If they refuse to return the children...

[sanemom]

This is a bit convoluted.  Right now my husband and his BPD ex do a Thursday night dinner swap where he gets DSD, and BPD mom gets the boys from 6-8 for dinner.  Since they swap kids, they swap driving as well.  The written order (which still has DH primary of all three kids) says that BPD mom should pick up the kids at 6 and drop them off at 8.

He has an 8 week class on Thursday nights starting next week--there was no other option--so a couple of weeks ago he requested nicely that they switch nights.  The problem is, BPD mom is losing in court (her counselor has been removed from the case, and a DH's counselor was appointed for the reunification therapy) so she is not being cooperative AT ALL.  In her last email to DH, she said (in an oh-so-entitled manner) that we would be taking the boys to her on Thursday night (even though DH clearly stated that he would be in class and unavailable) and she would bring them to school the next day.  There is no Thursday overnight agreement at all.  And apparently, this weekend, she told the boys that there is a new order that the boys get overnights with her (they told their counselor all about the case because she won't shut up about it). 

So next Thursday if she picks up the boys and doesn't bring them back... .then what?  Our attorney suggested we not make a scene with the constables.  Right now, the attorney's strategy is basically for DH to behave VERY well and gather evidence of BPD mom's craziness.  The GAL is too mad right now at our attorney because the attorney managed to get the BPD mom's therapist removed without the GAL (the GAL chose not to go to the hearing).  Our attorney is EXTREMELY frustrated with how strongly the GAL is aligned with BPD mom--could give you ridiculous story after ridiculous story--so we are keeping the GAL in the dark as much as possible so he will look pretty ridiculous at trial spouting off BPD mom's lies without any verification (e.g. the GAL is saying that the boys want to live with BPD mom and seems sure of it; of course he hasn't spoken with the boys' counselor to find out that they really don't or to find out how BPD mom is trying to manipulate them--all of the GAL's info comes from BPD mom).

The attorney is hoping to get some cooperation from the GAL on the Thursday night swap deal, but he is not optimistic due to how mad the GAL is at our attorney and how aligned the GAL is with BPD mom.  SOO if BPD mom refuses to return the boys, then what?  Pick them up?  Document?  What do we say to the boys if it comes up?  We have said NOTHING about the case while BPD mom tells them everything and then some fake things as well.

[ForeverDad]

Why don't you just tell the boys the order has not changed since (date) and you will confirm to them if it does change.  Is it age appropriate to show them the current order?  They don't have to read the whole thing, just the paragraphs about the basic schedule and the schedule for exchanges.

[sanemom]

Why don't you just tell the boys the order has not changed since (date) and you will confirm to them if it does change.  Is it age appropriate to show them the current order?  They don't have to read the whole thing, just the paragraphs about the basic schedule and the schedule for exchanges.

Here's the problem... .they haven't said a WORD to dh about it.  They NEVER talk with him about the case, and since we were court ordered not to, we do not initiate the discussions.  I was hopeful that the counselor would encourage them to, but she didn't.  Perhaps next week when the BPD mom-created new order is in place, we can show them that at pick up?  BPD mom is supposed to bring them back, but I am betting she won't.

Our attorney's strategy is for us to be squeaky clean so they cannot blow up any "minor transgressions" and she can look worse.

[marbleloser]

I never understood why an attorney doesn't want someone to use legal means to enforce an order. If you sit back and let her have the overnight,her attorney is going to use that as "H gave up overnights with his kids because he couldn't be bothered with caring for them while he went to class.My client is better able to care for the children as she doesn't have these "distractions".

The judge can't get mad at H for following the court order.Also,if she wants the kids,it's her reponsability to come get them.When he wants them,it's his to go get them from her.

That said,can you go pick up the kids after their time with their mom while H is in class?

[Waddams]

Playing devil's advocate here... .

Would there be a problem with just tempoarily letting the kid's mom have them overnight on Thursday's while he's at his class for eight weeks?  Then, when the class is over, going back to what you do now?  In the world of reasonable adults and in divorce situations, scenarios like this happen.  You have to deviate from the court orders sometimes, and you have to be able to work it out on your own in order to avoid the drama/crazy making.  This isn't going to be a one off situation.  It will happen again, and again, and it's nobody's fault.  Life just happens this way.  Reasonable, mature adults should be able to figure it out on their own without too much conflict.  What time is DH's class over?  When will he get home?  Or could he conceivably just pick them up on his way home from class for those 8 weeks?

I know BPD mom is not a reasonable, mature adult, but at least making some suggestions to her via email.  Then document and show you tried to be reasonable. 

If nothing else, he should be able to swing by her place after class and pick them up.  If she refuses to hand them over, then that's a contempt issue, I would think.  I'd be tempted to call the cops, and even if they can't force a handover, they can write a police report that documents they showed up, and she refused to hand over the kids, that way he can have ironclad proof of her contempt of the orders.

[DreamGirl]

****crossed with Waddams

Take a deep breath. Don't get caught up in the drama.

One of the very few Parallel Parenting downfalls is that "polite switching" usually becomes obsolete. Especially when it comes to the disordered party who sees the switch as a way to puff out her chest.

First, if he can't transport them, he can't transport them. She can tell you to give her $100,000 too - doesn't mean that you have to.

Second, why "no" to the overnight? (Just curious)

I'd simplify this:

Dear Mama,

I was hoping that we could switch nights to accomodate my temporary class schedule. Any other night still works for me.

I'm not available to drop [sons] off on Thursday. If you want to pick them up business as usual and drop them off after dinner, that still works for me.

Thanks,

Mr. Sanemom

Call her at 8:15pm if they don't show up. If she freaks out and insists they stay the night? Let them. Then email her and tell her that you are not in agreement to the overnight, this time was obviously a misunderstanding - but that you are being crystal clear that it's not going to be OK the next Thursday.

CC your attorney, her attorney, the GAL, the counselor, the Judge, and the Pope if need be.

~DreamGirl

[sanemom]

I think part of the issue is she wants to have the boys overnight but will not let DH have DSD AT ALL during the week on a different night.  I understand that is the court ordered night, but if she is wanting more time with the boys while, at the same time, denying that DH have any time with DSD... .we won't even talk about how she is going against the court order and refusing to work with DH to get DSD into counseling with him.

The other part is that the DSS15 and my DD15 are in the same classes and do homework together and study together almost every Thursday night (lots of tests on Fridays)--it helps DSS15 who struggles with his grades.  But, of course, it is not about what is best for the kids anyway so there is no point mentioning that.

DG... .he has essentially done that email without emotion TWICE with BPD mom.  She is refusing to cooperate and starting to dictate terms.  We even showed a parent facilitator the email chain, and the PF said that DH's emails were exactly what the PF would suggest he write (PF is experienced in high conflict situations), and the PF also said that BPD mom is being completely unreasonable and if it goes to court, it would be obvious who wants to coparent.  Sometimes I wish we had a PF assigned to the case... .

The written order is whoever has the kids, does ALL of the transportation to and from.  :)H may have to go ahead and pick up the boys after class.  I have no desire to get involved in the drama of that.

And this last email, DH made it crystal clear that he was not in agreement with them staying overnight.  He ends the email saying "Let me just end by being clear:  I'm not OK with you unilaterally deciding to change Thursdays to include an overnight, nor am I OK with you denying me a night with DSD during the week.  I am asking you to work cooperatively with me on a solution."

[sanemom]

Well, we were right.  She kept the kids last night.  She pretended to the kids that she did not know that DH had a class starting this week (we have at least 10 emails about how she knows since September) and so she picked them up late.  She told DH that he either had to come after class at 11pm to pick them up or she was going to keep them for her weekend.

He emailed her that he was not going to play this game (this week the kids are off for break; next week Thursday night is a school night and an 11pm pick up is ridiculous).  He is going to contact the attorney today.  Her emails are getting more and more irrational and threatening. 

[ForeverDad]

Besides threatening, the operative words are uncooperative and obstructive.  IMO, I suspect court won't care much about 'irrational', kids being exposed to irrational doesn't seem to rate much court reaction.   I just had two 7-8 hour days in family court this week and son's GAL at one point asked my ex bluntly, "Ms FD, do you have memory problems?"  She was clearly obstructive, uncooperative, changing history to favor herself, loudly abrasive in attempted exchanges, etc.  I just don't know how that will be described, if mentioned, in the court's decision.

[sanemom]

She never returned the kids, and now it is her weekend.  Of course then we get a text from DSS saying he didn't have something because he thought his dad was going to pick them up.

We are between a rock and a hard place--no win.  If he had picked them up, he is letting her get away with not following the court order.  And also not getting them home until 11pm on a school night (because he isn't back from class until late). 

By not picking them up, he "lets" her have them, and the boys are being told that he doesn't want them enough to pick them up.

He has emails back and forth from the night saying he is NOT ok with her having them and keeping them, and that he expected her to follow the court order since they could not come to a mutual agreement.  She told him at first that she was going to keep them for the weekend, and then she told him that if he wanted them, to come and get them. 

It is so convoluted it is hard to know which way is up.

We just hope she brings them back Sunday night.

[DreamGirl]

So... .If he has a class on Thursdays - why not let her just have her way?

[sanemom]

So... .If he has a class on Thursdays - why not let her just have her way?

DH would probably be more willing to do that if he didn't know that she was spending whatever extra time she has with the kids trying to turn them against him.  The other part is, of course, the question of how many times do we let her do whatever she wants and "break rules" just to avoid the mess?  Doesn't that just get her to keep increasing the stakes?

He would also be more willing if she was willing to let him see DSD during the week on a different night, but so far she has made it clear that she does not think he should be allowed to have dinner with DSD (her reasoning is that he chose his class over DSD--it doesn't matter that this was the only night that this class was available and it is necessary for him to graduate).

He may have to do let the boys spend the night (let her have her way) and just document she is not returning the kids as per the court order.  It is either that or drama, it seems.