Need Reassurance that daughters bad behaviour is normal childs tantrum

[newlyhopeful]

After experiencing a bad tantrum from D5 yesterday where she was trying to physically hurt me, I am now scared that she is exhibiting some of the same behaviors as her dad. She was either upset or angry but unable to express it other than yelling and trying to swing at me with her scooter. Even when I asked her later what was wrong she was unable to tell me what she had been feeling. My friends think I am jumping to conclusions and that her behaviour is just that of a child being a brat! On the whole I think I am reasonable at setting boundaries and enforcing limits with her but sometimes there seems to be little I can do when I am away from home without resorting to smacking her which is not the way I want to go.

I think a Positive Parenting Program may help give me ways to make her understand consequences but am wondering whether I should also find a child counselor for her as maybe she is acting out due to the tense relationship between me and her dad and needs someone to talk to. Her Dad has recently started complaining to me about her attitude to him ( this may just be because she is starting to have a more independent mind) Or am I over reacting and it is all normal 5 year old behavior. I don't have other children

:'( NH

[mamachelle]

Hi newlyhopeful,

It's hard to say what is normal or not. She sounds like she has some emotional dysregulation going on. It's best not to project your fears of her Dad onto her. She is growing up with her own set of abilities and tools to deal with her life. You want to give her as many tools as possible. You want to be raising her in a validating environment. It's hard and it takes time to learn but once you do learn how to react in Wise mind-- life gets easier.

I recommend this book highly:

Parenting a Child Who Has Intense Emotions: Dialectical Behavioral Therapy Skills to Help Your Child Regulate Emotional Outbursts and Aggressive Behaviors - Pat Harvey, ACSW, LCSW-C, and Jeanine Penzo, LICSW

It has been a huge help in parenting my kids that have similar issues.

Getting a counselor will help too. With a 5 year old it will be a lot of play therapy most likely which will help her learn new ways to handle stress and things she can and can't vocalize yet.


mamachelle

[motherof1yearold]

First question, do you or your ex spank for discipline?

Secondly, I'd just like to say that there IS somewhere she witnessed/ learned that behavior from.

[newlyhopeful]

Hi motherof1yearold, I dont as a rule spank for discipline? I dont think its appropriate generally but have on a few occasions smacked her when she was really worked up and  unable to listen to what I was saying to try and calm her. It never helps and I always regret it. I personally dont think it is much different to one partner hitting/slapping the other in an argument. I think my ex partner also holds this view, as it was what he would say when we were together. However he is with someone new now so he probably has adopted new views (hers?) who knows.

To answer your second question, Her Dad does resort to throwing things and swinging fists etc when things dont go his way. She would have witnessed some of this when we were together but she was very little and I dont know what she would remember. I dont know what he does around her now, I can only suspect he still does it with the new girlfriend. My daughter doesn't tell me much.

I should also have said in my post that this is not normal behaviour for her, she is usually very loving, caring and well behaved. Her recent school report said she was very nurturing of the other kids and her teacher has said they have no problems with her. Maybe she is jealous of me giving anyone else attention because she has me to herself so much of the time.

Thanks Mamachelle for the book recommendation, I was actually after something like this so I have downloaded it and will read this week. I will also go ahead and try and find a counselor as it can only help

[Matt]

What is the parenting schedule now?

How often does she see her dad, and for how long, and where?

[newlyhopeful]

Hi Matt, we have an informal agreement, whereby he takes her every week on a Wednesday after school and drops her to school the following day and every second week he picks her up Friday after school and drops her back to school on Monday. We did it like this to minimize our contact with each other and it seems to work.

Thanks FreeOne for the advice. I will look out for those books. Im hopeful that it is normal tantrums. I think I am particularly sensitive right now, he has been with the new girlfriend for almost six months and is acting like everything is just perfect and I'm the one with the problem. Its making me so wild that sometimes I dont feel very rational any more.

Newly hopeful

[Matt]

My younger son threw huge fits, especially after his mom and I separated, til he was about 12.  Now he's 15 and doing great.  Some kids throw fits... .

I do think counseling for the kids is a very good idea.

I also think that "informal" agreements are a ticking time-bomb.  This lets the disordered parent project his chaos into your home.  Better to decide what you think is the best amount of contact, and work that out with him if possible, or if you can't agree let the court decide.  Most likely, the court will say to keep it as it is, but if you feel strongly that it's too much time with Dad, you could file a motion for a Custody Evaluator with the authority to administer psych evaluations to both parents, and see where that points.

I put up with S15's fits, and got him and his sister into counseling shortly after we separated (when they were 8 and 10), for about 3 years - that helped.

What "worked" best - it didn't really work but it didn't make things worse - was what I called "staying with him" - when he started in, I would try my best to stay calm and not over-react, but also to hold him accountable for what he did.  If he continued too long, he went to his room.  If he made a mess there, he knew he would have to clean it up.  Never give up on him or call him names, but also never let him get away without consequences.  I remember one time in particular, after a huge fit, he came to where I was sitting, sat by me and put his head on my shoulder, and said nothing, just sat there quietly, which I knew meant "I'm sorry and I want to be forgiven.".  So I just put my arm around him and held him awhile - that's all he seemed to need.

He wasn't cast out of the family, but the behavior also wasn't OK - a mixed signal - "You're good but this behavior is bad" - maybe tough for a five-year-old to understand but within a few years your D5 will get it... .

[mamachelle]

What "worked" best - it didn't really work but it didn't make things worse - was what I called "staying with him" - when he started in, I would try my best to stay calm and not over-react, but also to hold him accountable for what he did.  If he continued too long, he went to his room.  If he made a mess there, he knew he would have to clean it up.  Never give up on him or call him names, but also never let him get away without consequences.  I remember one time in particular, after a huge fit, he came to where I was sitting, sat by me and put his head on my shoulder, and said nothing, just sat there quietly, which I knew meant "I'm sorry and I want to be forgiven.".  So I just put my arm around him and held him awhile - that's all he seemed to need.

He wasn't cast out of the family, but the behavior also wasn't OK - a mixed signal - "You're good but this behavior is bad" - maybe tough for a five-year-old to understand but within a few years your D5 will get it... .

This is very good advice. We don't tolerate property destruction or throwing or hitting. Yelling at us, saying they hate us. All results in time outs. I often go in and hug and comfort the child after a big blow up. I also will say I am sorry if I've lost it and yelled back if it seems appropriate.

It's also important to look for triggers. With my kids there is usually a trigger. It could be a comment. It could be a frustration with something. It could be that dinner is not ready. It could be a sensory thing with a little kid-- like having to go the bathroom and being in the middle of playing and not wanting to stop. Or a shoe that hurts. No kid likes 'losing it' and so the more you can remove triggers, the better it is.

Each kid is different. I have heard good things about Love an Logic as well. We did have a behavior therapist coming in and we were doing reward systems. 5 is also a good age for reward systems. As they get older, kids are less motivated by rewards.

Finally, if your gut says there is something else going on and you are concerned, do seek help from a professional. I spent years spinning with one of my SS who is now 10 only to find out that talk therapy was not enough and there were other serious underlying issues. Now these are being treated and he is doing a lot better.

I think an eclectic approach is best. Be open. Be validating.

[Matt]

"Triggers"... .

I have very mixed feelings about focusing on triggers.  With small kids, it certainly makes sense to understand what drives their behavior, and if you can remove some triggers, and then help the child get stronger, then when he's older he might be able to tolerate those triggers.

A friend (whose ex-wife has schizophrenia) has kids now 16 and 12.  Years ago, the older son would provoke the younger one - poking at him or calling him names - and then the younger one would explode into loud screams.  It was a nightmare to be around them.  But at times I had them stay with us while their father traveled on business, so I had kids (at the time) 10, 10, 8 and 6 to deal with.  I started by talking with the older boy, Aaron:  "I can't deal with Noel going bonkers like he does.  I just can't deal with it.  So I can't have you provoking him while your dad's gone.  If you stay away from him, and find other stuff to do, then I'll let you pick what we have for dinner, and after the kids are in bed you and I can watch something good on TV.  But if Noel melts down, just once this weekend, I'm not going to be in a very good mood, so I'll make something crappy for dinner and you'll all go to bed at 7:00."  He rose to the challenge and things went well - remove the trigger and the younger child was fine.

But... . when you remove the trigger, then the child isn't learning to deal with life as it is.  Noel will always have some Aarons in his life - somebody bigger and stronger who will poke at him to see how he reacts.  So he'll have to learn not to react inappropriately when somebody else is a jerk.

So with my kids now (15 and 16) I don't put any energy into removing "triggers" - they're old enough and mature enough to deal sensibly with normal stuff like a bratty brother or a stuck-up sister.  I don't take excuses like "But she did it first!" - each kid is responsible for his behavior and if he was provoked in some way that's just too bad (though of course if the other kid did the provoking she's responsible for her behavior too).

I've found that my kids took a long time to get past bad behaviors excused by twisted thinking that is similar to their mom's - like "But she did it first" which is not too far from what their mom says.  I've had to be very patient and consistent in calling out the twisted thinking - "We've discussed this before.  You're responsible for your behavior, no matter what someone else does.".  It's working but un-learning is harder than learning.

[Free One]

Matt, you use a lot of Love & Logic techniques, and you don't even know it. 

Love & Logic very much promotes validation (it's what really made it click for me on how to validate), giving kids choices (you set the parameters) so they can feel in control, and enforcing consequences. I actually recommend it to anyone in our situations, because it has taught me skills that have also helped me detach from my ex. I learned more about setting boundaries through their books than any of the others. I think it's because the way the Love & Logic books are written, it makes it easy to start using it right away. I was in crisis mode, I didn't have time to read information, digest it, then put into action. Love & Logic gives you one liners and actions to start using immediately. You don't have to think about it, you can just do what they've outlined, and pretty soon it become automatic. It was like first aid for my situation.

[Matt]

Matt, you use a lot of Love & Logic techniques, and you don't even know it. 

Love & Logic very much promotes validation (it's what really made it click for me on how to validate), giving kids choices (you set the parameters) so they can feel in control, and enforcing consequences. I actually recommend it to anyone in our situations, because it has taught me skills that have also helped me detach from my ex. I learned more about setting boundaries through their books than any of the others. I think it's because the way the Love & Logic books are written, it makes it easy to start using it right away. I was in crisis mode, I didn't have time to read information, digest it, then put into action. Love & Logic gives you one liners and actions to start using immediately. You don't have to think about it, you can just do what they've outlined, and pretty soon it become automatic. It was like first aid for my situation.

Free One, did you give us a link, or could you give it again please?  Sounds interesting... .

[Thunderstruck]

I've found that my kids took a long time to get past bad behaviors excused by twisted thinking that is similar to their mom's - like "But she did it first" which is not too far from what their mom says.  I've had to be very patient and consistent in calling out the twisted thinking - "We've discussed this before.  You're responsible for your behavior, no matter what someone else does.".  It's working but un-learning is harder than learning.

 I like this. I've been trying to work with D8 lately on her meltdowns. It always ends with "but blah blah was mean to me first!" and I have to try to see that I'm not feeding into the who did whats and that her behavior is inappropriate period. I'll have to try to talk to her about it when she's calm and not "in trouble" to get it to sink in a little more. Sometimes when I use the dog's behavior as an example she gets it a little bit more. I could try "If I kick the dog and the dog bites me, whose behavior was bad?". We've already had the "It takes two to fight" lecture but it isn't exactly sinking in.

I looked over the Love & Logic on facebook and the posts look really helpful. I've been trying to get D8 to participate more in disciplinary actions and it seems that that has the most effective outcome. I reserved one of the books from my library to read more. 

[mamachelle]

Matt,

I've been reading and re-reading your last post on triggers and thinking that I should clarify.

I think behavior analysis is good and defining triggers and what happens directly before and after a melt down is a very analytical way of attacking a problem. I have that kind of mind where I need to see the behavior from a detached perspective in order to be able to figure out a solution and not take it personally or be frightened of it.

In my experience, removing the triggers is good if it is reasonable. Teaching kids to avoid the triggers is good too. It's an individual process and sibling fighting is different than an only child. I only know siblings and one set of two siblings my 2 DD13 and 16 sound like your bio kids.

The other scenario you describe with the two brothers and schizophrenic mom is what I deal with on a daily basis for 6 years with my 2 SS  now 9, 10.

We can't have them living in separate households. Mom has BPD and me and DH are the primary care taking parents.  

Here is one example of trying to remove a trigger to the point where the children learn to avoid the same trigger:

The only thing that works for us to reduce physical fighting is to reduce the incidences of close proximity like having the boys sit apart when they are watching TV and also enforcing rules that they can not be alone in the bedroom together except for bed times. No physical contact. No physical contact. Also a lot of monitoring of conversations to keep insults at a minimum. The result is a much lower incidence in fighting and a better awareness of what triggers them.

We also work very hard to 'untwist' the thinking like you say with all kids that allows them to justify the behavior.

Personally, I think it's a matter of degree and I'm not disagreeing with you at all as removing triggers or focusing too much on them could backfire, I just want to say that I'm dealing with stuff with my step kids that is really tough and identifying/removing/reducing triggers has been one of the few things besides psychiatric medicines that works. I actually have a SS 15 that may be heading for schizophrenia himself. For him, removing some triggers is the only way we can be sure that he can cope. It's a double edged sword I know-- but some kids really need a very low stress environment and will just shut down rather than act out. Sometimes my DH and I have to really sit and brainstorm about how to handle a given situation.

It's very isolating and very frightening to a parent when everything you try is not working and the behavior is getting worse. I guess that is where I have been for a couple years and where I hope to not have to go to again.

----

Also, getting back to the original post and your point that having the visitation schedule worked out is important.

mamachelle

[Free One]

Love and Logic www.loveandlogic.com/

Their website doesn't have a lot of information, mostly a lot of promoting of their materials, but the books are completely worth the price. Their Facebook page is really a good free resource. https://www.facebook.com/loveandlogicinstitute

This is one of my favorite books. www.loveandlogic.com/p-139-love-and-logic-magic-when-kids-leave-you-speechless.aspx.

I've found a couple books at my local library and my son's school has a parent's library which has most of the books and many of the audio recordings.

We also have a local parenting nonprofit group who offers classes periodically.

It's a well known program, and you might find all kinds of resources in your local area for Love and Logic just by asking around.

[Matt]

Love and Logic www.loveandlogic.com/

Their website doesn't have a lot of information, mostly a lot of promoting of their materials, but the books are completely worth the price. Their Facebook page is really a good free resource. https://www.facebook.com/loveandlogicinstitute

This is one of my favorite books. www.loveandlogic.com/p-139-love-and-logic-magic-when-kids-leave-you-speechless.aspx.

I've found a couple books at my local library and my son's school has a parent's library which has most of the books and many of the audio recordings.

We also have a local parenting nonprofit group who offers classes periodically.

It's a well known program, and you might find all kinds of resources in your local area for Love and Logic just by asking around.

Cool - thanks!

[Matt]

Matt,

I've been reading and re-reading your last post on triggers and thinking that I should clarify.

I think behavior analysis is good and defining triggers and what happens directly before and after a melt down is a very analytical way of attacking a problem. I have that kind of mind where I need to see the behavior from a detached perspective in order to be able to figure out a solution and not take it personally or be frightened of it.

In my experience, removing the triggers is good if it is reasonable. Teaching kids to avoid the triggers is good too. It's an individual process and sibling fighting is different than an only child. I only know siblings and one set of two siblings my 2 DD13 and 16 sound like your bio kids.

The other scenario you describe with the two brothers and schizophrenic mom is what I deal with on a daily basis for 6 years with my 2 SS  now 9, 10.

We can't have them living in separate households. Mom has BPD and me and DH are the primary care taking parents.  

Here is one example of trying to remove a trigger to the point where the children learn to avoid the same trigger:

The only thing that works for us to reduce physical fighting is to reduce the incidences of close proximity like having the boys sit apart when they are watching TV and also enforcing rules that they can not be alone in the bedroom together except for bed times. No physical contact. No physical contact. Also a lot of monitoring of conversations to keep insults at a minimum. The result is a much lower incidence in fighting and a better awareness of what triggers them.

We also work very hard to 'untwist' the thinking like you say with all kids that allows them to justify the behavior.

Personally, I think it's a matter of degree and I'm not disagreeing with you at all as removing triggers or focusing too much on them could backfire, I just want to say that I'm dealing with stuff with my step kids that is really tough and identifying/removing/reducing triggers has been one of the few things besides psychiatric medicines that works. I actually have a SS 15 that may be heading for schizophrenia himself. For him, removing some triggers is the only way we can be sure that he can cope. It's a double edged sword I know-- but some kids really need a very low stress environment and will just shut down rather than act out. Sometimes my DH and I have to really sit and brainstorm about how to handle a given situation.

It's very isolating and very frightening to a parent when everything you try is not working and the behavior is getting worse. I guess that is where I have been for a couple years and where I hope to not have to go to again.

----

Also, getting back to the original post and your point that having the visitation schedule worked out is important.

mamachelle

Thanks - good discussion and some very good points!

Not to go too far from Newlyhopeful's topic, but my understanding is that schizophrenia is a biological thing in the brain - brain chemistry - not a psychological thing that will respond to talk-therapy much.

What my friend - who was married to a woman for many years who had schizophrenia - explained to me is that if she had received medication early enough, it would have been pretty effective.  By the time she was diagnosed and got medication - I think she was at least in her 30s - it was too late, because her brain had already deteriorated so much that they couldn't get her to take the meds consistently.  She was even put into a hospital where they were supposed to make sure she took the meds, but she outsmarted them - she remained intelligent and determined but her thoughts were crazy.

(She wrote a very long and detailed blog, describing her life and beliefs - a mixture of Christianity and a bunch of other stuff.  Fascinating reading.  I appeared in the blog - she described her husband and me as "death-eaters", evil characters from Harry Potter - not a metaphor to her, she meant it literally.)

My point being, if there is any chance that a young person may have schizophrenia, I think it can be diagnosed and treated successfully, but waiting is a bad strategy!

Matt

[Free One]

One other note on Love and Logic, their email newsletter has good information too. You just sign up on their main website.

[DreamFlyer99]

NewlyHopeful,

Your daughter reminds me of my daughter at ages 3 thru 8. She's 33 now and a wonderful person, so there is reason to hope.

When mine was young, the pattern I see in hindsight was that she would tolerate someone's behavior to a certain point where her feelings overwhelmed her and she'd take a whack at somebody or bite them when she was younger. And who really knows why this was her way of reacting, was it that she saw it with her dad, my uBPDh, not with hitting or biting but with angry words? or was she predisposed genetically to have that flash of a temper? And does it matter? We just need to deal with what is going on with that particular child and how they're reacting to situations, and people have given lots of good resources for that! Wish i'd known about them back then!

With my daughter, while I know it's never good to use violence as a means of "communicating" sometimes my H and I would be thinking, "well, he kinda deserved that!" because she had just been bullied. But we would still have to just go ahead and talk with her about her actions. And honestly as she got a bit older she knew already that she shouldn't have slammed my friend's son up against the piano (bold move since she was a lot smaller) but dang if he didn't just poke-poke-poke away at her till she was fed up!

I can see from here that we just didn't help her learn those boundaries around bullies or whatever, and she didn't know how to deal with something sooner by leaving the situation or whatever skill we could have helped her learn. But amazingly, even with all our failings as parents, she's turned out to be an awesome person with a good strong sense of self who is a delight to those who know her (well, unless they piss her off... . tho she's quit the slamming and whacking forms of communication.)

So many great responses to your topic! i'm familiar with some of the resources people have suggested and I wish i'd known about them MUCH earlier in my parenting career! But don't worry terribly, you are aware of things so much more clearly than I was and will do well with your little one.

I know your daughter was hitting at you, but same deal really. We'd like to teach them to use their words rather than their fists no matter what. And you ARE gonna get there!

[mamachelle]

My point being, if there is any chance that a young person may have schizophrenia, I think it can be diagnosed and treated successfully, but waiting is a bad strategy!

Yes thanks. SS15 is in a very supportive High School program within the public school now for kids with autism and communication disorders and fragile health issues. He is on a low dose of an anti-psychotic mood stabilizer. We keep stress as low as possible. It's been hard, he has many of the negative symptoms and those were part of a heavy depression he slid into at the end of 7th grade into 8th. He has had long standing speech and communication issues and so he often talks in non sequitors for lack of a better word and sees conversations like some other kids with aspergerer's as a means to convey information but not a really two way kind of thing if that makes sense. He began sort of 'rebroadcasting' the weather to us in late 7th grade and it was more than just 'weather anxiety' which is apparently common these days since many kids watch the weather channel and get freaked out by huge storms. That was the first sign that things were getting a 'little loose'. His writing is terrible and makes little sense-- he could never write a blog like your friend's wife  ) His talk therapist completely missed the boat. We missed the boat. School missed the boat. Then boom... . it hit me and my parents (Dad is a retired psychiatrist and my Stepmom2 is a lawyer for kids with special needs) that were watching from a distance and listening to me describe his behaviors that he had become psychotic. He was hospitalized and is doing better since. He is a gentle soul and I hope that he does ok and can live independently as he gets older. I keep a close eye on things. His PDoc and neuro psych refer to him and to his younger brother SS10 as "complex cases".

Again, sorry to go waaay off topic folks. 

mamachelle

[mamachelle]

Love and Logic www.loveandlogic.com/

Their website doesn't have a lot of information, mostly a lot of promoting of their materials, but the books are completely worth the price. Their Facebook page is really a good free resource. https://www.facebook.com/loveandlogicinstitute

This is one of my favorite books. www.loveandlogic.com/p-139-love-and-logic-magic-when-kids-leave-you-speechless.aspx.

I've found a couple books at my local library and my son's school has a parent's library which has most of the books and many of the audio recordings.

We also have a local parenting nonprofit group who offers classes periodically.

It's a well known program, and you might find all kinds of resources in your local area for Love and Logic just by asking around.

Wow- sounds like you all are really digging this so I'll start recommending this love and logic first and then if stuff is really tough go for the DBT skills book. 

As a little concern though, I had downloaded an early version and it had some Christian undertones- I don't know if that might offend people and I also don't know if that is still a part of the program.

 mamachelle

[Matt]

As a little concern though, I had downloaded an early version and it had some Christian undertones- I don't know if that might offend people and I also don't know if that is still a part of the program.

As a non-Christian, I can say that I don't see that as a problem.  Good stuff is good stuff.

Maybe you could discuss that with other staff members.

[DreamFlyer99]

I've read one of the Love and Logic books and I have to say (and that is as a Christian) that it's a much more mentally and emotionally healthy version of Christianity reflected in it, if that makes any sense?

[Free One]

I am non-Christian, and did not find any uncomfortable religious undertones. Just very practical advise.

[mamachelle]

I am non-Christian, and did not find any uncomfortable religious undertones. Just very practical advise.

OK- I am working on getting an official Book Review thread started for Love and Logic Book(s) here so others can find it, use it, comment on it, link to it.