Why do BPD Daughter's hate mothers so much

[Fay]

Hello All,

I am wondering if anyone knows why BPD's hate mothers so much?  Reading through posts the common point I read over and over no contact with mom or kids can't see BPD's mother. BPD daughter hate's me... . won't talk to me... . angry at me... .   I was just stunned and I too am among you. 

Can anyone tell me?  OH and no it is not the fact "we" are safe to be angry at not buying that one any more. 

Thanks

Fay

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[sunshineplease]

Such a good question, Fay. I'm only guessing here (not a P or a T, though I've got enough hours in the trenches to qualify for at least an associate degree!), but I think it's a couple of things:

1) Normal developmental separation on steroids: Many, if not most, teenage girls act out at least somewhat when separating from their mothers. In this culture, individuation seems to require a certain amount of disdain and disrespect. Add emotional dysregulation of BPD to the mix, and watch out!

2) There was a thread awhile back about the family dynamics that are common with BPD. One of them -- which at least one member said was recognized by her Toronto therapist -- is strong mothers and passive fathers. That would make individuation harder as well.

3) Our family therapist added that "highly functional" moms made things hard for their daughters, just by being capable. If a mother is smart and hard-working and loving, imagine how hard it is to disdain that mother. How do you separate/define yourself if you respect the person you want to get away from/be different than?

4) In our culture, the mother is normally the one home -- enforcing the rules, dealing with day-to-day dust-ups, doing the "menial" labor BPD people so abhor. We're in direct firing range!

5) Another cultural problem that may be a factor is mother-guilt. So many stay-at-home or underemployed mothers (of which I am one) feel guilt or shame about not making more money or not using their talents to their fullest. I think that might make some of us focus on our children more than we might if we didn't feel the need of some validation ourselves. Even if we are aware and try not to add our personal issues/worries to our children's burdens, the kids intuit them quite well.

Just some random thoughts for a Sunday morning.

Oy!

[lbjnltx]

BPD is a disorder that manifests itself most in interpersonal relationships.  How much more interpersonal can it get than a mother and her child?

As many pwBPD age and then marry they shift the intensity of the interpersonal relationship to their spouse and less falls on the parent.

[Reality]

2) There was a thread awhile back about the family dynamics that are common with BPD. One of them -- which at least one member said was recognized by her Toronto therapist -- is strong mothers and passive fathers. That would make individuation harder as well.

sunshineplease,

You have a great memory!  I think that was my post.  A T at the Toronto Centre for Addictions and Mental Health, (one parent calls it a box with no doors and another author has said they spend half the time getting people Off drugs and the other half ON drugs, but which is world-renowned because of the connection with the University and pharma) which nonetheless has an excellent but tiny BPD clinic, said that the mothers tend to be over-involved and have highly sensitive temperaments and the fathers are under-involved and yet VERY involved with their ego-driven work lives.  Gunderson says that a highly reactive mother is not a good fit for a child with emerging BPD criteria, which makes sense.  A highly-sensitive mother whose child is highly-sensitive would be more attuned to that child's needs, yet might also not be centred enough to provide the necessary structure and authority.  Under-involvement from a highly reactive mother might be like normal involvement for others.

Reality

[six]

Interesting thread.  I will just add that my DS25 is much more reactive to me (his mom) than to his dad.  we definitely fall into the category of over-involved mother and more passive father.  so it is not just daughters, but sons too, that can be much more reactive to their mothers than to their fathers.  I also see that my DS25 has issues with his adult sisters, but none whatsoever with his teenage brother.  In general , women seem to be a problem for him, which I think clearly relates right back to me 

[sunshineplease]

And in "defense" of mothers everywhere, I'd just like to say that we are always the first to be thrown under the proverbial bus. Not that we don't deserve it sometimes, but the societal dynamic is, itself, quite interesting (and predictable).

Which brings me back to the thrust of so many threads: All I can do is work to make/keep myself healthy and whole, and to be very clear inwardly and out as to what my boundaries are. That alone will change (and has changed) my relationships for the better.

[Mitzy]

Very interesting thread. Many things hit the spot for me. When I asked my BPD daughter if I was more reactive or sensitive as a mom, she said I was both depending on situations? I also love my work as a teacher and probably was a very over attentive mom.  I only have 2 kids, 7 years apart, and wanted to be anything but my own mother! ( No mental health issues for me... . yet... . BPD daughter makes me so tired and anxious sometimes). I read in one book that dads are often the targets and will even be accused of false abuse.  I bet whoever is the main authority in a house, is the target. My hubby is sweet and not the force... . daughter believes he walks on water.

[Reality]

Interesting, my son said that I either would react too much in situations when it wasn't warranted or I wouldn't take him seriously enough in other situations.  My son was such an obvious star, I always figured that he knew he had many talents.  He said that I didn't put the same effort into raising him.  I figured he was strong because he was good-looking, very intelligent, funny and kind with people as a young boy.  Hmmmm... .

He wasn't blaming... . I remember we laughed about the absurdity of it all.  I tried so hard and I never quite hit the mark.  I think he was always living in an idealized world, so maybe I did okay some of the time.

I worked full-time and I feel guilty about that because I think he needed someone relaxed at home.  So... .

Reality

[vivekananda]

Hi Fay   

All that has been said sounds so real... . especially about we mothers being target practice for the ills of the world. But For my dd I wanted to add a different dimension. She is 32 and blames me for her situation which she says is due to a lifetime of abuse, this was once so hurtful, but now I have come to understand and accept this. Fortunately there is no-one who knows me and my dh who believe her.

My dd needs to have someone else to blame for the situation she finds herself in. If she couldn't blame someone else then she would have to look at herself and accept responsibility for herself and that is far too painful for her. She feels deeply shamed I believe, for how her life has turned out. Also, she needs a reason for her diagnosis of PTSD and that's me and dh who stood by and did nothing. She and her T who is an expert on PTSD arrived at this diagnosis about 18mths ago. But she doesn't seem to see him anymore, so maybe he has come to see things differently now... .

I believe my dd was able to arrive at this explanation due to the complicity of a social worker who helped her apply for a govt benefit to help her live independently when she was 18. This was some years ago when it was even easier to blame others than it is now, and I was an easy target because I was trying to apply limits to her behaviour, while all around me people were saying to relax and let her do her own thing, she was just being normal.

It has been one of the hardest things to cope with. And of course, before I understood, I would feel terribly guilty.

Thank goodness I found this place 

Vivek    

[vivekananda]

oops, I forgot the other part of the equation.

While I thought I was a validating mum, I have since learnt that dd wasn't living in an environment that she found validating. She was a sensitive girl who had to survive in a rough and tumble small rural community where we were the odd ones out. So, the focus was on enabling her to be strong... . it was not the right sort of upbringing for a her.

Undoubtedly she found it very invalidating and I was the one who carried that burden. For her it must have felt abusive, if not at the time, then in retrospect for sure. So, of course if she felt abused, she was abused, so logic goes. And that's the truth.

And that's so sad.

Vivek    

[sunshineplease]

Wow, Vivek , did that ever resonate with me:

While I thought I was a validating mum, I have since learnt that dd wasn't living in an environment that she found validating.

So many variables in this crazy BPD world. DH and I realized that the "meme"/narrative that is helping UD18 get better is that we were a certain kind of parents -- a kind that our friends and family swears emphatically we were not. But that is her reality, so it is real.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Fay]

Wow what wonderful comments. So, intelligent and thought provoking.  It made me feel better too.  Thank you all so much.

Wow!

Peace to you all today

Fay

[heronbird]

I love this thread, one of the best interesting and insightful too.

Funny, my sister who is non BPD, once said that she always felt inadequate because she saw my mum as so capable in every situation. Yet I saw that in a different light, I just thought its good because we see her being so well balanced and it will rub off on us.

Its so true though, my dd is more hateful towards me, she does sometimes hero worship me at times. I get the raw deal. Ive wronged her about 6 times in her life and she only seems to remember those 6 times.

Now shes had her baby, when she started getting worse a few weeks ago, she said she has feelings that she is a useless mum and what was she thinking of having a baby when she is not right, she said the baby would be better off with me, I can stop him crying when he needs that and I always know what to do.

Im saying this because of sunshine please s post about strong mums etc

I am too the strong one and dh is the practical one, he does not seem to get too upset most of the time.

[js friend]

Funny, my sister who is non BPD, once said that she always felt inadequate because she saw my mum as so capable in every situation.

Funny how some people can see so things differently isnt it?

My other 2 children are extroverts and dd and udexh are introverts which I think actually influences the way they see interactions with others.

DD and udexh both on separate occasions have  accused me of being a "showoff", and "being full of myself" just for socialising.  

Another time dd said  that  I was a "poser" when I all doing was enjoying myself. I wasnt drinking or flirting or anything like that but that was her perception... . Sometimes I think I can actually see how annoyed she looks when it grates on her to see people having fun.

Even our different sense of humour would rub them up the wrong way.

She lived at home she always hated that my other children were out and about socialising, or hated when they had friends over too... . didnt want to join them and hated the noise they made.

It was a totally no win situation sometimes.

Actually being able to talk to people is necessary part of the job i do.

Other people have told me  that being able to talk to others and put them at ease is a skill to be admired but dd and udexh used to just criticise me for it.  

[heronbird]

I guess all different children will see everything very differently. Its different with BP.

I was just dosing on the settee haha, thinking about this thread and how good it is and I thought, why is it that dd seems to have it in for me or is not always very happy with me.

First of all, Ive noticed its usually only when she is dysregulated anyway. Secondly, isnt it just like toddlers, if you observe toddlers they always play up for parents not daycare provider or nursery teachers, they will also play up more for the parent who takes it on, if its a dad who does not take the bait, why would they play up? there is no point they dont get the reaction they want.

BP is like toddler behaviour really sometimes I guess.

I am over protective towards my dd, I mean, who goes through what Ive been through and is not paranoid about their safety. You all know what Im saying dont you, Im not wording it well.

You know, the other day when dd was starting to go into crisis, I rang her P and she said to me that Im bound to be more worried because of her history. Thats patronising isnt it. I dont like her. haha, sound like my dd now.

Its not fair that our dds act like they hate us is it, we have mostly sacrificed everything for them. Its like the book title I hate you, please dont leave me. Sums my dd up a lot.

[BioAdoptMom3]

In our case, and based on what I understand, a very high percentage of BPD sufferers are adopted.  It is very typical for an adopted child to use the adoptive mother as a scapegoat for his or her pain as far as his or her rejection, abandonment, etc. is concerned.  They biological mother turned her back on them, so they take it out on the only mother they know!  I am constantly getting the cold shoulder while DH gets hugs, "I love you" and other expressions of affection.  I am sure this is only ONE piece of a very large puzzle!

[heronbird]

Oh what a shame, well no not really, its not more typical of adopted children, it can happen to anyone any class ,nationality etc

Ive said before on this board that my best friend who is now 50 was adopted and Im sure she had signs of BPD when growing up, she always says bad things about her adoptive mother, my friend has a sister who was also adopted and it came out in a different way, she has other issues.

My friend says everyone who she ever loved left her :'(, first her mum, then her dh, then one of her sons she says rejected her.

I always wonder, what would happen if she didnt know she was adopted. My mum said years ago, they never used to tell children. Interesting thought, not sure what is right really.

I have a friend she adopted two boys, they were blood brothers, the oldest one is now19 and has schizophrenia. So sad isnt really, guess it depends on genetics too.

My dd isnt adopted and she does use me as scapegoat but Ive learnt how to stop that, so she will use her sister or now her dh. Sometimes even the P haha.

[Laurie55]

Hi Fay,

Yes, this is a great question.  Another possibility... . I have thought my DD was jealous of me.  I am able to function better in society than she is.  Her friends use to think I was "cute" and "funny"... . "loved my accent".  I think as she had more and more difficulty getting along with friends, she began to hate me bec they liked me.  I even had two of her closest friends call me and apologize for believing my DD when she said that I was a bad mother; they apologized and said they knew I was a good mother.  I was shocked at the turnaround.  It makes me so sad.  I want her successful in her girl-world.  I have never been "cool", so I was surprised they liked me.  I think it is so hard on her to see me have friends... . some are even moms of girls who rejected her.  Those relationships are very 'iffy' for me; I still think some of those girls could have been nicer, but knowing the nature of BPD, my DD probably pushed them to their limits.

This is just a thought.

Very interesting to hear the strong mom/passive dad connection; that is definitely our dynamic.  However, I strongly believe she would have gotten into very bad trouble if I hadn't stepped up and acted.  Hubby would have just ignored.

Great thread.

[heronbird]

Just had a thought I remember reading in a book about Narcissistic PD. What they do is they steel your identity.

Because they know they can not function very well they copy someone they are close to.

This is a very interesting topic for me at the moment. Ive never thought my dd was jealous, but you never know really.

When she had her baby Im sure she didnt like me involved because she know I was extremely  capable, I would have thought she would keep coming to me for advice but no, she shut me out a lot. After 3 weeks she then brought him round and asked me to keep him because she thought Id do a better job.

Shame she didnt try to steel my, I say, identity but Im not sure that is the right word, maybe I mean personality/character.

I have a long term friend who I think is Narcissistic, thats why Ive learnt things a bit about that too, I know it crosses over a bit with BPD.

So why would our dds be like this and not just copy us, after all isnt that how it is supposed to be a bit.

[FaithfulHope]

My dd21 gets very angry with me at times also.   All I ever wanted to be in this world is a mom and when she was 8 and I had my 3rd child I gave up my job to stay at home with my kids.  I was in heaven.   My husband is a great dad but he works long long hours and so I am the one who handles most everything on the homefront.  Like 99% of what goes on at home is run my me.   So I always thought that is why she takes her anger out on me because I know her better than he does.  I think she gets angry because I see through her lies.  However now I am no longer pointing the lies out to her.   Just trying to keep a peaceful co-existence with her.   

This post made me think there might be more to it. I also am a very capable, hardworking, organized person.   Clearly those skills have helped enable her for many years.   I kept track of appts, kept her on track with school things, etc.   She never ever ever has shown any independent effort towards anything productive... . the only things she puts effort into is getting out of meeting responsibilities and getting into trouble and causing drama.   Very interesting thought provoking post.

Also, you mentioned above sometimes dads are accused of abuse falsely.  That happened with us once when I took her to a new T.   She claimed her hit her.   I got called into the room to explain.   She has never been abused but let me tell you... .   I wanted to slap her silly when she did that.  I was SO offended that she would dare say something like that about her dad who gets up at 4 am everyday to support our family only to come home every single day to hear the 'latest stunt of dd'.   She has no clue the years she has taken off both our lives due to the stress of this.   But she didn't want to to talk about what she was doing that led us to the therapist so she threw him under the bus.     

Recently she was in the hospital, and now that she is 21 we were not notified.  I found out and contacted the hospital and they got a msg to her to call me.  She did and in short time she started spewing how she has this condition because of all the abuse she has endured from her family.   Claims we put her down and don't support her, etc.   She got so riled up she allegedly punched a wall when she got off the phone.   I didn't call her back because I didn't want to upset her more.  She just wants to point fingers as usual.  Nothing is ever her fault.

So... . I am taking the high road.  I don't point out her lies anymore.  I am now going to work on learning how to converse better with her to validate her feelings without just getting sucked into her drama.  I love how we can be so open with our stories here.  Thank you.

[js friend]

So why would our dds be like this and not just copy us, after all isnt that how it is supposed to be a bit.

Heron I used to wonder exactly the same thing.

Isnt there a saying that imitation supposed to be the greatest form of flattery?

Laurie55~ my dd has said the same thing about me to many of her friends, and their

parents too.Usually it would be the ones who would just take her in and not call if she turned up on their doorstep. It has always been to the ones who wont bother to verify her stories. DD has even accused me of being jealous of her because she has friends and i apparently havent got any!... . pure projection

Terry-jo my DD has also accused of abusing her, and accused exb/f of a serious sexual assualt yet we have been the ones who have stood by her when others have given up  

I really wonder what she would really do if she had been abused.

Certainly not act like she hasnt got a care in the world after reporting such abuse im sure.

Actually when I first found these boards there was a post about a girl in a pysch hospital who had an eating disorder who hated her mom.She would often refuse to see the mom in vists.Then in  t the dd broke down and confessed that she was jealous of her mums popularity and her trim figure and she couldnt stand the sight of her. She really wanted to be like her and in the process decided to totally alienate her mom for  years.

And the trim figure was down to all the stress she was under by knowing her dd was not eating, but the dd just couldnt see it that way.  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[heronbird]

Hey, I think I just realised something

BPD daughters  seem to hate their mothers, well not hate actually but say bad things against them, make them look bad too. Ive had that too.

Now dd is married, I think she is singing my praises and her dh becomes the baddie. It changes from time to time though.

So does this mean, I can look forward to her being really nice to me and not to her dh, not that I want her poor dh to get the nasty side of her.

Its just lately, I have noticed that she has been so lovely to me and he paints a different picture of her, yet we seem surprised and feel like he is making it up. Now the tables might have turned.

[js friend]

yes seems like no 2 people can be liked at the same time, and worse still if those 2 people get along. Everyone gets their turn at being split black eventually causing interpersonal r/s chaos

[heronbird]

Really, this is all new to me, Im learning a whole new lot of stuff. Her dh would have believed bad things about me then. Thats so horrible isnt it, Ive been so good to her, I often think too good and understanding actually.

[Fay]

Hi all,

Thank you for all the info.  It is interesting. Why dd or ds attack the mom so often?

Love to you all,

Fay

[vivekananda]

Here's my 2 bob's worth:

Mothers are supposed to be the moral guardians of the world. We are the ones who do nursing, we are the teachers, we are the child care workers, we are the helpers, the ones to go to when you are hurt. We provide emotional support unconsciously to everyone.

Our children when they are hurt, go to mums for a bandaid, to kiss it better. We sleep with our kids when they have a bad dream. We are the ones who wake at night automatically when our kids are awake. We are always there fixing things up.

Our children with BPD have immense and unbearable psychic pain. Their lives are a confused mess and they often don't achieve their goals as adults.

We were supposed to teach them how to be adults and how to get on. We were supposed to guide them through the maze of adolescence. They weren't supposed to be living a messed up life of pain. Why didn't we fix it up? Why didn't we prepare them properly? Why can't we ease their pain?

Well, wouldn't you be angry?

Add to this a world which finds it so easy to blame women, blame mothers. When our children no matter how old, do something wrong, we question what the mother did. Was it an abusive household - why didn't the mother leave then? Is she a drug addict - why did she get pregnant? The adult male relative abused the child - why didn't the mother know, surely she must have? Again and again in different ways, we expect women to do what we don't call men to account for and when they can't do it, we blame them. In our inadequate world, someone has to be blamed otherwise, we have to look to our own responsibility.

phew! sorry got on a roll there... . I could go on for hours on this subject... . not worth it though. The question is not why are mothers blamed, but what can we do to make ourselves better mothers.


Vivek    

[FaithfulHope]

Vivek ,

I think you raised very valid points there.   I also think our DD's inherently know that no matter what they say or do, their mothers will always be there for them.   It doesn't make their accusations hurt any less but I try to keep that in mind... . at least after I calm down after an attack.  

Also, I want to give you a big 'virtual hug'.   I am new to this site and am soo thankful for this support.  I came to this site after a friend gave me a link to the Psych Today article about a BPD daughter blaming her parents.  I have commented a few times  because I could so relate.   However I just discovered that it was you who wrote it.  I didn't realize that initially.  I knew it was a guest column but I didn't know it was someone from this site.   I cannot believe all the hurtful comments that have been posted.   I made my last attempt this morning to show a different perspective but I am no longer looking at those comments.   Please don't take what they say to heart.   I, for one, am so in awe of your honest and brave description of your situation.   I can totally relate.   Thank you for leading me to this site!   I have been in need of a group like this for years and years.    

[vivekananda]

Hi TerryJo,

Thank you for your   . I really enjoyed it. 

Well, there you go, I didn't even know about all that stuff you refer to. I haven't returned to the article and saw nothing of what you refer to. I guess that's why ignorance is bliss eh? 

I am glad you have found us here. Here we have moderators who can help us stick to the guidelines for productive discussion. We are here to learn and care for ourselves and make us the sort of parent that our children can have a good relationship with.

My dd once said to me that she felt she was entitled to yell at me etc. After all I was my mother and if she couldn't yell at me, who could she yell at?

Looks like I'll have to try and find that article and see those comments - and not be hurt by them   

Thank you TJ   

[FaithfulHope]

Vivek ,

Don't even look. I am not looking anymore myself.  The people responding there clearly don't understand what we have been living through.   Or from their life experiences they have been victimized by someone with a personality disorder.   That article led me to here where I feel I truly belong.  I can't tell you how many tears I shed when I first started to read the posts on this site.  I was overcome with emotion after finding people who truly understand the suffering I have been living.   It doesn't change the situation that I still have a very unstable daughter but I now can share my experiences and get support and suggestions from people who are walking on the same path.  So very comforting.

So thank you for being so brave to write that guest column!

Have a great day!

[vivekananda]

Hey TJ, I saw it all yesterday and I am not bothered by the responses. It doesn't reflect too well on those who wrote them... . well, those who were disparaging. They have a lot of growing to do and they probably have their own problems with difficult personality traits... . I do detect self righteousness, superiority/arrogance and self entitlement. They are judgemental and have a negative perspective. They make incorrect assumptions. It is classic projection.

Now check out all those words and consider the concepts that underlie them. There we can find lessons for ourselves and our own self reflection TJ.

It was recently suggested to me that you can't raise with someone with BPD unscathed. We are affected by it. Our responses are not likely to be helpful when we are pushed. We act as if we are dealing with a 'normal' child, but we have a special child with special needs. We are not snowy white at all. We assuredly have   (well, I know I do  )

If we want to change our behaviour, we have to change our thinking. In order to change our thinking, it may help to see where we are thinking in an unhelpful way... . are we self righteous, arrogant, self entitled, judgemental, negative etc? It is unlikely we would say yes to any of these, so it may help to investigate the things we say and do that underlie our thoughts. If we work at being better mums, then we can better help our relationship with our 'children'. And that's what we want isn't it? A better relationship with our children?

I am so glad you found us TJ - we are a good family to each other here 


Vivek    

[FaithfulHope]

Hi Vivek ,

Oh yes, you are so right.  We do have to work on ourselves in order to help our relationships with our special children.   And having the right supports (ie: this group) is key!   I hope one day to get my husband to join also.   He works long hours at a stressful job and I worry about the toll it has taken on him having to come home all these years and learn the latest about our daughter.   He is not at the same place I am with his feelings about her condition but I think he is getting there.   I think he wants to believe that with time she will mature and these behaviors will cease.  I think with time he is learning that her diagnosed condition is right.   I guess I don't blame him.   First of all he only got to see the kids a small fraction of the time compared to me as a full time mom.   Secondly she is his only daughter and therefore it is his nature to see her as an angel.   But with time he is starting to see the reality of the situation and luckily he and I have always been on the same page in how we have dealt with her behaviors.   My hope is that one day he, too, will feel the support of this group so that he can finally open up some of the emotions he has held in private for far too long.   

Have a great day!

[VeryFree]

My stbBPDxw hasn't spoken to her mother in ten years. She blames her mother for ruïning her youth.

Hearing the stories my stbx has told me, I did understand.

I didn't understand why she let her father of the hook: he neither was there for her, he let her mother ruïn her life, he never acknowledge his daugthers needs and even now he still denies her problems.

Strangely enough my stbx thinks her mother is Evil, while her father is Holy.

[angeldust1]

I really think it's because we are mothers,  (and in case you didn't know,  it is not exclusive to daughters.)  Mothers love unconditionally,  without reservation and that's for life.  This child grew within us,  how can we stop loving part of ourselves.  Dads on the other hand,  I believe possess,  an ability to "turn things off" when they do not like what is going on.  They either deny or just go on as if it were no big deal.  We tend to rationalize,  placate, and just plain try to hard to "get them to love us".  Dad just doesn't care as much.  They care,  but they seem to be able to deal with it better and the child knows that.  No matter the age.

[peaceplease]

I think it is that they know we love them "unconditionally".   

My ex has been estranged from my dd for about 7 years.  And, prior to that, he was not involved much in my kids lives.

I am blamed for marrying my dh.  I started seeing him when she was in 6th grade.  I married him when she was in the 9th grade.   She says that she always hated him.  But, there were times that she has expressed love for him.  And, my dh is moody with her, too.  So, although, he loves her, she hates him most of the time.  Loves him some of the time.  She told me that she would never marry any man that my gs did not like.

And, she always says that I don't deserve to have two screwed up kids.  My ds has issues, too.  I suspect that he is more NPD.  My ex appeared to be NPD.  And, now that I am aware of BPD, I can see my exes family with BPD and NPD.  My exMIL with BPD, my exh with NPD.  Although, my former therapist told me that BPD manifest differently in males, and believes that my dd inherited the gene from her dad.  She saw my dd and said that her thoughts were that she strongly suspected BPD, and it sounded like my ex had it, too.

My dd was calling me a saint on Fb and said that I did more than the average grandma.  A few days later, she was complaining on FB about not being able to pick your family.  She was referring to me.  And, last night she sent me text, saying that my gs paternal grandmother is more of a grandmother than I am.  Wow, that floored me!  She never has much good to say about her.  I know that my dd feels abandoned now.  I am busy taking care of my mother with dementia, so I don't cater to my dd as I used to. My dd is jealous of my attention to my mother.  My mother is my priority now, and my dd does not like taking a back seat.

It does seem that us mothers get the brunt of it!

[Memom]

New to the site, and it is so comforting to read this particular thread. I'm not good at the abbreviations yet, so bare with me. My d16 got out of rehab a month ago. Her addiction problem was addressed wonderfully, but the BPD not at all. And since so much of her anger/insecurity/hate is directed at me, most people don't see it. Just the family. There is nothing I can do that is right to her. According to her I don't support her. Even though I take her NA every night and therapy sessions once or twice a week. I'm a single mother with 2 other kids who get NONE of my attention. It has been this way since she was born. My oldest has decided he can't live in the house with her anymore and is moving out. Naturally this breaks my heart. But I don't know what to do to control the blow ups. I'd leave to, if I wasn't "mom".

As in similar posts, dad, who is hardly ever around, walks on water. He is defended until I just want to scream. But I do all the things I think I'm suppose to do. Just to keep the peace. When inside I am honestly starting to hate this disease. And I have to remind myself it is the disease that I hate, not my daughter.

This thread has been very helpful. I had a rough evening with her. Tell me who is crazier here, her or me? She wanted to go to a baseball game, but her friend couldn't afford it. She wanted me to pay. I told her to clean up the kitchen and I would pay. She tells me it is too overwhelming she just can't do it. Okay, I'll help. I go in to help and she leaves. I try to call her back to finish the job and she just totally loses it. Punching the wall, crying, gasping for air. Yelling at me that I don't even care about her. What?

So she goes to her room, screaming in her pillow. I go in and sit on the bed. She eventually calms down. I can't touch her... . she won't stand for that, when what I really want to do is hold her and rock her. She pulls herself together and I take her to the ball game. I feel guilty for rewarding such childish behaviour (and my boys completely don't understand how she gets away with it). But the peace and quiet we have while she is gone is worth it to me. Am I nuts? The idea of telling her no and dealing with the melt down was just too overwhelming for me to handle. This disease just sucks.

I'm so glad I found you guys... . Tears are flowing as I type this, but it's the first time I think I'm with people who understand. Just thanks.

[qcarolr]

Our children with BPD have immense and unbearable psychic pain. Their lives are a confused mess and they often don't achieve their goals as adults.

We were supposed to teach them how to be adults and how to get on. We were supposed to guide them through the maze of adolescence. They weren't supposed to be living a messed up life of pain. Why didn't we fix it up? Why didn't we prepare them properly? Why can't we ease their pain?

Well, wouldn't you be angry?

Maybe, if I had known about BPD when DD27 was a teen, I could have changed my perspective in coping with her -- have been more 'there' for her in a way that she could feel it, see it, believe it. DD has told me how I destroyed her life by being such a horrible parent, and that she is watching me do the same as I try to be the parent for gd8. This is a double whammy of guilt for me. Tears me apart. WOW - the  that I have been trying to scrap off.

Then I stop to see that DD has shown me more appreciation in the past 6 months than in the previous 6 years. Yes, there are still meltdowns - and I am still there with her. The difference, IMHO, is that I do have some protective boudnaries now that I did not have before. I know when to walk away, hang up the phone or not even answer the phone (like in the middle of the night when I would say "no, i am not coming to get you since you missed the last bus home" anyway), when to pull over as ask her to leave the car or be silent the rest of the way to wherever we are going - or I will ask someone else to remove her from my car (and I have had to do this). Or I leave the house when she refuses to go. It has been so hard to persevere through the down cycles with her.

[Well, have to give some credit to the recent exbf for pressing harrassment charges against DD. This gives her another target for her emotional distress. Even though she claims she is innocent, she is also sharing more and more details about how she is not so innocent -- yes she did do the things that are in the police reports. And she has been shunned by many other friends that side with exbf. She is unable to blame me for any of this.  I am so so so glad I stayed out of all this. In the past - not su much - I was enmeshed in so many of her bf r/s issues.]

The payoff is that she gets over it and actually apologizes to me for her behavior - this means to me that she is starting to at least be aware that she has some of the responsibility for our interaction.

What of this is her changing, how much is my changing -- some of both is my guess. It is like tonight when I did go pick her up from town - she was vomiting with a migraine in my car after being gone past 2 nights - I offered to take her to the clinic - she yelled at me for pushing her to see a doctor, to sit in a waiting room, I really don't care... .   I held up my hand and quietly said "Look, I am here! I am here!"  And she stopped. We drove straight home.

It was recently suggested to me that you can't raise with someone with BPD unscathed. We are affected by it. Our responses are not likely to be helpful when we are pushed. We act as if we are dealing with a 'normal' child, but we have a special child with special needs. We are not snowy white at all. We assuredly have    (well, I know I do  )

If we want to change our behaviour, we have to change our thinking. In order to change our thinking, it may help to see where we are thinking in an unhelpful way... . are we self righteous, arrogant, self entitled, judgemental, negative etc? It is unlikely we would say yes to any of these, so it may help to investigate the things we say and do that underlie our thoughts. If we work at being better mums, then we can better help our relationship with our 'children'. And that's what we want isn't it? A better relationship with our children?

And this work on myself is HARD. It is IMPERFECT. It is INCONSISTENT. I forget that it is a PRACTICE. It is a daily, ongoing practice of self-awareness and mindfulness about all of the above Vivek  listed. Learning to say YES, I do have all this twisted thinking. Now, how can I untwist it? Remember to myself - I am a good person, loving woman (mom, grandma, wife, etc.) and intelligent enough to figure this out over and over and over. Same formula: self-care, remember what is important to me (values) and my family, what are my boundaries to protect these values, can I be validating of her feelings right now - how do I need to do this, or do I need to preserve some physical and emotional distance for a bit to become more sincere, back to self-care.

And as I change myself, low and behold - DD is slowly changing too even without much professional help.

I think it is that they know we love them "unconditionally".   

For me, this only works out if I am taking good care of my own needs. This is when I can be sincere in expressing this love for her - either directly or indirectly. If I am distressed, resentful, angry etc. then this mother-love is hidden in the r/s.

My dd was calling me a saint on Fb and said that I did more than the average grandma.  A few days later, she was complaining on FB about not being able to pick your family.  She was referring to me.  And, last night she sent me text, saying that my gs paternal grandmother is more of a grandmother than I am.  Wow, that floored me!  She never has much good to say about her.  I know that my dd feels abandoned now.  I am busy taking care of my mother with dementia, so I don't cater to my dd as I used to. My dd is jealous of my attention to my mother.  My mother is my priority now, and my dd does not like taking a back seat.

I get this most from DD27 when I am giving care to my gd8. Only in the past few months has DD been able to express to me her fears that gd will grow up to be as messed up she is. And DD can only see that I am the one to prevent this since it is 'my fault' that DD is so messed up (BPD thinking, huh). DD has such a hard time seeing that gd is very very different person in so many ways. I do believe some of gd's behavior issues are from seeing the ineffective actions between dh/me and DD. This is compounded by her ADHD -- changed her med schedule to get help in evening and see more cooperation with gd. I have been doing way too much yelling lately even when DD is out of the house. Need to get on track with taking care of my needs - giving back responsibilites that do not belong to me with everyone (dh, dd, gd, co-workers). Gotta get out of my rescuer mode.

This got way too long  I have been silently following this thread - guess feel it was time to reply. Hang in there mom's -- we are all in this together and for the duration.

qcr    

[LynnieRe]

I'm getting that too.  Of course, my DD is the daughter of a BPD.  I am the triangle between the two. 

Recently, I sat in on a "family meeting" that ended up involving roasting me on a spit. 

She accused me of all kinds of abuse and manipulation toward her and her father.  Controlling her life, saying horrible things to her, beating her etc.  He, of course, took the bait.  The family meeting became a dual shouting match.  Her saying things, him yelling at me for doing the things she accused me of, and her yelling at him because he's mean to me. 

Today, I told her that no matter what she told the T, who's known her 2 weeks, and no matter what she accuses him or me of, I'm her parent and she will participate in family events including her father and brothers.  She trashed my house.  My position never changed.  She eventually stopped and talked to me more rationally. 

She may emancipate at age 18, and she can then do what she wants.  I will not get tied to her moods and drama anymore. 

 

[vivekananda]

I recall watching this video some time ago and was again reminded of it. It only goes for 8.15 mins and is spoken by a recovered woman who had BPD. She is inspiring. She explains why love is not enough:

Love is not enough

it made me cry.

To the newbies here     it's good to see you. Have you started your own post to introduce yourselves to us yet? You could give us a brief intro to your story and your concerns and if you asked a question, there'd be an avalanche of good people here wanting to help you 

cheers,

Vivek    

[FaithfulHope]

Vivek ,

Just wondering if you know... . How did they teach her how to live?   She must have wanted change.   Who worked with her and what did they do?

So far with my DD everytime we rescue her and get her on the right path she chooses to derail her progress and go right back to her old behaviors.  She seems to choose living with chaos and poverty over making something of her life.  But she is fully capable of creating a stable life.   

I am curious how this woman was able to rise up out of the chaos.   Do you know?  Thanks for sharing!

[vivekananda]

The short answer is no, sorry, I don't. I think the path to recovery is different for everyone. I don't think anyone who has recovered has ever been 'rescued' by a parent   I don't think it's something that we can do. Our own BPD path is different. We can be supportive and stop being a negative influence, if our children are under 18 and in our care, we can do more, of course. ... . but that's not our own situation.

So, a few bits of info might help.

Karpman Triangle

This explains why the role of rescuer is so unhelpful. Understanding who we are is central to our task of changing ourselves.

Australian Clinical Practice Guideline for the Management of Borderline Personality Disorder (2012)

On page 55 there is a table which shows the effectiveness of various treatments as indicate by a meta analysis study of the research. (if you don't understand what that means, ask, ok?). The most effective treatment, historically, is Dialectical Behaviour Treatment but there are other forms of treatment that are successful, they appear on the table. Now there is Neurofeedback, which is not psychology based but neurology based. The evidence for neurofeedback is anecdotal, but very powerfully persuasive. Thing is, neurofeedback is too new for the evidence to be there.

If the pwBPD doesn't want to be in treatment, if they don't believe they have anything wrong with them. Nothing will work. They need to accept the treatment. On page 56 of the Guidelines there are 6 features of successful therapy - no matter which of the forms/types of treatment are used.

I recently read The Buddha and the Borderline by Keira Van Gelder. It is the story of her recovery as an adult and she explains it beautifully. She is on UTube if you want to look. Here we have our own current success story with Rapt Reader whose adult son is doing neurofeedback. Our own lbjnltx has a daughter who is now about 16 and two years into recovery, her story can also be found here.

The best way to understand a bit about the treatment and why it is such a challenging thing, is to try it for ourselves. Are you up for the challenge? 

cheers,

Vivek      

[FaithfulHope]

Thanks Vivek ,

I am always up the the challenge... . sadly my dd isn't.  When she was first diagnosed with BPD and in therapy her therapist tried to work with her on DBT.   But like you said the patient has to want the treatment and has to work at it.  My dd never works at anything except drama.   But I can pray that one day that will change.   

I am curious about the new treatment... . neurofeedback.  I will investigate for my own knowledge.   

I think its probably best to start these treatments at a young age.  I think these behaviors get ingrained in people as they age.  Just my own opinion.   

Vivek  you have the most wonderful info to share.  Thank you so much!   I have been spending so much of my days just reading reading reading on this site.   I had read other books over the years but this site has so much to offer!

I have a question for you... . when my dd was young, her only issue was chronic lying.   (Well, that and my concern that she had no conscience because of her lack of emotion and empathy over friendships).  But her lying was a huge issue from early on.  I never could find a book about children lying that could help me understand what I was dealing with.   I talked to her teachers, to the school administrators, to other parents, and to her pediatrician and everyone always said 'Oh don't worry, she will snap out of it'.   

I wished I had some book to help me understand what I was dealing with because I knew something was very wrong but I couldn't find anything to help me understand it.   

Do you know of any book I missed that could have helped me back then?   Mind you, she had no other behavior issues back then.  She always had a sweet disposition... . no anger or rage back then.  Her teachers always said she was a pleasure to have in class... . even though she never did her work!   I now think her charming ways was her way to manipulate her way to get out of work.   She is a con artist.   It's funny... . her teachers all liked her but knew she was capable of better work if she put forth more effort which she never did.   

So, I am just wondering if there is some book out there that would have shed some light on what I was dealing with.

Thanks!   

[vivekananda]

No, I don't know of any book to help us understand back then.

For me I understand lying has a simple explanation but is a tad complex.

Simply, lying works. It gets a person what they want. Someone with BPD will lie for a number of reasons. An important one is to shift blame off oneself. Pw BPD feel this enormous irrational shame, so if that can be eased with a lie, then so be it. Lying can help you avoid responsibility. If responsibility overwhelms me and lying eases that burden, then so be it. Then lying in the form of exaggeration and such like might get me some sympathy and warm fuzzies that make me feel good. So, that's a good reason to lie. I might think that I am not heard or not listened to (and that is such a truth for pw BPD), so some exaggeration or distortion of the truth works to get attention.

Overtime, it becomes a legitimately rationalised way of responding and it becomes a belief for the pw BPD, it is true to them.

Now, I don't think I lie at all, but experts tell me that everyone of us does and we do it to keep the social wheels moving. So usually it is what we would call white lies. Even the simple "how are you?" "fine thanks" can often be a lie. So it seems that lying is an everyday event. However the sort of lying we see is different.

My dd tended to lie to avoid responsibility eg when she knew she had done something I disapproved of, she would lie to get out of trouble. And this was more likely to have occurred in early adolescence - those critical years in brain development.

What we need to learn is to stop being judgemental. As parents of adult children, we have had our chance to raise our kids, to teach them. Now that they are adults, we need to learn to support who they are. We don't have to like their situation, but if we are judgemental, it impedes our capacity to support them.

So it helps for us to process our thoughts, eg about lying, but then move beyond that to acceptance of who they are. We never have to agree with what they purport, but we have to accept them. Have a check out of this link on SET:

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

I would advise caution regarding telling your dd that her belief that you abused her is wrong. I think you could assume she knows that you don't think that. To me it seems that the incorrect belief in abuse is integral to her issues of attachment and relationships and it wouldn't do to face that unless your dd was well into recovery and wanted to address it. If you needed to you should find the words to communicate that you see things differently. If you tell her she is wrong, that leads to being judgemental.

I now think her charming ways was her way to manipulate her way to get out of work.   She is a con artist.   It's funny... . her teachers all liked her but knew she was capable of better work if she put forth more effort which she never did.   

I understand exactly what you are saying... . but it is judgemental. Consider this: a person who manipulates does so to gain something, it involves a thought out strategy to achieve advantage. We all have thought our children manipulate, but that's not quite so really. Our children lie as a defence mechanism, they lie to protect themselves. If they were manipulating, they are never successful. The lives they lead are full of a terrible internal psychic pain. They struggle to get on in their day to day life. They react from one thing to another. If you consider this to be manipulation then they have to be the world's worst repeat offenders of unsuccessful strategizing to improve their lives and the absolute dumbest people on earth to keep on doing that which doesn't help them - they do get caught out on these lies, don't they?

Now to be judgemental is of no help to us. What helps us is to change the way we think, to open ourselves to humility and acceptance, to let go of our self righteousness and sense of superior knowledge. It is to our advantage to embrace mindfulness. When we can work on that, then we are in a better position to be able to develop our relationship with our dd's and be able to offer them the support they need. And better able to care for ourselves 

make sense?

Vivek    

[FaithfulHope]

Vivek ,

Oh I just love how you make me think about things differently.   I have only had my own thoughts for so many years but its so awesome to get different perspectives on this.   I really appreciate your input. 

 

[Fay]

Very well said Vivek ananda... .

[sunshineplease]

“The ability to observe without evaluating is the highest form of intelligence.”

― Jiddu Krishnamurti