witch + jack-in-the box = witch in the box

[doubleAries]

Wow, what a weird day.  

I haven't had contact with my alleged mother in 22 years. My brother has limited contact with her. Yesterday he forwarded an email thread between him and mommy dearest. It really threw me for a loop. But I think I actually did pretty well. At first, right after I read it, I flipped out. I was absolutely furious. I decided to find her phone number online so I could tear her a new one. But I don't know what state she lives in. I was so angry my hands were trembling.

But I thought about it a little, and realized I don't have to defend myself. I don't have to "set the record straight". I don't have to "do something" about it. That not doing something about it doesn't mean I'm being a doormat or letting her "get away with" anything. I realized that "doing something about it" was simply a way to alleviate my feelings toward her--and that maybe what I really needed to do was just experience the feelings themselves. So I sat there extremely hurt and angry for a while. Then I went and ran a bubble bath with some scented Epsom salts, soaked, and ate a mini chocolate silk pie. Then I went about my regular routine. I then sent my brother an email and thanked him for forwarding the thread, so I could have the opportunity to face my feelings about my mother without having to deal with her directly. And I meant it. This is a pretty new reaction for me--and it feels pretty good.

Not saying "I feel good"--I don't. I can't believe the horrible lies my own mother told my brother about me and it hurts and horrifies me. But it feels better to just feel that instead of the frustration of wanting to "do something about it".

I have excerpted here (below) some of that thread. I am not at all surprised at the things she said (that's why we have NC) but I am deeply hurt. Maybe not just about the lies, contortions and projections (not to mention how she's gaslighting my brother with this vile filth) in this particular missive, but for my entire childhood. That may sound dramatic, but not in context: my mother PERFECTLY fits the diagnostic description for Sadistic Personality Disorder--which unfortunately is no longer included in the DSM (so BPD it is, though it really doesn't fit as well).

Context: my brother is trying to get some of the family photos from mom.

Not much in the way of pictures of you guys as youngsters.  (DoubleAries) sneaked off with a lot of those. If she would have just asked  we could have made copies and been able to share. Some were missing out of the big photo album of the family. A lot were just loose pics I kept in the desk drawer until I could put them in the big family album. They just kept disappearing, but I didn't notice until later. then I was scratching my noggin wondering where they went & saw some at her house when I went to pick up (my son) one time.

(pure B.S. I don’t have ANY family photos and would like some myself)

 

(from brother to her…)

She sent me something a while back ... said (my father) and Grampa (my stepdads stepdad) had molested her when she was young?

(her response…)

She is lying. She said (my father), her own dad, molested her. another lie. He would never have done that and I told him so he could at least defend himself. He went straight to her and first she denied it, then she tried to tell him he really did that and finally she admitted she lied.

(This really hurt. My father DID molest me, but the rest of her story here is completely made up)

(from brother, about a photo…)

who is "heavy guy" with beard?

(her response…)

That is (my NPD ex)- the bio father of (my son)

He actually was a nice guy

He played guitar- (DoubleAries) met him in the bar in (town). She drove him away with her jealousy

(DoubleAries) has some major mental problems. Some stupid welfare worker in (a town) tried to "help" her by telling her she had repressed memories and that mostly is where she came up with all this molesting crap. She has a very hard time to distinguish between truth and dreams or tales she tells.

(This “nice guy”—who she hated at the time we were together 30 years ago—ran over me with one of his other girlfriends car and hospitalized me for almost 3 weeks. Before that, he stole every dime I had when he left me because I was pregnant and wouldn’t get an abortion. There was no welfare worker, and the memories were never repressed)

(from brother…)

I remember grampa (my stepdads stepdad) bought her a bike.

(response from the witch…)

Remember the black man who was a Major in ROTC? He had her in ROTC and she liked to drove him nuts... (this was one of my teachers who really liked me in high school--and I have replaced the N word with "black man"

Grampa (stepdads stepdad) used to carry her around when she was little - he felt sorry for her because she was so surly and mean - I think he could relate to her because he was a nut case also. She was never out of my sight when (stepdads stepdad) was around her. He never bought (DoubleAries) a bike but he did give her a glass piggy bank with about $25 in coins in it for her 5th birthday. That's the one that (stepdad) sneaked off with and hid in our bedroom closet on hit street and was taking the money out of for himself.

I have no reason to lie about any of this stuff and I have one hell of a memory for all of it.

(Beware the unsolicited declarations of “I’m not lying... .”)

(from brother…)

I just don't recall half the stuff she says happened ... .was I that un attentive?

(witch’s response…)

No (brother)-- you have a good memory also and the reason you don't remember is because it only happened in (DoubleAries) mind.  I used to cry because what do you do with a kid with a "broken head"? a broken arm you can fix but a broken head?

I did not trust (stepdads stepdad) or (DoubleAries) so I never let her get out of my sight when we were around him. And (stepdads mother) was a boozing whore and not very intelligent to boot.

Hopefully there's some pictures you would like to have- like I said before- your sister made off with many. It's a shame she remembers things that never happened because that's why she hates me so much- for things she believes to be true that never even happened. Such a waste... .

As you can imagine, I'm pretty hurt and very angry. My brother was kind of poking at her, trying to see what she'd say, and certainly didn't let her know he'd be sending any of this to me. Not that we planned it out--he was just shocked by what she said and decided I should see it. he's still in this place where he believes he can confront her and get straight answers. I gave that up a long time ago.

I have a long ways to go with how I feel about my mother. But I'm getting there. And I'm not the one with a diagnosis.

I'm REALLY, REALLY glad to be a grown up now, instead of a little kid at her mercy. And I'm grateful that I now have the luxury of sorting out my own thoughts, feelings, and beliefs, instead of just reacting to her soap opera/drama/rage du jour.  

[Grey Kitty]

Yikes. I definitely see why you are NC. First because she sure sounds toxic. Second because you still have some real feelings to find and process over your childhood.

I remember you mentioning your self-apathy a while back... .I'm guessing that hearing this sort of crap is taking you back to similar events that happened long ago. I'm hoping that the feelings you go through reading this are a start toward more healing.

I'll just finish by saying I think you are doing it right in how you handled this.

  GK

[Rose Tiger]

"I'm REALLY, REALLY glad to be a grown up now, instead of a little kid at her mercy. And I'm grateful that I now have the luxury of sorting out my own thoughts, feelings, and beliefs, instead of just reacting to her soap opera/drama/rage du jour."

Me, too, I'm so glad you are away from her and hopefully far!   I'm so sorry your birth mom is so sick and so toxic.  I love that you are taking good care of yourself and treating yourself gently.

[doubleAries]

Thanks, guys. A lot. 

Have had a couple more days to do some reflection here. And have a counseling session tonight (have a feeling it's going to be a long one!)

It occurs to me that my mom may have hoped my brother would relay to me what she said. She's never been very good at the waif thing (inducing guilt), but she is master of the coliseum with toxic bile (this woman is in her 70's! Imagine what she was like in her prime! I was there--I don't have to imagine, I know). My brother thinks he's "getting to the bottom" of things, and does not recognize he's getting sucked in. He's not a drama addict like she is, but he gets sucked in pretty easy. Over the years I've been very careful to not put him in the middle, but now he's doing it himself.

Point is, it just about worked. I know there is no reasoning with her and I wasn't going to even try that. I was going to call her and vent all my anger and bitterness on her. Just like she does to others.

People with these kind of serious personality disorders (especially the witch types) don't want your pathetic little sympathy. They don't want your puny little empathy. They want to BATTLE. There are one of two outcomes for them:

(1) you sit there and take it so they get to spew all their hatred and fury for free on a person, who by their silence, agrees she is correct in her rageful disgust (at least in their minds), or

(2) you fight back/defend yourself and then they become justified in escalating the battle (at least in their own minds).

My brother still thinks, like I did back in the day, that he can be around this kind of behavior and because he can numb himself, believes he is therefore not impacted by it. Not even recognizing that numbing yourself IS one of the impacts. Numbing oneself is a defense mechanism. Sure, you still see that she's absolutely nuts, but it's "not that bad". Or it's "just how she is". In short, it is acceptable.

This is exactly the validation she seeks. If others around her act the same way she does, then she's normal. So she spends an inordinate amount of time baiting people into rage. That's why I went NC.

It's interesting that she now says I am lying about being molested by my father and my stepdad's stepdad. At the time I told her, she didn't question whether it was true or not. She just called me a whore. I guess that's why in one part of that above drivel she says she didn't trust grandpa creep OR me (I was 3 and 4 years old when he was molesting me) even though I've now been transformed into a LIAR about the whole thing.

There is still some part of me that really, really wants to defend myself. That's the part I'm looking at. Also, I went back through the diatribe in it's entirety to find where I went from mildly annoyed and rolling my eyes at her pack of lies, to hand trembling anger. It was when it moved from lies to projection. Can't say I yet understand why that bothers me so much, why I take that so personal. But that's what I'll be working on through this. I'm certainly open to any ideas others may have from that outside point of view.

I know some part of it is I've always been really scared that people would believe her. 2 reasons:

(1) it's not like delusional talk--":)oubleAries took a ride on a spaceship and can now insert thoughts into others heads"--it sounds believable. It sounds like a concerned mother (crying over her child with the broken head  ).

(2) She's the crazy person she's accusing me of being (I'm the no-good child, after all--that's my designated role). And she never got into any kind of trouble or even confronted about the horrific abuse she heaped on us kids. But she has managed to get me into a LOT of trouble with false accusations. Once, many years ago, she called social services on me and told them she saw me punch my 2 year old son in face so hard he did a back flip in the air. Her emotional "acting" (it's not really acting--her emotions are the truth in her world, not facts) was convincing enough that I was arrested and my son put into a foster home while an investigation was conducted.

This was completely fabricated. Not a grain of truth which was twisted around--just flat out made up. It only took me a few days to get social services to do their actual job—point out that if I had punched him that hard, he’d have some kind of marks on him and he didn’t have any marks at all. I didn’t end up being charged and my son was returned, but only after months of interviews and interactions with social services so they could see for themselves I did not have an abusive relationship with my son. One of the social workers even came and told me later that she believed my mother was diabolical.

BUT nothing happened to her for doing this. In less than 2 minutes, she caused me months of hassle. Her attack was nearly effortless, and I spent massive amounts of effort clearing my name.

Anger is a mask for fear. And yes, I recognize that the anger I feel over her projection is a mask for the (legitimate) fear I feel about it. But I can’t afford that mask—on a personal level OR out in the world. I’ve always worried that NC isn’t enough—because it isn’t. She didn’t just disappear because I don’t talk to her. I am well aware of the damage this witch can cause with a single lie filled phone call. My children are grown—she can’t get to me through them anymore (and they won’t talk to her either, due to their own experiences with her). But she really IS pretty diabolical.

I spend a lot of time improving myself, but always there is the dull ache of anxiety about looking over my shoulder, waiting for her next move to suck me back into her witch vortex. It’s only going to get worse—my T has convinced me that my story needs to be told and is helping me write a book (working title “daughter of the witch”). He has several books out and will help me get it published. And then the crapola will REALLY hit the fan.

SIGH….

[Grey Kitty]

  Keep up the good work here--you are finding more answers for yourself than we're giving you!

There is one area where I completely walk in your shoes, and that is going from nearly zero to furious in a second over projection. When my wife was having an episode, and I clearly remember getting screaming furious when she started telling me what I was thinking. She was wrong and I was pissed over it.

I've come to better realize that that sort of thing isn't about the person being projected on, it is about the person doing the projecting, and like you said, you don't have to defend yourself from it. I don't think I'm as triggered by it now, but she's not doing it much so I haven't been tested recently.

(2) She's the crazy person she's accusing me of being (I'm the no-good child, after all--that's my designated role). And she never got into any kind of trouble or even confronted about the horrific abuse she heaped on us kids. But she has managed to get me into a LOT of trouble with false accusations.

Comparing the trouble she didn't get for what she did to you with the false accusations that did cause a mess for you isn't very useful for you... .

And I'd point out that you (and your children) going NC with her, and her still fuming about it is more of a consequence than she will acknowledge, but that doesn't mean it isn't real, or that it doesn't hurt either.

I spend a lot of time improving myself, but always there is the dull ache of anxiety about looking over my shoulder, waiting for her next move to suck me back into her witch vortex.

And perhaps the issue is more you looking over your shoulder than what she might actually do there?

 GK

[doubleAries]

GK,

"And perhaps the issue is more you looking over your shoulder than what she might actually do there?"

Only to some degree. The longer I won't talk to her, the more rage filled she gets. I've always been her #1 projection target, and it's probably not as "fun" when I don't respond. Who better to push your buttons than the person who installed them in the first place? But I'm not playing along with the script, and you know how pwPD's get about that.

She has never been one to silently seethe. The more angry she gets, the more likely she is to dream up the ultimate punishment. And NC is a particularly egregious insult. Especially since I've kept it. 22 years ago when I told her there wouldn't be any more contact (that's the 1 sentence summary of my 18 page letter to her), it was obvious she simply saw this as a new level in the battle, as a threat--which she relished.

So no, I'm not just looking over my shoulder because I'm paranoid. She continues to push the envelope, only now through 3rd parties instead of directly. She continues to drive wedges between me and other family members, and dream up stuff to scare the bejeezuz out of me.

A couple of years ago, I went to the post office and the counter lady asked me if my mom had contacted me--my stomach dropped to my knees and I mumbled "huh?" and she cheerfully explained that my mom [who lives out of state] came in and said she lost her address book and needed my address, so they gave it to her. I about crapped my pants. She didn't show up at my house, but she knew I'd find out about this, and probably gloated for a long time, knowing it would scare the crap out of me, and it did. 

I'm on a volunteer fire department, and this year she contacted my fire chief and tearfully told him she was my mother and though it pained her deeply, she needed to do the right thing, and needed to talk to him about my serious mental illness issues--before someone got hurt because of me. Fortunately, I'd already discussed that possibility with the chief, and he did what I asked him to do, and told her he was not allowed to speak with anyone not on the department about any department members unless the person in question was present either on a conference call or in person. She never called back. But I got the message loud and clear--the witch never forgets and the witch goes for the jugular. The witch destroys what you value or love.

See, the thing is, in the end it doesn't matter if, say for example, the chief believes her or not. It matters if he gets sick of the bizarre drama, and gets rid of me and what he sees as my "baggage" (ie: my crazy distraction of a mother who won't go away). And these kind of things have happened before.

In any case, after sitting there for a while in hand-trembling anger, I thought "I only want to 'do something about this' to alleviate my anger. What I really need to do is experience how I feel about this". So I sat there trembling in anger thinking "what a (crappy) mother she is". Hmmm... .that's a thought, not a feeling. OK, "what a hurt person I am" and then it came. I cried really hard for a couple of minutes. And it felt wretched, but better than the tension and frustration of "needing to do something about it". So I guess I'm making progress.

[Rose Tiger]

Tears are such a blessing!  That is so important to tie into the feelings, good work!  It's hard to get out of victim mode when someone is aggressively stalking you and has made your life hell at times.  I suppose focus on how you've overcome each and every obstacle she threw your way.  She didn't win in the end.  You persevered and got through it.  She is such a pitiful sad person, to get some joy out of hurting her daughter.  Really sick.

Your book that you are writing, this is the ultimate play high card.  To put your story into words.  You can fight for you and your well being.  It's justice.  I remember a book that I loved from my childhood.  It's called Little Witch.  It convinced me that my 'mother' was a witch that stole me from my 'real' mom.  It was very comforting for me at the time.  I still have that book.  You might enjoy it too.

www.amazon.com/Little-Witch-TX246-Elizabeth-Bennett/dp/B000J4W5H8/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1381323087&sr=1-3&keywords=little+witch+anna+elizabeth+bennett

There are other copies on Amazon that are cheaper, but this edition's illustrations are wonderful. 

[Grey Kitty]

DA,

I see two sides of this issue here:

1. Protecting yourself from the sort of malicious damage she has done before, and likely will continue attempting.

You are NC plus looking over your shoulder; Sounds like you figured this out ~22 years ago, and don't need to change much here

So no, I'm not just looking over my shoulder because I'm paranoid.

I hate to be flip, but a quote that comes to mind "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you!"

2. Your feelings/reactions here to this.

This is where it sounds like you are making real progress. As Rose Tiger said, Tears are a blessing.

My guess is that any progress you make here will be huge for you... .and probably won't change much if anything about what you do regarding the witch-in-the-box.

 Keep on looking for those feelings!

[Krudula]

Hi DoubleAries

Just read your posts. Not adding to the very good comments as I could not improve on those

I just wanted to draw your attention to a book I have recently read (I am a telephone counsellor for a helpline) This may be something you would like to read also. It is not specifically an book on BPD but easily could have been.

Sorry I don't have a ISBN or publisher name, but you could no doubt google it.

Secunda Victoria : When you and your mother can't be friends.

 Krudula

[Suzn]

In any case, after sitting there for a while in hand-trembling anger, I thought "I only want to 'do something about this' to alleviate my anger. What I really need to do is experience how I feel about this". So I sat there trembling in anger thinking "what a (crappy) mother she is". Hmmm... .that's a thought, not a feeling. OK, "what a hurt person I am" and then it came. I cried really hard for a couple of minutes. And it felt wretched, but better than the tension and frustration of "needing to do something about it". So I guess I'm making progress.

Yeah DA, this is progress. In fact, there are people that never reach this level of understanding and awareness. To be capable of thinking this clearly while notably furious and deeply hurt is huge, that's the only word that fits. Huge.

[doubleAries]

 

Rose Tiger thanks, I'll check that out. A big problem for me for a long time is exactly that "victim" thing. It is soo difficult to explain my mom to others--I don't really understand her myself, but after years of experience can reasonably predict her chess game. But to others, I sound paranoid and like I'm trying to exaggeratedly elicit sympathy. They don't believe that level of malevolence could exist in a mother, so I must have a few screws loose. Yet certain situations require I forewarn people about what I will predict her next move to be that involves triangulating them into her harassment of me. As a small child first exposed to fairy tales, I fantasized I was really the daughter of the king and queen and the wicked witch kidnapped me and that someday I would be rescued. Didn't quite work out like that... .

Grey Kitty yeah, not much will change in regards to how I deal with the witch-in-the-box. I guess that subject title sounds a little goofy, but sometimes that's exactly how it seems. Going along, playing a little song in my head "do to do to do do do do do... ." and all of a sudden the witch pops out of the box and scares the crap out of me, then cackles madly and retreats back into the box to plan her next POP. I guess it goes on all the time, but I don't know because I'm NC. In any case, my goal is to become the healthy person I was never taught to be, not change my mom, which isn't going to happen anyway, and is thusly simply a distraction from the true goal.

Santa Clara thanks, and welcome aboard! Yes, it amazing to discover we are not alone, isn't it? I remember my brother and I discussing--many, many times--that we would never in a million years be able to ever explain to anyone else what our lives were like. It was all so complicated, dramatic, and intertwined! For a long time, I did not want to know what my mom said, and I did not want my brothers to tell her anything about me. In many ways, I still feel like that. But I also knew--at least in the back of my mind--that no contact with her protected me to some degree from her direct maliciousness, but did NOT teach me anything at all about how to become the healthy person I wanted to be, how to deal with my feelings from the childhood that couldn't be erased, or how to develop boundaries she couldn't breach (psychologically at least). So I'm OK with my brother telling me what she said about me--I need to learn these things anyway, and if I can tackle the "source" of my issues, then the rest should be a snap  . This gave me the opportunity to confront some of those feelings, but in a very safe way, because I didn't have to deal directly with her at all. I'm not so sure at all at this point that if I did have to deal directly with her for some reason, I could do that without falling right back into the old pattern of defending myself--exactly the defensive position she's most comfortable with. So I get some "free" practice, if you will.  

Krudula thanks, I'll google it up! Always up for a good read!

Suzn Thanks. A lot. I've been grappling with this for a while now, in my counseling sessions. I think a really big thing that caused a   for me was FINALLY grasping this simple and obvious issue: why is it that I think I don't deserve goodness, happiness, love? I've been struggling and struggling with that. Well, it FINALLY hit me--I DO think I deserve goodness, happiness, and love. But I don't FEEL it. That's where the disconnect is. My thinking self is sometimes absolutely aghast at what my feeling self chooses to do. Once I finally grasped this, it was a lot easier to sort this situation out. It's an emotional situation. The emotions have to be allowed. They don't pre-empt the thinking parts, or substitute for them, but they have to be allowed. Otherwise they remain in the basement becoming more and more deformed. And the way to keep them in the basement is to focus on her, instead of myself. Yeah--external experience are real too. And it' OK to be outraged about the latest chapter in the ongoing saga--and to talk about it. But not to stay stuck there and not go on with the other half of the equation--it's impact on self.

[Suzn]

I get what you are saying. What you wrote about your thinking process during this event is a perfect example of reconnecting with your emotions, one has to start somewhere right? I also see what you mean by this being a safe way to do this. It reminds me a little of exposure therapy in a safe environment. It's mho that as you do this over time, even though these emotions feel wretched at times, allowing yourself to feel those not so good feeling emotions opens the door for the emotions that do FEEL good.

I remember a time in therapy when my therapist identified joy for me, things were going well at the time. I just remember thinking wow I've been really out of touch with my emotions and I had no idea how indepth that was. It was like I had been wearing blinders most of my life and they had been removed. It felt rather simplistic to hear the words "some emotions feel good and some don't" but there were never truer words that ran that deep.

[Breathing new air]

Wow. I have to say I cannot add anything but I will say thanks for the thread.

As far as thinking vs feeling. I too had to work on that so much. I have to make a conscious effort to do so. I used to say I didn't like emotions, at least mine. I could deal with anyone else and help them. I am a rescuer. But my own I struggled with. I think SUZN and doubleaires said it well. We are taught not it is not safe to feel and that trusting our own feelings instincts is wrong because things in our home are so distorted that that is the only option. Doubleairies, you really should be proud of yourself, what you are doing is hard and you are doing it.

[doubleAries]

 

I've been struggling with this for so long it's almost embarrassing how obvious and simple it actually is.

I thought I was pretty in touch with my emotions because I certainly felt angry and outraged at how I was treated! The secondary emotions just aren't quite the same though, are they?

In spite of being a bit drained, and frankly, a little down in the dumps by the emotional pain, I also feel greatly relieved. I find for myself that unexpressed/bottled up emotional pain converts to physical pain--mostly in my upper back and neck.

This is still difficult, and I have a lot of practicing to do (until it becomes, like other things, an automatic pattern). When I was a kid, my brothers and I all learned astutely that showing vulnerability, fear, hurt of any kind around mom sent her into a sadistic frenzy. We became experts and being numb. In fact, had a LOT of practice at it. A coping method that is no longer serving me well, but has become automatic.

A couple days after reading the things she said, it occurred to me that she wanted me to either see or hear her words. It wasn't just behind my back--she wanted my brother to either send it to me or tell me what it said. I immediately dismissed this as self-important paranoia. Then when I went to my T session Tuesday evening, he said "as soon as I started reading this, it was obvious to me that these words were intended to reach your ears, for the purpose of hurting you and manipulating your brother into being a part of that."   !

I have a lot of things to feel joy about right now. Real true joy. I really want to experience that, without the nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I don't really deserve it. I'm getting there a little bit too. I got tired of feeling like my gorgeous beautiful new home wasn't really mine, that the people who really own it will come home any time now and send me on my way (and/or "how the heck am I going to afford this? What a major mistake!" so I decided to do some things to make it MINE. I painted the boring brown garage doors red (to match the roof), and while I was at it, sprayed a light coat of red glitter over them. It looks FABULOUS! I planted some hyacinths and daffodils. Put up a bunch of bird and squirrel feeders. Bought some zebra print sheets. On my way to T, the light was just right and I sat there for a minute looking at my fabulous looking garage doors, and just marveled at how cool it looks. No guilt.

There is hope to escape the legacy! 

[Suzn]

That does sound Fabulous! Owning your own home is such a grounding experience. And taking moments to admire your work, that's pretty awesome. Very happy for you, a few tears of joy, the good kind. 

[maxen]

hi doubleAries. thank you for taking the time to post your story and i've read it with fascinated horror. i'm really sorry for your situation and i know (i think) what kind of strength it takes to deal with that, because my mother has paranoia. paranoia isn't about aliens putting chips in you neck, it's the relentless need to find a problem where no problem exists, and to assert that the problem is being created to attack the paranoid one. i have been in on some of these conspiracies, i'm told, and woe betide me if i defend myself. and i too have had to come to the point of not answering. i was well up in my 30s before i decided to tell my mother nothing, and older than that when i reduced contact to an absolute minimum.

your last post above was positive and i hope things keep getting better for you.

[doubleAries]

Thanks, maxen!

Yeah, this is just a little peak in the box the witch lives in, and that I grew up in. The only time this woman shows love is when it's about creating problems. She absolutely thrives on it. And they aren't usually small problems either, but great big horrifying ones.

The big struggle for me has been mostly about second guessing myself. Constantly. It drives me batty. My mom threw me out of the house at 15 years old, and in all that time (15 years is a long time to be in a concentration camp, or on the front lines of a hand-to-hand combat war) I don't ever recall her telling me even once that she loved me. Because she didn't. She made that much very clear. She never told my brothers she loved them either. Because she didn't. She told us over and over and over that we were pieces of sh!t, that she hated our guts, she wished we were dead, that she'd like to kill us, etc, etc, etc. And maybe these things wormed their way into my unconscious audio tape loop, but consciously I never believed her--I knew (and so did my brothers) that there was something deeply wrong with her.

Nonetheless, I constantly question myself. I believe I should be a lot more screwed up than I am having grown up like I did. So then I can easily convince myself that I AM screwed up and in denial. Totally oblivious (like mom) to just how screwed up I must be. Hoo-boy, I must be a real piece of work, and don't even know it. This of course makes it easy to believe that problems in interpersonal relationships must be my fault because I am so screwed up. Never mind the fact that all my serious relationships have been with Anti-Social Personality disorder, narcissist personality disorder, and schizophrenic men. That couldn't have anything to do with it could it? No, wait a minute! What kind of person would have a relationship with an ASPD, an NPD, or a schizophrenic? See? THAT PROVES IT!

I am so sick of this insane circle.

When the schizophrenic husband accused me of purposefully making the room too warm in order to dominate him, I was stunned and baffled. But that didn't stop me from analyzing myself to see what was wrong with me that he would think something like that about me. DUH! He's a diagnosed schizophrenic! His chemically deranged brain has nothing to do with me! And I know that--but somehow, I have to go around that circle again and again and again.

I'm not a big fan of "emotions". Having watched my mother be an emotional train wreck, completely out of control, for years and years, makes emotions seem "weak" to me. Self indulgent. Dangerous.

But I find myself backed into a corner. Critical analytical thinking has saved my butt from plenty of problems. But it can't alone fix the disconnect between my thinking and feeling.

Avoiding my mother has greatly reduced the sadistic games, but hasn't taught me how to be a whole person. I truly believed, the whole time I was growing up, that if I could just get away from her, everything would be "normal" and fine. I was horrified to discover that wasn't the case. I have some "imprints" yet that need to be reprogrammed. It's happening. It's happening. 

[psychik]

Witch in the box!  I   that!  Sometimes a little humor goes a long way into dealing with unreasonable and unkind people. 

Your story is so familiar.  I feel such sadness for you.  It seems your mom takes mean to an all time high level.  My mother uses the relaying of mean messages in my family too.  Then, she condemns her children as a whole unit for passing on messages.  Hello, you installed the phone system and are running the switchboard!  The way out for me was to unplug from the system. 

There is no winning.  There is no reasoning. Thank you for telling your story.  You articulated much of what I feel.  Stay strong with your sparkly doors!  Love it!

[mother in law]

Your story sounds very like mine only mine is the ex DiL who constantly paints me black to all and sundry. It is horrible to be on the receiving end of it. I have cried alot of tears over it however the day I got my act together was the day I read that BPD's like to destroy their victim and make them as unhappy as they are (may our may not be true) was the day I thought I refuse to be broken by or anyone else. For some reason the psychology worked on me. She still tries and now and again I nearly bend but I say to myself no don't listen don't react just enjoy the wonderful world and people that she is not enjoying. Good luck I feel for you.

[maxen]

hi again doubleAries.

Avoiding my mother has greatly reduced the sadistic games, but hasn't taught me how to be a whole person. I truly believed, the whole time I was growing up, that if I could just get away from her, everything would be "normal" and fine. I was horrified to discover that wasn't the case. I have some "imprints" yet that need to be reprogrammed. It's happening. It's happening. 

this was exactly my discovery. when it was time for graduate school i had a choice between the close university and the far university. i said to her "i'll stay here, but you have to be nice to me," and she literally laughed in my face. (it was a hopeless request, to be honest.) so away i went and whaddya know, my own thought patterns didn't change. for a long time i didn't even know i was thinking wrong. it's horrifying (the right word) how deeply the patterns have insinuated themselves into my mind. recent events (with the BPD stbxw, which the mother is compounding, like by making jokes about it) have driven me into a complete self-evaluation and now, i think, stuff is moving around inside my skull.

[doubleAries]

The biggest problem by far has been the disconnect between emotion and thinking. No, not that I "don't have" emotions (or thinking), but I have a hard time reconciling the 2.

When you are involved in a single traumatic event, the emotions can be overwhelming. But if you are involved in a traumatic event for years on end, you just can't sustain that kind of emotional reaction. You just start to become numb. And being numb becomes a way of life. When the emotions stuffed in "the basement", mutated and underdeveloped, arise again, they are ugly and unwanted and stuffed back into the basement. Where they become even more underdeveloped and mutated.

I have the feelings--I'm just disconnected from them.

I can feel anger at what my mom has done, but a lot of difficulty with pain/empathy/sympathy with myself for what happened to me. Even in weekly therapy, the emotions start to come and then BAM! I automatically push them aside. Even when I am very purposefully trying not to. Just wanting to change this isn't enough. Being able to think rationally while physically furious seems like a breakthrough, but not so much really. It's rationality that got me through and continues to get me through, even if somewhat hobbled. It's what I always turn to. I don't allow myself to just experience the feelings as they come. And that very thing is what ends up having me "stuck" in emotionally bankrupt situations, tolerating things I don't want to tolerate.

One of my T "homework" assignments is to schedule feeling emotions. So at 7pm every night, I sit on my couch for 15 to 20 minutes trying to feel emotions and I don't. I feel sheepish and silly trying to make myself feel something. My rationality kicks in automatically, telling me how stupid and useless this exercise is, and why I don't need to do it.

I suppose it's somewhat better--like when I'm watching a movie or something, I have emotional reactions to what is going on in the movie. But if I think about some of the events of my childhood, it just shuts down. The events play across my mind, but usually all I can summon up is anger at the witch for being such a witch. Her behavior was too calculated, too manipulative, too downright sadistic to have sympathy for her. I can summon up a little sympathy for my brothers, but really--hardly any at all for me.

No, I don't think I need to ruminate and dwell on my childhood. But that's a safer place (because it is past) to see the root of the issue and try to change it, for the sake of the present and the future.

I really HAVE to. Over and over I have found myself drained (physically, emotionally, psychologically, financially) and swearing to never do "that" again, to just say no when I should have, to not get pushed into some relationship I don't want to be in with someone I don't want to be with, some situation I don't want to be involved in. I swear to myself it will never happen again. But it does. And it gets worse each time.

Because I desperately look for ways to smooth over or smother my emotions instead of just experiencing them; to make them "go away" because they are scary, or uncomfortable, or irreconcilable. But my "coping mechanism" is based on something obvious--I had to find a way to continually deal with the witch. You can't just say "that's it--I've had enough of your crap. I'm moving out" when you are 5 or 7 or 10 years old. And the coping method that got me through a hellish childhood is now the same coping method that makes me get in/stay in wretched situations I don't want to be in. To blame myself for my "inability" to turn hell into happily ever after. To try to "make the best of" a sham of a relationship--one that may have started because I had (mutated) sympathy for someone seriously mentally ill, and "somehow" wound up in a pretend relationship with--a sick interaction that I pretend could become a healthy one if only I did this or that better.

I'm 48 years old now. I've wasted a lot of time pretending I don't deserve any better; that I belong in the "crazy crowd"; that I'm so damaged that no one but a sociopath would want me anyway; that the specter of my mother will haunt me forever causing me to not fit in; that the best it will ever be is to find a person I deserve (a seriously damaged person) and "cheat fate" by fixing them (and thereby myself) and somehow pull a rabbit out of a hat, to pour orange juice out of a milk jug, to pull off some magic trick.

I'm scared.

Right now, I am enjoying being alone. I don't want a relationship.

Yeah--been here before--plenty of times. I even moved to a piece of property in the middle of nowhere with no electric or running water or phone services to try to hide from my inability to heal (just getting away from the witch should have done it, right? Well why not?). And a schizophrenic found me. He pushed his way into my life (all the while saying I pushed my way into HIS life) and eventually usurped everything I had, all while I sat there trying to understand what I was doing wrong, why this "relationship" hadn't healed itself, made 2 broken halves into a fixed whole; why I hadn't said NO--GO AWAY (How mean. How selfish. How intolerant!) and how did this happen... .AGAIN? Not only did I not say "NO--GO AWAY!"... .I married him! And then tried to pretend "we" could make it work. That sure, he's a schizophrenic, but not really.

How that all started was with me struggling and overcoming, buying myself a place and enjoying being alone (becoming self sufficient, independent), rebuilding my life. It ended with me being afraid of being stalked and harmed, moving out of my own place just to get away, and buying something else, once again enjoying being alone, rebuilding my life... .

I didn't go into that thinking I could "fix" him or love him into being healed. I just was terrified (why?) to say "NO--GO AWAY" and then tried to make the best of what I had (or hadn't) done.

When I was 16, I married an alcoholic ASPD. My mom had thrown me out at 15, and I really needed a place to live. I thought marrying this creep would secure that. 2 days before the wedding, he beat the crap out of me. I swallowed my pride (or what substituted for pride) and told my mom what happened and asked if I could come back home. She screamed in my face "NO! You made your bed, now you lay in it! I have already paid money towards your so called wedding and I'm not losing it!" Does this sound ridiculous and hateful? Well it doesn't when you are 16, and scared and numb at the same time. It sounded harsh but logical, practical. That's right--I made my bed, now I have to deal with the consequences. I still use that "logic".

This is the same mother who wouldn't allow her children to eat food unless she OK'd it--which wasn't often--and sounded "harsh but logical" to me when she caught me "STEALING" a can of tuna fish out of the cabinet (I was so hungry I could've eaten a sock at that point) and berated, spit on, slapped, and abused me for 4 hours (I was 11 years old), ended by stuffing 9 more cans of tuna down my throat with her hands until I puked, then smashed my face in the puke and tuna, and I came out of this believing she was mean, but hey--I DID "steal" food out of the rest of the families mouths, after all!

The same mother who made my brother kill my pet rabbit Cinnamon in front of me, then she cooked it and tried to make me eat it. With it's head sitting on the counter top across from the dining room table. Then convinced the whole family--including me--that it wasn't a big deal, that's what people do on farms (we weren't on a farm). That I was just acting like an assssshoole. As usual. And what do you do with assssshooles? You beat the hell out of them and pick them up by the neck and throw them in their bedrooms and tell them you hate their #*% guts and wish they'd never been born. You show everyone else in the family what happens when they don't do what they are told--perfectly reasonable requests, like eat your pet rabbit.

These are 2 examples out of many... .the kind of things that make you become numb after a while so you can cope with living there. You can't sustain horror for years and years. It eventually becomes "old hat". Just part of the daily routine. Even when you know it is INSANE. It becomes a matter of biding your time. Waiting to grow up and get away--when everything will be "normal".

Then some poor schizophrenic comes along, who looks positively "normal" by comparison, and gee, wouldn't it be nice to show others the compassion I was never shown? To show others the acceptance I was never shown? Even if some (selfish, intolerant) little voice inside is screaming "NO! GO AWAY! LEAVE ME ALONE!"

I don't know how to reconcile all this. I don't know where the middle ground is. And I'm scared to say "never again, I just want to be alone" because that's when some test comes along that I fail miserably.

[Grey Kitty]

Wow. Once again, I'm nearly speechless about what you've experienced... .and that you can't access your feelings about it.   I sure hope your T helps; I'm drawing a blank!

One of my T "homework" assignments is to schedule feeling emotions. So at 7pm every night, I sit on my couch for 15 to 20 minutes trying to feel emotions and I don't. I feel sheepish and silly trying to make myself feel something. My rationality kicks in automatically, telling me how stupid and useless this exercise is, and why I don't need to do it.

I've got some help to offer you for your "homework": Do you notice any feelings in your reaction to trying to experience feelings?

[mother in law]

Well double Aries I have one big apology to make your story is a few notches up on mine for horror. I am truly sorry you have had to experience such horrors. I wish I had answers but I have no answers to this whole problem. Just keep trying you deserve a happy and fulfilling life. I find it so hard to comprehend that parents can treat their children like that.

[doubleAries]

No apologies are necessary. Yeah, I experienced the far extreme of a personality disordered person (like I said before--she doesn't really fit BPD. She perfectly fits Sadistic PD, but that was removed from DSM). But that doesn't mean it isn't possible to overcome. And in many ways, overcome I certainly have. I own my own successful small business, which expands every year (I now have 8 employees). I got ran out of my property, but was able to buy a really beautiful home instead. I'm a volunteer firefighter/EMT (putting those codependent skills to actual valuable use   instead of wheel spinning). I'm a certified HazMat operations tech, swift water rescue tech, and "red card" holder (certified to fight fires on BLM and National Forest lands). I'm chairman of my political party in my county and a former board member of the state party, and current platform committee member of the national party. I have a lot to be grateful for this fine Thanksgiving. I'm really, really grateful I'm a grown up now and don't have to sit there day after day after day after week after month after year being ripped to shreds and not allowed to react by a witch anymore.

I've come a really long ways from my mom's prediction that I would just be a welfare mother with 5 or 6 different kids by 5 or 6 different fathers, washing dishes in a nursing home, living in a crusty trailer park (that's what she wanted for all her kids and smugly "predicted" regularly to each of us).

But there's still a missing piece here.

Yes, Grey Kitty--I see it  especially that when I begin to feel sheepish and silly (are those actual feelings?) I begin to THINK my way out of it. some part of me says "you know what? Lay off this crap. Quit wallowing around trying to drum up self-pity and just get on with things". That sounds pretty reasonable actually. Until I look at the mess my personal life is. On the outside, I've pretty well got it together.

And the fact that I have to work pretty hard just to feel hurt about the crap my mother said about me in the 1st post of this thread. Oh, I felt angry. VERY angry. No problem getting in touch with THAT. But that's about her and her behavior. Not me and my feelings. I need practice. That's all. T helps a lot. 

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. We can all be grateful we have each other, and this chat forum where we can help each other, and talk to others who understand the path we've walked. And that we want to grow and heal, unlike our tormentors. 

[Rose Tiger]

   It takes time to reconnect to feelings when you had to squash them down to survive.  The key for me was connecting to little me, to give her a voice.  My T told me I had to be completely unconditional and accepting towards her.  Bits would start to come to the surface and I had to continually tell her, it's ok, I'm here, I'm listening.  (Talk about feeling crazy  )  Telling her I was sorry that happened and that she was safe now, I would take care of her.  I feel like a big sister to her, very protective towards her.  Then one night, it all started coming up and I cried the entire night as memory after memory attached to the feelings that finally surfaced.

I don't think God let's these feelings surface until you are ready, until you are equipped to handle it.  The squashing down is a protection mechanism.