A lot of talk about the mother, what about their fathers?

[DownandOut]

I noticed that a lot of the research on the causes of BPD are with regard to having a BPD mother. My uBPDexgf's mother was no cup of tea and definitely appeared to be a waif in her own respect, however, if a "person who suffers under his perversion bears within himself his mother's rejection, and thus he flaunts his per-version, in order to get others to reject him, too, all the time—so reexternalizing the rejecting mother" can the same be true for the father. My uBPDexgf's father is an alcoholic womanizer. When she was 10, her father left her mother for the woman he cheated with and she did not have a good relationship with her father until her early adult years. Although the relationship is more stable now, it's hard to believe that the early years didn't have a profound effect on her life. Her father abandoned her and her siblings and maybe the quote above can be applied to her relationship with men in the present day. So I'm asking if anyone has any information about the father's relationship causing or at least contributing to the BPD.

[strikeforce]

Your story is almost exactly the same as my BPD exs background. I will try to post more later 

[Turkish]

Mine was due to having most likely a BPD father (serial cheater and abuser). The hard thing is that infidelity and abuse is also a cultural thing. The fact that she came to the USA when she was 11 means she is caught between two worlds, for example. It was so pathological with her that she refused to date anyone from her culture. Catching one's father in bed with another woman at age 6 certainly can mess someone up. Add to that the physical and verbal abuse she observed from her father towards her mother for years and years... .the physical abuse stopped some time ago, but her father was caught with basically a "kept" woman just this past year, which is what makes my BPDex's cheating all the more painful for everybody. The lawyer I consulted with threw out that her father has BPD too. In thinking about things, this is probably right. I am pretty sure her older brother has it: his love addiction/idealization he still posts all over FB... .sad for a guy in his mid 30s. Add to that his pattern of unstable relationships, very poor self image (despite being very intelligent), his severe moodiness... .and it's a sure bet. Her younger sister, while not as emotionally disregulated as my ex, displays some traits, just not the triggered bouts of anger. The younger kids seem ok.

With that, I conclude that there is probably some genetic component to it, which makes me fear for my son, who at 3 I can see takes after his mother more in personality. Luckily, he has a good heart. I will have to watch him like a hawk for a long time.

[Waifed]

Mine was due to having most likely a BPD father (serial cheater and abuser). The hard thing is that infidelity and abuse is also a cultural thing. The fact that she came to the USA when she was 11 means she is caught between two worlds, for example. It was so pathological with her that she refused to date anyone from her culture. Catching one's father in bed with another woman at age 6 certainly can mess someone up. Add to that the physical and verbal abuse she observed from her father towards her mother for years and years... .the physical abuse stopped some time ago, but her father was caught with basically a "kept" woman just this past year, which is what makes my BPDex's cheating all the more painful for everybody. The lawyer I consulted with threw out that her father has BPD too. In thinking about things, this is probably right. I am pretty sure her older brother has it: his love addiction/idealization he still posts all over FB... .sad for a guy in his mid 30s. Add to that his pattern of unstable relationships, very poor self image (despite being very intelligent), his severe moodiness... .and it's a sure bet. Her younger sister, while not as emotionally disregulated as my ex, displays some traits, just not the triggered bouts of anger. The younger kids seem ok.

With that, I conclude that there is probably some genetic component to it, which makes me fear for my son, who at 3 I can see takes after his mother more in personality. Luckily, he has a good heart. I will have to watch him like a hawk for a long time.

Its funny you talk about cheating.  My exes father had an affair with her mothers sister (her aunt) when she was a child.  He cheated on his mother many times according to her.  You would think that she would recognize the pain it caused her mother and would never consider cheating on someone.  NOT!

[Turkish]

Mine was due to having most likely a BPD father (serial cheater and abuser). The hard thing is that infidelity and abuse is also a cultural thing. The fact that she came to the USA when she was 11 means she is caught between two worlds, for example. It was so pathological with her that she refused to date anyone from her culture. Catching one's father in bed with another woman at age 6 certainly can mess someone up. Add to that the physical and verbal abuse she observed from her father towards her mother for years and years... .the physical abuse stopped some time ago, but her father was caught with basically a "kept" woman just this past year, which is what makes my BPDex's cheating all the more painful for everybody. The lawyer I consulted with threw out that her father has BPD too. In thinking about things, this is probably right. I am pretty sure her older brother has it: his love addiction/idealization he still posts all over FB... .sad for a guy in his mid 30s. Add to that his pattern of unstable relationships, very poor self image (despite being very intelligent), his severe moodiness... .and it's a sure bet. Her younger sister, while not as emotionally disregulated as my ex, displays some traits, just not the triggered bouts of anger. The younger kids seem ok.

With that, I conclude that there is probably some genetic component to it, which makes me fear for my son, who at 3 I can see takes after his mother more in personality. Luckily, he has a good heart. I will have to watch him like a hawk for a long time.

Its funny you talk about cheating.  My exes father had an affair with her mothers sister (her aunt) when she was a child.  He cheated on his mother many times according to her.  You would think that she would recognize the pain it caused her mother and would never consider cheating on someone.  NOT!

That is why the cheating came out of left field from my POV. But then I have a normally developed sense of empathy. I "forced" mine to tell her mother what she had done. She would have kept it a secret if I had not found out, though several of my friends guessed it (I was oblivious). In moments of clarity, she admitted that she became like her father and hated herself for it (again, all about her). She did again last night tell me that she was sorry. Now that she has a "taste" for it, it will be easier if she feels trapped and triggered again. Let that be someone else's problem now.

[DownandOut]

I, too, believed that cheating was completely out of the question in our relationship. She begged me not to hurt her (during the times she thought I was flirting with someone else), she hated cheaters, she hated liars and she hated phonies; sad that she was all three. It definitely came out of nowhere I could have never imagined her cheating on me. Although a  that I ignored was when she told me that she had a bf when we met up for coffee during our time apart. She never mentioned a bf when we met, only when we recycled the third and final time. She insisted that she felt extremely guilty about it, which may or may not be true, but that there was obviously something wrong in her relationship that would make her do that. Obviously! Must be the same excuse she gave my replacement who she had on the back burner until she forced me to break up with her.

[Turkish]

I, too, believed that cheating was completely out of the question in our relationship. She begged me not to hurt her (during the times she thought I was flirting with someone else), she hated cheaters, she hated liars and she hated phonies; sad that she was all three. It definitely came out of nowhere I could have never imagined her cheating on me. Although a  that I ignored was when she told me that she had a bf when we met up for coffee during our time apart. She never mentioned a bf when we met, only when we recycled the third and final time. She insisted that she felt extremely guilty about it, which may or may not be true, but that there was obviously something wrong in her relationship that would make her do that. Obviously! Must be the same excuse she gave my replacement who she had on the back burner until she forced me to break up with her.

Yes. Of course it's our fault that they cheated. You and I know that cheating has ultimately nothing to do with us, and everything about them. I'm glad I realized this early, though I still struggle on a few things I could have done different to prevent it (letting myself be devalued, increasingly meeting her relationship demands? I would have resented her even more... .thus driving her to cheat anyway).

The biggest red flag was in the first 6 months of our relationship when things weren't going well for us and she contacted the previous bf, the Love Of Her Life, I call him, and started texting and emailing him. She let me know all of this. I considered it a form of cheating, the things they were talking about, but I let the devaluation continue for a while. Some time after that, she cut it off. Showed me she deleted their secret joint email account and all that. After that, I felt when she finally let him go and turned fully to me.

She and I had the most mature relationship she will ever have, due to having kids together, something she physically fixed about her so she won't have more. So no secret email accounts... .or any of that teenage, puppy-love BS. I'm a freaking adult!

[Waifed]

My ex did take full responsibility for cheating on me and cried for 2 days straight. THEN, at the end of Day 2 I WAS TORTURING HER BY BRINGING IT UP.

[LA4610]

i have been thinking about the whole mother BPD relationship too. it really makes alot of sense, but i am curious as to the role the father plays. i know in my BPD's story, the father cheated on the mother and then remarried and died of health problems at an early age. my ex was like 16 at the time. she adored her father (prob bc her mother had BPD and he was normal). did the father cheat and remarry bc he couldn't stand the mom with BPD? are the abusive and alcoholic fathers that way bc the mothers drive them mad? idk, but to me these are interesting questions.

[maxen]

here's my amateur take on my stbxw's parents. her mother is an impossible manipulator and queen, who is certainly juvenile (approaching 70 she still speaks in baby language sometimes) and may be BPD, but i don't know that. however, her father is imo an abdicator: i have never seen him intervene in his children's lives or have a moral conversation with them. he is also in thrall to his wife, who is sometimes (or more than sometimes) awful to him. it appears to me that growing up the w was overwhelmed by her appalling mother and got no protection or even proper attention from her father, who was the public face of a family in the public light.

and this was how i interpreted habits that i now see are the result of BPD: the stbxw was irresponsible, thinks of honesty as a sometimes thing with little moral value in itself, tried to treat me as a servant more than a partner. in other words, reproducing the reactionary gender relations of her parents, where men are long-suffering and responsible and women are bags of hormones. part of why i gave in to frustration with her is that viewed this way, the habits could be changed. viewed as BPD, they can't.

[LA4610]

" in other words, reproducing the reactionary gender relations of her parents, where men are long-suffering and responsible and women are bags of hormones "

that is my take on it too. the suffering male will either cheat or abuse drugs/alcohol or become subservient. of course, all situations are different, but i think the majority of the time this holds true. it begins as AN ENFANT. that is why their behavior can't be changed.

[DownandOut]

i have been thinking about the whole mother BPD relationship too. it really makes alot of sense, but i am curious as to the role the father plays. i know in my BPD's story, the father cheated on the mother and then remarried and died of health problems at an early age. my ex was like 16 at the time. she adored her father (prob bc her mother had BPD and he was normal). did the father cheat and remarry bc he couldn't stand the mom with BPD? are the abusive and alcoholic fathers that way bc the mothers drive them mad? idk, but to me these are interesting questions.

That's an interesting point. I was under the impression that the mother was a sweet lady and that the dad did her wrong. While I'm not, by any means, saying that his cheating was justified because it wasn't; however, after spending time with the father I do believe that the father's transgressions may have been precipitated by the mother's behavior and/or personality. I guess the father was more himself around me, while the mother seemed to be somewhat reserved. I guess I'll never know, but it's an interesting thought/

[Turkish]

i have been thinking about the whole mother BPD relationship too. it really makes alot of sense, but i am curious as to the role the father plays. i know in my BPD's story, the father cheated on the mother and then remarried and died of health problems at an early age. my ex was like 16 at the time. she adored her father (prob bc her mother had BPD and he was normal). did the father cheat and remarry bc he couldn't stand the mom with BPD? are the abusive and alcoholic fathers that way bc the mothers drive them mad? idk, but to me these are interesting questions.

That's an interesting point. I was under the impression that the mother was a sweet lady and that the dad did her wrong. While I'm not, by any means, saying that his cheating was justified because it wasn't; however, after spending time with the father I do believe that the father's transgressions may have been precipitated by the mother's behavior and/or personality. I guess the father was more himself around me, while the mother seemed to be somewhat reserved. I guess I'll never know, but it's an interesting thought/

I see mine's mother as the co-dependent, long-suffering enabler. A lot of this has to do with their culture. So it is weird that their eldest daughter took on traits from both: co-dependant from her mother--- which she denied when I pointed it out to her once---, abusive and cheating like her father.

Even though life was very tough being raised by a single mother who had severe depression and some BPD traits, sometimes I think it was better to never have had a father--- the other parent whom I realize could have filled the role of being abused rather than me. I was able to integrate that side of my personality by logic, rather than influence. My Caretaker/co-dependant personality, however, developed as a survival/defense mechanism from dodging an angry mother. I have a lot of work to do on that, since I swear to never do what I just did again. I already feel those tendencies circling within me... .like I could easily find another waif, that I even want to  . The fact of my children will help keep me grounded. They don't need another mother, since they have one, and I certainly don't need another Child!

[DownandOut]

i have been thinking about the whole mother BPD relationship too. it really makes alot of sense, but i am curious as to the role the father plays. i know in my BPD's story, the father cheated on the mother and then remarried and died of health problems at an early age. my ex was like 16 at the time. she adored her father (prob bc her mother had BPD and he was normal). did the father cheat and remarry bc he couldn't stand the mom with BPD? are the abusive and alcoholic fathers that way bc the mothers drive them mad? idk, but to me these are interesting questions.

That's an interesting point. I was under the impression that the mother was a sweet lady and that the dad did her wrong. While I'm not, by any means, saying that his cheating was justified because it wasn't; however, after spending time with the father I do believe that the father's transgressions may have been precipitated by the mother's behavior and/or personality. I guess the father was more himself around me, while the mother seemed to be somewhat reserved. I guess I'll never know, but it's an interesting thought/

I see mine's mother as the co-dependent, long-suffering enabler. A lot of this has to do with their culture. So it is weird that their eldest daughter took on traits from both: co-dependant from her mother--- which she denied when I pointed it out to her once---, abusive and cheating like her father.

Even though life was very tough being raised by a single mother who had severe depression and some BPD traits, sometimes I think it was better to never have had a father--- the other parent whom I realize could have filled the role of being abused rather than me. I was able to integrate that side of my personality by logic, rather than influence. My Caretaker/co-dependant personality, however, developed as a survival/defense mechanism from dodging an angry mother. I have a lot of work to do on that, since I swear to never do what I just did again. I already feel those tendencies circling within me... .like I could easily find another waif, that I even want to  . The fact of my children will help keep me grounded. They don't need another mother, since they have one, and I certainly don't need another Child!

Mine was from a culture where the type of marriage dynamic you described is also the norm. She swore that she wouldn't marry someone from her culture, but the replacement is of course. You can't believe anything they say, only what we see with our own eyes is the truth. I actually have found another waif, definitely not BPD, but in need of some serious soul-searching and I'm finding it hard to break it off with her. She is recently divorced from a NPD and I don't have the heart to break hers again. I've set boundaries though and she's been respecting them so I guess the comfort of having someone around doesn't hurt as long as it doesn't hurt her.

[Turkish]

I see mine's mother as the co-dependent, long-suffering enabler. A lot of this has to do with their culture. So it is weird that their eldest daughter took on traits from both: co-dependant from her mother--- which she denied when I pointed it out to her once---, abusive and cheating like her father.

Mine was from a culture where the type of marriage dynamic you described is also the norm. She swore that she wouldn't marry someone from her culture, but the replacement is of course. You can't believe anything they say, only what we see with our own eyes is the truth. I actually have found another waif, definitely not BPD, but in need of some serious soul-searching and I'm finding it hard to break it off with her. She is recently divorced from a NPD and I don't have the heart to break hers again. I've set boundaries though and she's been respecting them so I guess the comfort of having someone around doesn't hurt as long as it doesn't hurt her.

Probably the same culture. There, behaviors don't qualify as PDs. For immigrants who come to more free countries... .it must be hard to see both sides and not develop something, though not all families are like that.

[LA4610]

on the subject of culture, my ex was african american and i am caucasian. we live in the DEEP SOUTH. the way life is down here, some of you from other states would not believe until you saw in. very racist and segregated.

i am very curious as the effects that slavery has had on the african american population and BPD. the things owners did were horrible... .turning the wives against husbands, influencing relationships so that the mother and son would be very close and the mother and daughter distant. imo this still impacts our society today and it is also is a recipe for BPD, especially with the women.

[nevaeh]

I have put a lot of thought into this subject over the years.

As I met my H 23 years ago and witnessed interactions between him and his mother I came to the conclusion that they had a very strange relationship.  Very much up and down.  He would call and talk to her on the phone for 2-3 hours but might spend an hour of that arguing with her/yelling at her, telling her she's stupid and calling her names (he has actually called her a *itch and a *unt).  I could never figure out why, if he hated her so much, that he would call and talk to her on the phone for hours?  I have always had a great relationship with my mom and we never talked that much!  It was just weird.

Then when I would go visit his parents his mom would always have "temper tantrums" and start throwing things around the house and yelling at the kids.  I figured out where he got it after being around her for a short amount of time.  Most of the time she was nice and I could sit and visit with her and didn't have any issues.  After H and I were married for a couple of years and his BPD elevated, I began to really resent his mother for how she was and how she (likely) treated them as kids.  It became pretty obvious that she had, at a minimum, emotionally abused her children and I had my suspicions that they were physically abused as well.  I got to the point that I could barely talk to MIL because I was so bitter towards her.  This is before I knew anything about BPD.  Regardless, I thought I had figured out that his mom was the root of all of his problems and that she was to blame for who he was.

H talked to his dad rarely.  They might talk for a few minutes on the phone after H had talked to his mom for an hour or two.  6 years ago, H's dad got cancer and they started talking more and seemed to develop more closeness.  H's dad died about 5 years ago.  I loved his dad.  He was very sweet, unassuming, calm, happy, always joking around, everyone loved him.

However, after FIL was gone, I started finding out that he had been very similar to my H.  He would be perfectly fine one minute and then would all of a sudden rage over the smallest thing.  I found this out from my BIL when confiding in him about H's crazy behavior (as well as their sister's behavior, who also exhibits signs of BPD).  As I got to thinking about it, I began to wonder seriously if FIL was actually the main source of the problems in their family.  There were SO many parallels between H and FIL.  FIL was always VERY hard on H - always bossing him around and controlling his every move, etc.  H and FIL lose temper over small things.  H and FIL are loved by others in the community because outwardly they are always giving of their time and they are funny/always joking around.  Both have a high need to save all of their money and both exert a lot of control over their wives (yes, me) regarding spending of money (as in, no matter what I do, I'm spending too much money on things we don't need). 

Anyway, after thinking a lot about all of these factors over the years, I have come to the conclusion that while MIL had some issues I wonder if her issues were more bred of frustration about her situation with FIL.  She didn't have a job so she WAS completely controlled by him.  I think perhaps that she was not emotionally equipped to help her kids deal with FIL's potential BPD behavior so the kids were lost, so to speak.  After FIL passed away, MIL seems to be happier.  Still gets into arguments with H, but not as frequent and when they do get into an argument it seems to be because H is trying to make decisions for her or to try and exert control over her decisions.  MIL seems to have very bad reactions when her kids try and tell her what to do.  I imagine that might be because she was controlled for so long?  Not sure but it kind of makes sense to me.

I often wish I could go back in time to see how H was raised and maybe where his problems started.

[Findingmysong723]

My Ex's Dad was an alcoholic and was abusive to his Mom, which he saw this as a young boy. I think his Dad was also abusive to his oldest brother. My ex is very close to his Mom, she helped him get his job, she had worked at the place for awhile. I think his Mom worries about him, because of his past alcohol/drug problems, and depression etc, which of course is understandable. He also admitted that he believes she gives him money and things for is pets because she feels bad that he isn't married or has kids like the rest of his brothers. My Ex boyfriend told me that his Mom and him are so much a like, there like the same person... .I know red flag! He also mentioned that his Mom would sometimes come into his room to get away from his abusive Dad, so I think he was an emotional crutch for his Mom. I know hindsight is 20/20 and I'm sure if she could change how she acted, she would. However, it's my own pop psychology that this messed him up emotionally.

When we first met, on our first date he told me that decided to forgive his Dad for himself so he could move on and have a better life. I know that his Mom didn't talk to his Dad for years, he also didn't talk to his Dad for years. We spent a lot of time with his Dad, went out to eat and just hung out at his place. I admit I liked him, but of course I hated what kind of person he was in the past! My Ex was never physically abusive but he was emotionally and verbally. So,  in some ways he has become like his Dad, he was a bully and I'm sure it's the worse thing for him to become... .the very person he was scared of as a child! I remember him saying that it was bad how he was treating me, but it was worse that I would accept that behavior or something like that... .that's a ___in cop out to blame the victim! Makes me think that as much as he felt that his Dad shouldn't of treated his Mom the way he did, there probably was a part of him that blamed her for allowing the abuse. He probably felt like his Mom should of stood up for herself, him and his brothers, which didn't happen soon enough!

I did stand up for myself but not enough, however it's a shame that I had to stand up for myself with my boyfriend! However, I stood up for myself when I refused to be friends or stay in contact with someone who treated me like that whether he meant to or not!

[DownandOut]

A weird dynamic in my relationship with my uBPDexgf was that she actually told me that I had some of her mother's traits. I wonder if the whole father-daughter relationship and mother-daughter relationship had anything to do with why she chose me, someone with similar traits as her mother. It is all so messed up and I would do anything to just be able to wrap my head around some of it.

[MammaMia]

Finding

I think genetics and environment play a role in behavior. My exh was alcoholic and emotionally abusive.  He hated his mother and women in general.  My dBPDs witnessed the way he treated females and has grown up to feel exactly the same way his father did.

Oddly enough, the women in both of their lives have been loving and supportive.  The reward is to be treated with contempt and anger.

Even though they may try to prove they are not like their fathers, I think they are hardwired to do the opposite which is very sad and frustrating.

[Findingmysong723]

 MammaMia,

I agree, the environment he grew up in has made him the man he is today. He grew up in chaos and I believe he is more comfortable with it, which was the opposite of what I was brought up with. My Ex wasn't comfortable with quiet, it seemed to make him uneasy. I wouldn't say he hated women, but I do know that he would comment on woman on television that were treating their men badly and seem to get more upset than I thought was needed. My Ex was pretty sensitive and  seemed to be more comfortable with women, but I do agree there was probably some animosity toward women for rejecting or hurting him in the past! His oldest brother also had issues with drinking and drugs but his other oldest brother went into the military and seems to have his life together. His brother is married and has two great kids, I enjoyed getting to know them while I was dating their uncle... .I miss them sometimes. It's funny because my Ex is so sensitive etc, you wouldn't think that he would of treated me the way he did... .but I think his sensitivity to life is what made him react that way. Maybe one day my Ex will look in the mirror and see what he has become and do something to change it. He stopped drinking but he needs to work on what made him use alcohol to cope in the first place!

[Oliolioxenfree]

I noticed that a lot of the research on the causes of BPD are with regard to having a BPD mother. My uBPDexgf's mother was no cup of tea and definitely appeared to be a waif in her own respect, however, if a "person who suffers under his perversion bears within himself his mother's rejection, and thus he flaunts his per-version, in order to get others to reject him, too, all the time—so reexternalizing the rejecting mother" can the same be true for the father. My uBPDexgf's father is an alcoholic womanizer. When she was 10, her father left her mother for the woman he cheated with and she did not have a good relationship with her father until her early adult years. Although the relationship is more stable now, it's hard to believe that the early years didn't have a profound effect on her life. Her father abandoned her and her siblings and maybe the quote above can be applied to her relationship with men in the present day. So I'm asking if anyone has any information about the father's relationship causing or at least contributing to the BPD.

My BPDexbf had a father who was emotionally abusive towards his mother.  And most likely towards him as well.  At one point he was even emotionally abusice and rude towards me.  I witnessed several unsettling events where his father was unbelievably terrible towards his mother who basically sat back and quietly took the abuse.  The mother played a martyr role and always seemed a kind quiet victim.

His only other sibling was a younger brother who was an alcoholic and had severe substance issues,  he also had extreme social awkwardness. 

My ex , I believe was at some point early on a victim of mile station or abuse by a male figure just by his bizarre behavior and several questionable sexual experiences with his peers early in his childhood and teen years. He also exhibited identity disturbances and frequently questioned his sexuality.

[GreenMango]

Something that a parents does can lasting effects on kids.

This goes both ways.

Something that maybe of interest is talk about how our own parents and upbringing primed - or made a key for a BPD lock?