Sense of Self

[musicfan42]

I notice that a lot of people here say that the sex with a pwBPD was amazing however that wasn't my experience at all. It got me thinking to what I really sought from my BPD in the first place... . what was I getting out of the equation?

The relationship didn't last very long-I had the good sense to end it however it just made me pause and realize that I needed to work on myself.

I was really happy with the enmeshment part of the relationship deep down. There was a part of me trying to have boundaries etc yet deep down, I crave enmeshment... being joined at the hip with someone. I feel that I've been a bit clingy in relationships in the past-nothing to the extent of borderlines but still problematic.

I don't feel that I have a strong sense of self yet. I have a foundation... there's definitely a foundation there but I need to build on it more.

I was thinking about my old therapist the other day and I think what is irritating me is that I omitted certain pieces of information that now seem important. I think that I was worried that my therapist would judge me, I felt embarrassed. I know that being a therapist is a job and they know how to say the "right" thing but I feared that deep down, my therapist would judge me. Obviously I realize now that everyone judges others-it's just part of being human and that there's nothing wrong with it... that you have to be able to weigh up a situation and have your own opinion on it. I think that I wanted my therapist to like me, to think that I was a good person whereas I don't think it'd be that much of a concern now. I have better boundaries now so I'd be very clear that going to a therapist would be just like going to any other professional and that you don't always like the clients you're dealing with but you have to deal with them anyways.

I wasn't good about giving people space whereas now I am. I want my own space now too. I know that this is linked to have firmer boundaries. I used to think that enmeshment=love, that love=submission... that if I really loved someone, I would have to sacrifice myself for them whereas that is not the case at all... it's really about being yourself and having someone love you for all your little quirks that to someone else would seem like flaws. I get it now.

I feel like what I got from needy people was:

-constant admiration, attention-at least initially anyways

-ego boost

-a sense of self (in the past, I'd take up their interests... . not anymore though!  )

Whereas now, I don't need constant admiration/attention or to get a sense of self from other people. Getting an ego boost is still nice, I can't lie but I think that's just normal human behavior.

I feel like no one understands a codependent better than another codependent so I've actually made good progress just from posting here... it's helpful reading other peoples' stories, reflecting on my own issues etc.

Oh I think that I felt that love=submission because when I didn't go along with things as a child, I got into trouble whereas whenever I went along with things, I was great etc. I'm not talking about me misbehaving... I'm talking about say, maybe another family member saying something mean to me and standing up for myself. I always got into trouble any time I stood up for myself... I always got the blame!

Can anyone else relate to this? 

[GreenMango]

It took courage to look write this and dig deeper on the whys.

I feel like what I got from needy people was:

-constant admiration, attention-at least initially anyways

-ego boost

-a sense of self (in the past, I'd take up their interests... . not anymore though!  cool )

This part not so much for me.

I always got into trouble any time I stood up for myself

This part very much.  It was the go along to get along in my family.  Dissent wasn't a welcome idea.

Keep moving forward Music.  It'll get easier.

[musicfan42]

It took courage to look write this and dig deeper on the whys.

Thanks!

I feel like what I got from needy people was:

-constant admiration, attention-at least initially anyways

-ego boost

-a sense of self (in the past, I'd take up their interests... . not anymore though!  cool )

This part not so much for me.

Lol... that's okay... everyone's different... it'd be boring if we were all the same

I always got into trouble any time I stood up for myself

This part very much.  It was the go along to get along in my family.  Dissent wasn't a welcome idea.

Yeah-I expected other people to agree on this bit. One part of me says that of course parents have expectations of their children, that it's only natural. I used to think that if I had children, I would just want them to be happy and do what they want  However, I realize that if I had children, I would probably raise them in a similar manner to my parents...  So that has made me less critical of them... more understanding of the difficulties involved in being a parent. Then on the other hand, I remember how I felt as a child-that I was perceived to be the one "rocking the boat" in the house all the time by saying how I felt on certain issues. So I have mixed feelings on this one.

Keep moving forward Music.  It'll get easier.

I'm just wondering what you mean here. I thought you meant "keep working on yourself, you're doing good" however I'm now wondering whether you mean "maybe you're focusing on the past too much here and maybe you need to focus more on the present?" I'm not quite understanding the sentiment of what you're saying there so I'd appreciate some clarity there, thanks.

[GreenMango]

Moving forward is doing whatever you need to do!  Could be a deep investigation.  Could be just a day out figuring out what you like. 

Moving forward in a good way - making those changes that need to be made.

However, I realize that if I had children, I would probably raise them in a similar manner to my parents... huh So that has made me less critical of them... more understanding of the difficulties involved in being a parent. Then on the other hand, I remember how I felt as a child-that I was perceived to be the one "rocking the boat" in the house all the time by saying how I felt on certain issues. So I have mixed feelings on this one.

This will become clearer with time.  It's good you see the grey in there... . where the positives and negatives were.  It's rarely as simple as they were awful - sometimes it is, but many times it's not.

All people have limitations.  Not realizing those limitations keeps you going to a shoemaker for a watch.  Go to the shoemaker for shoes and the watchmaker for the watch.

Lol... that's okay... everyone's different... it'd be boring if we were all the same

So True.  Once we accept those differences it seems easier to accept the similarities - freely without letting the differences weigh us down.

[musicfan42]

Moving forward is doing whatever you need to do!  Could be a deep investigation.  Could be just a day out figuring out what you like.  

Moving forward in a good way - making those changes that need to be made.

Thanks... I like that you put the decision making ball back into my corner... that you didn't tell me explicitly what to do there. The change has to come from me ultimately.

However, I realize that if I had children, I would probably raise them in a similar manner to my parents... huh So that has made me less critical of them... more understanding of the difficulties involved in being a parent. Then on the other hand, I remember how I felt as a child-that I was perceived to be the one "rocking the boat" in the house all the time by saying how I felt on certain issues. So I have mixed feelings on this one.

This will become clearer with time.  It's good you see the grey in there... . where the positives and negatives were.  It's rarely as simple as they were awful - sometimes it is, but many times it's not.

All people have limitations.  Realizing those limitations keeps you going to a shoemaker for a watch.  Go to the shoemaker for shoes and the watchmaker for the watch.

I don't know if it will become clearer. I think life is just messy really.

You make a very interesting point about people having limitations-definitely given me stuff to mull over there.

[musicfan42]

I was wondering what you meant by limitations there GreenMango however I came across this psychological study on borderlines. It said that some borderlines believed that their parents were selfish/evil and that this belief was holding them back from recovery because they'd continually lament about the loss... that someone had deliberately/maliciously withheld love and affection from them. They said that it would be in the borderline's interest basically to say that the parent(s) were limited. I just thought "aha! I get it now!"

Here I am, lamenting... ! They might as well have been talking about me in that situation because that's exactly how I feel about that situation!

I think saying the "limited" as opposed to "selfish" explanation is a bit of a cop-out however I do need to stop focusing on the past so much so I'm just going to try it out for the sake of moving on with my life!

[seeking balance]

I wasn't good about giving people space whereas now I am. I want my own space now too. I know that this is linked to have firmer boundaries. I used to think that enmeshment=love, that love=submission... that if I really loved someone, I would have to sacrifice myself for them whereas that is not the case at all... it's really about being yourself and having someone love you for all your little quirks that to someone else would seem like flaws. I get it now.

First, very impressive post - digging deep musicfan

This was me, my FOO modeled this - still does.  My parents worked together, complete enmeshment in all aspects and I thought that was total love.  I had an 8 year relationship that I was the problem at the end because when a major trauma hit and we were both not 24/7 together (actually, total opposite schedules) I felt alone, I felt unneeded and I imploded it rather than go to T for my issues.

In T, I realized ok separate sense of selves is a good thing - enter BPD relationship.

I did find myself slowly enmeshing and when I tried to pull back away for my own balance is when a lot of the big turmoil came up. 

Re:  parents

I think they do the best they know, but that doesn't mean we don't need to grieve what we didn't get from them.  There is a difference in blaming and acknowledging so we can let go/grieve the feelings of us not getting our needs met.  And depending on how the parents respond as we grow up, we then can set the boundaries that work for us.

Ultimately, I think we can "do" the stuff to heal, but under trauma and stress - it is very hard not to revert back to the coping skills we learned as a kid - it takes sincere mindfulness.

Good awareness - thanks for sharing!

SB

[musicfan42]

Thanks seeking balance!

Yes I know exactly what you mean. I felt alone/unneeded when the other person was busy in the relationship. If I'm totally honest, I still do. It reminds me of how my father was always busy... never had any time for me. I never think that anyone is legitimately busy but rather that they're just avoiding me because that's what my father did... lots of excuses not to spend time with me for the most part... :'(

So it's still a huge trigger for me.

It's easy to end the relationship rather than actually address the issue because I typically blame the other person for not spending enough time with me. I always want more time! Even if someone I love has spent a lot of time with me, I get upset when they have to go. I think this could be a type of separation anxiety?  I try to deal with it all calmly now however deep inside, I still feel the exact same way.

I'm reading up on so much that my logical self is ahead of my emotional self. I know what the wise thing to do is in each situation but I don't always do it! My emotional self is traipsing behind... it's like my emotional self is in the past and my logical self is in the present.

It's definitely easy for me to slip back into old habits. I try not to let it go on for too long though and learn from mistakes now.

I notice that I'm posting a lot about my feelings. I think this is because a lot of people here understand what I'm talking about! Well, writing about rather.

I mentioned to people in my actual life that I struggled with certain emotions like self-loathing and they responded with logical comments "why would you feel like that? you have so much going for yourself" etc and that just made me feel worse. It's NOT a logical thing by any means. I realize that I use a lot of emotional reasoning-when I feel low, I think I'm worthless when in actual fact, I'm not by any means. I was working on black and white thinking for ages and I've gotten pretty good at counteracting that however I need to start working more on the emotional reasoning too.

I am understanding a lot of the tools here now whereas before they confused me so that's a sign of progress. By "confused me", I mean that I understood them in theory but didn't know when I should practice them whereas now I can see when I can apply them in my everyday life.

For me, FOG equals:

Fear-fear over pretty much everything. My father was abusive and that left me feeling anxious/nervous about pretty much everything. Almost a bit too meek/polite/deferential in certain regards.

Obligation-obliged to put others needs ahead of my own. I think that women are socialized to be nurturers and this is part of it too for me.

Guilt-guilt if I dare assert myself/rock the boat etc

I didn't really understand the phrase "take care of yourself" either until I saw a post here saying that "take care of yourself" means to take care of your needs... . to start taking care of your basic needs and then work your way up... . that basic needs are food, clothing, shelter, water etc. I just wanted the term "take care of yourself" defined in simple terms... sometimes things can be made seem so complicated when they're actually not! I didn't feel entitled to have needs before... :'( I think that's why I engaged in self-sabotage before.

I realize that I put myself into the rescuer position because I loved being idealized. It made me forget about my low self-esteem and felt like a high. I felt a high when I was around people who idealized me... who thought that I could do no wrong... who thought that everything I said was right. I craved that validation. That's what I really meant when I said that I got constant attention/admiration/ego boost out of being a rescuer.

I was reading about the Karpman Drama Triangle here and I can see how I have been in all those roles. It's funny that they say that people play games because I've always felt that game-playing was just a part of relationships... . that you have to try to play it cool in relationships, keep your cards close to your chest etc. Nothing about it felt natural... it all felt underhanded and manipulative really and potentially exploitative. The antidote to the Karpman Drama Triangle is basically to stop playing these games. It's hard in some respects because I got a pay-off from playing those games. I got to feel superior when I was a rescuer. I got to feel victimized when I was a victim-lots of attention from others yet again. And when I was a persecutor, I got to express all my anger and felt superior.

Part of me feels like I need to be doing more constructive things than just reflecting however another part of me thinks I need to do this for a while. Perhaps the compromise/wise mind solution is to do a bit of both? In my family, the focus was on doing... never on relaxing or reflecting... just reacting to things so I'm relishing this time to just... feel... and think.

[GreenMango]

That was a cool post.  Lots of things to think about.

There's some real nuggets in there the same for me:

The lag of emotions to intellect.  Check.

The doing/reacting rather than quiet.  Check.

Finally understanding taking care of yourself. Check.


It is progress what your writing. 

[seeking balance]

musicfan,

like GM said, you hit on some major points - seriously good stuff.

Posting about feelings is good practice to understand what the heck we are even feeling.  For me, anger was my "goto" emotion... . it was the one allowed and it typically resulted in action.  Anger is simply a mask for hurt, so learning how to be hurt and not "do something" about it, wow - it has taken serious discipline.

I have found that I spend less and less real time with people who cannot handle real conversations.  I understand it is their discomfort, but I now seek real connections.  And I have them... . my quality of compassionate people has changed so much and that would never have happened if I stayed in my old life, my old thinking, my old way of not letting myself have needs other than the basics.

I seem to be rambling a bit in response - the post has me thinking many directions - good stuff musicfan - I don't say that lightly 

[DesertChild]

I'm reading up on so much that my logical self is ahead of my emotional self. I know what the wise thing to do is in each situation but I don't always do it! My emotional self is traipsing behind... it's like my emotional self is in the past and my logical self is in the present.

It's like that for me too. My emotional self never really got to develop fully, so I'm not sure how to trust it. I've been trying to free it up and make it mature, but it's long, hard and slow. (Also to connect my logical and emotional self).

Taking acting classes, because it forces your emotional self forward and doing therapy... . because after numbing it, it makes it hard to let go of the numbing.

For me, my mom used to tell me that emotions weren't real. You couldn't prove them. I needed to have proof for feeling sad or angry--I needed a logical argument every single time that I should feel this way--and even when I did feel those ways she ranked her emotions as more important than mine (which she was free to have without proof or reason). I knew what she said was wrong, but I still wanted to please her.

I'm not going to say that the same thing will help you. But recognizing it as a factor and letting yourself connect to your feelings might help a little. And if it's gets hard finding someone that can help might not be a bad idea.

I noticed you said that you like the ego boost in your first post? I know this might be a tough question... . and you don't have to answer it, but... . Do you feel you absolutely *need*  that ego boost? Might be something to examine as well.

[musicfan42]

Thanks guys! 


GreenMango-nice to hear that you could relate


seeking balance-thanks! Yes, anger was my "go to" emotion too! I didn't want to feel my emotions... I wanted to get rid of them. Anger definitely can be used as fuel for action however I felt angry all the time and it just stressed me out over the long-run. It is very hard to sit with the emotions and not act them out! To just soothe myself.

I'm studying DBT at the moment by myself and it talks about primary vs secondary emotions. I think that's why I'm posting so much on emotions-because I want to be able to identify when I'm feeling the secondary emotions shame and guilt. I'm aware of my primary emotions however the secondary emotions seem more insidious-they just seem to creep up on me almost!

I notice that secondary emotions seem to occur when I judge my emotions-when I wonder whether it's okay to feel certain emotions. If I just let myself feel the emotion, then shame/guilt typically doesn't occur. Dealing with the emotions of shame and guilt has also made me reflect back on my FOO and be able to see where those feelings originated. That definitely helps me accept the emotions.

I think it's easier to accept the primary emotions because I think "well everyone can be afraid/sad/fearful at times... that's just normal". And obviously feeling joy is not a problem! Whereas guilt is an uncomfortable emotion-it makes me think "did I do something wrong?" and it was hard for me to accurately assess whether I had actually done something wrong or not. And then shame... I didn't want to feel it because it was so painful! I read a book too on how to spot each emotion and how to handle it and that helped too.

Yes, I like being around supportive people now too. I feel that challenging people push the boundaries too often instead of respecting them. It feels uncomfortable and unsafe to be around people like that.

I like rambling so ramble away


DesertChild- I think the acting classes and therapy are a great idea! Therapy is good to explore issues however it can be emotionally draining so if you feel overwhelmed, you can throw that energy into the acting classes. I think acting is a safe way to explore emotions-that you're exploring it within the confines of the character that you're playing. It almost offers you a safety net... that you have to think "how is the character feeling? what motivates her?" but eventually it makes you ask yourself "how do I feel? what motivates me?"

I think creativity in general is a good tool for exploring emotions. Creativity isn't about being logical or right/wrong... it's more about your own interpretation and self-expression and there is an amazing freedom in that.

I went through that stage too of not trusting my emotional self. Even now at times, I sometimes don't trust my emotional self but it gets easier with practice.

I like the ego boost however I don't need it. I don't mind you asking that question because it's an issue I've already dealt with. I had to learn to self-soothe and to self-validate. I sought external validation before because I wasn't able to validate myself. I didn't have that coping skill whereas now I do and that's made me a huge difference

[GreenMango]

You know what seekingbalance and you wrote about new normals or realizing new personal limits like this:

Yes, I like being around supportive people now too. I feel that challenging people push the boundaries too often instead of respecting them. It feels uncomfortable and unsafe to be around people like that.

This was big one for me too.  I didn't realize how much I ignored the uncomfortable feeling of having those boundaries violated - it usually took a big offence.  Totally different approach to what I can let in and it took me awhile to get used to this feeling.  Not feeling guilty about being discerning. 

I'm really enjoying reading your thread.

[musicfan42]

Thanks Green Mango!

Yes, I found DBT so helpful for improving my assertiveness. They mention "factors reducing interpersonal effectiveness" and one of them is environment. In lay man's terms, DBT means that certain things may weaken your ability to be assertive and one of those things is toxic people... that's what it means by "environment". The DBT Skills Workbook actually states that if you're around toxic people, then it's best to just cut contact with them but that if you have to deal with them, then you need to be assertive because they will try to test your boundaries whereas respectful people typically won't! High-conflict people don't respect boundaries-they typically lack empathy or have impaired empathy so they don't care! I've realized that it's really important to protect myself around people like that and to keep myself safe. Before, I was so concerned with rescuing emotionally volatile people whereas now I'm asking myself "are they safe for me to be around?" I found The Bill of Assertive Rights so good too... it states that you have the right to certain things... and I realized that I have the right to feel safe... that it's just a basic right, nothing special!

I ignored my boundaries being violated in the past too. I would feel resentful on the inside yet not voice those feelings until they kept pushing my boundaries and finally I would erupt and completely lose my temper and basically look like a crazy person!

I find that I still feel angry towards some people at times but that I tend to avoid them. If they ring/text, then I might ignore their calls for a while. I don't think it's the ideal way to deal with things so that's something I need to work on. If I'm annoyed, then I need to retreat... I need space in order to get my bearings again.

Another thing I tend to do a lot is change the subject-if someone says something I'm uncomfortable with, I start talking about something else. I don't allow people to complain incessantly- I will listen for about 5-10 minutes but after that, I've had enough. I'm not a therapist so I think I'm only required to listen to someone complain for a brief period of time, not 24/7. Sometimes I will challenge other people and encourage them to look at their options in various situations. Sometimes I use validation-I don't like the concept however sometimes it can be helpful in a difficult conversation when you can't think of anything else to say.

I don't tend to use the "I feel __ when you __" format that much even yet because I hate people knowing how I feel!

I find the line "can we talk about that tomorrow?" very helpful though because it gives me time to think it over and prepare a response whereas if someone just throws something at me out of nowhere, it's harder to come up with an assertive response. It makes me feel pressurized.

Another thing I learned too is to eliminate certain words from my vocabulary when I was asserting myself e.g. replace "always" with "often", "never" with "rarely". I use the word "just" a lot and that's kind of negative e.g. " I just felt", "I just thought" etc.

You're right-it is okay to be discerning. It's more about quality rather than quantity for me. I don't have to like everyone... I can trust my gut instinct/intuition and I can be picky! It's good to have high standards!

Are there any books/tools that you found personally useful to help you be more assertive? As I mentioned before, I find DBT helpful however I'm always open to other resources! There are loads of books/tools out there so it's nice to get a personal recommendation!

[Cumulus]

Hi musicfan, thanks for this post, very timely for me. My biggest problem has been being out of touch and/or denying my emotions. Anger, haven't felt angry for years, not even when I found out my xBPDh stole from work, had an affair, lost a pile if money etc...   But today I felt angry, finally after probably ten to fifteen years. I am in a wonderfully growing and I believe healthy relationship now. It was something this man said to me that made me angry today. It feels rather odd and peculiar to me to feel this way, and as difficult as the anger is to feel I also feel liberated that I am actually able to experience this emotion once again.

So, it was late when the issue came up and we were both tired so I let it slide for now. I will dwell in what I believe to be my righteous anger tonight and address the issue tomorrow after we are both rested.

[seeking balance]

I'm studying DBT at the moment by myself and it talks about primary vs secondary emotions.

Studying DBT also helped me clearly identify my feelings and the situations/environments that tend to bring about the negative ones.  I think everyone should study DBT - it is like emotional kindergarten. 

Another thing I learned too is to eliminate certain words from my vocabulary when I was asserting myself e.g. replace "always" with "often", "never" with "rarely". I use the word "just" a lot and that's kind of negative e.g. " I just felt", "I just thought" etc.

I am careful with my words now too... .so agree with the word "just" - when I realized that word was ME invalidating ME - wow.

Are there any books/tools that you found personally useful to help you be more assertive? As I mentioned before, I find DBT helpful however I'm always open to other resources! There are loads of books/tools out there so it's nice to get a personal recommendation!

My biggest growth influence this year is Brene' Brown.  Gifts of Imperfection and Daring Greatly.  I started with TED talks and watching her 2 part interview on OWN - Super Soul Sunday (you can see it online).  It is data driven research presented in real/actionable way - very much aligns with boundaries, shame reduction and accepting ourselves... .simply, being happy.

I am embarrassed to say my next one - it is so pop culture - but Dr. Phil's book Lifecode - direct approach at recognizing abusers, boundary busters, and how to deal with them.  He starts out saying, "they present as your friend".  When I read it, I could see the patterns where I ignored my gut, gave benefit of the doubt and eventually got disappointed in a big way.  Less clinical and more practical - like taking off the rose colored glasses.

this is such a great thread!

[musicfan42]

cumulus- you're welcome! Yes, I think that it's so good to feel our emotions!

seeking balance- thanks for the book recommendations-really appreciate it

[GreenMango]

This thread is making me want to do some DBT myself.

As far as books for assertiveness... .no books really.  Mostly as I've worked on acceptance (had a series of family loss - which kind of forced this issue) it's become easier to say things and share.  I'm less tied to outcome/loss. Letting go has become easier, it's not so much not caring - just realizing what's done is done, some things I don't have control over. 

I've pared down quite a bit too.  I really like peacefulness and the last few years have been a crash course on this, what to do - what not to do.  I've noticed when to nip things in the bud early - procrastinating made things worse.  I'm more selective on what I'm letting in and what I need to let go of as far as relationships.

Though I do try to use SET with the more emotionally reactive or "boundary busters" in my life (family and a one long term friend - 20 years ... .but I try not to invite more in managing these take a lot of emotional energy as is, so acquiring new ones isn't an option I don't have the energy).  It's not always the easiest but it tends to work well when I need to be assertive and want to maintain a healthier relationship.  I have a better read on people... .I tend to watch and listen more.  I've become a better listener.

I'm with SB on the Brene Brown books.  Good Stuff.  Crazy how good it is.

Some of the books I've read: Boundaries - Cloud & Townsend (It's churchy but I don't mind) it's a good basic on helping define what's important to me and how to walk that walk more because I feel it gives me some integrity.  Thich Nat Hahn - Being Peace, Beyond Self, Reconciliation - those books helped to wrap my head around some difficult feelings.  And anything Camus - The Plague.  The Stranger.  He has a way of articulating his philosophy into novel form that communicates the meat of the message.  And, I think he was cool.

Another thing I tend to do a lot is change the subject-if someone says something I'm uncomfortable with, I start talking about something else. I don't allow people to complain incessantly- I will listen for about 5-10 minutes but after that, I've had enough. I'm not a therapist so I think I'm only required to listen to someone complain for a brief period of time, not 24/7. Sometimes I will challenge other people and encourage them to look at their options in various situations. Sometimes I use validation-I don't like the concept however sometimes it can be helpful in a difficult conversation when you can't think of anything else to say.

I don't tend to use the "I feel __ when you __" format that much even yet because I hate people knowing how I feel!

I find the line "can we talk about that tomorrow?" very helpful though because it gives me time to think it over and prepare a response whereas if someone just throws something at me out of nowhere, it's harder to come up with an assertive response. It makes me feel pressurized.

I've noticed this too.  I used to change the subject more, but I've realized that I didn't have boundaries or lead people to believe I didn't so I'm forcing myself to articulate my limits.  I'm realizing that I'm more inclined to listen to things that are constructive.  If it's a solid gripe session I just don't have it in me anymore.  I'm exercising this statement more and more, "I don't feel comfortable with this conversation" and "This sounds like a conversation you might want to have with so and so... .I think it might be more productive", and I'm a huge fan of questions.

I don't use the I feel [blank] when you do [blank] either... .the  "can we talk about that tomorrow?" is a good one. 


I have a creeping suspicion as I get older I might be one of those people that doesn't talk too much, but listens and watches.  

[musicfan42]

Thanks for the book recommendations GreenMango!:) I'll make sure to check them out!

It's cool that you want to try DBT. I think "The DBT Skills Workbook" by Matthew McKay et al is very effective. It's available on amazon. I also found www.dbtselfhelp.com and this DBT handbook here www.bipolarsjuk.se/pdf/Handbook%20in%20DBT%20Group.pdf helpful.

Marsha Linehan uses a lot of analogies in DBT that I like: "build a life worth living", "don't make a bad situation worse". Oh there's this other one too "you may not have caused your problems but you have to solve them anyways"-it's sort of like a response to the old "life's not fair" argument really . These slogans are used in DBT to apply to borderlines however I think they're tools that anyone could use.

The "build a life worth living" slogan basically means that you have to create meaning in your own life-that it's not going to just happen automatically by itself. DBT suggests that having stable relationships, career, friendships and interests of your own e.g. hobbies is a good way of building a life worth living. It's all common-sense but it's really about putting it into practice! I think that it could be helpful to codependents-to realize that they have to be whole by themselves-that they don't need a relationship to make them feel good... that they can make themselves feel good... that they can self-validate.

I also like the "don't make a bad situation worse" one too. It basically means that if you feel bad, to take care of yourself... to self-soothe, to help yourself out instead of doing something self-destructive or instead of moping about or instead of avoiding or giving up etc etc. Again, it's not rocket science however it's just a nice reminder to practice self-care.  

There's a tool in the interpersonal effectiveness section that I actually use to assess other people: FAST.

It means:

F-to be fair to yourself and others

A-no apologies (or just apologize once)

S-stick to values

T-truth... tell the truth

If someone is being fair to me, sticking to their values and being honest, then I think "ok they're respecting me". I don't like people apologizing all the time but not having any follow-through so I like the way it says "no apologies or just apologize once".

[seeking balance]

The "build a life worth living" slogan basically means that you have to create meaning in your own life-that it's not going to just happen automatically by itself.

This is my favorite one also.  I have focused on this along with another saying I heard that said "build a new normal" as I have made choices moving forward with my life. 

When I first found this forum and I was reading Linehan's stuff because I was still with my ex - I had posted asking if anyone here had tried DBT for grief or PTSD.  Since then, I have found out that  T's are using it with teens for anorexia and drug problems.  Again, it really is emotional kindergarten and builds accountability and self-worth without shame... .love the skills.

[GreenMango]

I'm sure there are great books on assertiveness but this seems like the heart of being assertive

There's a tool in the interpersonal effectiveness section that I actually use to assess other people: FAST.

It means:

F-to be fair to yourself and others

A-no apologies (or just apologize once)

S-stick to values

T-truth... tell the truth

[musicfan42]

GreenMango-yes, I agree... it's a very useful acronym.

Seeking Balance- oh I really like that phrase "build a new normal"!:)