Standing up to the BPD abuser

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I used to say that I went through three phases of abuse in my BPD r/s:

1.  In stage one, I was a doormat for my BPDex and her rages;

2.  In stage two, I fought fire with fire and created an even bigger fire; and

3.  In stage three, I put up boundaries, refused to engage and practiced detachment.

Stage three, however, led to an odd sort of marriage in which I no longer trusted her with my emotions and declined to share feelings, for fear they would be used against me.  By the time we divorced, we were just beating a dead horse . . .



The bottom line is that no one should have to put up with abuse and we all deserve happiness.  If that means the end of a BPD r/s, so be it.

Basically a relationship in Stage 3 is all one can ever hope to have with a PD, and that's not much of a r/s if one can even call it that.

Even if he now promises and follows through with therapy? It's too late for me to want to try.

[DragoN]

I used to say that I went through three phases of abuse in my BPD r/s:

1.  In stage one, I was a doormat for my BPDex and her rages;

2.  In stage two, I fought fire with fire and created an even bigger fire; and

3.  In stage three, I put up boundaries, refused to engage and practiced detachment.

Stage three, however, led to an odd sort of marriage in which I no longer trusted her with my emotions and declined to share feelings, for fear they would be used against me.  By the time we divorced, we were just beating a dead horse . . .



The bottom line is that no one should have to put up with abuse and we all deserve happiness.  If that means the end of a BPD r/s, so be it.

Basically a relationship in Stage 3 is all one can ever hope to have with a PD, and that's not much of a r/s if one can even call it that.

Even if he now promises and follows through with therapy? It's too late for me to want to try.

[eyvindr]

Sabratha --

Basically a relationship in Stage 3 is all one can ever hope to have with a PD, and that's not much of a r/s if one can even call it that.

Even if he now promises and follows through with therapy? It's too late for me to want to try.

That's where I end up. Not that it's too late, in my case -- in fact, that's part of the primary problem with my r-ship -- my ex led me to believe that it could have gone on indefinitely, so long as I continued to accept her miserable behavior. I've simply accepted that it's not the dynamic I want to live with in my primary relationship. I admire the folks on these boards who have decided to stay and make things work -- though, in many cases, they are married, and have children, and many years invested in those r-ships. In my case, we knew each other for 2 yrs -- weren't living together, weren't married, no kids, no joint property.

I want my SO to truly be a partner, an equal -- someone I can rely on, and who I am happy to have rely on me, because the entire r-ship is reciprocal -- what is felt is felt mutually, and what is given is not only given and returned freely, and without expectations.

Those r-ships exist, and I want one of them. Not this high-maintenance, low-return, constant work-in-progress kind of thing. I'm over it.

[hopealways]

Sabratha --

Basically a relationship in Stage 3 is all one can ever hope to have with a PD, and that's not much of a r/s if one can even call it that.

Even if he now promises and follows through with therapy? It's too late for me to want to try.

That's where I end up. Not that it's too late, in my case -- in fact, that's part of the primary problem with my r-ship -- my ex led me to believe that it could have gone on indefinitely, so long as I continued to accept her miserable behavior. I've simply accepted that it's not the dynamic I want to live with in my primary relationship. I admire the folks on these boards who have decided to stay and make things work -- though, in many cases, they are married, and have children, and many years invested in those r-ships. In my case, we knew each other for 2 yrs -- weren't living together, weren't married, no kids, no joint property.

I want my SO to truly be a partner, an equal -- someone I can rely on, and who I am happy to have rely on me, because the entire r-ship is reciprocal -- what is felt is felt mutually, and what is given is not only given and returned freely, and without expectations.

Those r-ships exist, and I want one of them. Not this high-maintenance, low-return, constant work-in-progress kind of thing. I'm over it.

Very well said, you deserve nothing less, and you will find this. A relationship for a BPD is merely a transaction. They are selfish and look at you as a source of supply to feed their needs.  That is not a true adult normal relationship. What you describe, want, and deserve, IS.

[Take2]

The longer our r-ship went on, the more frequently I'd experience, during arguments, my ex accusing me of doing exactly what she was doing -- often even using the same language I'd used when attempting to describe how her behavior was affecting me. Very bizarre thing to experience -- I believe it's called projective identification.

More and more, I'm beginning to think I understand that, when they split us, it's because their conscious mind has finally received the message we've sent -- that either we will leave them if they don't begin taking responsibility for their actions, or that we have left them already -- which triggers their abandonment fears. Which are too overwhelming for them, which triggers the BPD and the textbook response of rage and attack. It's like they can't cope with accepting that their behavior drove away the very thing they valued the most, so, in order to preserve their fragile self-identity, they have to create an "anti-us" which is bad, evil, hate-worthy -- in short, they have to rationalize why they wouldn't want to love the person who left them, in order to avoid accepting accountability for their role in driving us away. Make sense?

One wonders, if they'd actually just let themselves experience those fears one time, could they realize that they are actually survivable and manageable?

This totally makes sense and is what I experience over and over... .despite the r/s having ended some time ago... .  (we work together so NC is extremely difficult).  But I cannot tell you how many times I have described to him what I experienced or felt from his rages and attacks only to have him come  back and accuse me of everything I had told him he did... .   it really is truly bizarre... .  standing up to the abuse, yep, I do it often... .which is likely why I'm still on the horrible ride... .   yesterday's threat crossed a line (again).  Done.  Good luck to you.  You do deserve a happy, healthy r/s... .!

[goldylamont]

just started reading this thread and it really hits home to how i've felt. i would say that in my r/s i would stand up for myself much of the time, and other times i'd just avoid things so that i wouldn't have to deal with conflict.

i feel good about how i handled most things though... .i guess so far i feel lucky b/c i never felt that i had to "forgive myself" for much in the r/s. well, i did say some nasty things to her during the last few months, but honestly i wouldn't take them back. she fully deserved it, or rather i could say it was what she wanted--which is the reason i wouldn't do that ever again.

i can see now that i was just fooled into playing her game. i did a lot of thinking and thought "maybe i have some anger issues"--hah, now i know that's not the case. it wasn't my anger that was an issue it was my ignorance that she had a mental disorder and wouldn't stop abusing me emotionally until she got a reaction out of me. and i learned that it was the reaction that she wanted out of me. she *craves* abuse, she loves it, wants to bathe in it. and if i fired back it was so perfect for her. and if i didn't fire back i was devalued and taunted to try and make me strike. i'm so glad i figured this out b/c she could have kept using me if i hadn't wisened up... .but still i got played a few times .

i think "standing up to your BPDSO" could be restated as "she/he is about to either rage, lie and manipulate, or start having sex with someone else very very soon (if all of the above wasn't happening already)"   

teehee  i have a saying that "Truth is like Kryptonite to a BPD". or, perhaps "The light of Truth for a BPDSO is like Sunlight on a Vampire". They don't like it when you cut off their supply of fresh blood. Because at this point, that's all you are to them.

[fromheeltoheal]

The longer our r-ship went on, the more frequently I'd experience, during arguments, my ex accusing me of doing exactly what she was doing -- often even using the same language I'd used when attempting to describe how her behavior was affecting me. Very bizarre thing to experience -- I believe it's called projective identification.

But I cannot tell you how many times I have described to him what I experienced or felt from his rages and attacks only to have him come  back and accuse me of everything I had told him he did... .  it really is truly bizarre... . 

This is very interesting to me.  The same happened with us, I found it bizarre at the time, and your comments confirm it for me.  

My take is during the idealization phase a BPD will mirror the good they see in us, which is extremely attractive to us since they give us back what we like about ourselves, we fall in love with ourselves.  This is a must for the BPD because they must attach to feel whole, so they get very good at it.

Then when the fantasy wanes and we show up as less than perfect, go figure, the BPD continues to mirror, but by now everything must be our fault or their head will explode, so what gets mirrored is the bad they see in us, or just whatever they see in us, since they have an incomplete self that is incapable of standing toe to toe with an 'other', and they can only give back what they get in an attempt to create the illusion of autonomy.  So it sounds exactly like it did coming out of our mouths, even with the same words.  Bizarre.

These understandings have really helped me detach, and to see what I was attached to in the first place, hard to get my head around since I've been a self-directed self forever, had to be given my background.  Understanding the workings of a serious mental illness was at first very depressing, but ultimately freeing, and now I wish the best for her, she's got a tough climb.

[eyvindr]

fromheeltoheal --

It's always encouraging when I read posts like yours:

These understandings have really helped me detach, and to see what I was attached to in the first place, hard to get my head around since I've been a self-directed self forever, had to be given my background.  Understanding the workings of a serious mental illness was at first very depressing, but ultimately freeing, and now I wish the best for her, she's got a tough climb.

One of the best things about these boards, imo, is that, through sharing our experiences with others, we are able to guide each other to a point of compassion. Because it is, as you say, a tough climb for them. For us, too -- but their's is more challenging, given the handicap of their illness. Take care.

Goldy --

teehee  i have a saying that "Truth is like Kryptonite to a BPD". or, perhaps "The light of Truth for a BPDSO is like Sunlight on a Vampire". They don't like it when you cut off their supply of fresh blood. Because at this point, that's all you are to them.

When I was going through my divorce many years ago, one of the things I used to think about was how the truth kind of existed in its own light, always maintaining its integrity, regardless of everything going on around it. My ex wife was pathological liar (likely uBPD), and I never understood it -- she would lie about things that weren't even worth lying about. All of it confused me because, eventually, the truth does show up at the door, and when it does, it doesn't care what time it is, who's there, or how disruptive it will be. So why bother to lie in the first place?

[DragoN]

Eyvinder

That's where I end up. Not that it's too late, in my case -- in fact, that's part of the primary problem with my r-ship -- my ex led me to believe that it could have gone on indefinitely, so long as I continued to accept her miserable behavior. I've simply accepted that it's not the dynamic I want to live with in my primary relationship. I admire the folks on these boards who have decided to stay and make things work -- though, in many cases, they are married, and have children, and many years invested in those r-ships. In my case, we knew each other for 2 yrs -- weren't living together, weren't married, no kids, no joint property.



I want my SO to truly be a partner, an equal -- someone I can rely on, and who I am happy to have rely on me, because the entire r-ship is reciprocal -- what is felt is felt mutually, and what is given is not only given and returned freely, and without expectations.

Those r-ships exist, and I want one of them. Not this high-maintenance, low-return, constant work-in-progress kind of thing. I'm over it.

Married and part time together LDR since the beginning.

To the BPD, you have a use, a function a role... .you are the feeding ground.

And:

When I was going through my divorce many years ago, one of the things I used to think about was how the truth kind of existed in its own light, always maintaining its integrity, regardless of everything going on around it. My ex wife was pathological liar (likely uBPD), and I never understood it -- she would lie about things that weren't even worth lying about. All of it confused me because, eventually, the truth does show up at the door, and when it does, it doesn't care what time it is, who's there, or how disruptive it will be. So why bother to lie in the first place?

Because... .if we believe the lies and they can still mirror us without projecting their own actions onto us long enough, we may be so well trauma bonded and cognitively dissonant that we might even think it's a relationship? I really don't know, but I don't want to waste the rest of my life on this impossible project that refuses to acknowledge any responsibility in even the tiniest minutiae. I am not perfect, but my lack of perfection doesn't give another the right to abuse me either.

I think the ability to love was smashed out of me and the capacity to trust likewise. Guilty till proven otherwise, never know where another PD may be hiding under a mask of sweetness and light. Call me jaded, but after the horse hockey I've been through? Once burned , twice shy.

[Lucky Jim]

Those [healthy] r-ships exist, and I want one of them. Not this high-maintenance, low-return, constant work-in-progress kind of thing. I'm over it.

I like how you put that, eyvindr.  You've come to a good vantage point without going through a hellish marriage, as many of us [read: me] have done.  You hear a lot of cliches about marriage -- e.g., that it's hard work, that the honeymoon doesn't last, that no one is perfect, etc. -- yet none of these sayings even begins to touch on the complexities and challenges of a BPD r/s, in my view.

Lucky Jim

[hopealways]

Those [healthy] r-ships exist, and I want one of them. Not this high-maintenance, low-return, constant work-in-progress kind of thing. I'm over it.

I like how you put that, eyvindr.  You've come to a good vantage point without going through a hellish marriage, as many of us [read: me] have done.  You hear a lot of cliches about marriage -- e.g., that it's hard work, that the honeymoon doesn't last, that no one is perfect, etc. -- yet none of these sayings even begins to touch on the complexities and challenges of a BPD r/s, in my view.

Lucky Jim

Agreed, in fact the more I read about Cluster B types the more I realize that many failed marriages are a result of one partner being a Cluster B and the dysfunctionality that inevitably flows from it.  Those that educate themselves about this disorder will at least understand why there is dysfunction while others will keep banging their heads, blaming themselves, and running in circles.

[DragoN]

You hear a lot of cliches about marriage -- e.g., that it's hard work, that the honeymoon doesn't last, that no one is perfect, etc. -- yet none of these sayings even begins to touch on the complexities and challenges of a BPD r/s, in my view.

No problem to work at a relationship, but BPD? Shoot me.

Agreed, in fact the more I read about Cluster B types the more I realize that many failed marriages are a result of one partner being a Cluster B and the dysfunctionality that inevitably flows from it.  Those that educate themselves about this disorder will at least understand why there is dysfunction while others will keep banging their heads, blaming themselves, and running in circles.

The silver lining, is one is better at reading and catching odd behaviors.

[eyvindr]

Sabratha --

One of the things that kept me in the "FOG" was that nagging self-doubt -- "if I truly love her, and I do, then maybe she's right... .maybe I should be willing to keep working on the r-ship with her, if I truly love her... ."

For the longest time, I kept forgetting that, yes -- that's exactly what you should do, and it truly can and does work -- IF you're jointly working on r-ship issues with a partner who doesn't have a personality disorder. As I've said before, I have nothing but admiration for partners who choose to stick with their BPDs -- and I may have stuck with mine, too, had we spent a significant portion of our lives together already, and had I not only thought, but see her taking significant action to address her illness. I didn't.

And you hit the nail on the head here, in my case:

Agreed, in fact the more I read about Cluster B types the more I realize that many failed marriages are a result of one partner being a Cluster B and the dysfunctionality that inevitably flows from it.  Those that educate themselves about this disorder will at least understand why there is dysfunction while others will keep banging their heads, blaming themselves, and running in circles.

The silver lining, is one is better at reading and catching odd behaviors.

My first BPD r-ship was with my ex-wife. The flags were there for me to see from nearly the first time we met -- the soulmate-level connection, the mirroring, the over-the-top elation (as well as the divorce, the 3-yr-old child livnig w/ her ex hubby 500 miles away, the spotty employment history, the fondness for alcohol... .) -- but I was naive, and I thought she'd grow up. So we got married. Guess what?... .

The next woman I dated seriously after my divorce -- hard to tell, but I think she was bipolar, as opposed to BPD. Probably some PTSD stuff there, too, and definitely anxiety issues. I loved her more than I'd ever loved anyone before -- but I wouldn't agree to let her move in.

The next serious r-ship I had -- another bipolar person. She did move in, and we eventually got engaged -- but I didn't marry her. And my recent break-up with my ex -- no cohabitation, no engagement, and no marriage.

So, I get some solace in knowing that at least I'm not repeating my mistakes, if not totally learning from them.

[goldylamont]

I think the ability to love was smashed out of me and the capacity to trust likewise. Guilty till proven otherwise, never know where another PD may be hiding under a mask of sweetness and light. Call me jaded, but after the horse hockey I've been through? Once burned , twice shy.

Sabratha, Don't let the terrorists win!   I hope and believe one day that you can fully reintegrate your capacity to trust. I think it's normal to be jaded, and that it's good to be cautious. Give yourself some time and let trust seep back in, the world needs more love! (sorry for the cliche, but i do think this is true)

my exBPD happened to be a Scorpio--i'm not really big into astrology btw, but this gave me the imagery of her injecting me with emotional poison whenever she felt angered or threatened. i feel that being in an abusive r/s, we to some degree take on the bad issues of the disordered person. for you personally, were you un-trusting before your r/s with pwBPD?

for me, emotions, feelings, both good and bad spread kind of like an epidemic. it can be good or bad. like if someone yawns and you want to yawn. someone laughs and makes you laugh. someone is incapable of trust or true loving and leaves you feeling the same.

i always try to remind myself that this person is disordered. and that most people are not, not to that degree at least. and also i realize that in order for me to keep my heart open that i have to accept that it will be hurt. so, i have to depend on my own strength and experience to remain open and loving, which is how i would like to be. ya know, classic "peaceful warrior" stuff  it's something i identify with though. hang in there i hope some of this helps!

[Turkish]

Has anyone stood up to a BPD abuser?  I finally did, and that is when we broke up for good. I told her everything on my mind. How she was abusive, mean, cruel, selfish... .It has been 3 weeks.

I told her again and again that she was emotionally abusive (like her father was physically with them). She never took it seriously. The last email we had before I found out she was continuing to lie to me (and lied to me about that), was when she asked me to send her some stuff on co-dependency. Then she sent an email back that a strong woman of character needs a strong man of character (in this I "failed". I only failed in pointing out that her actions (the affair) proved that she was NOT a woman of character. So yes, I didn't respond, so maybe I didn't stand up to it. No more conversations like that (my boundary), and no more hugging, even if she wants to (another boundary, which I will only violate on the day she moves out of the house and I hug her goodbye for ever (preparing a very short speech to whisper into her ear), assuming that will go ok, but there will be witnesses, so perhaps it will... .). She asked me this weekend if I had another session with Dr. hit. I didn't reply. Of course, I am the one who needs help, right? Yes, but not for me, but to vent the stories on him and to help myself after her. -Turkish

[eyvindr]

Goldy --

WOW -- mine, too! --

my exBPD happened to be a Scorpio--i'm not really big into astrology btw, but this gave me the imagery of her injecting me with emotional poison whenever she felt angered or threatened.

Not big into it myself, either, but my ex touted herself as an astrologer.

Ironically, when we were getting to know each other, one of the first things she did was to compared our charts (I'm a double Aqu, I guess), and it said we were an unlikely match, one that could lead to the release of "great transformative energy" -- whether that energy would be positive or negative, was left to the interpreter to determine. I should have listened!

And my ex always promised me that, no matter what happened between us (foreshadowing on her part... .?) she promised that she'd never use her "stinger" on me.

Currently going through my second round of being split bad, and I can't imagine what she considers her "stinger" to be, if this isn't it. Fortunately, during round one, I built up some pretty resilient antibodies to the poison.

i always try to remind myself that this person is disordered. and that most people are not, not to that degree at least. and also i realize that in order for me to keep my heart open that i have to accept that it will be hurt. so, i have to depend on my own strength and experience to remain open and loving, which is how i would like to be. ya know, classic "peaceful warrior" stuff  it's something i identify with though. hang in there i hope some of this helps!

Good thoughts. Thank you for sharing.

e.

[saw_tooth]

¹ One wonders, if they'd actually just let themselves experience those fears one time, could they realize that they are actually survivable and manageable?

They can,with therapy and get better too if they accept the fact that they are disordered and are willing to work toward getting better.Unfortunately,most don't.

[hopealways]

I started this post because I could not find ANY posts about victims standing up to the BPD abuser. It is so interesting to me that it has received more reviews than other posts and I am proud of everyone who read this for a simple reason: reading about standing up to your abuser means you have the desire to do so.  Standing up means that we acknowledge their abuse is wrong, that we value ourselves more than that, and we are willing to deal with the pain of a breakup if it will allow us to grow and get our dignity, confidence, and self-esteem back.  For those who have not stood up to their abuser, it may be time that you did.  I did - it was painful because it meant she had finally lost me (as her prey) but every day I get stronger and regain more of who I was.  I see relationships way differently now. Am I jaded? No.  But I see that when relationships work it is more than just a difference in opinions: sometimes people are just nuts.

[Take2]

 

[eeyore]

I used to be quiet and just take it. Not anymore. I spent the last year in therapy and I have gotten so strong and confident. I have dealt with my demons and I will no longer allow anyone to push me around. My bPD and I still talk and we are trying to work it out. When she gets in a mood and starts blaming me for everything and stating it's my fault this or that happened I have no problem telling her to grow up and take responsibility for her own actions. She hates it and gets more angry. My response is grow up and deal with your problems and quit blaming others. She goes off and is angry for a while but she has learned that I will not back down or.deal with that crap anymore or be blamed for her problems. She goes off and dwells on it and deals.with it.  I refuse to be anyone's punching bag again. We have reached an understanding that we agree to.disagree. Who knows if it will last but I will never be put down and belittled again by anyone.

Ditto, I will never be put down and belittled again... .not by Anyone.   

[eeyore]

So, I get some solace in knowing that at least I'm not repeating my mistakes, if not totally learning from them.

We all are learning.  Good job.

[DragoN]

Eyvinder

One of the things that kept me in the "FOG" was that nagging self-doubt -- "if I truly love her, and I do, then maybe she's right... .maybe I should be willing to keep working on the r-ship with her, if I truly love her... ."

For the longest time, I kept forgetting that, yes -- that's exactly what you should do, and it truly can and does work -- IF you're jointly working on r-ship issues with a partner who doesn't have a personality disorder. As I've said before, I have nothing but admiration for partners who choose to stick with their BPDs -- and I may have stuck with mine, too, had we spent a significant portion of our lives together already, and had I not only thought, but see her taking significant action to address her illness. I didn't.

Similar, but put 10 years into it in marriage. Others have put in 20 and 30 years.

People have good days and bad days... .but not like this BPD style chaos. It is unbelievable what can set off my SO. Turned myself inside out and backwards in the early years, but now? I do next to nothing on the r/s because I have no more fire power for it. It's not a healthy r/s in any form.

Goldylamont

Sabratha, Don't let the terrorists win!  Empathy I hope and believe one day that you can fully reintegrate your capacity to trust. I think it's normal to be jaded, and that it's good to be cautious. Give yourself some time and let trust seep back in, the world needs more love! (sorry for the cliche, but i do think this is true)

I know you are right, and I would like to think so, and I know the thoughts on the "Peaceful Warrior" most times I can maintain a positive outlook. Still have a few months left before the divorce is final and the SO being around me is not a joy.

my exBPD happened to be a Scorpio--i'm not really big into astrology btw, but this gave me the imagery of her injecting me with emotional poison whenever she felt angered or threatened. i feel that being in an abusive r/s, we to some degree take on the bad issues of the disordered person. for you personally, were you un-trusting before your r/s with pwBPD?

This^^^ is what I am working on cleaning out of my system. I was cautious but not distrusting. Had been cheated on by one BF and ended the r/s as that is a boundary for me. Now? A little jaded.

Thank you for the positive post and outlook.

Hopealways

I started this post because I could not find ANY posts about victims standing up to the BPD abuser. It is so interesting to me that it has received more reviews than other posts and I am proud of everyone who read this for a simple reason: reading about standing up to your abuser means you have the desire to do so.  Standing up means that we acknowledge their abuse is wrong, that we value ourselves more than that, and we are willing to deal with the pain of a breakup if it will allow us to grow and get our dignity, confidence, and self-esteem back.  For those who have not stood up to their abuser, it may be time that you did.  I did - it was painful because it meant she had finally lost me (as her prey) but every day I get stronger and regain more of who I was.  I see relationships way differently now. Am I jaded? No.  But I see that when relationships work it is more than just a difference in opinions: sometimes people are just nuts.

Standing up to your abuser is a dangerous ploy. But it does do one thing, it doesn't allow them to crush your spirit.

Willtimeheal

I used to be quiet and just take it. Not anymore. I spent the last year in therapy and I have gotten so strong and confident. I have dealt with my demons and I will no longer allow anyone to push me around. My bPD and I still talk and we are trying to work it out. When she gets in a mood and starts blaming me for everything and stating it's my fault this or that happened I have no problem telling her to grow up and take responsibility for her own actions. She hates it and gets more angry. My response is grow up and deal with your problems and quit blaming others. She goes off and is angry for a while but she has learned that I will not back down or.deal with that crap anymore or be blamed for her problems. She goes off and dwells on it and deals.with it.  I refuse to be anyone's punching bag again. We have reached an understanding that we agree to.disagree. Who knows if it will last but I will never be put down and belittled again by anyone.

Same here and nor will I allow anyone to tell me what to think, how to think it,  nor what I feel and when I am allowed to feel it.