Are they aware of cruel things said/done during disregulation?

[papawapa]

I posted it elsewhere and don't have time to look it up again, but in "Understanding The Borderline Mother" there is a cited study that pwBPD have actual memory problems. When they disassociate their brain blocks out memories. My ex would frequently disassociate when she had been drinking. It was perplexing because the next day she would not remember much of anything she had done, like she had blacked out from drinking yet she had not consumed nearly enough alcohol to have blacked out. Then when I read about the memory issues in that book it all clicked in my head and made perfect sense.

[seeking balance]

Don't worry, I am not taking it as argumentative at all.

I find it easiest to start understanding based on the facts (as opposed to opinions of members here).

As such, article 2 is really really good for getting the facts.

Article 9 is great for US when we get stuck detaching.

I strongly suggest reading Marsha Linehan and for recovery stories, Buddha and the Borderline is great.  Tami Green on youtube is fantastic to watch also.

BPD is a combination of nature and nurture - brain reactions to emotion is more intense  and invalidating environment for someone with really intense emotions.  As pwBPD are raised, the brain itself creates neuron pathways to "soothe" the intense pain.  When a coping mechanism works - it is used again.

If you read the parenting board, you can see that good parents can end up with BPD kids.

The shame you discuss is not necessarily a criteria for BPD - but where we may feel guilt a pwBPD will feel intense shame... . because that is how their brain is wired.  Likely, the "acting out" occurs and unless you are a trained professional, most of life can be an invalidating environment if you really thing about it.

An inability to face things that you mention is the brain protecting itself from the pain - yep, how's that for deep thoughts.  This is largely not a conscious choice by the pwBPD.

Have you ever heard of "self-fulfilling prophecy"?  Well, if someone has an intense fear of abandonment, but believes everyone will leave them - mind you this is not rational, but the brain adapting - can you see how this person may push you away by saying or doing mean things?  It gives them sense of control, a being right.  Again, this is not conscious - it is maladaptive coping through life.

The original question is "do they remember" - the answer is maybe not if dissociated.

Your question seems to be, why do they say these things - to push you away, so that you abandon them. 

Make sense?

[Newton]

Understanding just how fractured a "borderline" mind is can allow us to move past our anger... . and not take things so personally... .

I appreciate it's heavy stuff to take on board but if members wish to research the "MK Ultra" experiments it may help to intellectually frame the level of dysfunction many of us were attempting to cope with in our relationships... .

These documented experiments exposed children and adults to sustained abuse (physical,sexual, white noise etc)... . the purpose was to create highly suggestible human beings who would respond to triggers... . the aim was to create a dissociative state in a person where they would act in a "fugue"... . with little memory afterwards... . some would call it the "fog of war"... .

PwBPD have often experienced sustained abuse at a very young age... . In order to avoid the sheer horror of remembering that physical and emotional pain, they dissociate at times of high stress.  The stress may not be perceived by us... . yet it is very real for them... . We are inadvertantly triggering supressed feelings of rage, shame, grief... . and therefore we are the target for the reaction... . abandonment and engulfment are very real threats... .

That is why the patterns of break ups are such a common theme here... . we become their trigger, our attempt to "be there" for them exacerbates their acting out/in... that is the catch 22 of BPD... . what they crave, they fear... . the maladaptive coping mechanisms which we experience are simply their means of survival.

[seeking balance]

PwBPD have often experienced sustained abuse at a very young age... .

Newton gave you all great information and to piggy-back here:

Keep in mind, this is how they feel because there is significant evidence that a pwBPD brain has a higher sensory area in the part of emotion... . so there may certainly be very real abuse in a lot of our partners, it also may be perceived abuse and stories recreated to match the emotions.  This is seen on the parenting boards.

This is why it is so important to use the communication tools... . it naturally validates if used properly.

[IamDevastated]

If you want pay-back for all the wrongs that were done to you - work on your own self worth - a person with worth does not accept abuse they seek out equally compatible folks/partners who believe they deserve to be treated well - they don't stick around.

Very true words. This is in fact the only thought/mindset that is offering me any sort of comforting feeling right now. I dream of the day when I have worked so much on myself that I am the person with self worth and boundaries that are strong enough that people of like mind and heart - good, compassionate people - will simply just gravitate towards me.

I had a rough childhood myself and was pretty severly abused mentally and emotionally. Further adding to the pain of my exBPDs abuse of me and breakup is the fact that I now realize how my childhood literally made me a walking, open wound for exBPD or someone like exBPD to infest. She even said to me once verbatim: You (my name) are like a big crusty sore! Someone just needs to scratch the crusts a little and they will crack... .

At the time I didn´t know what she meant. But I realize now she had me figured out at that point in time. What a horrible dynamic of this world: that your own hardships and rough past can make you a target for such predators. .

The things about myself and my past which exBPD unknowingly taught me are etched into my brain and innermost parts of my soul in marble stone!

They are etched with pain.

That´s why I will never forget.

[MammaMia]

Seeking Balance

Hypersensitivity is very interesting.  I know this is off topic, but... .

My dBPDs is "hypersensitive" to both light and sound.  Although he says he really does not care what other people think of him, he IS hypersensitive to what they say and do, i.e. the neighbors leaving their lights on at night is directed specifically at him.  Slamming doors and having their windows open are as well.

He believes this is harassment:  things done on purpose to annoy him.

He also recalls things from his childhood that he describes as abusive... . primarily statements I supposedly made about him being a loser and a failure.  These statements never happened.  This must be where the "perceived abuse" from his heightened emotions comes into play.  HE felt like a failure, so he "created stories" in his mind (that he believes) which attribute these statements directly to me. 

I always thought he was making things up, but I realize now, he truly believes I said these things.

[Ittookthislong]

i cant say for sure but im coming to terms with the fact that i do have borderline tendencies,(only during the break up), and in reaction to the silent treatment, and various really really passive aggressive low blows i lost my head and raged. then we would talk and id feel good, id let go, but my heart felt so broken, i mean it literally was mildy aching for days, weeks months straight so id get so angry that i had to navigate through everything alone after everything i put into the relationship and i was so angry that i had to just go off out of nowhere id send a gazillion angry texts. im hoping its ptsd. but yeah id say some downright cruel things,

so the question was whether they know how cruel they were being, i dont know because im not sure if i am BPD (no cheating, lying, abrupt exits or fights, but like i said i behaved like a vicious pit bull at the break up) if i am BPD- then hopefully this will help telling how i felt, feel. I can honestly say that I was so confused. the break up was a total shock. I dont remember being cruel to him and everything was fine so i didnt see it coming... . plus we were planning to move to a town together, i moved there first then he dumped me via text... . so I literally was all alone, had already spent my money on him and I, I was too hurt to get out and meet people, i had nobody to take me out for drinks and distract me, and i felt SO SO SO rejected, and ashamed because I didnt know for sure if he was right, that I had treated him badly and didnt realize it, so go in these wierd cycles. Id text and just want closure and talk peacefully and feel good for a few days... . then id be in a situation like my breaks would go out in my car and id think of all the money i spent on this person who didnt say thank you and id go into a complete hot headed texting frenzy, which he continued to ignore- which pissed me off more, because he was doing this whole "I am acting like an adult" taking the high road thing... . he was doing no contact on me as though i was nuts which made me nuts. Then hed say something that implied i needed help and that would just send me over the edge, because i felt like anybody that gave so much, babied, took care of, was lied to, dumped by text after living together on my dime would be angry but he couldnt let me be angry that was abusive. then id miss him after calming down and feel HORRIBLE. I still feel horrible, so if i am BPD... . then yes, BPDs do know and feel terrible about the rage.

thing is id pep myself up and be like, im a strong person i can do this, i dont have to handle this so terribly and id text back saying sorry and id genuinly mean it, then he would say something totally ... . again... . very passive aggressive and condescending to get me going again and by the end of the conversation id be raging again. then id find out he was retelling our story to mutual friends making me look crazier and more controlling than i was even acting(hard to do trust me)

the guy knew me. he knew my insecurities, he knew which buttons to press, i think BPDs tell alot about themselves early on and just hand over their baggage too much, so when they feel like they are about to be abandoned you can hurt them more than anybody in the world and they know it. thats how i felt this time along.

ive been abandonned, ive been hurt, but this time was different. the circumstances left me completely shocked, alone, no support, barely any money left, with heartache, and being insulted and ignored i just lost my mind. i had a meltdown. so if im BPD or not, i know that feeling of complete terror and abandonment and it was HORRIFIC. a feeling i cannot put into words. it was so bad that it felt cruel that he wouldnt help me get through it, even knowing full well it wasnt his job after a breakup, but maybe thats what they feel. It was like I needed to depend on the same person who was hurting me so bad that i needed to depend on someone and his put downs, or calm "nice guy" demeanor about me needing to talk to someone through me into more rage, and spewing the most venemous things i could think to say. then feeling the obscene guilt afterwards.

that was probably the longest answer ever, but im trying to empathize and explain what i think a BPD person feels, because i think i felt like one. and i didnt mean the things i said and i did feel guilt but it was like he didnt hear me, he didnt realize how bad it hurt and that i didnt have anywhere to turn this time, and i never saw it coming, and that seemed so unbelievably unfair. i literally had a break down.

[Undone123]

I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. I said some nasty things... . I own them. They were horrible. We all can get pushed to breaking point. My exes family thought I was having a break down, I lost it so much. I did the same sent horrible texts. I don't care what people think. I was on the inside. In the week leading up to my "break down" my ex was dysregulating really badly. I then ended up in a situation where I felt I lost my career, and yes I said stuff that was out of order, but there is only so much people can take... .

The important thing is to learn from it. I got into that situation because I wasn't assertive enough before hand. I didn't set a boundary. I had a go... . So since I have been working on being more assertive, and setting boundaries.

If you don't know they are BPD, as I didn't, you expect a functional relationship with a functional person, but that doesn't happen. So forgive them and yourself.