I messed up badly, now I have to get out.

[Depression = 72% of members]

During a recent a spell of being painted black, I sent a direct, no-nonsense email conveying that I'm there for her, and I care.

The day after reading this, she painted me white again. And came the happy, enthusiastic texts at 9am, and talking for hours as if it was back when we first met.  I didn't know what to make of it, but took it at face-value, knowing it could crumble at any moment.

After about a week and a half of initiating texts with me every day, she goes silent one night. I joke that she disappeared like David Copperfield. No response.

The next day, she texts me in the morning, apologising. I make her laugh about it, but she still seems off. Sooner or later, she opens up to reveal the reason why she went quiet last night: the recent ex-fiance wants nothing to do with her and she's upset about it. I had an inkling this was an issue.

I tried my HARDEST not to judge or get angry, and I offered her sound advice/comfort; told her I loved her, and I'd be back when she felt better. But it was then that she proceeded to open up to the fullest.

Calmless was kept, and good advice was given until she said she fears he won't talk to her ever again. I then reminded her that her and I've said it to each other on numerous occasions over the course of seven years, but she said it's different -- that her fiance meant more, and I lost it.

I asked her what she thought all the years of her and I going back and forth were about, but she said she didn't have the strength to go through it right now (meaning, she cannot answer). I explained to her what it's like watching her jump from man to man, while being the man who's cared the most for her, and she had no retort.

The feeling hit me so hard that I couldn't hold back, and I let her have it. All I could think about was her comparing her ex-fiance to a toy she couldn't have anymore (her words). She retreated into her shell, and apologised. I tried to get her out of it again, but I know it's pointless now.

I feel like everything I've said and shown her meant nothing. The entire relationship meant nothing. I feel like a chunk of my heart is gone.

I know I've let myself and her (expecting me to be able to listen and talk about her pining for another man she willingly left, who doesn't care anymore) down. But I can't do it.

[Chunk Palumbo]

During a recent a spell of being painted black, I sent a direct, no-nonsense email conveying that I'm there for her, and I care.

The day after reading this, she painted me white again. And came the happy, enthusiastic texts at 9am, and talking for hours as if it was back when we first met.  I didn't know what to make of it, but took it at face-value, knowing it could crumble at any moment.

After about a week and a half of initiating texts with me every day, she goes silent one night. I joke that she disappeared like David Copperfield. No response.

The next day, she texts me in the morning, apologising. I make her laugh about it, but she still seems off. Sooner or later, she opens up to reveal the reason why she went quiet last night: the recent ex-fiance wants nothing to do with her and she's upset about it. I had an inkling this was an issue.

I tried my HARDEST not to judge or get angry, and I offered her sound advice/comfort; told her I loved her, and I'd be back when she felt better. But it was then that she proceeded to open up to the fullest.

Calmless was kept, and good advice was given until she said she fears he won't talk to her ever again. I then reminded her that her and I've said it to each other on numerous occasions over the course of seven years, but she said it's different -- that her fiance meant more, and I lost it.

I asked her what she thought all the years of her and I going back and forth were about, but she said she didn't have the strength to go through it right now (meaning, she cannot answer). I explained to her what it's like watching her jump from man to man, while being the man who's cared the most for her, and she had no retort.

The feeling hit me so hard that I couldn't hold back, and I let her have it. All I could think about was her comparing her ex-fiance to a toy she couldn't have anymore (her words). She retreated into her shell, and apologised. I tried to get her out of it again, but I know it's pointless now.

I feel like everything I've said and shown her meant nothing. The entire relationship meant nothing. I feel like a chunk of my heart is gone.

I know I've let myself and her (expecting me to be able to listen and talk about her pining for another man she willingly left, who doesn't care anymore) down. But I can't do it.

[Aussie0zborn]

I know exactly how you feel. I had exactly the same situation. And seven years of it, too.

Don't feel bad about it. Your emotional reactions are perfectly normal and reasonable. What you were dealing with was NOT normal or reasonable by any stretch of the imagination.

I would listen to this nonsense about any number of her exes and say, "if they were any good you'd still be with them". This cut her off but then she would try it again the next time.

I'm afraid to ask what you mean when you say "you let her have it" but if it means what I fear it means then getting out now is a good time. What you were feeling at that moment isn't unreasonable and you don't deserve to ever feel that again. If someone drives you to do something that is not you and kills your pride then you should be as far as possible from that person.

[happylogist]

I can relate to you in trying to show love and accept everything, I did it myself, but was not able to be in pain and duality for such a long time as you did... . I think we do not treat ourselves with love and think that we can burden ourselves with everything because we love and care and at one point - the burden is too heavy and there is no future.  So there is no road, there is the heavy burden, the pain and less and less hope.

I also often feel that the relationship meant nothing and I also feel like having a hole in my heart, but I also learned that I need to help myself more than anyone else.  I hope you are feeling the same and try to give yourself as much care and patience as you were giving to her.  At least half of it... . It taught me that I am capable of giving so much, I have the potential of loving endlessly, forgiving endlessly, but at the same time it also the relationship taught me - I am not loving myself enough to put me through it all.  I hope you will be getting better day by day, slowly detaching without hating or regretting. It is hard, but this is the only way to heal.

[heartandwhole]

Chunk Palumbo,

I'm sorry that you are hurting.    That is a really tough situation to be in, and I relate to how compassionate and caring you were to your girlfriend, as she was pining for someone else.  I did that, too, and it was very painful.

I know I've let myself and her (expecting me to be able to listen and talk about her pining for another man she willingly left, who doesn't care anymore) down. But I can't do it.

These feelings are so understandable, you wanted to be supportive and kind. I don't believe that you let yourself and her down, you are just human, and maybe a bit confused about your role, like so many of us have been.  Her job is to take care of her relationships, her feelings, and her life.  Your job is to take care of yourself.  

Is there something you can do today that will be very caring and supportive toward you?

Hang in there, we're here for you.

heartandwhole

[Chunk Palumbo]

I'm afraid to ask what you mean when you say "you let her have it" but if it means what I fear it means then getting out now is a good time. What you were feeling at that moment isn't unreasonable and you don't deserve to ever feel that again. If someone drives you to do something that is not you and kills your pride then you should be as far as possible from that person.

This place as been brilliant. I normally don't like to rant, but it's so bloody frustrating. The fight took place before I had to go to work and I could barely concentrate on the job; I had to go to the mensroom to get myself together. No-one ever gets to me like that, but her.

"Let her have it" meaning, I swore at her and called her a blind something or the other. She was hurting at the time, so I held back a bit. I spelled out every single thing I've felt and been through with her over the years, and she let out a sad "Sorry".

I just wanted to shake her or say something -- anything that'd get through to her and show her how much I care for her, but it wouldn't work; it's as if my words are water on an oil-covered sphere.

Before the fight (when she was notably sad, so I acknowledged it, promising to be back when she felt better), for the first time in a while I said "I know you're conflicted at times. But I love you hit_". And she started crying.

I feel bad in general about today, because I should've been strong enough to handle not being 'Mr. It' in her life right now to just listen. Instead, my ego and attraction to her turned me into a beast.

She started to text me almost every morning. It was great! But somehow knowing she's pining for him makes me so mad. When our 'thing' was sabotaged years ago, I knew that there'd be at least one guy, out of the string of boyfriends, who'd really get her good. It was her ex-fiance, and I just can't tolerate the jealousy I feel inside, no matter how hard I try to be my usual level self.

I can relate to you in trying to show love and accept everything, I did it myself, but was not able to be in pain and duality for such a long time as you did... . I think we do not treat ourselves with love and think that we can burden ourselves with everything because we love and care and at one point - the burden is too heavy and there is no future.  So there is no road, there is the heavy burden, the pain and less and less hope.

I also often feel that the relationship meant nothing and I also feel like having a hole in my heart, but I also learned that I need to help myself more than anyone else.  I hope you are feeling the same and try to give yourself as much care and patience as you were giving to her.  At least half of it... . It taught me that I am capable of giving so much, I have the potential of loving endlessly, forgiving endlessly, but at the same time it also the relationship taught me - I am not loving myself enough to put me through it all.  I hope you will be getting better day by day, slowly detaching without hating or regretting. It is hard, but this is the only way to heal.

Thanks for that. I read it twice. It's comforting to know others've experienced this.

These feelings are so understandable, you wanted to be supportive and kind. I don't believe that you let yourself and her down, you are just human, and maybe a bit confused about your role, like so many of us have been.  Her job is to take care of her relationships, her feelings, and her life.  Your job is to take care of yourself. 

Is there something you can do today that will be very caring and supportive toward you?

Hang in there, we're here for you.

heartandwhole

Thanks. I wanted to be close enough for her to confide in me -- in my other topics I've stated this. But as soon as she starts to talk of her bleeding heart for the ex-fiance, my previous relationship experience begins to flash "ABORT! ABORT!" in my ear. I know for a fact that if I'm too much of a shoulder to cry on concerning her relationship woes, I'll be in an even worse position; she'll have my comfort, my attention, and my love. Then I will be permanently discarded or relegated to being a completely shaven, ball-less wimp. I cannot, under any circumstances, afford for that to happen.

And that's why it's doomed to fail, I think; I know how she works:

1: Get new boyfriend

2: Interest fades in the new boyfriend.

3: New male friend becomes the emotional confidant.

4: New male friend either becomes romantic interest or an orbiter/tool for her to use.

If I'm not going to be her romantic interest again, I cannot stomach her telling me how much she misses other men. We can talk about them, yes. But the missing and the wanting, I can't take - and I tell her that.

I can't lie. I don't want anyone else to have her; I'm possessive of her, as she kind of is with me. But considering the years and years of affection I've given her -- more than any man has ever in her life -- the boyfriend after boyfriend stuff is starting to beat me down.

She sent me a text after work. We spoke and got on. But I don't know what to do. I don't want to be in another Love Triangle with her again.

This is exhausting.

[Learning_curve74]

If I'm not going to be her romantic interest again, I cannot stomach her telling me how much she misses other men. We can talk about them, yes. But the missing and the wanting, I can't take - and I tell her that.

I can't lie. I don't want anyone else to have her; I'm possessive of her, as she kind of is with me. But considering the years and years of affection I've given her -- more than any man has ever in her life -- the boyfriend after boyfriend stuff is starting to beat me down.

She sent me a text after work. We spoke and got on. But I don't know what to do. I don't want to be in another Love Triangle with her again.

This is exhausting.

Chunk, everybody here can see how much you're hurting.    It's so obvious, and a lot of people here have found themselves in the same positions with the same feelings as you.

It's totally understandable that you want to be friends. If you're totally honest, it also sounds like you want more than "just friends"?

Friends, and even lovers, have to avoid being enmeshed to have a healthy relationship between them. When your feelings are so deeply dependent on her feelings, that is a bad place to be because you are giving up control of your life to her. Friends have to have a certain level of nonattachment that is greater than lovers. This is only my personal take, but love between lovers means you put their happiness and well-being on the same level as your own happiness and well-being. Good friends are on a level below that, in that while you love and care for them, you do not put their happiness and well-being on the same level as your own. And I believe we cannot put anybody else's happiness and well-being above our own, at least not for too long, without life going out of balance.

I know for a fact that if I'm too much of a shoulder to cry on concerning her relationship woes, I'll be in an even worse position; she'll have my comfort, my attention, and my love. Then I will be permanently discarded or relegated to being a completely shaven, ball-less wimp. I cannot, under any circumstances, afford for that to happen.

Chunk, tell me if I'm misunderstanding you, but here you sound like you feel like you need her. You sound like you cannot stand the possibility of not having her involved with you in some way. Is this what you're saying?

[Aussie0zborn]

If feel your pain as I have been there myself and I feel you are treading on thin ice for your own emotional wellbeing.

She's afraid her ex wont talk to her again but doesn't seem afraid of losing you? And she tells you this because? That's right, you are her 'best friend' and 'soulmate' and in her mind you are supposed to understand all this and support her. You sound too switched on to be reduced to a doormat like this. My ex introduced the love triangle at an early stage and attempted to root it deep into our relationship. This has dire consequences as to accept it is the start of losing yourself and before you know it you might not just be yelling at her.

This bit about not wanting anyone else to have her was my downfall. If you can't handle this how will you be able to handle finding out she is seeing him or sleeping with him? What will you be reduced to then?

But maybe if you try harder, do all the things she wants she might forget about this guy. Maybe if you did this or did that or didn't say this or didn't say that she would have already forgotten him. Maybe if you were a better person, a better lover, more compassionate, more attentive, quit your job so you could sit there stroking her hair 24/7 she would forget about him. Maybe this is all your fault? Maybe, maybe, maybe... .

Sorry to be a naysayer but I can't see how such a situation could improve or any good reason why anyone should allow themselves to be emotionally abused. The love triangle tears out a little bit of your heart each time it appears, cutting you down as a person. I'll  end the rant here. Thank you. 

[Chunk Palumbo]

It's totally understandable that you want to be friends. If you're totally honest, it also sounds like you want more than "just friends"?

Thank you. This is probably the best BPD site on the web, and I'm pleased to've found it.

As far as the question goes: I don't know what I feel for her anymore. As I emailed her earlier this evening: before, I was dead set on marrying her, even after our relationship was fractured, I still -- when she chased me back -- wanted to be in her life as more than just a friend.

I've run away from her with NC, I've been distant and platonic, and I've wanted to try again with her many times over the years. She has also done all of this with me.

The more I learn about the condition and the more of it I see in her, however, is the more I begin to slowly come to terms with (ie: fight internally over) not being strong enough to be able to deal with her, even though I thus far have for almost a decade. I have extremely thick skin which can reel her back in to me, but there's always that last stumbling block.

So I don't really know anymore. I doubt she knows what she wants from me, either, apart from a Emotionally-Charging Familiar.

Friends, and even lovers, have to avoid being enmeshed to have a healthy relationship between them. When your feelings are so deeply dependent on her feelings, that is a bad place to be because you are giving up control of your life to her. Friends have to have a certain level of nonattachment that is greater than lovers. This is only my personal take, but love between lovers means you put their happiness and well-being on the same level as your own happiness and well-being. Good friends are on a level below that, in that while you love and care for them, you do not put their happiness and well-being on the same level as your own. And I believe we cannot put anybody else's happiness and well-being above our own, at least not for too long, without life going out of balance

I believe and concur. When I separate from her, it hurts temporarily, but gets easier. It's the socialising with her than draws me back in. I can be the most guarded person around at times, but she can often disarm me. And I can often shake her out of her wound-up, guarded emotional state like no-one else can.

Chunk, tell me if I'm misunderstanding you, but here you sound like you feel like you need her. You sound like you cannot stand the possibility of not having her involved with you in some way. Is this what you're saying?

I feel she needs me, but I may be wrong. Honestly, I'm going to be honest here: I feel as though I want to need her, for a multitude of reasons. I'm a person who likes to be pro-active in getting what needs to be obtained and saying what needs to be said. I've never had a woman in my life for so long who seemed as insatiable in her need for affection as she. And with her, I have an insatiable desire to give it, specifically, to her.

I don't know what kind of twisted metaphor can be spun from that, but she's like a bottomless cup and I'm an endless fountain. I could give her my affection until the day I died if she understood it was real. But I feel she selectively does or simply cannot.

I've done and said such sweet things to her that she's wept in emotion. But I've also moved mountains to display what I've felt, to only receive a flicker of a smile.

If you're enquiring as to whether I'm codependent on her, I'd say, to some degree, yes. When something means a lot to me, I fight like a wolf that hasn't eaten for two days. My only weakness is the probably that I fight in vain.

Entertaining the possibility that she does manipulate me, knowing her for years has given me the ability to see it coming from miles and a miles away 98% of the time, and I side-step it. Only when she's hurt, do I feel compassion fo her - all along wary that she might be trying to sucker me. But sometimes, I just want to make her happy, even if it's just for a few days.

Perhaps, this dynamic would explain why I've a 100% success rate of "getting her back", and why she has the same with me, while other people in our lives come and go.

My head is scrambled.

[Chunk Palumbo]

If feel your pain as I have been there myself and I feel you are treading on thin ice for your own emotional wellbeing.

She's afraid her ex wont talk to her again but doesn't seem afraid of losing you? And she tells you this because? That's right, you are her 'best friend' and 'soulmate' and in her mind you are supposed to understand all this and support her. You sound too switched on to be reduced to a doormat like this. My ex introduced the love triangle at an early stage and attempted to root it deep into our relationship. This has dire consequences as to accept it is the start of losing yourself and before you know it you might not just be yelling at her.

This bit about not wanting anyone else to have her was my downfall. If you can't handle this how will you be able to handle finding out she is seeing him or sleeping with him? What will you be reduced to then?

But maybe if you try harder, do all the things she wants she might forget about this guy. Maybe if you did this or did that or didn't say this or didn't say that she would have already forgotten him. Maybe if you were a better person, a better lover, more compassionate, more attentive, quit your job so you could sit there stroking her hair 24/7 she would forget about him. Maybe this is all your fault? Maybe, maybe, maybe... .

Sorry to be a naysayer but I can't see how such a situation could improve or any good reason why anyone should allow themselves to be emotionally abused. The love triangle tears out a little bit of your heart each time it appears, cutting you down as a person. I'll  end the rant here. Thank you. 

Nah, I get you completely. And you know what? You're correct. A Love Triangle ruined the relationship her and I had before; she ended up cheating on me with another man.

She was afraid to lose me then. She begged and pestered me when got another girlfriend. But now, I don't even know if I'm entitled to the jealousy I'm feeling in the pit of my gut. Although she met him years after she cheated on me, she was engaged to be married to him.

And if exercise the utmost of objectivity, I can understand why it bothers her; why she's having trouble getting rid of the ring. But I don't want to understand anymore, she flirted and dropped hints with me when engaged to him.

It's not even a Triangle anymore -- it's a rectangle. She has a new boyfriend, beside the fiance she seems to be re-fawning over, on top of contacting me a lot. It's just too messy.

However, you're right and I'm aware of the things you've said. Fortunately, gone are the days when I used to wonder if I'd said something wrong or if I could've worded something in a better fashion; I'm aware that the majority of her mood swings revolve around just that -- her fluctuating moods. But it's still ridiculously impossible to handle this.

If I'm assertive and available to her, its too much. If I'm distant, occupied, and aloof, then I'm not caring enough.

I did recently find that it helped tremendously to let her know the precise hours I'll be back when leaving a conversation, but that matters little now.

[Clearmind]

I can only imagine how hard it is to witness her jumping from man to man. If it were me I would feel like I could not doing anything to stop them from hurting themselves.

I guess this is the point CP – we really cannot predict, control our ex’s and their actions. Not because we are not with the anymore, because you cannot control another persons actions – we cannot save them from themselves.

It sounds to me like you were triggered – no? Pushed the ‘not-good-enough’ button? You haven’t let anyone down CP – you did what you could with what you had and maybe there is some realizations of late that its over and you can’t go back.

Its tough – you will ride through it.

[Chunk Palumbo]

Thank you.

Maybe I was always on a string. I just didn't know how long the string was.

[A Dad]

Sorry for what you are going through, Chuck.

I have been in that situation... my wife had an affair. It was the biggest shock in my life, the most hurtful thing anybody had done. What was even harder was to see her pining for and missing the other guy when the affair ended after my finding out about it.

Like you, I listened to her and comforted her when she was down although I didn't understand how she can be so blind as to not know how it was hurting me, and why it wasn't her bending over backwards to help me heal if this was really all a mistake... until I found out about BPD.

After that when I am in a similar situation I try to remember that her emotional development is that of a child, so I can stay calmer and more supportive.

A few weeks ago, I also had a blow-up and told her exactly how much she had hurt me. She went into a bit of a shell after that, was very hurt to finally face the truth of how much hurt she has caused and has now decided to separate from me, at least for now. I don't blame myself for it... I am human, I tried to not dump my hurt on her for as long as I could, but I had reached a limit.

To be honest, after the blinkers came off, I had started to see our relationship in new light and realized that it wasn't as wonderful as I had always made myself believe. I think I also reached a point where I realized that I was only trying to make it work because I could not stand the thought of someone else having her. Then I consciously worked to get rid of that feeling, to not be possessive, and to realize honestly that she is not as special as I wanted her to be.

Now, I think I am at the point where I still want to stay together because I care for her and the love I feel for her, and for the sake of our kids. I do not expect to get the same kind of love back from her, so it is no longer a lifetime commitment for me. I think of her a bit more like a gf... we stay together if we can make it work, but it will be acceptable to separate if it doesn't.

Hope you can make the right choice for yourself.

[Aussie0zborn]

... . we cannot save them from themselves.

Well said. It took me five years of banging my head against brick wall before working this one out.

... . after the blinkers came off, I had started to see our relationship in new light and realized that it wasn't as wonderful as I had always made myself believe.

Understandable.

[Chunk Palumbo]

Sorry for what you are going through, Chuck.

I have been in that situation... my wife had an affair. It was the biggest shock in my life, the most hurtful thing anybody had done. What was even harder was to see her pining for and missing the other guy when the affair ended after my finding out about it.

Like you, I listened to her and comforted her when she was down although I didn't understand how she can be so blind as to not know how it was hurting me, and why it wasn't her bending over backwards to help me heal if this was really all a mistake... until I found out about BPD.

After that when I am in a similar situation I try to remember that her emotional development is that of a child, so I can stay calmer and more supportive.

A few weeks ago, I also had a blow-up and told her exactly how much she had hurt me. She went into a bit of a shell after that, was very hurt to finally face the truth of how much hurt she has caused and has now decided to separate from me, at least for now. I don't blame myself for it... I am human, I tried to not dump my hurt on her for as long as I could, but I had reached a limit.

To be honest, after the blinkers came off, I had started to see our relationship in new light and realized that it wasn't as wonderful as I had always made myself believe. I think I also reached a point where I realized that I was only trying to make it work because I could not stand the thought of someone else having her. Then I consciously worked to get rid of that feeling, to not be possessive, and to realize honestly that she is not as special as I wanted her to be.

Now, I think I am at the point where I still want to stay together because I care for her and the love I feel for her, and for the sake of our kids. I do not expect to get the same kind of love back from her, so it is no longer a lifetime commitment for me. I think of her a bit more like a gf... we stay together if we can make it work, but it will be acceptable to separate if it doesn't.

Hope you can make the right choice for yourself.

Psychologically deprogramming oneself is one of the hardest things to do. Like you, I've come a long way. But as far as strength to fully understand I was nothing to her, I don't believe I possess the withwithal to convince myself of it to the fullest. Sure, I tell myself she sees me as nothing for extended periods of time, but I don't like believing it indefinitely.

I do this, because I don't want to face the possibilty that I wasted seven years of my life. I've seen the human being beneath her condition, and I love that person. It's disgustingly pathetic, though, and I'm re-realising it as such.

It goes back to, amongst other things, not wanting to abandon her, I guess. When she opened up to me, sobbing her heart out yesterday, she practically confessed to having BPD traits, and not knowing why. And I should've remained calm enough to discuss and bring up BPD/abandonment issues with her, as I've wanted to for a long time now. But like an idiot, I let my love of her obstruct my love for her.

She said it was fine, when I brought up flying off the handle, but I know her -- she probably wouldn't open up to me for months now if I tried. I could've helped her a bit, but I failed.

Still, she'll be temporarily soothed by her new boyfriend's jock this weekend, all while missing her fiance, so all is well.

[Learning_curve74]

Like you, I've come a long way. But as far as strength to fully understand I was nothing to her, I don't believe I possess the withwithal to convince myself of it to the fullest. Sure, I tell myself she sees me as nothing for extended periods of time, but I don't like believing it indefinitely.

I do this, because I don't want to face the possibilty that I wasted seven years of my life.

Chunk, hang in there, what you are going through is one of the toughest things.    A lot of us are or have been in the same position as you.

I apologize for lecturing, but we can never depend on others to find our own self worth and value. You fear that you may have wasted 7 years of your life, but it's never wasted: you had to go through that time to get to where you are now. And now is the only time that you really can experience. Now is the most crucial time of your life. You will figure it out. 

[momtara]

I don't see how you can blame yourself.  It sounds like you were very loving toward her and she knows it.  One characteristic of many of us here is that we don't feel we are allowed to be human and make mistakes.  The BPD partners can treat us like crap, but if we rage or get angry, we feel really really guilty.  Just because she has a disease doesn't mean you can't feel bad about how you are treated.

It sounds like you were wonderful to her, and she knows it.  And you are allowed to blow up once in a while.  Reading it objectively, you are a prince of a man.  So try not to be hard on yourself.  She knows you love her, and the important thing is that you are a loving person who gave love.  Many never get that chance.

[Learning_curve74]

If you're enquiring as to whether I'm codependent on her, I'd say, to some degree, yes. When something means a lot to me, I fight like a wolf that hasn't eaten for two days. My only weakness is the probably that I fight in vain.

Hey Chunk, hope you're feeling better. I was reading this and something came to me. I know the feeling like you of fighting the hardest for the things that mean the most to me, and while that is a strength, it can also become a weakness when it is misdirected. I'm not saying that is the case in this particular instance. But it's something that I learned in therapy that really was an a-ha! moment. 

Entertaining the possibility that she does manipulate me, knowing her for years has given me the ability to see it coming from miles and a miles away 98% of the time, and I side-step it. Only when she's hurt, do I feel compassion fo her - all along wary that she might be trying to sucker me. But sometimes, I just want to make her happy, even if it's just for a few days.

My head is scrambled.

One thing we can all examine is our own roles in these types of relationships. From the above it sounds like you are very reactive. How you feel sounds very dependent on how she feels. Then when she drops out of the picture, you may not know what to feel other than feeling empty, sad, or "scrambled"? Maybe I'm wrong, but I know that is how I was ending up feeling when I was enmeshed with my BPDex. And it was turning me into a person I didn't like and didn't want to be. Not saying this is your situation at all, just that you should be open to self-examination.

Maybe now is the time to clarify what exactly it is that you want from this relationship. Can you put it into exact words? It's sometimes hard because it isn't easy to brush away the things we put into concrete writing. But it is worth doing, in my opinion. 

[Chunk Palumbo]

Chunk, hang in there, what you are going through is one of the toughest things.    A lot of us are or have been in the same position as you.

I apologize for lecturing, but we can never depend on others to find our own self worth and value. You fear that you may have wasted 7 years of your life, but it's never wasted: you had to go through that time to get to where you are now. And now is the only time that you really can experience. Now is the most crucial time of your life. You will figure it out. 

That's something I've told myself and a belief I've attempted to coerce myself into subscribing to. But while I may have learned a few things and grown as a person due to my relationship with her, it still feels like an utter waste.

If you go about attempting the scientifically impossible, even though it is proven thus, and you fail, sure you learned something, but ultimately, you failed and wasted your time.

Thank you for the support, though; I really appreciate it. You're not lecturing at all.

I don't see how you can blame yourself.  It sounds like you were very loving toward her and she knows it.  One characteristic of many of us here is that we don't feel we are allowed to be human and make mistakes.  The BPD partners can treat us like crap, but if we rage or get angry, we feel really really guilty.  Just because she has a disease doesn't mean you can't feel bad about how you are treated.

It sounds like you were wonderful to her, and she knows it.  And you are allowed to blow up once in a while.  Reading it objectively, you are a prince of a man.  So try not to be hard on yourself.  She knows you love her, and the important thing is that you are a loving person who gave love.  Many never get that chance.

I blame myself for the last fight, because I am the emotionally stronger of the two, and for all my experience with her and a different DiagnosedBPDex, I should've known better. For the first time in maybe three years, she showed me what was really going on inside her heart and I flipped out, because I wasn't even remotely as important as I wanted to be.

Though it wasn't right of her to marginalise the things I've done and the time I've spent on her, it was selfish of me to coax her into opening up, then unintentionally attack her for hurting my feelings. The need to be #1 in her life shouldn't be able to blind me like that. I could've taught her something in that vulnerable, open moment, but I instead went all "I DON'T MEAN AS MUCH AS HIM? WHY DO YOU THINK I'VE -- DO YOU THINK I'M AN F-ING IDIOT?" and much more stupid things.

She knows I love her, yes. Though experience tells me she may reason I've something to hidden to gain by being so strong/steadfast for her, or that she feels I'm too deep in love to see her real, supposedly ugly self.

As I said: her heart is waxed and my words are water. . . . Sometimes I get through to her, but it takes a special recipe of Waiting, Patience, and Perserverance that I often get in the wrong order at the inappropriate time. Sometimes she will awkwardly try to downplay anything positive/complimentary I say about her.

She still won't have lunch with me/let me take her somewhere fun, even though she recently suggested we should (which I -know- she needs). I don't think my pride will allow me to ask again, either.

Hey Chunk, hope you're feeling better. I was reading this and something came to me. I know the feeling like you of fighting the hardest for the things that mean the most to me, and while that is a strength, it can also become a weakness when it is misdirected. I'm not saying that is the case in this particular instance. But it's something that I learned in therapy that really was an a-ha! moment. 

That's the hardest part. And it's a constant state of self-questioning that I can no longer sustain. For five years, I've called myself both a weakling and a pillar of strength; I've said "I have to fight for her. I'm not giving up" and "By not giving up, I'm giving up my dignity".

The inner-conflict I had/have on this issue used to be so much worse when I questioned myself, so I made my mind up: It's personally weak for me to be bloodied and wounded by her - to leave in a sobbing state and implement NC. But it is strong to perservere and to be there for her while maintaining clear and proper boundaries.

Right now, I feel a bit bloodied. I wish I had the strength, really; it comes and goes.

One thing we can all examine is our own roles in these types of relationships. From the above it sounds like you are very reactive. How you feel sounds very dependent on how she feels. Then when she drops out of the picture, you may not know what to feel other than feeling empty, sad, or "scrambled"? Maybe I'm wrong, but I know that is how I was ending up feeling when I was enmeshed with my BPDex. And it was turning me into a person I didn't like and didn't want to be. Not saying this is your situation at all, just that you should be open to self-examination.

Maybe now is the time to clarify what exactly it is that you want from this relationship. Can you put it into exact words? It's sometimes hard because it isn't easy to brush away the things we put into concrete writing. But it is worth doing, in my opinion. 

You're correct. Within the confines of the relationship, I definitely react to how she feels. When she is down-trodden and sullen, however, I can and have maintained my upbeat pick-her-up attitude and've been frequently successful in getting her to reluctantly dust herself off again. A lot of the time, things've gone like this:

Her (mid argument): Other people would just walk away and say "Fine". But no, not you.

Me: Why do you think I persist when we fight? . . . Because I care.

Her: Because you get a kick out of pestering me.

Me: :| If I didn't care about you, I'd wouldn't even try.

Her:  Why are you still here?

Me: Because I can cheer you the **** up, that's why.

Her: No, you think you can.

Me: (ends up making her laugh).

Her (opens up).

What I want from the relationship, first and foremost, is for her to be:

Happy and for her and I to be able to talk about things (which has only just started to happen again until the recent fight).

*I want to take care of her. I know she needs a lot of love and affection, and admittedly, I yearn to give it to her;

*I want to teach her and help her understand her emotional turmoil a bit better;

*I want her in my life, for the rest of my life;

*I want her to know she doesn't have to use sex as a means to temporarily sew up her emotional wounds;

*I want us to be best friends again;

*I want her to know the gravity of what I feel for her;

*I want to see the world with her;

*I want her to know she's the most beautiful woman in the world; failing that, I want her to know that she isn't the most shameful, evil/deceitful woman in the world.

*I want us to learn even more from each other;

*I want her to be able to confide in me.

Most of which, I'm not sure could ever happen without the strength I often lack.

[Learning_curve74]

I apologize for lecturing, but we can never depend on others to find our own self worth and value. You fear that you may have wasted 7 years of your life, but it's never wasted: you had to go through that time to get to where you are now. And now is the only time that you really can experience. Now is the most crucial time of your life. You will figure it out.  

That's something I've told myself and a belief I've attempted to coerce myself into subscribing to. But while I may have learned a few things and grown as a person due to my relationship with her, it still feels like an utter waste.

If you go about attempting the scientifically impossible, even though it is proven thus, and you fail, sure you learned something, but ultimately, you failed and wasted your time.

Hi Chunk, let me challenge you with a few things. We can understand that our feelings are not objective reality, yes or no? When your BPDex says she feels something and it becomes "fact" for her, you do not accept it in your mind as objective fact, correct? Then what about your feeling that you "failed and wasted your time"? That is a feeling, correct? What are the objective facts? Isn't it simply that we are human, time passes, things happen, and the past cannot be changed? Do you have regrets? Isn't regret a feeling, not an objective fact?

We are all going to die, that is a fact. Then what is the point of being happy if we are all going to be faced with failure, wasting our time, and negation? Having said that, then what about the power of fully embracing our lives in the moment of "now"? Is life just a game to "win" or "lose"?

I don't see how you can blame yourself.  It sounds like you were very loving toward her and she knows it.  One characteristic of many of us here is that we don't feel we are allowed to be human and make mistakes.  The BPD partners can treat us like crap, but if we rage or get angry, we feel really really guilty.  Just because she has a disease doesn't mean you can't feel bad about how you are treated.

I blame myself for the last fight, because I am the emotionally stronger of the two, and for all my experience with her and a different DiagnosedBPDex, I should've known better. For the first time in maybe three years, she showed me what was really going on inside her heart and I flipped out, because I wasn't even remotely as important as I wanted to be.

She still won't have lunch with me/let me take her somewhere fun, even though she recently suggested we should (which I -know- she needs). I don't think my pride will allow me to ask again, either.

You "should've known better"? So you don't give your BPDex any ownership over her own emotions and ownership over her own life? If only you had handled everything correctly, she would've done what you wanted? Is this really what you are implying here?

You know what she needs? (your words) Doesn't this show you how enmeshed you are with her? Is that a tenable position in any relationship, much less a relationship that is "just friends"?

What I want from the relationship, first and foremost, is for her to be:

Happy and for her and I to be able to talk about things (which has only just started to happen again until the recent fight).

*I want to take care of her. I know she needs a lot of love and affection, and admittedly, I yearn to give it to her;

*I want to teach her and help her understand her emotional turmoil a bit better;

*I want her in my life, for the rest of my life;

*I want her to know she doesn't have to use sex as a means to temporarily sew up her emotional wounds;

*I want us to be best friends again;

*I want her to know the gravity of what I feel for her;

*I want to see the world with her;

*I want her to know she's the most beautiful woman in the world; failing that, I want her to know that she isn't the most shameful, evil/deceitful woman in the world.

*I want us to learn even more from each other;

*I want her to be able to confide in me.

Most of which, I'm not sure could ever happen without the strength I often lack.

Chunk, when I read what you wrote here about what you want from the relationship, I see a lot of "her her her" and very little "me". It sounds like the only thing you want from her is for her to talk to you or confide in you. I have a number of friends that confide in me, and it is likely that you do or could easily have more friends that do too. What makes her so special?

You feel that you need her, but could it really be that you need to feel needed to give yourself a certain sense of self-worth? To be able to say to yourself, look I put up with all her BS and I am thus strong and important. If you view it in this light, then you are looking to an external source of validation that not only is inconsistent but can never really give you true validation of your worth as a human being.

I do want to apologize if it sounds like I am lecturing! Sometimes it helps to have a more objective viewpoint to shake us out of our ingrained patterns of thought. I know that I need that, and maybe I'm just projecting on you. 

[Chunk Palumbo]

Hi Chunk, let me challenge you with a few things. We can understand that our feelings are not objective reality, yes or no?

I agree, unless one's feelings align with an objective, generally agreed-upon consensus of a perception of reality. But I may be wrong.

When your BPDex says she feels something and it becomes "fact" for her, you do not accept it in your mind as objective fact, correct? Then what about your feeling that you "failed and wasted your time"? That is a feeling, correct?

I generally accept her feelings as genuinely felt by her, unless there are clear signs of guilded manipulation. Where was it implied that I didn't accept her feelings as objective fact? Her feelings, or rather beliefs, cannot be transmorphed into mine; they are external from myself. Therefore, all I can rationally do is accept her feelings at face value, unless ulterior motives are clear.

The feeling of whether or not I've wasted my time can be a fact to neither you nor I; it's a personal feeling for which I have reasons (which I have given). Having learned something from an experience doesn't negate it being a waste of time. In wasting one's time, one could have learned that whatever one was doing is, in fact, a waste of time. If not, then the possibility of wasting time would be impossible, which it isn't.

What are the objective facts? Isn't it simply that we are human, time passes, things happen, and the past cannot be changed? Do you have regrets? Isn't regret a feeling, not an objective fact?

Feelings remain, whether externally and scientifically factual or not. But feelings, within themselves, remain factual in their existence of being felt within the individual on a biochemical level, which is scientifically-grounded and proven to exist in the physical and beyond the imaginary. The bad feelings that are summoned in regret, despite the reasons for their birth, exist and are real feelings of regret.

But I'm not sure what that has to do having felt that I shouldn't've flewn of the handle with the uBPDex, if that's what you're referring to.

We are all going to die, that is a fact. Then what is the point of being happy if we are all going to be faced with failure, wasting our time, and negation?

Dying is an inevitability, whereas the failure I spoke of was brought about by a choice I made . . . an emotionally-charged choice, but one I decided to make in the heat of the moment, nonetheless. That's why I regretted it, and why I said I failed. Comparing that to the inevitability of death is a bit different, unless failing a person with BPD symptoms is inevitable -- which I do not believe.

Having said that, then what about the power of fully embracing our lives in the moment of "now"? Is life just a game to "win" or "lose"?

Each to their own. A balance of both is desireable to me, personally. Foresight and prudence are useful things. Being able to temporarily forget the future and enjoy oneself is also good -- I can't really subscribe to one of the other as a side to choose.

You "should've known better"? So you don't give your BPDex any ownership over her own emotions and ownership over her own life?

That's a steep step to take. Where has that come from? I said I should've known better than to react emotionally and in an attacking manner, especially as I've read up on productive ways of responding when a pwBPD is opening up like that. She's her own woman with her own world, I've no space on my shoulders to bear her cross as well as mine; I've held and will continue to hold her responsible for her behaviour -- I've never said I've excused her behaviour. Where's that come from?

What I -do- in this instance, take responsibility for is attacking her and driving her back into her shell. That's it. Simply because I've been expanding my knowledge on the subject of communicating successfully with a pwBPD and reacting emotionally, which I did, is not a recommended way to respond. I knew that, but I failed to implement it. Hence, I took responsibility for that and regretted it.

If only you had handled everything correctly, she would've done what you wanted? Is this really what you are implying here?

I'd like if you could show me precisely where I implied such. Again, if I had handled the situation in a calmer manner, she would've had someone to fully open up to (which she was pushing to do at the time), and I would've been able to support her. If both parties stand to gain, I see no dark shade of one side wanting to control the other.

You know what she needs? (your words) Doesn't this show you how enmeshed you are with her? Is that a tenable position in any relationship, much less a relationship that is "just friends"?

I only know what she tells me. All else is conjecture, which I do not have the time to frolick in. If someone tells you they need something in confidence, then you only have that to go on. If she tells me that she really needs to go away and that doing something fun would make her happy, then I can say "she needs to go away and have fun!" and not, as you seem to be alluding, be trying to dictate what she does and does not need.

Chunk, when I read what you wrote here about what you want from the relationship, I see a lot of "her her her" and very little "me". It sounds like the only thing you want from her is for her to talk to you or confide in you

*I want to take care of her. I know she needs a lot of love and affection, and admittedly, I yearn to give it to her;

*I want to teach her and help her understand her emotional turmoil a bit better;

*I want her in my life, for the rest of my life;

*I want her to know she doesn't have to use sex as a means to temporarily sew up her emotional wounds;

*I want us to be best friends again;

*I want her to know the gravity of what I feel for her;

*I want to see the world with her;

*I want her to know she's the most beautiful woman in the world; failing that, I want her to know that she isn't the most shameful, evil/deceitful woman in the world.

*I want us to learn even more from each other;

*I want her to be able to confide in me.

So I wrote all that, and you took the last one as not only the most important, but as the total, quintessential, and undoubted sum of everything I want from the relationship. What you just did is the equivalent of someone handing you a ten item shopping list of various supermarket items, one of which are carrots, then coming home with bag full of carrots, because that's all you wanted to see on the list.

You questioned what I wanted from the relationship (ie: a dual discourse), and then proceed to disect anything requiring a two-way partnership as being enmeshed. If most of the list was about me, it'd be selfish. Most of it was about improving communication, her getting better, and her and I growing as friends. You picked ONE and ran with it, unless you want to put words in my mouth again. Let's try and be fair here.

I have a number of friends that confide in me, and it is likely that you do or could easily have more friends that do too. What makes her so special?

All my friends are special to me. When they're troubled, I strive to help them as well. When they shy away in a depressed demeanour, I also try to resolve and help them -- I also yearn for their confidence.

You feel that you need her, but could it really be that you need to feel needed to give yourself a certain sense of self-worth?

No, no, no. I said that I feel that I want to need her. The self-worth thing is a good angle, but doesn't really fly, as I'm already aware that putting one's stock of worth in another is a one-way trip to depression and PTSD, neither of which I'll never permit myself to have. I have plenty of other people in my life, besides her. But she's means a lot as a person, so, when she's upset or when things are strained between her and I, I naturally feel it.

A sibling's self-worth isn't necessarily weighed on his brother or sister, but the stress, pain, and tumult of the relationship can be present all the same.

To be able to say to yourself, look I put up with all her BS and I am thus strong and important. If you view it in this light, then you are looking to an external source of validation that not only is inconsistent but can never really give you true validation of your worth as a human being

You're making gross judgements about what I feel toward her and what I feel internally. You've thus far assumed, without clear thought, that I:

*assume to baselessly know what she needs;

*have no or little self-worth;

*need to feel big or important;

*want to control someone else;

*am in this relationship for selfish reasons (ie: wanting her to tell me things above all else in the relationship, including her or my own happiness);

And frankly, it's quite presumptive of you. None of these have been anywhere near accurate, and none have been helpful. In responding to the incorrect assumptions, all I've done is help you realign your incorrect presumptions about me. But it's okay -- you have questions and I answered them.

I do want to apologize if it sounds like I am lecturing! Sometimes it helps to have a more objective viewpoint to shake us out of our ingrained patterns of thought. I know that I need that, and maybe I'm just projecting on you. 

No worries . And yeah, you totally are .

[Learning_curve74]

Chunk, I apologize if you feel that I was attacking you or making unfounded assumptions about your motives and behavior. I do not mean any of those things. I am a stranger to your situation and don't know it inside and out like you do. However, sometimes somebody outside of your situation who has nothing to gain or lose can bring persective from a different viewpoint.

I've held and will continue to hold her responsible for her behaviour -- I've never said I've excused her behaviour.

What I -do- in this instance, take responsibility for is attacking her and driving her back into her shell. That's it. Simply because I've been expanding my knowledge on the subject of communicating successfully with a pwBPD and reacting emotionally, which I did, is not a recommended way to respond. I knew that, but I failed to implement it. Hence, I took responsibility for that and regretted it.

I see that you take responsibility for attacking your BPDex, that you feel like you drove her back into her shell. You also say that you hold her responsible for her behavior. So my question is, do you feel that having BPD is an excuse for her behavior? How can she be held responsible for her behavior if every time she does something you don't like, it can be excused by saying she has BPD? Conversely, when she reacts adversely to what you tell her, then you are always at fault because she has no responsibility for her actions? If you are always wrong, can she ever be responsible for any of the dynamic in your relationship with her? Is the key then to have no expectations and to be detached from outcomes? If so, then there is no failure because that is only measured against desired outcome.

She still won't have lunch with me/let me take her somewhere fun, even though she recently suggested we should (which I -know- she needs).

I only know what she tells me. All else is conjecture, which I do not have the time to frolick in. If someone tells you they need something in confidence, then you only have that to go on. If she tells me that she really needs to go away and that doing something fun would make her happy, then I can say "she needs to go away and have fun!" and not, as you seem to be alluding, be trying to dictate what she does and does not need.

Ok, I agree with you that you don't need to resort to conjecture. But we are not just talking about a generic "someone" but a pwBPD, so how often did her words align with her actions? Is she trustworthy? If she is not, then you are putting a lot of faith into words that may not be truthful. I do not believe this is a matter of conjecture, because if somebody consistently betrays their word or tells lies, then you should beware taking their words at face value, right? She suggested having lunch/going somewhere fun together but she won't go with you, and then you say she needs to. Doesn't this sound like you desire to make a decision for her, like you know what's best for her? Are you trying to fulfill her desires or trying to fulfill your own desires?

What about this: if a nonBPD friend kept telling you she would like to go to lunch with you but always kept turning you down when you tried to make plans with her, then what conclusions would you draw from that? Would you change your behavior towards her?

*I want to take care of her. I know she needs a lot of love and affection, and admittedly, I yearn to give it to her;

*I want to teach her and help her understand her emotional turmoil a bit better;

*I want her in my life, for the rest of my life;

*I want her to know she doesn't have to use sex as a means to temporarily sew up her emotional wounds;

*I want us to be best friends again;

*I want her to know the gravity of what I feel for her;

*I want to see the world with her;

*I want her to know she's the most beautiful woman in the world; failing that, I want her to know that she isn't the most shameful, evil/deceitful woman in the world.

*I want us to learn even more from each other;

*I want her to be able to confide in me.

You obviously care about her very much. You have a lot of wants for her to change her thoughts and behaviors, correct? You've known your BPDex for a long time and known about her BPD for a long time. You've also probably seen that nothing you do changes her, right? Can you change yourself enough that you can continue?

All this aside, why not be fair to yourself? In all relationships, we unconsciously do a cost to benefit analysis without being cold hearted. This is why we give acquaintances low effort and low priority but best friends high effort and high priority. Is there something singularly special about your BPDex that she must receive such high effort and high priority but with low benefit/payoff in return? Doesn't your relationship with her cause you a lot of pain?

Chunk, I apologize if you feel that I am judging you or telling you what to do. That is not my intent. I am only asking questions that might maybe help in your own self-examination. You don't have to answer or reply. I will say that I and a lot of people here are hurting and can understand where you are coming from. Best wishes to you always on your journey.