When my DS25 is being totally illogical should I do something more than validate

[six]

This  situation is somewhat trivial but it illustrates my BPDDS25's illogical behavior that I am searching for help with. 

About 6 months ago BPDDS25 went on a blind date with a girl (we'll call her Cindy) who is a friend of my non-DD24.  A member of Cindy's family who knows BPDDS (but doesnt know him very well) set them up on a blind date. DD had told DS not to go out with Cindy because he would not like her, but my DS went out with Cindy anyway.  Dating is a very sensitive area for DS because he is such a failure at it.

The date was a disaster and DS was furious that DD set him up on a blind date with an ugly stupid idiot (Cindy is smart and pretty).  He has been blaming DD ever since because she did not dissuade him in strong enough terms, and now he even accuses DD of setting him up with Cindy (completely not true).  Because we live in a small town, whenever DS sees any member of Cindy's family he goes into a rage against DD.

My question for the group is this.  When he tells me how enraged he is at DD, I validate him by saying, "wow that must be so uncomfortable for you when you see a member of Cindy's family!  I feel badly to think of how uncomfortable it is for you."  But I never get past that.  How will DS ever become a functional human being if he is so illogical and so determined to blame others for things they did not do?  Is there some other way for me to help him?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

six

Have you tried the SET appraoch?

Support, Empathy and Truth... . are you missing the truth statement?

[six]

Hi jellibeans

yes, in fact, I am missing the truth statement

I think this has been at the root of my problems with him for a long time

I afraid to say the truth to him because he is very intelligent and he will explain to me loudly why I am so stupid for thinking that I know the truth

could you help me with what a possible truth statement would be in this situation?

am I trying to tell him the "truth" that DD did not set him up on a blind date?  I have tried that and  he doesn't even hear me

is the "truth" that the members of Cindy's family are not holding a grudge against him so he does not have to have a meltdown every time he sees them?

is the "truth" that going out on bad dates is really frustrating but that does not mean that it is DD's fault?

any help with truth statements would be so appreciated

thanks for the response!

[jellibeans]

I am afraid I have the same problem... . still feel like I am walking on eggshells... . I hope other will pitch in but here goes my try

I like the last one... . that going on bad dates can be frustrating but that doesn't mean it is dd's fault.

I think there is alot going on here so I am not sure what to focus on... .

[Reality]

Wow!  You are vey angry about no-one giving you the heads-up about that date idea.  I hate it when I am in an awkward situation.  Whoever invented dates anyway?  The whole concept sucks.  Seriously, couldn't we humans have thought of a better way to get to know people?  Most dates suck.  I can't believe we still  date.  (pause and wait for comments).

Why do you think the date didn't  go well?  Hmmmmmm... . Oh, I kind of see what you are saying.  Was there anything that went well?  Was there anything likable about this girl?  Her hair, the way she ate, (humour), her cleavage... . oh no... . that's too bad... .

I wonder what kind of girl you would like?  :)o looks matter?  Cleavage?  Eyes?  Intelligence?  What would the ideal girl be like?  No way will you get that in one package.  Scale it down.  (said with light humourous tone).

Get him to mentalize... . to tell you what he values... . who cares whether you think the girl is smart and pretty... . maybe he likes ugly, kind and chubby... . or someone who listens well... . if he figures out what he likes in a girl... . that would be handy.  And good long-term planning... .

Be curious.  

He has to blame others.  He is lost half the time in pain and can't think clearly.  He needs an adult to give guidance and to listen to him and also to goad him in a grandfatherly kind of way... . ' Oh you didn't really mean that.  I know.  But hell, I love blaming others too.  Everyone does.  It does have its limits though, doesn't it?  :)arn it... . (Laugh)  ( At yourself )

Reality

[six]

Reality, I hear your light touch and your sense of humor.  I want to "copy" it. 

I just find it hard to see the humor. 

In truth, anyone who would hear what goes on in my house would probably be in hysterics bec everything DS25 says is basically off the wall.  He rants non stop about how bad all the girls are that he dates.  it is a constant theme how stupid, inane and pathetic ALL girls are (this in a house where I am raising 4 girls). so I forget how funny it actually is bec I am so sick to my stomach most of the time.  I am going to try this method. 

thanks for the response.  hoping to learn how to do it

[Reality]

Marsha Linehan has talked about using humor with pwBPD in one of her books.  When I watched John Gunderson role-playing his General Psychiatric Management with a pwBPD, his manner was quite grandfatherly, guffawing ever so gently and not unkindly when the pwBPD said something preposterous that just didn't make sense.  "Well, of course, you can't just do nothing all day.  No-one does that."  Then being quite serious and genuinely concerned about how the pwBPD was going to figure out what to do and discussing strategies that would help her.

I am reluctant to paraphrase Gunderson, but that is the gist of it.  

Reality

[Reality]

I am thinking more about this... . Linehan describes pwBPD as being the quintessential outsiders... . the trick is to make them feel that they are not, although their emotions do take them to that place as do the resulting behaviors and thought or non-thought.  By responding as if, of course, they don't really mean what they say or they don't really want to act the way they are acting, it normalizes... . they feel understood, their extreme emotions that push them to weird ways are soothed and more often than not they will agree.  "Well, of course, I didn't mean that I was planning on doing nothing all day long."  And boy, do they feel validated.  Someone understood that the thinking and behavior was not what they intended, they were just pushed by the emotions.  "Someone else thinks I am normal, hey, I am feeling good... . "

Reality

[lbjnltx]

hello six  

Sometimes validation can help settle emotions.  If you see signs of this then the door opens to other options... . like asking validating questions that can then lead to more logical thinking/problem solving by them... . sometimes validation doesn't help settle emotions and just keeps things from getting worse by helping them feel heard/understood.

The motivation for validation is not to change them.  If changing them is the driving motivation for being validating then it becomes less than authentic and our very sensitive children/adult children will pick up on that... . it becomes counterproductive.  This is one of the tips and traps

Learning more effective ways to communicate and improve our r/s with our children/adult children takes much time, energy, and commitment.  We need to begin at the beginning... . with what is motivating us.  This may seem too simple and it is the key to success.  Foundational work is the most important as it supports all future efforts.  This will require patience and the willingness to go backwards before going forward... .

lbjnltx

[griz]

Reality:  Such a wonderful example.  I often will infuse some humor along with empathy in our conversations and I find it often helps DD18 to open up and talk about the situation more.  The humor can take emotions down a notch and then it lets her hear the empathy.  As you know DD is having some serious weight issues right now.  Yesterday we went to the gym together and once we got in the car she was upset because her stomach isn't as flat as it should be (I am not talking a little upset, I am talking crying and telling me how much she hates herself). This is totally illogical as she is very thin but has a little added padding on her belly, much like my husband. I told her I understood how she felt coming from the "land of fat thighs".  She laughed a little which took the emotion down a bit and then I joked a little more about it. At that point, once I could get the emotion down, I  was able to empathize with her telling her that all my life, even though I am thin, I always wanted to have great legs but unfortunelty this is not in my genetics and how frustrating this was for me so I understood how she felt.  We were then able to move into a conversation about what society sells us about how we should look and how we buy into it.

By the time we got home, about a half hour later, her mood had lightened quite a bit.  Her stomach wasn't any flatter but she was able to express how she felt with her words (not sh).  She was able to think in a more logical manner and in the end she was able to see that she has totally bought into this superficial BS and that she needs to work on why she values herself based on her looks and the number on the scale.  

I think humor (light humor, we never want them to think we are making fun of them or light of their feelings)  can take down the emotional aspect and then validation can work.  

Griz

[six]

I watched the Marshall Rosenberg videos and also tried to find the gunderman video but it turns out that one is not available on the internet. 

then I got inspired to try to have an open conversation with him which did not involve me getting hurt  by his rude comments and trying to get him to change.  it went pretty well.  I learned a lot about why it is so hard for him to find a person he can relate to and why he feels he needs to run away from  the world and just have no contact because people are such a disappointment to him.  dating is especially miserable bec he wants to find someone who is genuine and not involved with chasing money and status and that is a hard thing to find in this world

I just listened and asked curious questions.  It is true that much of what he says has a kernel of truth even though it is painful to hear.  He expects people to live up to a standard that is too high for most of us and gets furious when they disappoint him.

thank you to everyone who responded for sharing your experiences with me and for all the good ideas that are contributed here.  I get strength to continue trying from this group. when I feel like I cant handle another day, I come here and get inspired

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

Here's a beauty though to introduce you to:

Understanding Validation in Families - Alan E. Fruzzetti, PhD

For this you need to set aside a hour so you can watch it. It helps to have a pen in hand also to jot down the points.

Everytime you read or listen to good info on validation, it reinforces your earlier learning and your understanding gets deeper.

Six, I hope you keep on posting with us - good times and bad - and we can learn from each other then  


Vivek