She wants to take the kids and move out of state

[jmrslc]

Latest threat (promise).  She is petitioning the courts to allow her to move out of state with my s2.5 & s10months.  She is from another state originally, and was traveling for work when we met.  I have lived here for 25 years.  She lived here for 3 years before our son was born.

My attorney says it is unlikely the courts will allow her to leave the state, but there are no guarantees.  She says that the courts generally want to keep up the frequent contact and parenting time and that her moving out of state isn't aligned with that.

This is creating MAJOR emotional stress and angst for me.

I put together a proposed separation agreement.  She isn't even going to read it (she says she is instructing her attorney to just flat out refuse it).

<sigh>   Emotionally not doing so hot this morning... .

[ForeverDad]

Another reason you're going to need an experienced and perceptive custody evaluator most likely.  A quality evaluation ought to show who is the more stable and better parent for parental responsibility.

If you agree to having minority time and then she wants to depart, you'd be facing a greater uphill struggle than if you were seeking equal time, majority time or get a trained and experienced professional involved.  IMO.

As someone else wrote recently, a parent can demand anything and everything, it doesn't mean they'll get it.

[livednlearned]

Few judges would let her move out of state. Not now. Especially if you contest it.

In my state, there are 10 criteria that they consider when granting a move. Find out what the criteria is in your state -- she probably does not meet the criteria, which is why your L is saying it's unlikely. And of course there are no guarantees. There are never any guarantees. That's standard answering procedures for any situation in which a judge is involved. But no guarantees does not mean it's likely to happen.

Criteria might include whether she already has a job lined up, the cost of living there vs here, the comparability of the school systems, the relationship between the kids and the dad, the dad's ability to travel, whether the parent moving has family in the new location, etc.

Your ex will have to make a good case for why she should be able to move. If she says it's because she wants to be closer to family, the judge will say, "The father is family." If she says she needs more help with two young kids, the judge will say, "Grant more time with the dad."

If she says she needs to move where the jobs are better, that will tell the judge she is willing to work. If she says she wants to move to where cost of living is lower, the judge will tell her that child support will also adjust.

If she plays this card, it could end up badly for her. Everything she testifies will become testimony that your L can build on for any future hearings.

Your ex is displaying all the signs of parental alienation -- you need to read Divorce Poison and get ready. Your kids are young enough that you can offset it, but start now. Start learning about validation. It's not some trendy child rearing thing, it's at the heart of all the drama you and everyone else here experiences. Your kids need to learn this young so you'll be able to hold onto them.

[eyvindr]

Hi jmrslc --

Sorry to hear you're going through this. Few things harder than having an ex use kids as leverage for some selfish motive.

I write because your post took me back many years when I was going through my divorce from my ex-wife, who was uBPD. At the time, our son was 2 yrs old, and we didn't have a formal custody agreement yet, as the divorce wasn't yet final. We were doing pretty much the joint custody thing on our own, b/c we still lived close enough to each other, and our child wasn't old enough to be in school yet. We'd "agreed" (as much as it's possible to establish a stable agreement with a pwBPD) to keep it 50/50 as much as possible... .though I spent far more time with my son than she did, in the end -- which was fine with me, as I my goal was from the time we separated was primary custody.

So, my ex called me during one of my scheduled weekends and informed me that she intended to move back to her home state 900 miles away the following week -- I said, "great! -- hope that works out for you." She informed me that she intended to take our son, and I said, "That's not going to happen." She told me her mind was made up, and that there wasn't anything I could do about it. I simply didn't return my son to her on Sunday as was the norm. She actually called the police on me, claiming I'd "kidnapped" our son -- which was pretty comical, really. A state trooper showed up at my office, asked me to identify myself, confirmed that I was my son's father, asked where he was and whether there was any problem with him returning to my ex -- I explained simply, no, provided she doesn't move, and he left. Typical PDI-driven attack strategy -- impulsive, chaotic and completely ineffective.

Remember -- they specialize in confusion, and they rely on triggering us emotionally. The threats they make are very often completely made up -- though they have a knack for making them sound very real. I've felt at times like I was dealing with a little kid playing war -- they act like they're some big bad army, when they're running around throwing acorns.

livedandlearned offers some sound advice -- I wish I'd have known about the book he mentions back when I was going through my divorce (if it had even been written back then). I'm not an attorney, but I think the bottomline questions in your case are:

• Are you and your ex still married? (assuming you were)



• Is the divorce final? (assuming you sought one)



• Do you have a formal custody agreement in place?

Good luck and hang in there.

e.

[ForeverDad]

If you already have a case started, which I'm sure you do, then neither parent is to change the status quo except by court order or perhaps written agreement.

While you can't physically 'block' her from any action such as leaving, if she does, then your lawyer should file obstruction or fleeing motion after your first missed parenting time, and seek temp custody then as well.  As she is a mother with a small child, you may not get custody, but it puts it on the record that you believe you are the one most stable and cooperative to have major decision-making at the very least.  Imagine you having custody but her still having majority parenting time.  Stranger things have happened.

And if Residential Parent for School Purposes gets discussed, seek that too.  Though the kids aren't in school yet, in a few years they will be, best to get that issue dealt with sooner rather than later.  However, if you ever settle and she won't agree for you to be RPfSP, leave that open, maybe in a couple years when it becomes an issue you will have enough documentation of her behaviors, obstruction and lack of sharing that you would have a better case then.

Frankly, though, I doubt a settlement would be very much in your favor, most pwBPD are still far too entitled early in a case.  Probably best to make your case before the judge and let the judge make a decent order.  Strange as it sounds, a court order very likely could have better terms than a settlement.

[jmrslc]

Thanks for the responses. 

As one can imagine, this has me pretty spun up.  She firmly believes in her mind that the kids will be better off around her extended family than around me (the father).

It is funny that this was triggered by two things (from what I can see):

a) I put together a proposed parenting plan (she requested me too - and is now mad that I spent the time/effort/money as we should have done it on our own <sigh> -- we tried, it didn't work).  She didn't like the plan, although it was "extremely generous" from my Ls perspective.

b) She had a crisis today and didn't have anyone to turn to (despite my family still being willing to help her EVERY step of the way -- she has cut them off).

Divorce is in process, next hearing is late Jan.  I can't imagine not seeing my young boys regularly and frequently.  That would devastate me.  I don't want to be a one a month or once a quarter dad with just summers.

[livednlearned]

Unfortunately, this is likely a sign of things to come. That's why FD is encouraging you to focus on a judge's ruling, instead of trying to negotiate with your ex. She is going to move the goal post every time. Every time.

My ex demonstrates amazing ingenuity at figuring out new ways to move the goal post, even when the court ordered him not to.

I dunno. I guess they can't help it. 

[eyvindr]

ForeverDad -- solid advice.

[ForeverDad]

Consider any and all rejected offers as Expired, Null and Void.  Don't let her come back later, when she is backed into a corner and desperate, and try to get you to agree to one of them.  Your lawyer said they were too generous?  Then listen to your lawyer.  When in court don't refer to the offers as options you would like.  State that you realize those offers are unworkable, you've realized you can't afford to be generous to her with your parenting time since she has repeatedly shown she cannot or will not share and that you expect her repeated obstructions to continue.  Therefore you require more time to be an effective and meaningful father.  With her wanting to move already (you know it is to obstruct but court my decline to see that aspect) you really, really need some way to have leverage, seeking equal time might be one way.

[momtara]

With kids that young, I hope they won't do that.  Don't feel intimidated, but I can see why that prospect is stressful.  Fight!

[jmrslc]

Thanks all.  Everything else aside (property, money, etc.), I am really distraught about the prospect of my kids moving across the country.  It sounds like it is a real possibility... .

Beyond sick to my stomach --

[livednlearned]

It sounds like it is a real possibility... .

According to who?

[momtara]

The fact that she has family out there to help her and the kids is slightly better for her in making her case than if she was just taking off to go where she knows no one.  However, courts are going to consider contact with the father as more important than contact with relatives - as long as you want to be in their lives.  Which you clearly want to be.  What also works in your favor is that you are offering her parenting plans.  That matters a lot to a judge, the fact that you want to resolve this in a fair, kind way without really involving the courts.  I know this is stressful, but courts these days want both parents involved (even if one is psycho) and as long as you don't do anything terrible, your lawyer should be able to make a good case.  Hold on to all the documentation.  

[livednlearned]

The fact that she has family out there to help her and the kids is slightly better for her than if she was just taking off to go where she knows no one.  However, courts are going to consider contact with the father as more important than contact with a bunch of relatives - as long as you want to be in their lives.  Which you clearly want to be.  What also works in your favor is that you are offering her parenting plans.  That matters a lot to a judge, the fact that you want to resolve this in a fair, kind way without really involving the courts.  I know this is stressful, but courts these days want both parents involved (even if one is psycho) and as long as you don't do anything terrible, your lawyer should be able to make a good case.  Hold on to all the documentation. 

And every family court judge knows that people are crazy right after a divorce, even people who aren't crazy. They aren't going to allow her to move right now. She is not destitute. You are a loving father.

She's renting space in your head. She knows your triggers. She's getting exactly the reaction she wants.

[DreamGirl]

If it helps... .

My husband's BPDex-wife threatened this about 52 times during the first part of their divorce. So much that the temporary orders specifically stated no one was to remove the children from the state without the other's permission.

Does she have employment in the other state?

A residence?

Is she employed where you are now?

[jmrslc]

She works in a field where she can get a job easily.  She is apparently lining up a place to live too... .

I really hope there isn't a real possibility of her being able to move.  That would destroy me at this point .  My boys are too young to only visit as time/money permits vs. frequent and persistent contact... .

[ForeverDad]

My thoughts... .

If there is a court case now and she leaves taking the children agaisnt court ordered schedule and without prior court approval, you can file (after your first missed parenting exchange) for her fleeing or kidnapping the children or simple Contempt of Court for failing to follow the parenting schedule.  That is why it is crucial you NEVER give any tentative approval or have negotiations where her departing would be an option, not even approval for her to take the kids on your parenting time while she is away seeking housing or employment in another state.  Properly handled vacation notice, that's fine, but not so she is enabled to do things that help her move.  (Yes, she can do it on her own time, but not yours.)

If you are close to making a deal or settlement, the judge is more likely to make a decision sooner without knowing much about her ability or willingness to share parenting.  The judge will *assume* there are no major issues or obstructions.

If you seek a quality Custody Evaluation by an experienced professional then the judge will wait for it to be completed before deciding whether to allow her to move away.  Mine was about $3500 and took about 5 months, most are $5K-$10K and can anywhere from 3 months to a year.  Hint, hint, that's more time for you to enjoy the court's order for regular parenting time, more time for the evaluator and court to get a glimpse of her obstinacy, entitlement and obstruction.  Meanwhile, since you just wrote she can find employment in her field almost anywhere, she can keep working locally.

My thoughts continued... .she seems to be in control of this case.  Likely that's somewhat out of your hands, but it sounds like you're reacting defensively to her every new idea, you haven't found a strategy yet?  While it's a fact much of your case is handled in a defensive mode, you still need an assertive strategy.  What is your lawyer's strategy to keep her here or at the least delay her from leaving?  Remember, the long term goal is not a Holding Action, it's to secure your parenting and make it meaningful for your children.