behavior. Maybe you are really trying to save yourself.

There is a big difference between offering support and friendship during a difficult time, which can be done while maintaining healthy interpersonal boundaries, and undermining their autonomy and right to decide whether they need help.

Ya, I’ve realized this. I do both. I’m normally pretty sensible, but then I break down and feel like I’m so tired of watching the people I care about most about die, so I freak out. And really want to do something to stop them. Like stop trying to die. I don’t accept that. This is where we run into problems. I want her to want to try, and I want her to live. And she wants me to accept that she wants to die, and give up on her. So it makes me sad, and I want to fight harder…

Quote from: qwaszx on June 24, 2013, 10:36:54 PM

... . cuz growing up my parents always tried to "save" each other. it drove me nuts,  my mom thought is was a heartless ass hole because i never tried to help anyone, I just knew that they had to help themselves, it was never about caring or not caring.

Hmm. So "saving" was a dynamic in your FOO. What changed about the understanding you had back then about letting others help themselves, and the understanding you have now that says "I am the only one who knows what someone else needs?"

What does FOO mean? What want to say is she led me to believe that I could “make” her get up. If I did the “right” things, I could save her, and now I feel like I can, because she did actually get up, if I did the right things…so im having a harder time letting this idea go…and I have no idea what anyone one else needs….but I seem to think I know only what she needs:D

Quote from: qwaszx on June 24, 2013, 10:36:54 PM

so as far as my family goes im just my dads best friend... .

Do you not see this as problematic? It strikes me as odd. Parents are supposed to have friends their own age. They should be available to listen to their children and be a shoulder to lean on while getting their own support from their peers. It sounds like things are backwards in your family. A child--even an adult child--should not be expected to shoulder the adult responsibility of being his parent's best friend or therapist.

I don’t know, I don’t think so cuz its always been that way... . so to me I don’t find it odd….he doesn’t really have a lot of friends…or anyone to talk to about things that bother him…so I listen... . what “should” is be like?…is that important? and he doesnt believe in therapy, and my moms always pushed it on everyone.

Quote from: qwaszx on June 24, 2013, 10:36:54 PM

i love my dad. just as i love her, i dont want them to be in pain. i dont want them to die.

It looks like you are starting to see that these two relationships are connected. The same dynamic is at play with your pwBPD as with your father. Of course, when we love someone, we don't want them to suffer. It hurts us to see people we care about making self-destructive choices, not only because we want to see them healthy and happy, but also because we don't want to feel the pain of losing them. Do you think you have finished processing the grief for your boss? To me, it seems like you may be hoping to stop yourself losing the other people you care about, too. I think it is related.

Ya I think it’s related too, when we used to work together one of our work vehicles was making this loud popping sound. I wouldn’t let her drive it without my, cuz if she was going down I was to. I’m not about to lose anyone else I love…I just don’t know what to do with this. I was so scared to lose anyone else I loved….not as much now but it’s still there. I don’t want do it again.

Would you consider talking with a therapist to work on your grief and the possible PTSD issues you mention?

Quote from: qwaszx on June 24, 2013, 10:36:54 PM

as far as feeling settled, maybe im just to young right now, maybe im just in a hurry... . i dont really know. something for the ADHD might help right about now, i think thats got more to do with it... .

Ok. So one thing you say you need in order to attain your goals is treatment for ADHD. You are taking some steps to try to get treatment but having trouble getting responses from the clinics. Did you hear back yet this week? What do you need to do to make sure your need is met--can you come up with a plan?

Well this is my plan, so I was thinking im going to move back across the country, because I found therapist that does neurofeedback while I was looking for one for my friend... . so my plan is to go see her and go through all that stuff, and she’s higher quality then most therapist, so I wanta give that a shot, and see where that goes…that being said, im closer to my dad, mom and friend then…and I don’t know how much drama I want in my life, so im going to have to get really good at setting limits, and boundrys before I get to close.

PF

[P.F.Change]

I have been away for a bit and am catching up on my replies.

... . I enjoyed it, it made me feel special, that little old me could make that much of a difference in someone’s life. It felt good. I liked that she trusted me with her feelings.

BINGO. This is what I was getting at. Being a hero makes us feel powerful, important. That is the payoff. Resentment happens when we don't get the result we are after. Once her behavior stopped giving you a feeling of control, you started to resent her. Have you read any of the workshops we have here about co-dependency?

What am I hoping to get out of it…well that’s easy. Love.

This ties in with your answers above, and also leads to some things discussed below. Why do you think you feel you need to earn love?

What does it say about you that she does not want to get better?

I don’t think it says anything?:S does it?

In reality, no. I think you understand that on an intellectual level. But on an emotional level, it seems you have joined yourself to her outcome. Deep down, do you maybe believe that if she doesn't want to get better it is because you're not worth getting better for? Are you supposed to be special enough to make someone want to change?

Ya, I’ve realized this. I do both. I’m normally pretty sensible, but then I break down and feel like I’m so tired of watching the people I care about most about die, so I freak out. And really want to do something to stop them. Like stop trying to die. I don’t accept that. This is where we run into problems. I want her to want to try, and I want her to live. And she wants me to accept that she wants to die, and give up on her. So it makes me sad, and I want to fight harder…

We can't control others, and we can't stop death. People you care about are going to die. Some of them may die as a consequence of their own poor decisions. This is something you cannot control. The issue here is how to cope with that reality.

If someone is suicidal, they need professional help. Call them an ambulance and then let the doctors and therapists teach the person how to save himself. It is a bigger job than you are trained for.

What does FOO mean? What want to say is she led me to believe that I could “make” her get up. If I did the “right” things, I could save her, and now I feel like I can, because she did actually get up, if I did the right things…so im having a harder time letting this idea go…and I have no idea what anyone one else needs….but I seem to think I know only what she needs:D

FOO is an acronym for Family Of Origin (parents, siblings).

It sounds like you allowed yourself to be manipulated because you wanted to believe you could control someone else's behavior. You never had that power, even though when she chose to accept your "help," you may have thought you did. What exactly is it you think she needs? What do you think you need?  

I don’t know, I don’t think so cuz its always been that way... . so to me I don’t find it odd….he doesn’t really have a lot of friends…or anyone to talk to about things that bother him…so I listen... . what “should” is be like?…is that important? and he doesnt believe in therapy, and my moms always pushed it on everyone.

If this has always been the dynamic with your dad, it will feel "normal" to you. But it isn't really. You say your father is an addict. Family members of addicts often develop co-dependency. I see evidence of codependent traits in what you say about your relationship with your FOO as well as in your relationship with your pwBPD. If you are co-dependent, you are going to keep gravitating to the same kind of imbalanced relationships until you do something to change your own behavior patterns. This site has good workshops on co-dependence, as I mentioned earlier, and posting here on Personal Inventory can be a good way to get feedback. Al-Anon can also be very helpful when you have co-dependent tendencies. Therapy is also good.

I was so scared to lose anyone else I loved….not as much now but it’s still there. I don’t want do it again.

It is understandable that you would have this fear. There are some things we can't control, though. I think it would be a good idea for you to talk with a therapist about it and work through your grief also. Any trained therapist can help you get started on that work. Were you looking for a neurofeedback specialist because of the ADHD?

PF

[qwaszx]

No, worries, Thanks for getting back to me

BINGO. This is what I was getting at. Being a hero makes us feel powerful, important. That is

the payoff. Resentment happens when we don't get the result we are after. Once her behavior stopped giving you a feeling of control, you started to resent her. Have you read any of the workshops we have here about co-dependency?

but thats the thing, its when she start making me into someone really important that i resent her. i dont want to be the "hero" in her story anymore. i want her to just do it herself. i want her to be able to look in the mirror after and say, "i did that, i overcame that" not "if it weren’t for you i would never have gotten out of that" I want her to have enough self-worth to know she did those things, without anything to do with me…  i want to be someone who's just around because were friends. the same way i am with my other friend, and they are with me. i never try and play the "hero" in any other relationship. and i dont play it anymore in hers. Matter of fact i dont really want play this game at all. wouldn't it be nice if she was just a normal happy, healthy, person? i think so, but the truth is that shes not.

This ties in with your answers above, and also leads to some things discussed below. Why do you think you feel you need to earn love?

why do i feel like i need to earn love? hmmmm interesting, i didnt notice that before. im guessing my mother. unless your what she wants you to be, then you dont get loved, you get "controlled" or told to leave, because you wont:D. she told me in the winter, "it took me a long time to love you" wtf does that even mean?. so i do nothing that would make her overly proud of me. i will not better myself and let her ever find out about it, because then i'd be hers. i want nothing from her as far as approval goes. I want to just be me... . and guess what I’m not any ones, but my own. soo i block myself from growth because i don’t want her to think any of it is hers... . also thinks "helping" other people is controlling them(she told me this last week, when i was talking about my friend to her, she said something about the therapist not controlling her... .  um no, they aren’t there to “control” you, matter of fact “control is all an illusion there for no one can control anyone.  They’re there to listen, ask questions that you already deep down know the answers to but haven't really acknowledged, and guide you to a more stable life, give you tools so that one day you wont need them anymore, and one day you have the know how to help yourself... . at least that’s what i think). i actually dont think "helpping" and controlling are the same thing at all. i think it standing by them and letting them be their own person, be who they chose to be, letting them decide what right or wrong on their own time. Letting them have there freedom. letting them fall, and just being there, and when and if the timing is right ask some questions, and let them go on their way is more helpful... .

In reality, no. I think you understand that on an intellectual level. But on an emotional level, it seems you have joined yourself to her outcome. Deep down, do you maybe believe that if she doesn't want to get better it is because you're not worth getting better for? Are you supposed to be special enough to make someone want to change?

I think everyone would like to think that they are important enough to make someone want to change, and you see it all the time in shows where the family is trying to help the person they love by getting them into somewhere that people with the right know how can help them recover. I think without love people wouldn’t change. I think a lot of parents change for their kids because they don’t want to give their children the same crappy up bringing they had. Or an example on here would be all the parents, family members, etc, trying to change because they love their BPD enough to see that what they are or were doing isn’t helping, and they want to be able to better connect and better understand them. Or simply communicate more clearly, stand strong along the way… I think people sometimes will change to silence the pleas of their family members because they can’t stand seeing what they are doing to them. I think when the people gather together and have a sit down intervention with their addict partner they think that they are special/important enough to that person who they wright those letter to, with all their tears, will somehow make the person change………I would like to believe that people who love you don’t hurt you, but the truth is they always hurt you the most, because you value them above all, so in a sense we allow them to hurt us. When you let someone be important in your life, you hope they won’t…I just donno, but I would never do to her all the crap she’s done to me…but that’s bs because I do it to myself. I know what shes like, and I chose to be here.

At one point we were messed in a supper co-dependant way, I did decide that if she would piss it all away, she was taking me with her.  (That’s not going to happen now). It felt like I couldn’t exist without her…I exist just fine on my own  it took me a long time to pull away, and feel normal again.  feel like me again…

We can't control others, and we can't stop death. People you care about are going to die. Some of them may die as a consequence of their own poor decisions. This is something you cannot control. The issue here is how to cope with that reality.

yes i know:)

If someone is suicidal, they need professional help. Call them an ambulance and then let the doctors and therapists teach the person how to save himself. It is a bigger job than you are trained for.

shes been suicidal for the last year, with therapist... . but thats all i want, but all ther therapist shes seem dont know what to do with her, they bail after 6months. all i want is for her to find the right one who isn't going to quit on her... . the rest of them have made it pretty clear that they arent trainned to help her. she doesnt want to try again right now. so i'll wait, and be around wheneven she needs me too. the way i see it is i actually do know a heck of a lot more on BPD then they do... . and i've talked to therapist, they dont even believe BPDs ever get better... . well that was one anyways... . the other one i talked to sounded really hope full. i wish she would try her, but we dont have the money... . and she isn't ready to try again.

It sounds like you allowed yourself to be manipulated because you wanted to believe you could control someone else's behavior. You never had that power, even though when she chose to accept your "help," you may have thought you did. What exactly is it you think she needs? What do you think you need?   

no i've never minded being controlled because to be its not real, so I guess letting people believe they had control over me never bothered me until all of this... . i didn’t think letting her have control over me was even a bad idea at first  i know it sounds really stupid, but when i met her and she would deregulate and grasp at thing, including me to control, i’d willing and knowingly let her because  i knew deep down im not controlled by anyone but myself. I though by giving her control, or the illusion of control would give her something solid, so if she can control me she can control herself…because all she really wants is to be in control of herself…but when she’s deregulated she isn’t, she’s full on does anything to give herself that illusion of control… hell im not even a confrontational person, I’d much rather roll my eyes and walk away... . i don’t know what she need. I don’t really know I was thinking…what do I need... . i don’t actually need anything. I never thought I had that power, when she didn’t want to try I didn’t ask her to. When she didn’t want to move I simply waited her out. When she brought someone into our house that we were both afraid of, that was really hurting her, hurting me, that was the only time I asked her to stop self-destructing, because I was terrified, I was actually literally getting sick. But I even then I waited her out. I never pushed her even then until I couldn’t take it at all…that was the one and only time I pretty well bagged her to stop. And I’ll never go that far again. I don’t need anything from her. Shes good whatever way she chooses to be, all my stuff is and will always be the only thing I can change. When she’s her normal self, she one of my best friends, and even when shes not, shes still one of my best friends. She actually does have a tone of great qualities, and her just being her, that’s all I need from her... . maybe im not understanding the question ... . most the time i do what were doin now

If this has always been the dynamic with your dad, it will feel "normal" to you. But it isn't really. You say your father is an addict. Family members of addicts often develop co-dependency. I see evidence of codependent traits in what you say about your relationship with your FOO as well as in your relationship with your pwBPD. If you are co-dependent, you are going to keep gravitating to the same kind of imbalanced relationships until you do something to change your own behavior patterns. This site has good workshops on co-dependence, as I mentioned earlier, and posting here on Personal Inventory can be a good way to get feedback. Al-Anon can also be very helpful when you have co-dependent tendencies. Therapy is also good

.

Im working on changing all my behaviours I feel like I’ve done a lot:)

It is understandable that you would have this fear. There are some things we can't control, though. I think it would be a good idea for you to talk with a therapist about it and work through your grief also. Any trained therapist can help you get started on that work. Were you looking for a neurofeedback specialist because of the ADHD?

ya, its goin to be good:) why do you want to know where im looking?

Thanks for all your time:)

[Suzn]

i never try and play the "hero" in any other relationship. and i dont play it anymore in hers. Matter of fact i dont really want play this game at all. wouldn't it be nice if she was just a normal happy, healthy, person? i think so, but the truth is that shes not.

It sounds as though you are coming to terms with this reality, that your friend isn't happy and healthy and that you have no control over this. This is painful and something you need to grieve. It's normal to be sad when someone isn't happy and healthy and we see them not wanting to make changes.

soo i block myself from growth because i don’t want her to think any of it is hers

Your own growth is yours, no one can take that from you.

... . also thinks "helping" other people is controlling them

Actually, the act of "controlling", when it comes to a codependent, is this... . we want them to stop making "us" feel uncomfortable. You are not comfortable at all with the thought of her dying. So much so that you had decided that if she went you'd go with her. This has been an enmeshed relationship, you and your friend. It's good you are recognizing the unhealthiness of this dynamic and are pulling away from that.

They’re there to listen, ask questions that you already deep down know the answers to but haven't really acknowledged, and guide you to a more stable life, give you tools so that one day you wont need them anymore, and one day you have the know how to help yourself... . at least that’s what i think).

You are right that a therapist can help by giving you tools to better your life. And in most instances a therapist is very accurate on their diagnosis. However, a therapist is trained to listen without a predetermined assessment of a clients issues. The answer to a therapists question can go in several different directs, they know this. This is one example of the fact that a diagnosis can take a very long time for pwBPD. A therapist only has an hour with you, they don't see you everyday to witness behavior patterns.

 

i actually dont think "helpping" and controlling are the same thing at all.

It can be.

i think it standing by them and letting them be their own person, be who they chose to be, letting them decide what right or wrong on their own time. Letting them have there freedom. letting them fall, and just being there, and when and if the timing is right ask some questions, and let them go on their way is more helpful... .

This is more helpful, you are right. The question is can you be ok with her falling? You are asking a lot of yourself to know when the time is right and knowing what questions to ask. These are her life lessons to learn, if you continue to step in and save her she will most likely never learn them on her own. I did this, I am a recovering codependent. I stole life lessons from people I loved because I was not comfortable with losing them. It was too hard to bear, for me.

I think everyone would like to think that they are important enough to make someone want to change, and you see it all the time in shows where the family is trying to help the person they love by getting them into somewhere that people with the right know how can help them recover. I think without love people wouldn’t change.

Is this what your mother is doing with you? Only you know the answer to this, it's just a thought.

I think a lot of parents change for their kids because they don’t want to give their children the same crappy up bringing they had.

This is why I ask the question above.

I would like to believe that people who love you don’t hurt you, but the truth is they always hurt you the most, because you value them above all, so in a sense we allow them to hurt us. When you let someone be important in your life, you hope they won’t…I just donno, but I would never do to her all the crap she’s done to me…but that’s bs because I do it to myself. I know what shes like, and I chose to be here.

This is very true. Life has disappointments and hurt. It also has love and joy. Finding the balance is healthy. People that love you can try to control in ways they don't understand themselves because of their fears of loss. You and your friend both have fears of loss.

the way i see it is i actually do know a heck of a lot more on BPD then they do... . and i've talked to therapist, they dont even believe BPDs ever get better... . well that was one anyways... . the other one i talked to sounded really hope full. i wish she would try her, but we dont have the money... . and she isn't ready to try again.

You may be right, there are many therapists untrained in regards to BPD. A trained therapist would be very beneficial to your friend, that's her call, she has to be the one to decide when she is uncomfortable enough to reach out, why would she do this right now? She has you. Sometimes the greatest show of love is to leave someone with themselves qwaszx.

Im working on changing all my behaviours I feel like I’ve done a lot:)

I agree with you, you are coming to terms with a lot of your past and seeing you have your own patterns. Have you considered a CODA meeting? This is Codependent Anonymous, Al Anon is similar in their support. This is free and they have meetings everyday in some areas.

I agree with PF Change, you have a lot of grief work to do. Meaning you lost someone in your life who gave you something you feel you never got from your parents. This person meant a lot to you and grieving this loss is important. A therapist can help you with this. I'm glad to hear you are working towards meeting with one in your future. Take care of you, it's your turn and you are worth it. 

[qwaszx]

Your own growth is yours, no one can take that from you

yes i know in an intellectual level that, but not emotionally... .

Actually, the act of "controlling", when it comes to a codependent, is this... . we want them to stop making "us" feel uncomfortable. You are not comfortable at all with the thought of her dying. So much so that you had decided that if she went you'd go with her. This has been an enmeshed relationship, you and your friend. It's good you are recognizing the unhealthiness of this dynamic and are pulling away from that.

thank you:)

i actually dont think "helping" and controlling are the same thing at all.


It can be

how can it be? i can understand with a child and a adult up to a certain point like "no running in front of cars" or "dont play with guns" stuff like that. but not with an adult.

This is more helpful, you are right. The question is can you be ok with her falling? You are asking a lot of yourself to know when the time is right and knowing what questions to ask. These are her life lessons to learn, if you continue to step in and save her she will most likely never learn them on her own. I did this, I am a recovering codependent. I stole life lessons from people I loved because I was not comfortable with losing them. It was too hard to bear, for me.

i feel like up to a certain point i am. i feel like i honestly know when she needs to fall, when i need to let go, when i need to let her do her thing, so to speak. of course its super hard on me but i feel like I’m getting it... . when she was with a really abusive ass hole, didn’t stand in her way, i wanted her to learn so she would never be back there again... . she hasn’t talked with him since... . and that’s huge.

Is this what your mother is doing with you? Only you know the answer to this, it's just a thought.

oh your so right it is... . wow that makes me mad, i didn’t think it was my belief from her. my parents haven’t changed though... . i believe somewhere in me that people aren’t even capable of change, they ALWAYS relapse.

This is very true. Life has disappointments and hurt. It also has love and joy. Finding the balance is healthy. People that love you can try to control in ways they don't understand themselves because of their fears of loss. You and your friend both have fears of loss.

i think i get it... .  

You may be right, there are many therapists untrained in regards to BPD. A trained therapist would be very beneficial to your friend, that's her call, she has to be the one to decide when she is uncomfortable enough to reach out, why would she do this right now? She has you. Sometimes the greatest show of love is to leave someone with themselves qwaszx.

no she has her world, and herself, yes im here for her but i dont think im blocking her in any way for that. shes on her own. most the time i do very little for her in anyway. is talking to her wrong. where she is right now, nothing i do or say will help her in anyway. when shes had enough and wants to try thats when she will again.

I agree with you, you are coming to terms with a lot of your past and seeing you have your own patterns. Have you considered a CODA meeting? This is Codependent Anonymous, Al Anon is similar in their support. This is free and they have meetings everyday in some areas.

I agree with PF Change, you have a lot of grief work to do. Meaning you lost someone in your life who gave you something you feel you never got from your parents. This person meant a lot to you and grieving this loss is important. A therapist can help you with this. I'm glad to hear you are working towards meeting with one in your future. Take care of you, it's your turn and you are worth it. 

i didnt know there was CODA meeting, so no, how do you get into something like that? where would i look to find a place?

how do i do grief work? whats the mean? i've cried, i've been to his furnal, i moved away from all that. i've started a new life... . kinda, sorta:S i think back sometimes and... . ok no i dont really know im ok with everything being dead, his hopes, his dream, him... . but what am i to do about that

Thank you a bunch, i am worth it

[Suzn]

Your own growth is yours, no one can take that from you

yes i know in an intellectual level that, but not emotionally... .

I understand. Learning how to balance our emotions and our intellect is being in a state called wisemind. We don't want to leave our emotions out of the equation, just not to let them control us.

i actually dont think "helping" and controlling are the same thing at all.


It can be

how can it be? i can understand with a child and a adult up to a certain point like "no running in front of cars" or "dont play with guns" stuff like that. but not with an adult.

I'll give you an example of what I did that was controlling, in my mind at the time I thought I was helping. I have a sibling who is an addict. I gave and gave money to "help" him, paid his bills from time to time, helped with expenses mainly. I thought if I can just give him a step up this one last time he will see the light and stop getting himself into messes. In reality, I was just taking care of expenses so he would have more money to spend on the addiction. I was helping because I feared him dying from this addiction, I wanted him to stop this behavior because of "my" fear. He wouldn't keep a job and why would he? He was getting financial assistance from me and a parent and who knows who else. I stepped in the way of his hitting bottom.

As hard as it was to step out of that dynamic I did. Instead I learned new and healthier ways to cope with my fears. It made a huge difference. I learned how to deal with my own anxiety and this effected every part of my life, not just with my r/s with my sibling.

i feel like up to a certain point i am. i feel like i honestly know when she needs to fall, when i need to let go, when i need to let her do her thing, so to speak. of course its super hard on me but i feel like I’m getting it... . when she was with a really abusive ass hole, didn’t stand in her way, i wanted her to learn so she would never be back there again... . she hasn’t talked with him since... . and that’s huge.

That is huge. It's really good you see this.

my parents haven’t changed though... . i believe somewhere in me that people aren’t even capable of change, they ALWAYS relapse.

I understand this feeling too, to always feel that at any time the other shoe is going to drop. People are human and it's hard to accept that sometimes. Especially when we have had role models that do relapse.

i didnt know there was CODA meeting, so no, how do you get into something like that? where would i look to find a place?

You can google CODA meetings in your city.

how do i do grief work? whats the mean? i've cried, i've been to his furnal, i moved away from all that. i've started a new life... . kinda, sorta:S i think back sometimes and... . ok no i dont really know im ok with everything being dead, his hopes, his dream, him... . but what am i to do about that

By focusing on you. Your attention has been distracted by your friend. Meaning for some time you have allowed yourself to take care of someone else instead of focusing on your needs. It's healthy that that's changing. Losing him was a big loss for you, a painful one. It's easy to distract ourselves by being busy with other peoples lives instead of our own. When given the time to focus on you these emotions can surface and it's important and healthy to let them flow through.   

[qwaszx]

I'll give you an example of what I did that was controlling, in my mind at the time I thought I was helping. I have a sibling who is an addict. I gave and gave money to "help" him, paid his bills from time to time, helped with expenses mainly. I thought if I can just give him a step up this one last time he will see the light and stop getting himself into messes. In reality, I was just taking care of expenses so he would have more money to spend on the addiction. I was helping because I feared him dying from this addiction, I wanted him to stop this behavior because of "my" fear. He wouldn't keep a job and why would he? He was getting financial assistance from me and a parent and who knows who else. I stepped in the way of his hitting bottom.

As hard as it was to step out of that dynamic I did. Instead I learned new and healthier ways to cope with my fears. It made a huge difference. I learned how to deal with my own anxiety and this affected every part of my life, not just with my r/s with my sibling.

i understand this, when she first moved home i gave her about oh 1500(she’s paid me back)... . but it was a loan sorta, is this the same? i felt sorry for her because a)she lied and said she couldnt do physical labor anymore, which she loves, i didnt fully know it was a lie but i had a hunch and b)said she couldn’t find a job, c) she really wasnt stable it all, i really dont think she could have held down a job at the point. d) i didnt want her to go without... . she said she needed it... . needless to say i haven’t given her anything in a year now, and i dont plan to in the future... . and she doesnt ask me anymore for anything, all we do is talk.

in my whole family about half of them are addicts(if not more), or in their late 50's recovering and doing pretty well. So the real ness that some of them just never do recover does scare me. my one uncles a hereon addict, has aids and stopped for about a year maybe in his whole life. my dad always goes back, lies to me all the time, and pretty well is just waiting to die i feel. we've let my uncles who were coming off stay with us at times because you have to be clean a certain amount of days in order to get into the rehabs, and those first couple days are the hardest time

I understand this feeling too, to always feel that at any time the other shoe is going to drop. People are human and it's hard to accept that sometimes. Especially when we have had role models that do relapse.

exactly:)

By focusing on you. Your attention has been distracted by your friend. Meaning for some time you have allowed yourself to take care of someone else instead of focusing on your needs. It's healthy that that's changing. Losing him was a big loss for you, a painful one. It's easy to distract ourselves by being busy with other people’s lives instead of our own. When given the time to focus on you these emotions can surface and it's important and healthy to let them flow through.   

i do:) I make sometime for myself, maybe not enoough. i have days where i fall apart and she just shuts up and listens(not stuff about her) the flow part im not always good at, sometimes all start to get somewhere, but its not normally good timing and i dont cry or do that sorta stuff in front of people if i can help it, so i pack it all away for a time when im alone. i mean when my boss died i stuck myself to his girlfriend, and thats what i did all the time, so i can understand why its not all done yet. my attention was on her needs, not mine. but at night or when im not around anyone i do let myself feel the crap emotions, and try and let them flow where they need to but only if the timing is "right" im ridiculously good at hiding/blocking my negative emotions, but at some point they always come out. To the point when I go in to a therapist they don’t think anything’s wrong at all and ask why I’m there. 

[Suzn]

It's good you have some reciprocity with your friend when you need to talk too. I get what you mean about finding the "right time" to let tears flow. I tried to never cry in front of others too. That kind of cut off my vulnerability, my "human-ness", to others. Sometimes it's ok for everyone to cry together, speaking of your situation with your bosses gf. You get to be just as human as everyone else that way. I can share what my T told me when I was working on letting things flow. She said "I don't care where you are, even if you have to excuse yourself to go to the rest room, if you get that knot in your throat from a need to cry do not swallow it." She emphasized the word not.

I can see how it would seem a therapist doesn't see what's wrong when you go in. A therapist needs time to get to know you, they only see you for 50 minutes at a time. You know why you are there and that's what's important in the beginning. They are just as human as we are. They don't make assumptions on one session, they know there are plenty of nuances that make us all individual. 

[qwaszx]

 

i dont know i can allow myself that vulnerability, to go to a wash room and cry... . everyone would know... . my eyes would give me away. what if i cant stop? i dont know how to do that... . so i have to stop caring altogether what other people think? what about my job, i cant just go up to my boss and say i have to go deal with something, and leave, can i? my personal life and my job do not mix. i wonder why thats so important? i've always thought putting it out on another time would be ok, because im still getting it out.

i feel like the last time i went in got my assessment, was told she'd call, i never heard back for her, so i feel like i dont want to waste there time, maybe theres nothing wrong with me(though my mothers been telling me since forever there is), maybe they dont get back because there are more important cases they need to be looking at, i dont want someone else in more of a need to miss out cuz im going... . i feel mines just petty. then again i think feelings are silly to

[Suzn]

i dont know i can allow myself that vulnerability

That's ok qwaszx. This is your recovery, you do what you feel comfortable with and when.

to go to a wash room and cry... . everyone would know... . my eyes would give me away. what if i cant stop?

Everyone would know what? That you are human and you experience emotions? My eyes have given me away a few times and guess what happened? A time or two someone asked if I was ok. I answered yes, just dealing with something personal. Crying stops when you are done crying. It's a healthy release. My T told me to practice this because she knew, since I told her, that I had hidden my emotions and kept them inside most of my life. That I had shame surrounding showing my emotions, it was not ok in my mind to not always be ok when I was a child. This was my experience, it may not be yours. 

i dont know how to do that... . so i have to stop caring altogether what other people think?

To a certain degree, yes. What matters is what you think.

what about my job, i cant just go up to my boss and say i have to go deal with something, and leave, can i?

Well, I didn't announce that I was going to the washroom to cry. I just went. Or, I would go take a short walk to be alone, take a breather, sometimes there were tears sometimes not. I am fortunate to be able to do this, however, in some jobs I can see where this could be difficult.

i've always thought putting it out on another time would be ok, because im still getting it out.

It is ok to do what you feel comfortable with.

i feel like the last time i went in got my assessment, was told she'd call, i never heard back for her, so i feel like i dont want to waste there time, maybe theres nothing wrong with me(though my mothers been telling me since forever there is), maybe they dont get back because there are more important cases they need to be looking at, i dont want someone else in more of a need to miss out cuz im going... . i feel mines just petty.

I'm assuming you are talking about a therapist? Maybe, someone wrote your phone number down wrong and they can't reach you. Even if you were to call and remind them, if they needed to call you back at that point, they still wouldn't know they had a wrong number. This is just one possibility, there are other possibilities. I understand how you feel about wasting their time, I felt that way with my T too at first. You are not a waste of her time. This is how I look at this today, my T is one of my most important resources to my recovery. If everyone felt their needs weren't important my T wouldn't have a practice. She doesn't feel I am a waste of her time and today neither do I. When I need her, she's there. You are worth your T's time qwaszx. Therapy isn't necessarily about something "wrong" it's about getting an unbiased perspective from someone trained to give you additional insight to the insight you already have. 

[qwaszx]

Everyone would know what? That you are human and you experience emotions? My eyes have given me away a few times and guess what happened?

hehe the top part makes me laugh:) ya they would know im human! lmao god forgid that happen. they dont think i have emotions, no one ever knows what am thinking or feeling. i get a lot of people confused.  

My T told me to practice this because she knew, since I told her, that I had hidden my emotions and kept them inside most of my life. That I had shame surrounding showing my emotions, it was not ok in my mind to not always be ok when I was a child. This was my experience, it may not be yours.  smiley

ya i was taught emotions were not able to be expressed, that you should hide them. not to cry... . rather harshly. i was taught that you should only be what other people want, that its not ok to have bad days and flaws. always say the right things... . i personaliy like that im not perfect... .

I'm assuming you are talking about a therapist? Maybe, someone wrote your phone number down wrong and they can't reach you. Even if you were to call and remind them, if they needed to call you back at that point, they still wouldn't know they had a wrong number. This is just one possibility, there are other possibilities. I understand how you feel about wasting their time, I felt that way with my T too at first. You are not a waste of her time. This is how I look at this today, my T is one of my most important resources to my recovery. If everyone felt their needs weren't important my T wouldn't have a practice. She doesn't feel I am a waste of her time and today neither do I. When I need her, she's there. You are worth your T's time qwaszx. Therapy isn't necessarily about something "wrong" it's about getting an unbiased perspective from someone trained to give you additional insight to the insight you already have. 

yeah, sorry, i was:) i told her i was a runner, im not sticking around long enough to reach out again. when i move and get settled somewhere else, i'll look again. i have one already lined up i believe:)