She says she's giving up on me and D2

[waverider]

When sis eventually turned to drugs, it was a free for all!  Man, all the family issues could be directed right towards her!

yep, alcohol and med abuse made her the no hope loser. Yet alcoholism killed her dad during the same time, but that was hidden because everyone liked him and he did it in secret.

Anyway lets no get too far ahead of Zaqserts issue and hijack this thread, as issues like this are a long way off hopefully...

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

Point of this being Zaqsert, dysfunctional backgrounds can have a long lasting ripple effect if you dont keep a centered influnce on kids. Hiding and denying there is an issue can be extremly harmful. It is best if they know Mum "acts a little nuts" at times, rather than just put it in the dont mention it basket as though its not happening

[zaqsert]

Phoebe, my wife sounds quite a bit like your mom.  She has an uncanny way of not reaching out to others, expecting them to reach out to her, and getting angry when they don't.  With my FOO she will even try to tell me that they ignored her despite the fact that she was being really nice to them.  She used to try to pit me against them too.  Now I finally learned to validate her feelings (at least to some extent) and then not take the bait.

Waverider, no worries about any thread hijacking.  I appreciated the tangent.  Quite a bit of it applies to my situation.

I do need to take care of myself some more, to help all this get to my head less.

Great point too about talking about mommy's anger and bad moods rather than trying to ignore them altogether.  Sometimes my daughter will even ask "What happened to mommy?"

Thanks again for your support and suggestions!

[momtara]

My husband used to just stare at our infant son when he was in a triggered mood.  I hated that.  Our son would cry, not understanding why daddy wouldn't respond to him.  It only happened once in a while, but it was hard.

You are clearly doing a good job and doing the best you can to shield your D2 from your wife's childish emotions and her putting adult emotions/motives on your daughter.

I think it gets very hard to do.  I am separated from my husband now.  I admire you for hanging in there.  Sometimes you can keep it up and protect your kid and make it work.  I'm glad you had a nice vacation anyway.

[allibaba]

My T suggested that the first 3 years, and even up to the first 5 years, are particularly important for children.  She said that if I can be present and very stable for my daughter during those years, it can drastically reduce the chances of her developing a personality disorder.  There may still be plenty of stuff for her to work out in therapy, but she will be off to a better start.

So I feel like I'm "staying" until she is 5 and will then reevaluate the situation.  If my wife and I ever do divorce, I will do everything I can to get as much time as possible with my daughter.  But the uncertainty of the legal outcome is a risk that I am unwilling to take right now.  Hey, I'm not exactly adding any bright and happy notes here either.

Zaqsert,

I have posted before and I want to commend you on working so hard on a difficult situation.  My mom is BPD and my dad was my rock.  I didn't turn out perfectly normal (ha ha obviously because I am married to a uBPDh) but I have no PD (I have been tested).  I am a successful, self-sufficient professional woman and mother and its because my dad was there for me.  As I got older he'd say, "I love your mother more than anything but she's acting crazy... . don't worry about it... . it isn't you."  He didn't have the tools that we have and he was terrible at boundaries.  But simply the fact that he could recognize the behavior for what it was, not get emotionally enmeshed, and continue to provide stability for me -- went a long way.  You are making a huge sacrifice for your daughter and going about it in as healthy a way as possible.  

Being consitent with your D along with lots of hugs, kisses and affirmations will go a long way towards protecting her. Many who grow up in dysfunctionality can cope as long as there is one strong stable parent. It is when the dysfuntional one dominates and cowers the other that reall damage is done.

Agree wholeheartedly from experience.  My dad wasn't good with emotions but he was my rock and he didn't let my mom completely dominate.

[zaqsert]

Thanks, Momtara and Allibaba.  At the moment I'm wondering how much longer I can hang in there, but I'm still hanging in there.  Having followed your posts, you both clearly show a lot of strength in what you are going through.

I just found out today that my boss thinks I'm not doing a good job, and he transferred part of my responsibilities to someone else, at least temporarily.  I couldn't even feel much of the anger over it because I was too busy caring for D2 after my wife dysregulated again today, split me way black, and went on to ignore our daughter.  It wasn't until after I had D2 in bed that I could start to feel the anger and disappointment over my job situation.  And a significant factor in why I have not been able to perform well has been all the drama at home.  Accepting, detaching, and the rest of the lessons have helped, but perhaps a bit too late.  Well, maybe this is something I should take up on the Taking Personal Inventory board -- I'm not quite sure where it belongs.  At the very least, I will set up a session with my T.

[musicfan42]

Hi Zaqsert,

I remember reading your post about wanting help with a DEARMAN script before and then I happened to see this thread.

I read something helpful today and I thought I'd share it with you-

"The care you give yourself is the care you give your loved one"

I actually saw it randomly on a carer's website however it really appealed to me. It's understandable that you're under stress given your current circumstances however I would urge you to take good care of yourself and be gentle on yourself. I think that setting an appointment with your T is a great idea. Even little acts of self-care such as going for a walk will help. Keep seeking out support on the website-you seem like a great dad to your daughter

[zaqsert]

Hi Musicfan42.  Thanks.  I do need to take better care of myself.  Something as simple as a walk does sound like a good idea.  Tomorrow I'm going to get a massage.  My wife booked it for the two of us.  I'm pretty sure she will go through with it too since she needs it, but I can only imagine the looks I may get on the way there and back.  It's good that those tend not to get to me anymore.

I really appreciate the support that I get from so many of you here.

On a positive note, it seems I may be getting better at using SET.  Background:

- D2 dropped her fork on the floor at the beginning of dinner and asked me to pick it up.

- I smiled and told her that since she dropped it on purpose, I will not pick it up for her.  I reminded her that we do not drop things from the table.

- My wife told her it's not nice to drop things like that on purpose.  She said "We've talked about this before, so because you dropped it on purpose, no more hit_ after dinner."

- I thought to myself that she should have warned first, but instead I just repeated that "we don't drop things from the table on purpose."

- Then I decided to validate our D2.  I said "Maybe you dropped it so that we would pick it up for you."

- And followed it up with a new option: "Since you dropped it on purpose, you can get down and pick it up, then I'll wipe it off for you so you can use it."

- During my last two sentences, my wife got really angry.  She said I undermined her "again".

- I really had no idea what I had done to make her feel this way.

After I finished putting D2 in bed, I went over to my wife and said:

S:  I said something that clearly made you feel undermined.

E:  It feels really crappy to be undermined.

T:  I need you to explain what I said that made you feel this way.

She paused.  Then, still furious, told me that when I offered D2 a reason why she might have dropped the fork, then that undermined my wife's statement that dropping the fork was "not nice".  It felt like such bizarre logic that I just said thanks for explaining it to me.  At least I got an answer, which is more than I have gotten on other occasions.  She also said that at no time did I tell D2 that I agree with my wife, further undermining.  I ignored this part.

[Viso]

zaqsert:

WOW... . you are coping so well. This is almost exactly what happened to me. My BPD H just decided he gave up on me and doesnt want to communicate with me ever again. That's because after 8 years I still do not know what triggers him to get upset and I dont know how to comfor him. Even though he is not talking, he didnt mean separate. I still do my part as a housewife, housework, fixing meals and paying the bills. He just talks to me like normal when the kids and others are around and gives no response or some really mean hurtful words when we are alone. Only say something when he wants me to buy him cigarettes or food. Did your wife do that? Like ignore you when you guys are alone? It's been two weeks now and I have been texting him and telling him I love him and stuff everyday. Getting no response and I am not sure if I am in the right direction. With my 1 and 3 year old, my H gets super jealous when they come hug me before him when we pick them up. And if they call mommy first instead of daddy in the morning when they get up. Your W may be a bit over board already, but what I do to keep my H not feeling too unimportant is that I make my H do certain things with the kids and I don't get involved unless he asks me to. Like he would be in charge of doing all the baths, taking them to swimming and outdoor play. He is doing okay in front of the kids and once in a while he would raise his voice in a way that my 3 year old gets scared, but immediately he will explain to him why he is upset. When my H gets upset at me and starts raising his voice, I thought my 3 year old to say ":)addy, don't be upset" and he would soften and hold his anger till the kids go to bed at least. I am worried too about my son because it seems like he is losing his temper very easily lately and he is unsure why himself when I talk to him. I hope it's just part of a normal "terrible 2 n 3" stage.

Counsellor did suggest leaving him... . because his action is a form of mental abuse... . and in the long run, it will just damage me and the kids. But I still love him and want to try until he gets to a point where he is out of control even in front of the kids. Is there any hope?

[allibaba]

I just found out today that my boss thinks I'm not doing a good job, and he transferred part of my responsibilities to someone else, at least temporarily.  

Hey there Zaqsert,

One of the things that I have struggled with (at times) is doing a good job at work while all the craziness and drama was going on.  For me personally, I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve and I have history with my company and a good professional reputation... . so when my husband started to lose it... . I just told my boss.  It turns out that his wife is Bipolar and he went through a time that culminated in him physically dragging her to the doctor for medication after what he described as 2 yrs of hell.  I got the impression that he never would have shared that information if I hadn't stepped forward. 

Now I tell him anytime that there is a major dyregulation and so he knows when I get less efficient that there is something going on.  He appreciates this because he knows when there are times where my focus will be elsewhere.  This is the solution that works for me only because my boss and company respect me very much.  It could have easily backfired but to date it works for me.

One of my boundaries is that my husband cannot interfere with me at work.  I used to drop everything and run home if there was an issue.  I cannot do that anymore.  One of the ways that I protect myself and my family including my husband is by protecting my job.

Just thought that I would throw those 2 cents in.  Hopefully they are helpful.

[Blazing Star]

I'll have to find out at what age I could start getting some therapy for D2 (soon to be D3).  I know we've talked about this before -- any leg up for her would be great.  Paraphrasing Waverider, to help give her some more stability among the dysfunction.

My T usually won't see anyone under 6, but feels as she knows me and knows how things are with my D4 that she (D4) would be okay with it now. So I guess it may depend upon the therapist?

Love Blazing Star

[george2]

Zaqsert,

I came back to your thread to read your experience because it brings me comfort, again.  I feel like we have such parallel situations, except you are so much more mature and further along in your handling of wife than I am.  I am here, because once again, same as always, my dBPDw has shredded me tonight.  Amazingly even after a great day and night, where I tried to do everything right.  One miscalculated statement on my part, because it was late, I am tired, horrendous week at work, stressful few days financially, and I slipped, and spoke a hard truth.  She had lost something that we found tonight was in my car, and she actually got irritated with me and attempted to blame me for not finding it in my car yet... .I had had my fill, because she has been extremely petty and emotional all week, and I said, "how come you always blame everybody else when something happens... .", well I saw the switch in her eye when I said it, I am sure you know the one, and right then I knew I had sealed my fate for the evening... .so now she is divorcing me again and wishes she never met me - not to mention that we have been married 10 years and have 2 children, then tonight she wants to put D to bed - who told her mid routine that she wants daddy - so now I have turned our daughter against her, and we have some kind of weird relationship, according to my wife.  Sometimes, I really get sick of playing the game, but what is the choice... .I refuse to give up one day with my children if we were to not be married... .I am so highly irritated with this turn of events tonight, I don't think I even know what is normal any more - I live on egg shells.  Sorry for the whining and pity party, I just needed somewhere to vent. 

[zaqsert]

Hi George2,

It's really tough riding that emotional roller coaster.  I'm sorry you're going through all that.

If you don't mind my probing, I'm curious about a few things... .

To what extent do you feel responsible for your wife's feelings or her happiness?

To what extent do you believe you have control over her feelings or happiness?

To what extent do you feel obligated to try to help her feel better anyway?

If she were, actually, to divorce you, to what extent to you think you would be able to change her mind.

I suppose what I'm getting at are FOG (fear, obligation, and guilt) and whether you feel you are focused on what you need for you and your kids vs. what your wife tells you she needs, which I'm guessing changes often.

I think some of the turning points for me were:

- Finally realizing that no matter how much I tried, I could not make my wife feel better or feel happier.  Her needs constantly changed, and I kept ending up a few steps behind, over and over.  So I stopped trying.  I am trying to get better at validating her feelings, but not getting on the roller coaster with her.

- Some combination of realizing that it's ok for me to enforce my own boundaries (including not being verbally abused) and realizing that I have no control over what she chooses to do, seems to have gotten me to a point where if she really were to leave, I don't think I would stop her.

- Each time she threatens to <fill in the blank> and then acts as though that never happened, I see her threats as less and less credible.  So I get less and less worked up.

- Practice, practice, practice (with the tools).  Less than a week ago my wife dysregulated and accused me of turning our D2 (almost D3) against her.  I walked away from that conversation faster than I ever had before, so I had far less exposure to verbal/emotional abuse and, for all I know, she may have had less time for the feelings to set in.  We barely interacted for the rest of that night.  By the next morning, it was as if nothing had ever happened.

Hang in there, stay strong for you and your kids, and keep posting.

Since this thread has gotten kind of long, feel free to start a new one of your own since it may get more views and responses addressed specifically at what you are going through.

[waverider]

Its times like that that causes me an internalized eye roll, then just get on with life. The lack of consistency means that no matter what wild threat or promise is made it will blow over and doesn't necessarily need my involvement. Which in fact can often prolong it

I am doing what I believe to be right, and that's enough for me.

Sometimes i too often "loose it" and react not the best, make things worse. Thats OK too we are just human, but I have learned to get over it quicker too.

[george2]

Thanks Zaqsert and waverider.  I appreciate the support.

Zaqsert, to answer your questions, generally, I believe I too often feel responsible for her moods, emotions, outbursts, thus, her condition.  Rationally, I know this not to be true, but living the life with a BPDw has made me completely reactionary to her, and whatever mood she is rolling into.  What is really crazy, is that she accuses me every day of being controlling, but I feel I am constantly controlled by her moods.  I think since the birth of our D4 and now S1, I have even been worse, because I feel like I am constantly trying to prevent the cycle to dysregulation.  I really feel exhausted most of the time, and do find so much joy and solace in my children - but she manages to try and ruin that too - again, accusing me of turning our daughter against her, "mothering" our children and taking her place, and choosing my daughter's side over her.  As far as her divorcing me, I think I spend the hour or so afterward trying to convince her not to divorce me, filling her full of co-dependent BS, and then after she comes back to earth, getting so angry with her.  I really would not fear the divorce if it wasn't for the children.  It terrifies me to think she would try and take the children and I would see less of them - yes, that terrifies me and gives her power over me with the divorce card... .I am pathetic.  I am a highly trained professional in my job, and yet, with my wife and her anger (screaming, throwing and breaking things that mean something to me, threatening to leave me), I am pathetic.

Tonight was interesting however, as she and I had made plans to have dinner at friends house.  30 minutes before we were supposed to be there, she calls and says she is not going, she feels sick (although she had been dragging the children around all afternoon shopping).  I first flipped out (wrong, I know), because it is once again embarrassing making excuses for her changeable and flaky ways - but then I decided to take D4 with me and go eat, let the kids play, and enjoy it - which I actually did, probably too much.  When I got home she was a happy as can be - but then because I wasn't excited about all the stuff she bought today, which she forced me to look at, she got mad and said I put too much pressure on her to dress the kids a certain way, etc... .(again, this is my fault?)    

[allibaba]

George2,

It sounds like you have a good understanding of your role in things (you know intellectually that you are NOT causing the issues but that you have allowed her to behave badly and placated her).

It sounds like you don't want to continue this way.

Where can you start making changes?

In my life, in the interest of keeping the peace I let my husband get away with murder and then he got worse and worse to the point where we had no peace (ever).  When it got to be too much I started making some changes.  

It terrifies me to think she would try and take the children and I would see less of them - yes, that terrifies me and gives her power over me with the divorce card... .I am pathetic.  I am a highly trained professional in my job, and yet, with my wife and her anger (screaming, throwing and breaking things that mean something to me, threatening to leave me), I am pathetic.

I am a highly trained professional too.  I remember feeling incredibly pathetic that my husband controlled things the way that he did.  If it were me, I would select the most dangerous and damaging behavior and start with some boundaries.  I'm not going to lie -- its the toughest step in the world.  There are lots of men on these boards that have advise on how to protect yourself.  

Does anyone else KNOW what is happening in your house (therapist, family, friends)?  I found that no longer protecting my husband's bad behavior with silence and excuses was important for me.

[zaqsert]

Hi George2,

Good for you for going with your D4 to dinner at your friend's house!  Keep doing things that you need, both for yourself and with your kids.

Similar to allibaba, I also stopped making excuses for my wife earlier this year.  If she decides not to go somewhere, that's her choice.  I will no longer cover up for her.  I feared my wife's wrath at first, but now it feels better to be honest and not continue to enable her.

pwBPD (people with BPD) tend to project more than others.  Your wife may not like that she is controlling.  But if she can't handle the fact that she is controlling, she may project it onto you instead, accuse you of being controlling, and tell you how horrible you are.  As I've come to terms with that about my wife, it's interesting how her projections can often give me insight into what may be going on in her mind.

It sounds like you've figured out by now that trying to prevent the cycle to dysregulation is a futile feat.  You may manage to do it successfully on some occasions, but her needs and triggers will change.  What works once may not work the next time, and if you defuse one bomb then another one beside it may go off.  It's really hard after playing the fixer role for so many years.  The thing is, you can't really fix it.  Only your wife can learn how to regulate her own emotions.

Everyone is different, so I can't say to what extent your wife would actually follow through with any threats of divorce.  In my case, I used to plead with her not to divorce me and pleeeease come to marital therapy with me.  Then I started to treat the threats as verbal abuse and started to walk away from them instead.  Interestingly, I have not heard threats of divorce recently.

I can also relate to being a highly trained professional, on my knees (or worse) at home, which affected my work too for a while.  I suppose that's why many call BPD "crazy making".

As allibaba mentioned, whenever you make changes, be prepared for an extinction burst.  My wife's was big.  Allibaba's husband's was huge.  But if you hang in there long enough, they tend to get past it.

At the same time, I agree that you should hope for the best but prepare for the worst.  I commend you for working on your marriage.  All of us here will support you in whatever your goals may be.  Meanwhile, the protection that allibaba refers to is that some extinction bursts are massive.  I personally found it eye-opening to read some of the threads over on the legal board.  After I got past the initial shock, I felt that if things ever do turn for the worst, I will be better prepared to protect myself and our daughter.  I hope I will never need it, but it is comforting to feel that chances are pretty good that I will be ok (and not blindsided).

[george2]

Hello Zaqsert and Allibaba - I cannot tell you comforting it has been reading your posts.     I have felt so alone fighting this illness for so many years - I would be lying if I said there aren't many nights I have just cried and prayed and ask "Why?"... .I consider myself an intelligent person, and yet this illness has floored me for so long.  The conditioning has been trying to predict the tidal wave and stop it before it crashes into me - but as you know, that is nearly impossible.  I have gained the best success by working some of the tools - as silly as they say coming out of my mouth - they seem to defuse her.  For example.  My mother, God love her, is a completely selfless woman who would give the coat off her back to someone.  She of course, has beat her head against the wall for the ten years my W and I have been married.  She actually has done remarkable, and has given her so much time, love and gifts - dropped everything to see her, and tries to consistently be there.  The hardest thing for me to still comprehend and stomach, is how mean, vicious and venomous my W can talk about her to me - so I found myself in the unenviable cannot win situation of trying to explain my Mother's comments to my W, which in her brain, made it that much worse.   She can on the other hand be so amazing to my Mother and can and has done many things for her... .it is just the other side, when the worm turns, and it is so hard to hear - granted, I am very close to my Mother and she is in her 70's - it just breaks my heart to hear the filth that can pour out of my wife's mouth.  If you met my wife though, she is the sweetest, kindest, and most timid person (most of the time) - I really think I am the only one that sees this side of her - although my parents have now seen episodes.  Sorry for the long question, but the question is:  How do you recommend dealing with this about my Mother - I have found the only thing that works has been the times I have lied to her, and agreed with her twisted view of my Mother.  I do understand the root, as most older women, my Mother can speak bluntly at times, not cruel, just truthfully - and of course, I have discovered that someone with BPD cannot handle the truth when they are dysregulated.  Thanks for allowing me to type here.  Good night to all. 

[waverider]

Sorry for the long question, but the question is:  How do you recommend dealing with this about my Mother - I have found the only thing that works has been the times I have lied to her, and agreed with her twisted view of my Mother.  I do understand the root, as most older women, my Mother can speak bluntly at times, not cruel, just truthfully - and of course, I have discovered that someone with BPD cannot handle the truth when they are dysregulated.  Thanks for allowing me to type here.  Good night to all.  

This is a good question, and most of us have had to deal with this. This is were you have to accept their reality is twisted and you are unlikely to convince them otherwise. As you realize though, agreeing to things that go against your morals just to keep the peace eventually eats you up.

It is hard but you have to let a lot of this wash and simply use empathy and support, while keeping your truth. But it is not necessary to convince her of your truth. Agreeing with her will provide intermittent reinforcement. So she will believe that if she perceiveres long enough she can get you to agree against your will. So NEVER do this. But leave her to her opinions.

eg If she believes your mother is a witch that just crawled down the chimney, don't try saying she is not. Focus more on saying that it must be awful for your wife to think about people like that. You are glad that you don't think of your mother like that. That is a short example of SET... You hear what she is saying, you are empathizing that it must feel bad to think that. Your truth is that you dont see it that way. At the same time you are not invalidating the way your wife feels.

Not saying it will avoid conflict, but it will reduce the fuel you add to it, and you will feel less frustrated in yourself. Neither will you feel like you are betraying your mother.

My partner has this issue with her own mother in the sense of oversensitive pwBPD being spoken to in a frank no nonsense way. Things are misunderstood and misconstrued the whole time. They are toxic to each other

[allibaba]

... .it is just the other side, when the worm turns, and it is so hard to hear - granted, I am very close to my Mother and she is in her 70's - it just breaks my heart to hear the filth that can pour out of my wife's mouth.  If you met my wife though, she is the sweetest, kindest, and most timid person (most of the time) - I really think I am the only one that sees this side of her - although my parents have now seen episodes. 

I'm really, really glad that your parents have seen some of the episodes.  Do you ever talk openly with your mom about your wife's mental illness.  I found that calling it MENTAL ILLNESS and being really honest about it with those who are close and those that I can trust has made a world of difference for me.  It keeps me rooted in REALITY or at least MY REALITY .  Sometimes we can even have a laugh about it.  My husband is under stress at the moment and yesterday he actually told me that "I am the reason that the US has the problems that it has right now."  Before I might have gotten really depressed that my husband felt that I was that bad... .now I can laugh.  It is actually funny.  I'm American but I haven't live in the US for YEARS and even if I did I'm just a grain of sand... .how could I cause the US's problems? 

Sorry for the long question, but the question is:  How do you recommend dealing with this about my Mother - I have found the only thing that works has been the times I have lied to her, and agreed with her twisted view of my Mother.  I do understand the root, as most older women, my Mother can speak bluntly at times, not cruel, just truthfully - and of course, I have discovered that someone with BPD cannot handle the truth when they are dysregulated.  

  I agree wholeheartedly with waverider.  Sometimes my husband goes off on the most bizarre tirades about my family.  My father is also in his 70's and he doesn't have a nasty bone in his body.  He has Alzheimer's and its hard to hear the horrible things that come out of my husband's mouth about him. 

My husband sometimes says that my family's lack of organization and structure and morals and values caused my dad to 'lose his mind' (haven't heard it in a while but this is an example).  Now my dad was the most anally organized human being I have ever met.  He woke up at 4am every morning.  Did most of the housework... .walked the dogs... .worked full time (my mom is high functioning BPD).  He used to hang up his trousers with the fly facing the WEST, same hangers for all clothing, 3 inches between each hanger.  Clearly his Alzheimer's was not caused by a lack of structure in his life.  I do not JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) my actions or beliefs with my husband when he is dyregulated.  If he wants to believe that my dad caused his illness... .fine what business is it of mine.  I know my truth in my heart and that is what matters to me.

Now if he starts to make comments about me being a disgusting human being... .lack of organization, structure etc and it is becoming verbally abusive then its time for boundaries.

Waverider provided good guidance on another posting

demands>disengage

abuse>boundaries

If my husband starts demanding that I spend less time with my dad.  I disengage with the conversation (change topics) and move on.  If he starts to be abusive then its time for boundaries.

We're so glad that you are here!  Oh once a pwBPD stops getting the reaction that they are looking for from you on certain topics they usually move on to try to find something else that will trigger you.