Stressful times and the "new" me

[allibaba]

I know a few of you have followed my story but in a nutshell:

I have a uBPD mother (65) and a uBPD husband (47).  Both are high functioning.  My mom had trauma as a kid.  My husband had some abuse as a kid but his mental illness really developed in his early 40's as a result of a series of very bad events.

I did a lot of work on boundaries/ validation etc with my mom a few years back and effectively have a normal relationship with her now (she has also done some work on herself).

My husband had become physically and emotionally abusive a few years ago and things were getting worse and worse until I found this site.  Everything culminated in a massive incident in July (my husband ended up in a ball crying for 3 days, promising that he had hit his bottom and would get help and get back on his feet).  The boundaries are working in many, many ways and our lives have improved greatly.

Right now we are in the middle of some stressful times.  My husband just finished his seasonal minimum wage (he's a highly intelligent qualified professional who is paralyzed by fear and anxiety at the moment).  One of his biggest triggers is not working.  Last week he did lots of work around the house and managed to hold it together (for the most part).  We had a bit of BPD drama but I was able to manage it with firm boundaries.  He has been applying for jobs on his own for the first time in 5 yrs!  I'm really proud of him but its taking everything he has got to do this.

Another note, is that as a result of therapy, I understand (reading between the lines) that he's probably mildly bipolar in addition to majorly BPD (and lots of anxiety and ocd to boot).

This morning we had drama.  I woke up at 5 am to our toddler crying for his bottle.  Went and got one and unfortunately the milk was empty and needed to be refilled.  I had to go to the bathroom and thought... .its 5 am I will go to the bathroom and then I will come back and refill the milk.  While I was in the bathroom my husband (who has a high metabolism as well as diabetes type 2- no insulin) went for a glass of milk.  It was empty and he lost it.  Normally we keep 2 jugs full but I wasn't on my game.  Anyway he threw food across the kitchen and went into a tirade about how I am ruining his life and he's deathly ill and I don't care about him and he's dying of diabetic nerve damage (diabetes doc says he has the best bloodwork that she has ever seen for a diabetic in 40 yrs as a doctor).  

All he had to do was take milk out of the shelf below and refill the jug but instead I got him yelling that he wants a divorce and he's going to die of a low blood sugar today (um, unlikely since he's diabetic and not on insulin).  He went on and on about how I am a cold hearted b and the devil incarnate etc etc and that he thinks that I am trying to destroy him.

I think that I managed ok this morning but there are so many things that come out of this situation that needs to be addressed.  I'm lost.

1.  He was hungry when he woke up because he worked out yesterday and ate cereal for dinner (his own decision).  I will not own it.

2.  Yes we agree that there will always be 2 milk jugs - this is important to him.  I missed it.  But there are 2 adults in the house.  I own exactly 50% of that responsibility.

3.  I am not ok with having the clean up messes in the kitchen because he's having a bad day.  I need a boundary here (normally I walk out if I'm preparing a meal but I actually have him doing his own breakfast now.  So I need a new boundary. Woo hoo.)!  

4.  He can't control his rages (generally).  They trigger once a week like clockwork.  He needs to be medicated.

I don't think that I can manage all of this in one conversation.  I have SET prepared for #4 but haven't found a good opportunity for it.  #3 I just need to be prepared and need ideas.

For 1 and 2, I was thinking "You're my best friend and I know that you are going through a lot right of stress right now.  I can't ever understand how hard it is to be gluten intolerant, have a high metabolism, and deal with diabetes.  You chose to eat cereal for dinner after a workout.  I offered to make you a dinner with more calories but you declined which put you into a bad situation with your blood sugar.  I can continue to try to make sure that there are 2 milks stocked in the fridge but I will miss it occasionally.  If you see me only stocking 1 milk please go ahead and help by filling up the 2nd jug so that you don't get caught in a bad situation when you are hungry."  

I am going to ignore the threat after threat of divorce, all the misc stuff he threw at me verbally this morning and the fact that he left his wedding ring on my pillow.  Last night he thanked me for being stable emotionally because currently (according to him) he is a basket case.  I set my stopwatch at that point to 12 hrs and began preparing for the next meltdown.  Not my first rodeo

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

  I'm so sorry to hear what you are going through. Again.

I set my stopwatch at that point to 12 hrs and began preparing for the next meltdown.  Not my first rodeo

It sounds like you have the right attitude and the right tools for yourself. Practical solutions to things which set him off are the right thing to do, but won't solve the real problem.

I think your assessment that he needs more treatment is correct. When he is disordered, he is going to be less receptive than usual. (I'm sure you know this too.)

Boundaries will be necessary. First keep yourself safe. Second your son and your dogs. Then do as much as you can for your H.

I wish you strength.

 GK

[allibaba]

Its all part of the process!

So you think the plan is ok... .well then I'll go for it

Any idea about what to do about him throwing food around the kitchen.  I can't not pick up the food.  The dogs would walk it through the house.  Not sure what else to do here... .

[123Phoebe]

Its all part of the process!

Allibaba

I, by no means, want to discount your efforts with your H; you have taken tremendous care in accepting him.

Reality is that once a week he blows.  He mouths off.  He throws stuff.  He gets out of control.

Understanding that he's going through stressful times is one thing.  Subjecting your son to this kind of behavior is another.  Regardless of his age, what room of the house he's in, doesn't matter.  He is being exposed to abuse.  His mother is being abused and allowing it.

This sort of thing cannot be intellectualized and spoken about in just the right way.  It is flat out domestic violence.

4.  He can't control his rages (generally).  They trigger once a week like clockwork.  He needs to be medicated.

^^Is this a boundary of yours?^^

What if meds don't control his rages?

What is your bottom line?

[briefcase]

My wife also has more difficulty controlling her anger when she's hungry (low blood sugar).  As we learn and work on our reactions these kinds of outburst start to lose their impact (removal of wedding rings, threats of divorce, etc.).  As these buttons lose their impact on us, they get pushed less and less. 

Hang in there. I've followed your journey for a long time, and you're doing great. 

[zaqsert]

You really are doing great, Allibaba.  It's so good to see!   

The one thing I wonder after reading your post may be what Phoebe picked up on too.  What is your boundary around verbal abuse?  From your past posts, I believe you have one.  I remember the one about stopping any food preparation that you're doing for him.

I ask because it seems that your h went pretty far into the list of accusations and threats.  Maybe he rattled them off pretty quickly.  But I wonder to what extent you may have stayed around, which gave him time to keep going.

I've noticed that the faster I enforce my "walk away and ignore" boundary, the less time my uBPDw has to make accusations and threats, the less I have to put up with hearing them, and the less she can take out her own negative emotions on me.

[123Phoebe]

Any idea about what to do about him throwing food around the kitchen.  I can't not pick up the food.  The dogs would walk it through the house.  Not sure what else to do here... .

If you didn't pick up H's thrown food and the dogs tracked it through the house, what do you think his reaction would be?  Is it scary to think about?

[allibaba]

The one thing I wonder after reading your post may be what Phoebe picked up on too.  What is your boundary around verbal abuse?  From your past posts, I believe you have one.  I remember the one about stopping any food preparation that you're doing for him.

I ask because it seems that your h went pretty far into the list of accusations and threats.  Maybe he rattled them off pretty quickly.  But I wonder to what extent you may have stayed around, which gave him time to keep going.

I've noticed that the faster I enforce my "walk away and ignore" boundary, the less time my uBPDw has to make accusations and threats, the less I have to put up with hearing them, and the less she can take out her own negative emotions on me.

The boundary around verbal abuse is that I DO NOT STICK AROUND.  I walk away.  This morning he followed me into the bathroom and spoke very very quickly before going down into the basement.  The verbal abuse lasted maybe 60 seconds max.  If we are in the car, then I make it clear that if he can't stop the verbal abuse that he is welcome to drop me off at the nearest driveway.  He's only taken me up on the 'offer' once.  At no point did I ok or even remain silent for the tirade.  I had to enforce the 'no verbal abuse' in the car this weekend.  It ended the behavior.  FYI our son was with a babysitter.  This morning he was asleep (I quietly checked after the tirade and he was snoring).

The follow up was probably two hours later when he told me that our relationship wasn't working.  Hadn't ever worked and that he wants a divorce.  He did throw in 2 cents that clearly I don't care about anyone because I allowed my alcoholic father to drink (clearly not my fault.  he got sober when I was in my early 20's and therefore I am a cold hearted b)

Any idea about what to do about him throwing food around the kitchen.  I can't not pick up the food.  The dogs would walk it through the house.  Not sure what else to do here... .

If you didn't pick up H's thrown food and the dogs tracked it through the house, what do you think his reaction would be?  Is it scary to think about?

No its not scary to think about at all.  I refuse to allow milk or any other food to be tracked around my house and rot.  I have pride in my surroundings.

Its all part of the process!

Understanding that he's going through stressful times is one thing.  Subjecting your son to this kind of behavior is another.  Regardless of his age, what room of the house he's in, doesn't matter.  He is being exposed to abuse.  His mother is being abused and allowing it.

This sort of thing cannot be intellectualized and spoken about in just the right way.  It is flat out domestic violence.

I am an adult and I chose to remain in this relationship and work on the tools required to improve our lives.  I have seen massive improvements over the last 6 months.  He cooks, he cleans, he has worked 95% of the time.  He contributes his earnings to our household bills and he has stopped spending every last penny we have on stupid stuff.  He now agrees that he suffers from mental illness and his dyregulations usually do not involve rages (he dyregulates once a week.  He doesn't rage once a week.  I did not state this correctly in my post as I was at work and in a hurry.  He's raged verbally to me 3x since July so about once a month). When he gets in a rage I do not stick around.  The walls in our house are thick.  I can't hear our son cry from our bedroom (which is next door to ours) unless the baby monitor is on or the doors are open. 

I do not agree with the following statement... .feeling free to point out where I am wrong. 

His mother is being abused and allowing it.

My husband does not want to expose our son to domestic violence since he himself was raised with it.  He generally limits it to me.  I have made it clear that I won't play his games any more.  

I would have no issue if a member of 'child protective services' was sitting on my shoulder like an angel watching my every move.  My first priority is my son.  I am not a victim and I have gone to great efforts to make sure that my son is not exposed to much of my husband's mood swings.  Since I started on this journey his exposure to abuse has decreased to almost nothing.  If my husband can't handle doing the baby routines - he tells me that he isn't up for it. If he's in a mood he goes downstairs.  The time that I don't have control over yet is the mornings.  He experiences strong anxiety when he wakes up (a lot to do with blood sugar).  The other dyregulations throughout the day have virtually disappeared.

^^Is this a boundary of yours?^^

What if meds don't control his rages?

What is your bottom line?

No this is not a boundary.  I don't really think that I want to get into WHAT IFS on meds when he hasn't even tried them.  I also don't know what my bottom line is on meds.  I think people far too often jump to them when they are not a 'fix all'.

[allibaba]

My wife also has more difficulty controlling her anger when she's hungry (low blood sugar).  As we learn and work on our reactions these kinds of outburst start to lose their impact (removal of wedding rings, threats of divorce, etc.).  As these buttons lose their impact on us, they get pushed less and less. 

Hang in there. I've followed your journey for a long time, and you're doing great. 

Thanks!  Funny thing is that I see lots of posts about diabetes, blood sugar issues, gluten intolerances and autoimmune diseases.  My husband has all of them.  I believe that the blood sugar imbalances and gluten increase aggression.   I can virtually always tie my husbands rages to eating too much bread or sugar late the day before.  He confirmed the same thing to me.

[KateCat]

My husband does not want to expose our son to domestic violence since he himself was raised with it.

Now I really think your husband is a reincarnation of my late father. If you had asked my father, up to the day of his death, if he was abusive to his wife and kids, he would have been stunned that you had even posed the question. He himself was beaten and neglected, and his own behavior toward his family stopped a little short of what you have been describing here.

I think the consequences of our father's emotional illness and unpredictable outbursts have been the greatest for my brother, the only other male in the home as we kids were growing up. It seems to me now that a son has to short-circuit his natural impulses to protect his mother in situations like this. My brother will not ever speak of any of this, so I can't know the costs to him of this particular aspect of our childhood. (For the record: my brother has never married, has no children of his own, has had bouts of substance abuse and depression, but has otherwise been a high-functioning professional, as was his father. He is a highly ethical man, as was his father.)

I would love to hear if (given full disclosure) a therapist would advise you that there is a way to protect your son, without some very major changes in your family. One thing I strongly believe is that there is no wall so thick that children, even very small ones, are separate from what is happening between their parents.

You are a remarkable woman, really trying hard. I'm very, very sorry you have this disorder attacking the core of your family and home.

[allibaba]

Now I really think your husband is a reincarnation of my late father. If you had asked my father, up to the day of his death, if he was abusive to his wife and kids, he would have been stunned that you had even posed the question. He himself was beaten and neglected, and his own behavior toward his family stopped a little short of what you have been describing here.

My husband openly acknowledges that his behavior towards me had become abusive back in July.  Its now a fact and is openly discussed in our house between my husband and I.  The was the foundation of our new beginning.  I don't expect things to change overnight.  Its not realistic.  I also don't expect him to be as healthy during stressful times.  That was kind of the point of my post. 

As long as the trends seem to be going in the right direction and my son, dogs, and I are not in danger then I am happy to stay in the relationship and keep working on it.

You are a remarkable woman, really trying hard. I'm very, very sorry you have this disorder attacking the core of your family and home.

 

I'm sorry too.  Its important to remember though, I am not the only one fighting it.  My husband is fighting it too and he's not exactly playing with a full deck of cards.  He speaks openly and honestly about the horrors that go through his head.  He says right now he is able to pull back from 'losing it' (dyregulation) about 90% of the time.  I can see him do this because he now walks away quietly (either into our bedroom or outside).  He does this because I changed the way that I react to him and he no longer gets his needs fulfilled by tantrums.

The time that we still struggle with is the mornings and the more I think about it the more I believe that this is tied to FOOD (blood sugar - either low blood sugar from his high metabolism or the after effects of too much processed sugar or gluten the night before).

I would love to hear if (given full disclosure) a therapist would advise you that there is a way to protect your son, without some very major changes in your family. One thing I strongly believe is that there is no wall so thick that children, even very small ones, are separate from what is happening between their parents.

FYI 2 different therapists have had full disclosure of the happenings in our house.  The one that I see now says that the best thing that I can do for my son is the steps that I am following here and removing him calmly before things go south.  I'm usually able to do that by saying to my husband, 'I need to run errands would you like to keep the baby here? or do you want me to take him with me?'  He usually recognizes that he is 'out of his mind' and says 'no you take him'.

I'm under no illusion that my son isn't exposed to the conflict in our house but on the balance he sees more positives from his dad than negatives (he adores his dad and I am very supportive of that relationship) and I believe that at the moment as a two parenting team, we bring more balance to his life than I would alone.  I'm sure he hears some arguments but the majority of our disagreements are not yelling matches (they are rare) and objects don't normally fly around the house.  On the balance so far, he's a very happy little boy (everyone comments on that).  I watch every day for signs that he isn't adjusting well.  He goes to daycare and he's bright/ advanced for his age and very social.  I can't protect him from everything and I'm not going to try.  He gets to be a kid and that is what is most important.

[zaqsert]

The boundary around verbal abuse is that I DO NOT STICK AROUND.  I walk away.

Good.  Glad to hear!  I thought that was the case from your prior posts, but for some reason I wondered when I read your post above.  Thanks for confirming. 

[allibaba]

Thanks!  Funny thing is that I see lots of posts about diabetes, blood sugar issues, gluten intolerances and autoimmune diseases.  My husband has all of them.  I believe that the blood sugar imbalances and gluten increase aggression.   I can virtually always tie my husbands rages to eating too much bread or sugar late the day before.  He confirmed the same thing to me.

Hmmm I think that I have stumbled on an option here.  His mood swings almost disappeared a few years ago when he went on a gluten free diet for 6 months.  I think that when I have the SET discussion about medication, the part where I say "what we are doing now isn't working" should be followed by some options of supporting him in a GF diet or mood stabilizers.  There is lots of links between gluten intolerance and mental illness.  One of the most common signs of gluten intolerance is

"Emotional issues involving chronic irritability and sudden, irrational mood shifts."

Learn more: www.naturalnews.com/038170_gluten_sensitivity_symptoms_intolerance.html#ixzz2iYPkPJsy

Depression

  Anxiety

  Neuropathy

  Irrational irritability

  Mood swings

www.glutenfreesociety.org/gluten-free-society-blog/gluten-sensitivity-intolerance-self-test/

And here is an interesting article... .

www.celiacdisease.about.com/od/CeliacNeuroSymptoms/a/Gluten-Neurological-Symptoms.htm

Thanks again for listening.  I really think that I have stumbled on something valuable here.  I forgot how good he was when he went gluten free for 6 months.

[KateCat]

I think removing yourself and your son when things get scary is a great practice, and it seems to be paying off for all of you. . . . Have you discussed with your therapist(s) the best course of action when your husband throws food around? My general impression has been that therapists consider it counterproductive for the "non-throwing" spouse to clean up after the "throwing" spouse.

[allibaba]

Have you discussed with your therapist(s) the best course of action when your husband throws food around? My general impression has been that therapists consider it counterproductive for the "non-throwing" spouse to clean up after the "throwing" spouse.

I agree here but the problem comes is that I have a personal value on cleanliness.  If he dumps food in the sink then I leave it but if its across the floors or walls then I clean it up.  I had some discussion about this a while back with the therapist but can't remember the outcome.  I do remember him saying that leaving the messes that my husband creates is important.  We had a box of cereal (closed) at the bottom of our stairs for 3 days last week until he picked it up.   

[allibaba]

The food in the kitchen thing has come up 2x this month which is why I was asking if anyone had any idea on better boundaries.

[KateCat]

I think you're asking exactly the right question, because the food dumped on the floor or thrown at the wall can be expected to increase in frequency, now that you're removing yourself when situations of general verbal dysregulation begin. (It re-directs your solicitous attention back to him, back to his diet, back to various ways to soothe him.)

I think I've seen maybe a dozen examples of advice here on bpdfamily.com (including advice from official Advisors) specifically regarding this issue of throwing things and making physical messes. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the idea is to endure the "extinction burst" of messes in the short term, in order to regain control of the physical environment in the long term. In other words, let him live (too) with the results of his actions.

I suspect he is very aware of the fact that you take pride in your home.

[allibaba]

I think I've seen maybe a dozen examples of advice here on bpdfamily.com (including advice from official Advisors) specifically regarding this issue of throwing things and making physical messes. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the idea is to endure the "extinction burst" of messes in the short term, in order to regain control of the physical environment in the long term. In other words, let him live (too) with the results of his actions.

I suspect he is very aware of the fact that you take pride in your home.

I think that you are spot on here.  He's found a way to take control back.  The answer is probably to put the dogs outside and leave the mess at least in the short-term.  He's an OCD neat freak so it eats at him far more than it eats at me.

His aunt (like a mother to him)... .once told me that if he leaves laundry on the floor... .put it on his pillow.  He'll quickly learn to pick it up.  My husband's parents used to drop him off to be with this aunt when he was acting up as a kid.  The story goes - he would always behave at her house (because it was the house of tough love).  This included if she found drugs in his drawers or coat pockets then she made it clear that she would be the one calling the police.  Got to love that aunt.  Got to take a page out of her book.

[KateCat]

Phoebe hit on a difficult topic when she asked above, in this thread, what you are afraid of in the event you do not pick up after him. (And, just to be extra snarky, I will add that I find it of note that you touched on this issue with a therapist but cannot seem to remember what that discussion yielded.) I wonder if your conscious mind is not trying to "protect" you from answering this question.

[allibaba]

I wonder if your conscious mind is not trying to "protect" you from answering this question.

I doubt it.  I have a TERRIBLE memory (admittedly serves me well at times).  It forgets about all sorts of stuff... .including (in this post) the fact that my husbands mood swings almost went away when he went off of gluten for 6 months in 2012!

I am not afraid of standing up to my husband anymore.  I am still afraid of him if I am near him when he rages.  I think that that is healthy fear that tells me when its time to leave the room/ the house/ or the situation.

[KateCat]

I am not afraid of standing up to my husband anymore.

Does he know, pretty clearly, what you will do if he gets so frustrated he hits you again, or pushes you down again, or throws something at you again?

I think that if unambiguous physical assault is your boundary, and if you have expressed it clearly, then you have accomplished the main thing that seems to define the successful "Stayers" who post here. They face their greatest fears.

It must be hurtful and humiliating to clean up after his deliberate fouling of your nest. Repeatedly. If I were doing this, I think it would only be out of fear. So this is what I do not understand about the new you . . . .

[stockholmama]

Hi Allibaba, I have gone through similar messes - making a mess is almost a power trip, a way of expressing power when a disregulated person is holding back from something more serious (hitting, physical, breaking objects). This shows some level of self-control and redirection. In a way, this is good, if only that it doesn't deteriorate. In another way, it is bad, because he will not clean up his own messes. Take a picture of every occurrence, before your clean it, and store it somewhere secure. Do this not just for your own memory (one loses track quickly of just how many times a bad thing happened to us, because we mentally block it). It is useful because it will eventually come up someday during an MC or mediator session that "I NEVER made a mess for you to clean up, tell me ONE instance where I did that!" And there you will have have it. Documentation is good. It's also good that he's got a high level of self-awareness even when he's going off his rocker, including during the times when he's off, and he seems to know he's off the rails then, so there's that. Still though, it is depressing and wearing down's one's resolve to deal with it on that frequency. I wish the best for you and your family.

[KateCat]

Just want to add that I do not think of "facing your fears" as provoking him or anything. Something, maybe, one day along the lines of a therapeutic separation and/or requiring very specific therapy. Other options seem too dangerous in this particular situation, at least to me.

When you have time, check out the posts of "Steph," who was a long-time advisor to the Staying Board. She is a psychiatric nurse, and her husband was every bit as ill as yours is. She bit a really big bullet along the road to saving her marriage, and she is one of the undeniable success stories of this forum.

Added: terrific suggestions from stockholmama.

[allibaba]

When you have time, check out the posts of "Steph," who was a long-time advisor to the Staying Board. She is a psychiatric nurse, and her husband was every bit as ill as yours is. She bit a really big bullet along the road to saving her marriage, and she is one of the undeniable success stories of this forum.

Thanks for this KateCat.  I have seen a few of the posts of Steph (maybe on the Success stories).  I'll try to track through her story when I get some more time.

I truly believe that my marriage is worth fighting for.  I do not believe that I am in any physical danger anymore.  The work with boundaries has cut out any physical aggression other than throwing things and like I said... .they now take flight in the opposite direction of me!  Yay!

I unfortunately believe to do the work to return our marriage/ family to sanity that I will have to bite a few bullets and swallow the old proverbial ego.  The fact that my husband understands that I am no longer the problem is HUGE (he only blames me when completely dyregulated and this is a huge change)!  For him to realize this, I had to grow a backbone and stop being a doormat. 

I also believe that my husband will ultimately get the treatment that he needs and we will return to a somewhat regular existence.  Last night he shared that he's had so many years of self-created drama that he's actually having to learn to be normal again.  Poor guy.  I even see it in myself.  When things are too good or too quiet I can antsy because I have become conditioned to the insanity.  When these days happen I take them for what they are - a blessing!  That means that the trauma and drama is reducing... .and I myself am having to ween off of my addiction to insanity.

Thanks again for your support.

[KateCat]

These are great realizations, allibaba! (Don't suppose your husband wants some of that help--you know, like DBT--in learning how to be normal, does he?)

[waverider]

I think you are doing really well. It needs to be acknowledged that it is a slow and steady process getting things back on a healthy path. Even then it wont be perfect.

So I would suggest that you continue to consolidate on what you have achieved. Yes apply your mind to the next steps, but don't put too much pressure on trying to fix them immediately. Often the calming effect of what you have already takes time to flow through to them so they start to see things for themselves.

As far as throwing things and making a mess, you are right leave it short term and address it once things have calmed down, rather than clean up whilst the dysregulation is still happening. Otherwise in his mind it won't register the full extend of it really happening.

Sometimes cleaning up together after an episode works best as it is less accusatory and they can still feel ownership of it, maybe even embarrassment. The object is to try to find the less confront way to prevent it happening again rather than blame making over that particular incident.

You are correct, making boundaries over medications would be wrong at this stage as it is an as yet unproven answer to anything, so any fears over them can be real and you can't say otherwise.

As far as kids being exposed to 'episodes', dont overlook the fact that they  can see when it is becoming less frequent. Kids can often see progress more readily than you, and shrug it off as ":)ads getting better". Its when it is trending the other way, or not at all, that it does real harm. You are not being seen to be walked over or allowing it to happen, it will be seen that you are a lot stronger and taking more control of situations, but sometimes it happens and you can't control everything, thats life.

[allibaba]

Does he know, pretty clearly, what you will do if he gets so frustrated he hits you again, or pushes you down again, or throws something at you again?

I think that if unambiguous physical assault is your boundary, and if you have expressed it clearly, then you have accomplished the main thing that seems to define the successful "Stayers" who post here. They face their greatest fears.

I missed this the first time through -- I was re-reading this post trying to find good 'nuggets' from the discussions.

Yes.  My husband realized back in July that laying a hand on me was not an option any more.  He was physical with me a few times over the years but it was more of a 'power play' than anything.  In October 2012 I called the police on him one morning because his behavior was hanging on a thread and I feared things were about to go south.  To be honest, that was really the beginning of our journey.  I was clear with the police that I was not reporting anything but that they better get their butts out here and have a chat with my husband before he did something that he would regret.  In July, I called the police on him again.  :)idn't report him (I only used them as a tool to get things back on track) - but made it abundantly clear to my husband that physical behavior would NO LONGER BE TOLERATED.  I basically told him that I love him but I am not a victim and therefore I was going to stop acting like one.  It would break my heart because I think it would finish him, but he knows that I'll have him 'locked up' without hesitation.

It must be hurtful and humiliating to clean up after his deliberate fouling of your nest. Repeatedly. If I were doing this, I think it would only be out of fear. So this is what I do not understand about the new you . . . .

I think that it can feel hurtful and humiliating if you allow it to be.  I tell myself that in fact... .its not about me... .its about him.  In other words, he destroys his surroundings because he is hating himself.  Sometimes I have to 'con' myself into forgetting all the hatred that he harbors during a dyregulation just to get through it without resentment.  It is what it is.

[allibaba]

Thanks for the validation and tips waverider.  Very good points.  Wish I had more time to comment

[KateCat]

What a terrific, inventive idea from waverider: if your husband will participate in clean up when he has calmed down, that seems like a genuine game-changer. A real owning, or at least "co-owning" of the situation.

I'd like to dispute the following idea, though, at least as far as young kids are concerned:

Kids can often see progress more readily than you, and shrug it off as ":)ads getting better". Its when it is trending the other way, or not at all, that it does real harm.

You might be hard pressed to find anyone who experienced being a small child with a scary dad who would agree with this statement. (And Dr. Phil definitely would disagree: according to him, each episode of witnessing out-of-control parental anger "changes who a child is." Sorry for the T.V. psychology, but I think your son's emotional development needs an advocate here too. You cannot know the damage until much later . . . .

Good for you, great for you on the no-DV boundary. 

[waverider]

I'd like to dispute the following idea, though, at least as far as young kids are concerned:

Kids can often see progress more readily than you, and shrug it off as ":)ads getting better". Its when it is trending the other way, or not at all, that it does real harm.

You might be hard pressed to find anyone who experienced being a small child with a scary dad who would agree with this statement. (And Dr. Phil definitely would disagree: according to him, each episode of witnessing out-of-control parental anger "changes who a child is." Sorry for the T.V. psychology, but I think your son's emotional development needs an advocate here too. You cannot know the damage until much later . . . .

Good for you, great for you on the no-DV boundary. 

This is presuming of course that the outburst are not physical, or directed at the kids and are lessoning compared to what they used to be. ie things are getting better. It is a judgement call of course, but you are not going to completely transform any situation overnight. Pushing too hard can be counter productive, as you then stop being on the same side and are once again projected as a "controlling tyrant' and cycle back to square one.

In my RS projecting anger and blame onto everyone around was a major issue. To stop that it was necessary to work together so my partner could own what she was doing. Blanket boundaries simply dug the denial deeper. Allowing the emotions to come out as "outbursts' as that was the only way she knew of communicating them, and rather then expecting an argument/boundaries, they started to self extinguish as they were met with no drama.

The consequences of this is that now when these 'BPD  moments' happen they are always acted in, there is no projection of anger or conflict onto me or the kids now, ever. In fact whenever there is a heated conflict it is nearly always started by me...

Normal folks argue and fight, it is too easy to try and overcompensate too quickly and make the changes impossible for them to keep up with.