Advice needed

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello all -

I have my first four way with my hopefully very STBX uBPDh and I was just wondering if anyone had any advice on what to do, not do, what to say, not say.  Anything.

I've been painted black for a few weeks now so I'm a bit worried that after this sit down things will get really ugly and we still live in the same house.


Any advice you can offer is greatly appreciated.

[MovingOnForLife]

Hello all -

I have my first four way with my hopefully very STBX uBPDh and I was just wondering if anyone had any advice on what to do, not do, what to say, not say.  Anything.

I've been painted black for a few weeks now so I'm a bit worried that after this sit down things will get really ugly and we still live in the same house.


Any advice you can offer is greatly appreciated.

[Waddams]

Sorry maybe I'm lame for not knowing, but what do you mean by four way?

If it's a conference with lawyers, mediators, judges, etc., then I'd just suggest to relax and not say too much to start with.  Let the L's talk, let STBX uBPDh do his thing no matter how ridiculous, and don't agree to anything you aren't comfortable with.  Sometimes the L's and mediators will push you to accept things you don't want to.  It's part of their job really.

It's also okay, to say "I need to think about it" and tell them you'll let them know tomorrow after considerations.

Just remember the proverb that says "better to be thought a fool and stay silent then open your mouth and prove it."

All that said, what are the issues that need to be solved?  Any kids involved?  Who gets the house?  or is it to be sold?  Time table for one of you to move out?  Distribution of assets/property?  Try to boil down everything that isn't related to kids to a business decision, and try not to get too emotional.  Kitchen tables can be replaced.  Obviously heirlooms can be different, though.

So think ahead of time about what you want, and also what you need to get out of all this to land on your feet and move ahead to a successful new life. 

[ForeverDad]

Some things I learned long ago... .  Don't let other people make their problems your problems.  Everyone has an agenda.  Fine, but you're allowed to have your own agenda too.

And don't let the pressure of making a decision quickly bend you into something you'll later regret.  As Waddams wrote, say you need more time to consider the offer/demand/option/whatever.

[Matt]

Think about what your objectives are - if there are kids, what is the best custody arrangement?  Who should pay alimony and/or child support, and how much?  What about the house and other assets?  Get your objectives clear in your mind and go over them with your lawyer, and ask her for a plan to achieve them.

Then talk with your lawyer about how this initial conference will fit into your plan.  For example, you might prepare a written settlement offer and give it to the other side, or you might prepare to tell the other party what outcome you believe is best and why, and see if a settlement is realistic at this stage, or if you will need to prepare for trial.

Make sure you understand from your attorney how the process works where you live - what the steps are and how long they usually take.

Also, make sure your attorney understands that the other party has at least some of the behaviors associated with BPD, and what that means.  If you haven't both read "Splitting" by William A. Eddy, you might want to do that before talking to the other side - a whole lot of time and money can be wasted if you try to deal with them the way you would deal with most parties in a divorce.

[MovingOnForLife]

Thank you all for your advice. A four way is when my lawyer and I sit down and try to negotiate a settlement with my STBX and his lawyer.

My situation is complicated.  The house we live in was his house before I met him and he made me sign a pre-nup six days before my wedding, which he told me was only to waive my rights to the house.  I now find out that he included his 401k/pensions.  I only work part time and I have two kids so I would be homeless with no money.  Not only was he verbally abusive he was financially abusive as well.  His money was his money and my money was our money.  The house is his hot button item and one that will make his true monster colors come out.

He is a terrible father and he never helped me raise the children and never spends anytime with them.  For example, the other night I went out and he sat in the basement while my kids D8 and S6 were upstairs by themselves for about 1 1/2 hours, only coming upstairs to put them to bed.

From what my L is telling me, the courts in NY where I live don't like to remove the kids from the marital residence and since there is no way in h**l he'll ever get the kids she thinks I have a good shot at staying in the house for at least the next few years.

That's basically all I want.  The house, the kids and child support and maintenance. Oh yeah ... .And to never see that monster again.

Thanks again!

[ForeverDad]

In many states prenups are unenforceable unless both parties had separate lawyers.  Did you have your own lawyer to advise you?  Whether or not you had a lawyer to advise you back then the week before you married - you could possibly state you were pressured into signing due to if for no other reason then is was just before the wedding - you ought to find out how much impact that prenup has legally.  Quite possibly it could be mostly bark and little bite.

A quick web search came up with numerous references including comments such as these:

Prenuptial Agreements are valid in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. At least 26 states have enacted a variation of the Uniform Premarital Agreement Act (UPAA), which encourages the enforcement of all prenuptial agreements. Despite their enforceability, a premarital agreement can be set aside for fraud, duress, failure to disclose, unfairness, and failure to be adequately represented. Both sides should have independent legal counsel to advise them in the drafting and review of the prenuptial agreement... .All states require that there be full disclosure of all property and assets and that each spouse be fully aware of what they are getting and giving up. If either side is not represented by counsel, or even poorly represented, these agreements can be set aside.

You can find an article on Forbes in April that listed there... .

Five Reasons Your Prenup Might Be Invalid:

1.  The agreement is fraudulent... .

2.  The agreement was coerced, signed under duress or signed without mental capacity... .

3.  The paperwork wasn’t properly filed in the first place... .

4.  You signed without proper legal representation... .

5. The agreement contains ridiculous provisions... .or is simply too lopsided... .

In summary, in order for a prenup to be effective, both parties must have their own separate attorney. Plus, the prenup must be:

• Written. Oral prenups are not valid.
  
  
• Executed voluntarily and without coercion. A prenup that’s signed the day before the wedding can be invalidated.



• Executed only after full disclosure. If you hide assets and/or liabilities, you run the risk of invalidating the prenup.



• Conscionable. A prenup cannot be unconscionable. In other words, the prenup could be invalidated if the agreement is too lopsided, with one party awarded almost everything and the other receiving only a pittance.



• Executed by both parties, preferably in front of witnesses (or a notary). Some attorneys even recommend having a judge witness the signing to make sure that neither party was coerced into signing.



• Written in a recordable format, such as a real estate deed.

... .it’s critically important to consult with professionals who have the expertise to help you navigate these sometimes choppy waters and plan for a secure financial future.

[MovingOnForLife]

Thank you Forever dad!  You just made my day!

I did not have my own lawyer to advise me.  He called me at work that morning and told me he was going to pick me up during my lunch hour to bring me to his lawyer to sign the pre-nup.  I signed the papers and he dropped me back off at work.

Looks like this is really going to get ugly now.  He seems to think that pre-nup is rock solid so the house "is off the table."  We'll just see about that!

[ForeverDad]

So he had his lawyer but you didn't have any.  Possibly it's not required in your state for both persons to have different attorneys?

Since state laws vary, it would be helpful to find out what your state's laws are and what is enforceable or not.  Besides the issue of last minute notification - 'blindsided' - there may be other reasons to contest, such as needing a home or residence to raise the children.  Even the stated position in negotiations that you will oppose the terms of the prenup may make him back off or agree to a deal.  I wonder, is that what your lawyer was going to do but failed to explain the details to you?

[Matt]

I would suggest you go over these issues carefully with your own attorney before meeting with the other side.  Maybe put off the four-way conference til you are sure that you and your attorney are ready for it.  Otherwise it's even more likely to get ugly.

You need to understand whether the pre-nup is likely to stand up or not, and take a strong stand on that, before meeting with the other side.  So much depends on that.

Most states also have guidelines saying who should pay child support and alimony, and how much.  You can find those worksheets - your lawyer should know about them - and work through those before meeting with the other side.  That way, you'll know what the law says you should get before you even talk to the other side.  You can show them those worksheets and say, "This is what the law says so this is what I will agree to."  There may be no reason to even discuss anything less.

If he insists on keeping the house that may be OK, because you can then ask for enough money to establish a good home with the kids.  It might even be better to find the right place, maybe near their school.  (I found a small house, better than our old house, close enough so my kids can walk to school safely.)  Don't get too emotional about the house or that could make things more difficult.

[MovingOnForLife]

Forever dad - When my L looked over the pre-nup she asked me a few questions and then said that we've probably have to litigate over it.  Unfortunate for me I never asked her to explain why.  

I'll be meeting with my L before the four way and plan to go over all this with her.

Thanks again for your advice and the links!

[MovingOnForLife]

Matt- thanks for your response. 

I am meeting with my L before the sit down so I'll be able to go over everything with her.  And if I'm not comfortable I'll have no problem rescheduling the sit down.

My L has already told me we will most likely have to litigate over the pre-nup so I suspect something is up.  I'm not emotionally attached to the house.  I'd actually like to get a new place but my STBX has gotten himself into a financial mess due to his swinging lifestyle so he has no money to give me to get a new place to live.  Not to mention that I want to keep my kids in their school and it would be the most affordable option for me.  But I am willing to negotiate!

As far as child support and maintanence go, my L has told me that my stbx would pay me child support and maintenance due to the fact that I only work part time.  The law says that I get $2000 a month until my d8 turns 21 and I absolutely will not settle for less.  Maintanence has get to be determined but I'm not willing to pass on maintenance.

[GaGrl]

Just because your STBX owns the house and wants to continue to own the house doesn't mean that a judge won't order that you and the children continue to live in the house.  Occupancy and ownership are two different things.

[ForeverDad]

See why peer support is so helpful?  We've been there, done that.  We're happy to share our hard-won experience, insights, ideas and strategies.  We can describe what worked for us and others and you can determine which might help you in your case.  With education and skills you can make more informed and more confident decisions.

[Matt]

Matt- thanks for your response. 

I am meeting with my L before the sit down so I'll be able to go over everything with her.  And if I'm not comfortable I'll have no problem rescheduling the sit down.

My L has already told me we will most likely have to litigate over the pre-nup so I suspect something is up.  I'm not emotionally attached to the house.  I'd actually like to get a new place but my STBX has gotten himself into a financial mess due to his swinging lifestyle so he has no money to give me to get a new place to live.  Not to mention that I want to keep my kids in their school and it would be the most affordable option for me.  But I am willing to negotiate!

As far as child support and maintanence go, my L has told me that my stbx would pay me child support and maintenance due to the fact that I only work part time.  The law says that I get $2000 a month until my d8 turns 21 and I absolutely will not settle for less.  Maintanence has get to be determined but I'm not willing to pass on maintenance.

You can't tell the other side, "We don't want to litigate over the pre-nup" or it will be taken as surrender - the only sure way to avoid litigation is to give them what they want.

But if you litigate over it, the lawyers will win and both parties will lose.  You need to make it clear to your lawyer that you are not going to pay her to to litigate so she better work with you to get a good settlement.

Is there a worksheet for maintenance?  Or can you find one online - maybe not official in your state but something that is practical to use?  I found that putting the math in front of the other side worked well - it took the discussion from hand-waving to specific numbers and led to a quicker, easier settlement.