Do they remember raging / dysregulating?

[Hope26]

Hi Everyone,

I am just wondering if it is normal (or should I say 'typical' for the pwBPD to not seem to even remember their periods of dysregulation that result in 'raging' behavior.  Because if they don't ever acknowledge it, can there be hope for improvement?  My uBPDh doesn't seem to always even remember the raging episodes, while I am left feeling so hurt and shaken.  When he is good he is very good, but if I say anything to remind him of the negative episodes, he seems to have a memory lapse.  Also, external stresses seem to be a huge factory in the frequency of the episodes.  Even things that wouldn't be stressful to most of us at all, like a guided vacation tour where you have to follow the scheduling and directional requirements of another, for the harmony of the group.  I guess difficulty coping with any kind of a stress situation is part of the BPD syndrome? When I pointed out to him that he had been constantly raging on that trip and it had been very difficult, he acted shocked and disbelieving. Sorry to be asking so many questions, but I feel the more I learn the better I'll be able to cope.  This board has already helped tremendously with my peace of mind.  Thanks to you all!

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[Hope26]

P.S.  I meant to say 'huge factor' not 'huge factory'.  (Regarding external stresses).

[Diana82]

Hi Hope...

In my recent experience... this girl I strongly suspect has BPD feels guilty and is apologetic after she has lashed out at me.

Recently she lashed out over text and I was extremely upset.

The next day she told me she was "devastated" she had upset me and that it wasn't her intention.  

She seemed to have calmed down dramatically. Over the next couple of days she kept apologising and saying she didn't mean to react that way and that I apparently have a "knack" for finding her insecurities and make her "act defensively" and not herself.

So... .although she was apologetic and seemed to feel bad, she was also essentially blaming me for her behaviour.

[hergestridge]

My BPD wife says she doesn't remember, but if preassured she admits that she remembers but doesn't like to talk about it.

[Hope26]

Zara, thanks for responding.  That kind of inconsistent behavior sounds all too familiar!

[Diana82]

Hey

I also agree that stressful situations can contribute to raging episodes. One evening this girl (who I should add was an ex lover) had a fight with a friend of hers... claiming the friend created a drama out of nothing and was being rude to her.

And she then tried to get rid of me! started to push me away and tell me I should consider moving on from her.

And when I did say I will leave her alone, she didn't like that and changed and started to miss me!

So I believe that they can't cope with stress and that anything or anyone can trigger them when they are in that stressful situation.

[Hope26]

Hergestridge, that has to be tough too; if she 'doesn't want to talk about it' it seems like that's another way of avoiding trying to get better.

[123Phoebe]

I think a way to counter this is by having our own firm boundaries in place, for when dysregulation rears it's head.  Better if we can skedaddle beforehand, but it's not always possible.

Something that I've had to tell myself is that BPD is bigger than me and it's real.  No matter how much talking about it I do, I'm not going to make it go away.

I can respond to dysregulation by being true to myself and my core values.  While trying not to make the situation worse or dysregulate myself.

It can be a balancing act!

[earthgirl]

Hope26,

My uBPDh remembers most, but not all, of what happens.  If he's really dysregulated, he may not remember specific comments (ironically, they are the most hurtful ones, so of course he doesn't remember them at all and I will remember them forever.)    I don't think he's acting; he owns up to almost everything, but there have been numerous times when he'll say, "I said that?" and the look on his face is one of embarrassment and remorse. 

[montanesa]

I have learned that I can't bring up things he said because he just gets sad and says "This is my fault for talking." He's then depressed for a couple of days and completely uncommunicative. IF he remembers what was said, it seems that he feels no remorse.

I simple "I'm sorry" would really, really help me right now. However, I'm not sure he's ever said sorry.

[waverider]

Clear memory of the dysregulation is not always the road to eliminating it. Repeating past errors is a BPD trait. The ability to learn from consequences, as we can, is not that strong.

The path to improvement is more about recognizing the triggers and situations that may cause problems. Then to learn methods to avert them. By the time it gets to dysregulation mode it is too late. So to focus on the the worse case end result simply reinforces to them they are a failure so why should they try?

Most of this recognition and situation management needs to start with you. Until you can remove yourself from the issues they will not see the it uniquely as theirs to own, and deal with. They will be clouded with projection and denials. It is easier to dump it on you.

[daenarya]

My uBPDbf has alot of memory problems when it comes to anything emotional. Whether it is very high and loving emotions or very low and hurtful things he has said he doesn't remember. I can show him an message on FB that he wrote to me and he will be very confused and say "I said that?" or I can remind him of a conversation we had and he will say "yes that does sound familiar" but has the oddest look on his face as if it is causing him severe pain.  I try not to continue in times like that. I don't want to bring him more pain. Unfortunately for us, we always remember.  I actually find that for myself, him forgetting the wonderful things he says to me and being shocked that he said them hurts more than him not remembering the mean things.  It's like he gives me something amazing and then can take it all away with one sentence.

[Hope26]

I want to thank you all for responding to my questions.  It sounds like Earthgirl, Montanesa, and Daenarya have all had experiences similar to mine.  And apparently our BPDs do have poor memories when it comes to the raging /dysregulating.  Montanesa, what you said about a simple 'I'm sorry' that would go so far toward healing is the flip side of the same problem, I believe.  I can so relate to that, but I guess if they don't remember the behavior to begin with they are not going to be apologetic for it.  And to Waverider and 123Phoebe, thanks for the constructive suggestions; I do realize that's what we're intended to do here, focus on solutions.  As board advisers, you do that very well.  I am going to focus on not making the situation worse next time by JADEing, etc.  As far as preventing the complete dysregulation in the first place, I can't be sure but think I might have prevented a blow-up or two by situation management.  I'll report back the next time there is one; that's the big test for me in whether I'm handling things better.  These days I am trying to visit this board and learn while things are going well, not wait until they blow up in my face.

[waverider]

These days I am trying to visit this board and learn while things are going well, not wait until they blow up in my face.

Being proactive rather than reactive makes the wheels go around a lot smoother

[hergestridge]

Clear memory of the dysregulation is not always the road to eliminating it. Repeating past errors is a BPD trait. The ability to learn from consequences, as we can, is not that strong.

The path to improvement is more about recognizing the triggers and situations that may cause problems. Then to learn methods to avert them. By the time it gets to dysregulation mode it is too late. So to focus on the the worse case end result simply reinforces to them they are a failure so why should they try?

Most of this recognition and situation management needs to start with you. Until you can remove yourself from the issues they will not see the it uniquely as theirs to own, and deal with. They will be clouded with projection and denials. It is easier to dump it on you.

But doesn't mean that the "worst case scenario" never gets talked about at all? That they can lash out again and again without having to face the consequences? Imagine a man that hits his wife. Afterwards he doesn't remember. Everytime she brings it up he starts to dysregulate. Better not talk about the violence and avoid situations that makes him want to hit her?

I know it's a drastic example, but come on!

[HopefulDad]

My BPDw has forgotten key details during her rages.  It's a problem.  She thought *I* flew off the handle for nothing, but rather (1) I indeed got angry, but didn't rage myself and (2) I don't react too well to being called 4-letter words in front of our kids.  Incidents like this where the second item is forgotten have happened too frequently.

[hopesky]

This is an interesting topic for me as it's something I've often wondered about myself.  My wife doesn't seen to have a clear memory of exactly what she did when in a rage.   Most often when attempting to discuss an "event" we can't even get past the part of confirming what actually took place.   One time I printed out texts that were  abusive and I've tried to talk with her about them several times and it's a disaster.  The lack of taking personal responsibility seems to be so strong it's easier to change the memory of the event than accept it- and when confronted with evidence of the event that can't be altered, even more bizzare behavior occurs- she has since gone into my password protected phone and deleted all those texts.  From what I have read on here if they take ownership of the bad behavior then they feel ALL 100% BAD.  Must be a nightmare to live that way.  My wife has so many great qualities and so many people that love her, but it's like she just can't see that.

[Devin6]

From what I have read on here if they take ownership of the bad behavior then they feel ALL 100% BAD.  Must be a nightmare to live that way.  My wife has so many great qualities and so many people that love her, but it's like she just can't see that.

From the way my BPDgf has described how she feels about herself on several occasions what underlies her sense of self is an overwhelming sense of self-loathing which rises under all kinds of stresses. What I've come to understand of the dysfunction of BPD is that those things in a healthy person which support you through stress, through embarrassment, through moments when you feel vulnerable and screwed up, they aren't there in them. They lack a very basic inner strength relating to self worth and identity.

The other thing though that I've started to see is that every pwBPD is different in how the disorder relates to them. My BPDgf will say she's beautiful, she's intelligent, she's going to be successful in her life, all these very positive things, but its like they represent what she wishes to be, or they don't mean enough. What she has reflects on what she lacks. She's gorgeous but her nose is ugly (so she says), so that eats away at her. She's so intelligent that if I even use the word "stupid" in any discussion about politics or science or any other intellectual topic she gets on the verge of breaking up with me. In my BPDgf those things about herself which she DOES acknowledge as being valuable are actually vulnerabilities that trigger typical BPD dysfunctions.

What she has, what she lacks, they're all fodder for the disorder. As for recollecting things about rages... .well in my r/s I've yet to get to a point where we discuss these events as if they're in any way different from typical couple's fights.

[waverider]

Clear memory of the dysregulation is not always the road to eliminating it. Repeating past errors is a BPD trait. The ability to learn from consequences, as we can, is not that strong.

The path to improvement is more about recognizing the triggers and situations that may cause problems. Then to learn methods to avert them. By the time it gets to dysregulation mode it is too late. So to focus on the the worse case end result simply reinforces to them they are a failure so why should they try?

Most of this recognition and situation management needs to start with you. Until you can remove yourself from the issues they will not see the it uniquely as theirs to own, and deal with. They will be clouded with projection and denials. It is easier to dump it on you.

But doesn't mean that the "worst case scenario" never gets talked about at all? That they can lash out again and again without having to face the consequences? Imagine a man that hits his wife. Afterwards he doesn't remember. Everytime she brings it up he starts to dysregulate. Better not talk about the violence and avoid situations that makes him want to hit her?

I know it's a drastic example, but come on!

Worst case scenarios like that need boundaries as consequences, not just talking about. Attempting postmortems after every little conflict will just drag you back into it...

You have every right also to point out that XYZ behavior is unacceptable to you and that you will do ABC if you continue to be exposed to it. Removing yourself from bad behavior is more effective than just talking about it, words have little lasting impact.

[LetMEgoPLS]

IME, the uBPDstbx that I am dealing with does not remember his raging episodes and if I bring them up, he will gaslight and say it was ME and there is no convincing him otherwise.

A great example is about a month ago, we got into a text fight where the told me that he was going to abandon me and all kinds of other (meant to be) hurtful things. Within in minutes, his next reply is, "Hi. How is your day going?" -- wow. This was very eye opening for me. It was like the huge blow up never happened.

[ucmeicu2]

I am just wondering if it is normal (or should I say 'typical' for the pwBPD to not seem to even remember their periods of dysregulation that result in 'raging' behavior.  Because if they don't ever acknowledge it, can there be hope for improvement? 

yes, that is very typical characteristic of BPD, of ragers in general.  it's common to get so overwhelmed by an emotion it "takes over".  i believe it's called dissociation.  everybody dissociates, like when you're driving the car and you realize you don't remember the last few miles b/c you were in deep thought or singing a song.  but pwBPD it happens more frequently and on a deeper level.

as to acknowledging and improving?  as they say in 12 step:  admitting you have a problem is the first step.  since the hallmark of BPD is emotional dysregulation, i think improvement comes primarily from learning the skills taught in DBT.

[HopefulDad]

IME, the uBPDstbx that I am dealing with does not remember his raging episodes and if I bring them up, he will gaslight and say it was ME and there is no convincing him otherwise.

A great example is about a month ago, we got into a text fight where the told me that he was going to abandon me and all kinds of other (meant to be) hurtful things. Within in minutes, his next reply is, "Hi. How is your day going?" -- wow. This was very eye opening for me. It was like the huge blow up never happened.

One nice thing about when you have an iFight via text or email is that you have a record of what was said.  If your pwBPD tries to deny it later during discussion, you can break it out.  I have.  And my BPDw did NOT like that, but you know what?  Tough feces.  You said/wrote it, then own it.  :)on't deny it.  :)on't pretend it didn't happen.  :)on't say you said something else.  :)on't accuse me of changing the events to suit my needs.

I think rooted in the anger of bring up the texts and emails is the shame of revisiting their behavior, their hurtful words... .deep down they *do* know they were wrong, but can't bear having to own it.  So they fight back.  Hard.

[ucmeicu2]

A great example is about a month ago, we got into a text fight where the told me that he was going to abandon me and all kinds of other (meant to be) hurtful things. Within in minutes, his next reply is, "Hi. How is your day going?" -- wow. This was very eye opening for me. It was like the huge blow up never happened.

nod nod.  with my xBPDgf, this was so prevalent that i began to wonder if she had multiple personalities.  i didn't stick around long enough to find out, tho.

has anybody else wondered that about their pwBPD?  i wonder how often it's actually the case... .

[LetMEgoPLS]

IME, the uBPDstbx that I am dealing with does not remember his raging episodes and if I bring them up, he will gaslight and say it was ME and there is no convincing him otherwise.

A great example is about a month ago, we got into a text fight where the told me that he was going to abandon me and all kinds of other (meant to be) hurtful things. Within in minutes, his next reply is, "Hi. How is your day going?" -- wow. This was very eye opening for me. It was like the huge blow up never happened.

One nice thing about when you have an iFight via text or email is that you have a record of what was said.  If your pwBPD tries to deny it later during discussion, you can break it out.  I have.  And my BPDw did NOT like that, but you know what?  Tough feces.  You said/wrote it, then own it.  :)on't deny it.  :)on't pretend it didn't happen.  :)on't say you said something else.  :)on't accuse me of changing the events to suit my needs.

I think rooted in the anger of bring up the texts and emails is the shame of revisiting their behavior, their hurtful words... .deep down they *do* know they were wrong, but can't bear having to own it.  So they fight back.  Hard.

He KNOWS what he says is wrong & vicious, so he's taken to snatching my phone -- I originally thought that it was for snooping, but the deletes the thread of messages between him and I, so I've started taking screen prints to preserve the messages. He'd never subject himself to re-reading these conversations, because that would mess up his, it's not ME, it's YOU defense.

[HopefulDad]

IME, the uBPDstbx that I am dealing with does not remember his raging episodes and if I bring them up, he will gaslight and say it was ME and there is no convincing him otherwise.

A great example is about a month ago, we got into a text fight where the told me that he was going to abandon me and all kinds of other (meant to be) hurtful things. Within in minutes, his next reply is, "Hi. How is your day going?" -- wow. This was very eye opening for me. It was like the huge blow up never happened.

One nice thing about when you have an iFight via text or email is that you have a record of what was said.  If your pwBPD tries to deny it later during discussion, you can break it out.  I have.  And my BPDw did NOT like that, but you know what?  Tough feces.  You said/wrote it, then own it.  :)on't deny it.  :)on't pretend it didn't happen.  :)on't say you said something else.  :)on't accuse me of changing the events to suit my needs.

I think rooted in the anger of bring up the texts and emails is the shame of revisiting their behavior, their hurtful words... .deep down they *do* know they were wrong, but can't bear having to own it.  So they fight back.  Hard.

He KNOWS what he says is wrong & vicious, so he's taken to snatching my phone -- I originally thought that it was for snooping, but the deletes the thread of messages between him and I, so I've started taking screen prints to preserve the messages. He'd never subject himself to re-reading these conversations, because that would mess up his, it's not ME, it's YOU defense.

Set a firm boundary: Don't touch my phone.  My BPDw and I have a clear understanding on this and any accounts (email, facebook).

[LetMEgoPLS]

IME, the uBPDstbx that I am dealing with does not remember his raging episodes and if I bring them up, he will gaslight and say it was ME and there is no convincing him otherwise.

A great example is about a month ago, we got into a text fight where the told me that he was going to abandon me and all kinds of other (meant to be) hurtful things. Within in minutes, his next reply is, "Hi. How is your day going?" -- wow. This was very eye opening for me. It was like the huge blow up never happened.

One nice thing about when you have an iFight via text or email is that you have a record of what was said.  If your pwBPD tries to deny it later during discussion, you can break it out.  I have.  And my BPDw did NOT like that, but you know what?  Tough feces.  You said/wrote it, then own it.  :)on't deny it.  :)on't pretend it didn't happen.  :)on't say you said something else.  :)on't accuse me of changing the events to suit my needs.

I think rooted in the anger of bring up the texts and emails is the shame of revisiting their behavior, their hurtful words... .deep down they *do* know they were wrong, but can't bear having to own it.  So they fight back.  Hard.

He KNOWS what he says is wrong & vicious, so he's taken to snatching my phone -- I originally thought that it was for snooping, but the deletes the thread of messages between him and I, so I've started taking screen prints to preserve the messages. He'd never subject himself to re-reading these conversations, because that would mess up his, it's not ME, it's YOU defense.

Set a firm boundary: Don't touch my phone.  My BPDw and I have a clear understanding on this and any accounts (email, facebook).

We DO have that boundary -- in fact, it was HIS rule that I adopted for myself. I've upgraded to an iPhone 5S for the fingerprint recognition technology so that it cannot be accessed without my finger (as far as he knows), but once in awhile (maybe ONCE since I've upgraded), he catches me off guard and grabs it before I can lock it, but I've learned to keep my finger on the top lock button at all times when he is around. He used to look over my shoulder to learn my password. No more of that.

Not a very good way to live, but the days are numbered (I know, wrong board for someone who is planning their escape, but wanted to share my experience with the memory of rages).

[Seashells]

IME, the uBPDstbx that I am dealing with does not remember his raging episodes and if I bring them up, he will gaslight and say it was ME and there is no convincing him otherwise.

A great example is about a month ago, we got into a text fight where the told me that he was going to abandon me and all kinds of other (meant to be) hurtful things. Within in minutes, his next reply is, "Hi. How is your day going?" -- wow. This was very eye opening for me. It was like the huge blow up never happened.

One nice thing about when you have an iFight via text or email is that you have a record of what was said.  If your pwBPD tries to deny it later during discussion, you can break it out.  I have.  And my BPDw did NOT like that, but you know what?  Tough feces.  You said/wrote it, then own it.  :)on't deny it.  :)on't pretend it didn't happen.  :)on't say you said something else.  :)on't accuse me of changing the events to suit my needs.

I think rooted in the anger of bring up the texts and emails is the shame of revisiting their behavior, their hurtful words... .deep down they *do* know they were wrong, but can't bear having to own it.  So they fight back.  Hard.

He KNOWS what he says is wrong & vicious, so he's taken to snatching my phone -- I originally thought that it was for snooping, but the deletes the thread of messages between him and I, so I've started taking screen prints to preserve the messages. He'd never subject himself to re-reading these conversations, because that would mess up his, it's not ME, it's YOU defense.

Am just jumping in a little late here with some thoughts.

I also get the distinct impression it's too shameful for them to acknowledge it as they aren't in control when they are dysregulated into a rage.  (Imagine if you repeatedly did something which made you feel ashamed and didn't feel you could control it from repeating).

I've been subjected to the awful text tirades as well.  As to re-reading them?  Personally, I don't want to as it just hurts me more.

If we can truly accept they have a problem (hard to do) and therefore realize we don't need them to tell us, in order to be "right", (needing them to validate we're right), (which is also hard), it can help give us some peace.

I spent plenty of time trying to get him to face the behavior was wrong.  He would admit it, and his acknowledgement made me feel better, but didn't make the behavior stop the next time.

So, in my case, I had to ask myself... .what am I looking for here to get from him by "proving" he is wrong and being acknowledged?  And why? 

Now, I don't need him to tell me it's wrong to treat me that way, I know it and I walk away from it.  And I don't participate in it.  (And I'm still angry / frustrated when I do walk away)

When I started to accept (and still am trying) that he suffers from emotional problems, then the questions I've asked myself started to change as well.

When we let go of the need for them to tell us we're "right", then it becomes a matter of how to avoid the dysregulation and reduce our exposure to it.  Don't have to go 'round in circles with them over it.

FWIW... .that's what I've learned from the wise people here, and it's a journey for all of us to get there, and it doesn't end there.   

[waverider]

To those who are staying, which is the purpose of this board, are you finding throwing this evidence back in their face making your relationship better?

Is there a diplomatic way of doing this to minimize escalation?

Where do you draw the lines between fighting back and letting it wash?

What is the happy medium?

What needs a boundary, and what is conflict for the sake of it?

Why do we need to prove we are right, if we know our own truth?

[HopefulDad]

IME, the uBPDstbx that I am dealing with does not remember his raging episodes and if I bring them up, he will gaslight and say it was ME and there is no convincing him otherwise.

A great example is about a month ago, we got into a text fight where the told me that he was going to abandon me and all kinds of other (meant to be) hurtful things. Within in minutes, his next reply is, "Hi. How is your day going?" -- wow. This was very eye opening for me. It was like the huge blow up never happened.

One nice thing about when you have an iFight via text or email is that you have a record of what was said.  If your pwBPD tries to deny it later during discussion, you can break it out.  I have.  And my BPDw did NOT like that, but you know what?  Tough feces.  You said/wrote it, then own it.  :)on't deny it.  :)on't pretend it didn't happen.  :)on't say you said something else.  :)on't accuse me of changing the events to suit my needs.

I think rooted in the anger of bring up the texts and emails is the shame of revisiting their behavior, their hurtful words... .deep down they *do* know they were wrong, but can't bear having to own it.  So they fight back.  Hard.

He KNOWS what he says is wrong & vicious, so he's taken to snatching my phone -- I originally thought that it was for snooping, but the deletes the thread of messages between him and I, so I've started taking screen prints to preserve the messages. He'd never subject himself to re-reading these conversations, because that would mess up his, it's not ME, it's YOU defense.

Am just jumping in a little late here with some thoughts.

I also get the distinct impression it's too shameful for them to acknowledge it as they aren't in control when they are dysregulated into a rage.  (Imagine if you repeatedly did something which made you feel ashamed and didn't feel you could control it from repeating).

I've been subjected to the awful text tirades as well.  As to re-reading them?  Personally, I don't want to as it just hurts me more.

If we can truly accept they have a problem (hard to do) and therefore realize we don't need them to tell us, in order to be "right", (needing them to validate we're right), (which is also hard), it can help give us some peace.

I spent plenty of time trying to get him to face the behavior was wrong.  He would admit it, and his acknowledgement made me feel better, but didn't make the behavior stop the next time.

So, in my case, I had to ask myself... .what am I looking for here to get from him by "proving" he is wrong and being acknowledged?  And why? 

Now, I don't need him to tell me it's wrong to treat me that way, I know it and I walk away from it.  And I don't participate in it.  (And I'm still angry / frustrated when I do walk away)

When I started to accept (and still am trying) that he suffers from emotional problems, then the questions I've asked myself started to change as well.

When we let go of the need for them to tell us we're "right", then it becomes a matter of how to avoid the dysregulation and reduce our exposure to it.  Don't have to go 'round in circles with them over it.

FWIW... .that's what I've learned from the wise people here, and it's a journey for all of us to get there, and it doesn't end there.   

FWIW, I usually don't break out the texts/emails unless my wife decides to revisit the conversation and starts changing facts left and right.  She is entitled to her interpretation of the words, but not entitled to change what was actually said.  Especially if I'm accused of swearing at her or some other BS.

[waverider]

At times keeping "evidence' is much like have an escape plan, it is to validate ourselves so we know it is there rather than the need to use it.

Just try not to whip it out at a time when you are starting to dysregulate yourself, I know i have done it and always regretted it. They are not receptive to anything whilst in full flight of a rage.