Sugar coating or full frontal honest approach, which suits you(?) the best?

[HarmKrakow]

After having had a lot of discussions with members here, my therapists, my doctor, some of my friends and some moderators here I was wondering what people consider the best approach for themselves in consideration of progress of healing. Not healing, no progress of healing.

So what is the difference?

Sugar coating to me, is when something is bad, but you disguise is nice. The opposite, brutal honesty, is exactly as it is. It often reminds me of a quote from George Carlin. Now I don't like the guy, he was sometimes rude and ignorant etc. But some of his words did make a whole lot of sense.

George Carlin: In today's America, no child ever loses. There are no losers anymore. Everyone's a winner. No matter what the game or sport or competition, everybody wins. Everybody wins, everybody gets a trophy, no one is a loser. No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby!"

[laughter]

George Carlin: "You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the cr@p out of your desk and get the f_ck out of here, you're a loser."

Then it also comes back to what true empathy could be. If someone cheats on his wife, and comes to mourn on this website that he's hurt, but that his wife isn't specifically treating him well because he cheated you can quickly jump to the; "awww, come hear, we give you a big hug" or to the "mate, are you serious? You cheated and you wonder why she doesn't want you anymore?". The thing is, and I've had quite a few talks about this with my therapist that there seems to be a tendency for people who seem to be stuck in a loop who you keep sugar coating to the point where a intervention (shock effect) helps but other significant help might have been more suitable on forehand. Although I think most people can agree that an intervention is the last straw of hope you have for a loved one. Now I am not saying that the full honest approach is the 'best' approach nor am I saying sugar coating is the only approach. I think this depends on the person in question. You can't tell a person with a PhD in math's the same as you tell a person who only finished secondary school. But assuming the sugar coated approach to begin with, as a start, is something I disagree with. My therapist told me is it seems a religious based foundation, and although there is nothing wrong with religion, not at all, and everyone should follow whatever they want to follow, but taking it as a starting point might not the best choice out there. How often did you not read here that, time and time again, some tried for years, some even 20/30 years of marriage but all they wanted was someone who shook up their head and 'let them wake up from their nightmare' because they remained in their loop of thinking. ":)on't worry it will be better, don't worry it will work, don't worry eventually everything will get better" ... the soft sugar coated approach. Sometimes, just sometimes, stating what's on your tongue is not that bad. And sometimes, it doesn't get better. And a lot of people are on this forum. Again, i'm not advocating the honest approach, there are certain people who really benefit from the sugar coated approach, but in my opinion they never truly learn the real side of life. Don't a lot of people arrive here where they once had this fairy tale approach of life that true love existed etc, and now they woke up out of hell of a dream and find themselves all lost... for god knows how long.

Everyone who knows me here realize that the sugar coating approach with me doesn't work. I would like to tell though that for some it does work, and I do realize that. I just wonder what works best for you, as this discussion, unfortunately, has made some users leave this forum (both ways... .___ the softies! or ___ the people who seemingly don't want to hug us!). I often hear from my therapist that it's a blast to work with me, but obviously I have never been in groups therapy because my behavior would drive some of the softies completely insane.

I follow completely why this is a big deal for some people. So I wonder what works best for you? I prefer brutal honesty. If I cheat on my gf I hope my friends would leave me. Because I consider it a d!ck move. I've witnessed a tad to often where a certain girl cheated on her husband and her closest girlfriends all were in line with her (the a$$hole deserved it... ) well done girl!

I believe that most of society today are raised as softies and the important character building words as, you failed, you ___ed up, you screwed up are not being said enough. Until you have a pwBPD telling you did fail. And then you are lost in a vicious circle of lost feelings.

[livednlearned]

I guess my question is where the brutal honesty is coming from, and why it might be preferred. If it's because you think being weak is bad, and softies are weak, whereas brutal honesty is strength, then the brutal honesty just seems like a mask to me.

[laelle]

If you are addressing the general population, Brutal honesty is a great way to allow the individual to take that honesty and process it into their own situation.  It is vital and needed.

If you are addressing the individual, I feel, you are wrong to be brutal as you have no "right" to speak to someone (personally) without respect or regard for their own lives, feelings or situation.  It is very personal, and you are only making "assumptions" about someone's life that you have not or will not live.

Just my two cents... .

[fromheeltoheal]

It depends on your motivation.  If you're honestly trying to help someone, you need to meet them where they are and give them what they need while maintaining rapport.  Blurting out your version of the truth at a time when they are emotionally vulnerable could be mean and cruel, and will break rapport, so what was you motivation?

After leaving a long term abusive relationship, feeling beat up and worn out, what we probably need is empathy, compassion and validation, hugs as you put it.  Then as we detach by looking at the truth of the disorder, the focus begins to shift from the borderline to us, at which point brutal honesty can be helpful as the rubber meets the road and we get busy healing and growing.  Also, if we get stuck in blaming the evil borderline or whatever, more honesty might help us get back on track.  And also realizing that the trauma of a long term abusive relationship does not get healed in a day, and some amount of time is appropriate.

So again it boils down to what's your motivation.  Playing hardball with someone because you think people should be tough and not coddled is more a focus on you than on them, and the best way to help someone is give them what they honestly need in the moment, as we all heal and grow together.

[whirlpoollife]

HarmKrakow, are you looking at one scenario or all of them here on this board?  

I did not have the softie approach growing up. Yet I got myself in a long downhill marriage.

A few years ago a friend of mine who softly listened to me told me h is a narcissus.   I didn't know what it was. I looked it, and PD up and I felt like I was I was hit with a semi truck. That was brutal honesty. That changed my life.  

I have psychological damage from the marriage.  If I'm told over and over again that I screwed up, it would send me back to right where I was.  The positive encouragement , your soft approach your sugar coating,  has helped me immensely.     I didn't have sugar before and now it's darn good.

I fell , its a fact, brutal honesty. I need help to get up how do I do it?  :)o I go to the one who kicks mud in my face and leaves me down because its my fault that I fell... .or do I go to the one who reaches out and lifts me up so I don't fall again.

ps... .posting and replying here is "group therapy"

[Rose Tiger]

Eh, I asked my counselor why she didn't get on me for some of my bad vices.  She said, you have been emotionally beat on your whole life, enough of that, I'm here to encourage you, not put you down.  Getting reparented is awesome.  I was doing pretty well on putting myself down anyway.  How are you going to heal if you continue to put yourself down?

The other side of the coin is teaching self control to your inner child, you want to love and encourage little you but not give away the farm.  "But I want to... .whine wah whine."  And that's where we lay down the line, no sweetie, that is no good for you.  We have to put boundaries on the desires to procrastinate, to do unhealthy things, selfishness, just like a good parent does with a kid they love and care about.

[KE151]

Most people on this board probably have probably been treated badly, betrayed, cheated on, lied to. ALL of us have done one or more of those nasty things to others during the course of our lives. We all desire and appreciate honesty probably more than before our BPD experiences. But honesty and dishonesty come in many shades. Two examples: my BPDgf thought she was honest when she told me things about her past that she was afraid I'd find out from elsewhere. My S6 draws pictures which aren't always that beautiful but I still tell him he's doing a great job when he asks for my opinion. Which of the above is honesty, or dishonesty, or something in between? I dunno.

I think we need to be honest with ourselves first and foremost. If someone has been blessed and has accomplished such a feat with himself that doesn't give them the right to be judge, jury or executioner to anyone, anywhere. Maybe point the poor soul to the right direction, ask them difficult questions that will help them move forward. It's not sugar coating, it's human.

[HarmKrakow]

I guess my question is where the brutal honesty is coming from, and why it might be preferred. If it's because you think being weak is bad, and softies are weak, whereas brutal honesty is strength, then the brutal honesty just seems like a mask to me.

Being weak is not bad. I don't think it's bad either. Softies are not weak either. Some people however do remain in a loop, mentally. Again brutal honesty is not entering 55 swearwords when someone failed an exam, but stating that you didn't study enough where as sugar coating would be bringing your child to McDonalds and feed him and tell him; "better luck next time!' I feel you are referring to brutal honesty as the shouting kind of managers who 'seem tough at the outside' but their arrogance is purely a mask for a little brittle uncertain figure who is more uncertain than the guy he shouts at.

I feel the majority shoots in the defensive position here, because they have been hurt before. All though correctly stated, everyone on this forum, one way or another has been immensely hurt.

HarmKrakow, are you looking at one scenario or all of them here on this board?  

I specifically noted a few scenario's at the board (just a few) where the naivety was bad. I'm sorry, but if you steal a car, and go to prison, don't whine about it? Or is this to blunt/direct?

A few years ago a friend of mine who softly listened to me told me h is a narcissus.   I didn't know what it was. I looked it, and PD up and I felt like I was I was hit with a semi truck. That was brutal honesty. That changed my life.  

That's the honesty I mean! Say it as it is! Not bending the truth by all sorts of sweets! And that can create such a shocker that you wake up from a negative point in your life. I've actually endured quite a few shocks like that. Isn't that one of the reasons why in many countries on cigarette boxes they put pictures of filthy lung cancer lungs? I have no problem with people smoking, but at least realize that you have a higher chance of dying of lung cancer. This 'reality/honest' check might do just the trick to wake you up.

[musicfan42]

I prefer brutal honesty.

But the thing is, this forum is about relationships. I've read that if someone is in an abusive relationship, then they need to make the choice themselves to leave. It's almost like quitting a drug really... they have to be ready to make the change themselves. I've read up on addiction and obsession is a big part of it... having a mental obsession with your drug of choice. I notice that people here spend a lot of time thinking about the borderline. I think this is a slippery slope... that it's obsession... part of the problem in the first place... that to truly get over someone, you have to stop thinking/obsessing about them and focus on other things in your life... to replace that person with other pursuits and move forward in your life. People talk about detachment here and that's what I'm really getting at.

I don't think that emotional validation is mollycoddling however I do think that it's feeding into that obsessive type of thinking. This is probably why I'm willing to validate people here to a certain extent but then I basically expect them to make some kind of change. I think "fine... we all obsess a bit" but past a certain point, it's definitely unhealthy psychologically and I'm not willing to enable someone to just obsess about someone all the time. If someone keeps obsessing, then I think it's time at that point to seek professional help. This is an online forum... we're all posting in a non-professional capacity so we all have limits.

[Learning_curve74]

The problem with "brutal honesty" -- in the form of "why did you do that?" -- is invalidation -- the unspoken part is "why did you do that, you idiot?". That puts most people on the defensive, and they will tend to block out anything you say once they feel they are on defensive. That renders whatever is said, no matter how good or useful it may be, ineffective. You know that look people get when they're just nodding their head, "uh huh, yes... ." but they're not listening at all to what you're saying? Yes, there is a certain level of explaining that is helpful as we can see on the boards. But arguing, explaining, and blaming aren't necessarily invalidating only to people who have BPD but to everybody in general.

George Carlin can be funny, but he was wrong because saying "you lost" is NOT the same as "you're a loser". That is a very black and white way of looking at the world. There are many good people in the world, and I am sure every one of them has done something bad. Yes, people should suffer the consequences of their bad actions, but that doesn't mean people are one dimensional. If you cheat on your gf, then your friends can always say, "You did an awful thing to cheat on her. Why did you do such an awful thing?" but there is a distinction between that and saying, "You're a totally awful scum piece of ****. Why do you have to be a scumbag?" It seems like a minor distinction but it really isn't. The first way just states the facts that you did something bad, the second way says that you ARE bad which is a totally different story.

I do feel that everybody benefits from acceptance -- seeing things clearly without judgement clouding the vision. Then only after we can clearly see the situation as it is (reality), then because we want to do the right thing, we can make a judgement. But without the clarity of acceptance, then our vision is too clouded to make good decisions. Being "brutally honest" doesn't always help people see clearly for the reasons I pointed out above.

[an0ught]

George Carlin: "You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the cr@p out of your desk and get the f_ck out of here, you're a loser."

There is a big difference between

 - you lost

 - you are a looser

The first is a fact. The other is labeling and may be projection of fears of the one who labels.

Then it also comes back to what true empathy could be. If someone cheats on his wife, and comes to mourn on this website that he's hurt, but that his wife isn't specifically treating him well because he cheated you can quickly jump to the; "awww, come hear, we give you a big hug" or to the "mate, are you serious? You cheated and you wonder why she doesn't want you anymore?". The thing is, and I've had quite a few talks about this with my therapist that there seems to be a tendency for people who seem to be stuck in a loop who you keep sugar coating to the point where a intervention (shock effect) helps but other significant help might have been more suitable on forehand. Although I think most people can agree that an intervention is the last straw of hope you have for a loved one. Now I am not saying that the full honest approach is the 'best' approach nor am I saying sugar coating is the only approach. I think this depends on the person in question. You can't tell a person with a PhD in math's the same as you tell a person who only finished secondary school. But assuming the sugar coated approach to begin with, as a start, is something I disagree with. My therapist told me is it seems a religious based foundation, and although there is nothing wrong with religion, not at all, and everyone should follow whatever they want to follow, but taking it as a starting point might not the best choice out there. How often did you not read here that, time and time again, some tried for years, some even 20/30 years of marriage but all they wanted was someone who shook up their head and 'let them wake up from their nightmare' because they remained in their loop of thinking. ":)on't worry it will be better, don't worry it will work, don't worry eventually everything will get better" ... the soft sugar coated approach. Sometimes, just sometimes, stating what's on your tongue is not that bad. And sometimes, it doesn't get better. And a lot of people are on this forum. Again, i'm not advocating the honest approach, there are certain people who really benefit from the sugar coated approach, but in my opinion they never truly learn the real side of life. Don't a lot of people arrive here where they once had this fairy tale approach of life that true love existed etc, and now they woke up out of hell of a dream and find themselves all lost... for god knows how long.

Everyone who knows me here realize that the sugar coating approach with me doesn't work. I would like to tell though that for some it does work, and I do realize that. I just wonder what works best for you, as this discussion, unfortunately, has made some users leave this forum (both ways... .___ the softies! or ___ the people who seemingly don't want to hug us!). I often hear from my therapist that it's a blast to work with me, but obviously I have never been in groups therapy because my behavior would drive some of the softies completely insane.

I follow completely why this is a big deal for some people. So I wonder what works best for you? I prefer brutal honesty. If I cheat on my gf I hope my friends would leave me. Because I consider it a d!ck move. I've witnessed a tad to often where a certain girl cheated on her husband and her closest girlfriends all were in line with her (the a$$hole deserved it... ) well done girl!

I believe that most of society today are raised as softies and the important character building words as, you failed, you ___ed up, you screwed up are not being said enough. Until you have a pwBPD telling you did fail. And then you are lost in a vicious circle of lost feelings.

Hmm, you prefer BRUTAL honesty? Sounds like a lot of emotions tied up with honesty.

What about factual honesty?

S: To help you

E: although you may not like hearing that

T: there is a whole volume of workshop material and trained members on this site helping other members to communicate straight facts. Straight facts after making sure the receiver is not so distracted by own emotions that the facts can't be processed.

So what is wrong of using emotions to push our message? Nothing really. Using emotions to push our message is well, pushing. Some pushing in life is only fair. Using brutal honest i.e. strong emotions is strongly pushing. Using our unfiltered (and possibly slightly out of control) emotions on a person that already struggles with their own emotions is of course risking overloading that person. It is pushing so strongly that the other person may well loose control and may be pushed over. It is us pushing the other one over.

Sometimes people may need to be pushed. But when we push others over we cross boundaries and we have full responsibility.

- We intervene.

- Risk for loss of respect and increasing enmeshment.

- Communication is something else.


Now when it comes to us here, we are as well in a lot of pain. Pain in part brought on us through others. Pain we suffered maybe in part due to choices we made. Some forced, some wise and some, well plain stupid  We are angry, we still may be suffering from irrational fear and are generally off-balance.

Do we need true facts to ground us? - yes.

Do we need brutal honesty? - not so certain. We are already distressed and thus prone to being judgmental. Receiving a brutal honest message we

- either judge ourselves unworthy. While hearing the message and doing superficial adjustments our overall pain increase setting us up for more dysfunction.

- or judge ourselves free from blame. Dismissing the message continuing the current dysfunction.

A last thought. Do we want to be strongly pushed to not have to face the painful reality that we have to make our own choices and are responsible for them?

We were tossed in a b&w world. We have left, the dysfunction ceased or were able to learn to shield ourselves. To heal we need to relearn to see and speak the subtle tones in-between.

[livednlearned]

George Carlin: "You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the cr@p out of your desk and get the f_ck out of here, you're a loser."

There is a big difference between

 - you lost

 - you are a looser

The first is a fact. The other is labeling and may be projection of fears of the one who labels.

Big difference in law, too, at least here. You can say someone is lying. You can't call them a liar.

Hmm, you prefer BRUTAL honesty? Sounds like a lot of emotions tied up with honesty.

What about factual honesty?

S: To help you

E: although you may not like hearing that

T: there is a whole volume of workshop material and trained members on this site helping other members to communicate straight facts. Straight facts after making sure the receiver is not so distracted by own emotions that the facts can't be processed.

So what is wrong of using emotions to push our message? Nothing really. Using emotions to push our message is well, pushing. Some pushing in life is only fair. Using brutal honest i.e. strong emotions is strongly pushing. Using our unfiltered (and possibly slightly out of control) emotions on a person that already struggles with their own emotions is of course risking overloading that person. It is pushing so strongly that the other person may well loose control and may be pushed over. It is us pushing the other one over.

Sometimes people may need to be pushed. But when we push others over we cross boundaries and we have full responsibility.

- We intervene.

- Risk for loss of respect and increasing enmeshment.

- Communication is something else.


Now when it comes to us here, we are as well in a lot of pain. Pain in part brought on us through others. Pain we suffered maybe in part due to choices we made. Some forced, some wise and some, well plain stupid  We are angry, we still may be suffering from irrational fear and are generally off-balance.

Do we need true facts to ground us? - yes.

Do we need brutal honesty? - not so certain. We are already distressed and thus prone to being judgmental. Receiving a brutal honest message we

- either judge ourselves unworthy. While hearing the message and doing superficial adjustments our overall pain increase setting us up for more dysfunction.

- or judge ourselves free from blame. Dismissing the message continuing the current dysfunction.

A last thought. Do we want to be strongly pushed to not have to face the painful reality that we have to make our own choices and are responsible for them?

We were tossed in a b&w world. We have left, the dysfunction ceased or were able to learn to shield ourselves. To heal we need to relearn to see and speak the subtle tones in-between.

Really helpful an0ught. Thanks for this.

Not sure if this is true for lots of people here, but I grew up with "brutal honesty" and married "super brutal honesty," and spent most of my life thinking that emotions were weak, and people who couldn't handle the truth were weak. Me included. That belief is by far the most toxic thing I got from my FOO. It is the single most destructive thing I've had to work through. When someone makes you think that your natural desire for love and understanding is weak, right after they have been "brutally honest," it creates a merry goround of pain. You start to think you have to learn to take it, otherwise you are weak. Instead of recognizing that it is aggressive, and learning to stop it.

If someone is brutally honest with me, I look at them and wonder who treated them so badly that they think this is normal. Their "honesty" counts for nothing.

[Skip]

I think we have all asked someone to be brutally honest with us.  It opens a door for a trusted friend or confidant to tell us something that may not be easy for us to hear.  It's a type of immunity.  It's a good thing.

However, asking for brutal honesty is very different than someone dispensing advice in a brutal way, unsolicited.

Is it ever good to be brutal in a "abuse" support group?  

Harm,  in this one post of yours,  for example, you criticize two members for liking an article written by Martha Beck and call one of the member's advise to another "hogwash".

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=213905.msg12347873#msg12347873

What truth did you hold that the others failed to see?  Was offering it in a contentious way about helping them?

"Brutal honesty" implies that we know the truth and it implies that delivering it in an insensitive, disagreeable, harsh or insensitive way is more healthy than delivering it in a compassionate way.  

And to turn this around a bit, is it actually "sugar coating" is to characterize contemptuous posting as "honesty".  

It is true, that at times members enable one another or validate invalid things in the name of support - and that often isn't helpful.  But maybe the antidote for this is to model more thoughtful and responsible posting and lead by example - not to be brutal.

Just some thoughts to add to a very good thread.

[livednlearned]

Quote from: maxen on November 04, 2013, 06:36:14 AM

harm i'm so sorry for your loss. please keep posting here, stay connected with us.

and please don't feel guilty about feeling. it's good that your emotions express!

But why good expressing emotions? Seriously? My BPD ex told me that people who vent on these internet forums are sad pathetic losers who need to get a life. Boo-hoo sad sobbing self-pity drowning losers...

She told me that quite clearly with a shouting voice... .

What if we here are the sad ones here? The people who have issues and need places like this to emotionally vent. Isn't that wrong? And sad... ?

I mean at moments like this (funeral is in 13 hours) i feel crap beyond crap ... But I almost dare not to complain to much cuz it makes me feel like a f@cking failure.

I wonder if you started this thread because you have this softie vs. brutal honesty battle internally? You had a very tough childhood, mother in a mental institute, foster homes, and a lot of cruel and abusive comments said to you. Then a BPDx who continued to say cruel things to you. Then recently you suffer two very difficult blows, a death in the family, failing your exams, a difficult time for anyone, much less someone who is recovering from a BPD relationship.  

Maybe you are working through this because you want to know if the feedback you got, the part that was contemptuous, cruel (brutally honest) is true or not?

[Ironmanrises]

For me, with my current fragile psyche, something along the lines that falls in between sugar coating and full frontal honest approach. I experienced the full frontal approach from my friends and they do not understand the whole dynamic of what I have been undergoing and all that did was make me retreat further into myself. When I get far too much frontal honest approaches(And I get that people on here mean well), I just don't have the energy to try and absorb that. Just be easy with your wording is all I want from people. 

[fromheeltoheal]

For me, with my current fragile psyche, something along the lines that falls in between sugar coating and full frontal honest approach. I experienced the full frontal approach from my friends and they do not understand the whole dynamic of what I have been undergoing and all that did was make me retreat further into myself. When I get far too much frontal honest approaches(And I get that people on here mean well), I just don't have the energy to try and absorb that. Just be easy with your wording is all I want from people. 

Yes, there's a time for each. It's a little hard to tell sometimes here since we're just typing to each other, but at least there's a lot of us so you can take what you need and leave the rest.

I've been reading today how we can feel alone in the world after a breakup because the borderline is gone and no one seems to understand, but people here do, time and time again. Thankfully we get pretty good at feeling what people need in the moment.

[Turkish]

For me, with my current fragile psyche, something along the lines that falls in between sugar coating and full frontal honest approach.

This past weekend, a friend of mine (actually my childhood friend's wife, but I've known her ten years now she is a friend, too) was brutally honest about what she thought of my X. She kept saying, "sorry, but this is what I think." I said, "no, I need to hear it, and you say what you think and I won't get mad at you." She basically unloaded on how she didn;t like my X from the first moment she met her. It helps me to detach even more, and feeling the lack of stress in staying in their house (with my kids, but without the X) was a breath of fresh air. Another friend has been brutally honest about what he thought of my X from the beginning, too. I took his opinion as the lesser of the two, since he is the type of guy who doesn't like many people, but coming from a well-ordered woman about another woman helps me see the truth I denied or repressed for many years.

This thread is also helping me shape my confrontations with her, pointing out the facts: "you lied, are lying, have done these wrong and immoral things" rather than, "you're a liar, cheater, abandoner and an irresponsible teen mom." Even though I am dying to say the latter.

[livednlearned]

This thread is also helping me shape my confrontations with her, pointing out the facts: "you lied, are lying, have done these wrong and immoral things" rather than, "you're a liar, cheater, abandoner and an irresponsible teen mom." Even though I am dying to say the latter.

What kind of confrontations? I'm curious, genuinely. I cannot think of anything positive that would happen for me if I were to point out the facts to my ex. Positive things only started to happen when I began to take charge of my behavior in reaction to his behavior. But I'm also beginning to understand that I skipped over a lot of stuff because I felt afraid, and didn't think (for good reason, I believe) that pointing out facts was going to ever amount to anything positive. Especially for me. Brutal honesty or not. The only words that ever felt powerful were "no" and "stop." Everything else was negative engagement.

I still struggle with this lingering feeling that NC and splitting are similar. I'm not second-guessing myself, exactly, but do wonder sometimes if there was a middle way.

What will the confrontation bring you, Turkish?

 

[Turkish]

This thread is also helping me shape my confrontations with her, pointing out the facts: "you lied, are lying, have done these wrong and immoral things" rather than, "you're a liar, cheater, abandoner and an irresponsible teen mom." Even though I am dying to say the latter.

What kind of confrontations? I'm curious, genuinely. I cannot think of anything positive that would happen for me if I were to point out the facts to my ex. Positive things only started to happen when I began to take charge of my behavior in reaction to his behavior. But I'm also beginning to understand that I skipped over a lot of stuff because I felt afraid, and didn't think (for good reason, I believe) that pointing out facts was going to ever amount to anything positive. Especially for me. Brutal honesty or not. The only words that ever felt powerful were "no" and "stop." Everything else was negative engagement.

I still struggle with this lingering feeling that NC and splitting are similar. I'm not second-guessing myself, exactly, but do wonder sometimes if there was a middle way.

What will the confrontation bring you, Turkish?

Trying to get her out of my d%&n house! I know I could easily shatter the facade. She's playing all nice and decorating for Christmas, wanting to have somewhat normal holidays. I confess that I am, too. As long as I don't get it thrown in my face like the text message from two weeks ago, or him calling and me catching it, I think I can handle a few more weeks. But I have shocked her before by pointing out her behaviors (in reality, I just start the opening, and she starts crying and admits to a lot... .then goes back to the high functioning cycle). I flat out told her last week that I was tired of her mirroring her parents' dysfunctional relationship in front of our children. I could shock her more from that point of view, stopping short of calling her a bad mother (nothing good could come of that... .besides, she's admitted it to me before "sorry for being a bad mom... ." just before she took off after I put the kids to bed and didn't come back until 1AM or after). It sux with her because she admits to things so easily, cries a little. I suppose I get something from it, though I told her I was sick of apologies anymore and not to bother. I know how to push her guilt buttons... .with me, too. I told her, "I fall, we all fall, and you know it!" I could keep doing that. It seems to have some effect, at least, but I need to keep up the positive/negative reinforcement, or she'll still be in my house come next Christmas. Besides, I still fear the recycle if this guy dumps her. But I think they keep it just enough not being in a "real" relationship (lack of commitment), that they can just back off a bit and still engage in whatever BS they have going on. "I don't know what I have with him... ." she said. Well, I know you call him "Love" so that is something, no?

Did that answer your question?

[charred]

The place for brutal honesty is with yourself.

What was it that brought you to the low place you have been. The pwBPD had a part, so did whatever part of you responded to them.

I have been angry/hurt/confused/clueless and a lot of other ways as a result of my r/s with a pwBPD. The main thing that has come from it all... I can't delude myself that the things that happened to me didn't leave marks... .used to try to believe I was unscathed by a mother who lost her mother when she was 5, and a vicious NPD father... and by lots of other normal growing up traumatic events... .but the egoic defenses I had... kept me from facing the truth with myself.

I haven't seen my father in 12 yrs and barely can stand to spend time with my mom... lived on my own since I was 14 and managed to get a masters degree and do well... but the brutal honesty of accepting how messed up our upbringing and our own behavior, choices and defenses... .that is tough. Its why the personal inventory boards are quiet in comparison to the leaving one. When in pain we reach out... a bit, but looking in the mirror is hard.

[livednlearned]

Did that answer your question?

I guess, a little. My situation was so different, so maybe it's hard to see any comparison. I think maybe I was in a different head space, more like what charred is describing. I pointed the brutal honest at myself. It wasn't safe for me to say too much to N/BPDx directly. The brutal honest truth is that I was afraid of him, he was an alcoholic, he had too many issues, I was done trying to fix our marriage by myself, he was terrorizing our son, etc. I don't know what that would have accomplished.

I think what I'm trying to figure out is... .whether the need to say it all directly is about wanting a different outcome. As opposed to just making up your mind and deciding this is what you're going to do. This is the boundary. Here. And this person is no longer going to bust it, because I am xyz.

[HarmKrakow]

Quote from: maxen on November 04, 2013, 06:36:14 AM

harm i'm so sorry for your loss. please keep posting here, stay connected with us.

and please don't feel guilty about feeling. it's good that your emotions express!

But why good expressing emotions? Seriously? My BPD ex told me that people who vent on these internet forums are sad pathetic losers who need to get a life. Boo-hoo sad sobbing self-pity drowning losers...

She told me that quite clearly with a shouting voice... .

What if we here are the sad ones here? The people who have issues and need places like this to emotionally vent. Isn't that wrong? And sad... ?

I mean at moments like this (funeral is in 13 hours) i feel crap beyond crap ... But I almost dare not to complain to much cuz it makes me feel like a f@cking failure.

I wonder if you started this thread because you have this softie vs. brutal honesty battle internally? You had a very tough childhood, mother in a mental institute, foster homes, and a lot of cruel and abusive comments said to you. Then a BPDx who continued to say cruel things to you. Then recently you suffer two very difficult blows, a death in the family, failing your exams, a difficult time for anyone, much less someone who is recovering from a BPD relationship.  

Maybe you are working through this because you want to know if the feedback you got, the part that was contemptuous, cruel (brutally honest) is true or not?

I've had page long replies on this comment. And also short ones. Life has been quite tricky last few days. You are obviously right as I have had enormous sugar coating and enormous d!ck a$$ behavior towards me for years and years to all finish it off with my BPD ex who discarded everyone on this forum as pathetic losers. (People who vent on the internet to strangers are sick freaks). Considering that person once meant something for you, you obviously take that 2 serious, even after the break up of the r/s, anyway yada yada yada. You get the point.

I admit that reading the book, thinking fast and slow, also helped its part. My brain loves factual honesty, from time to time can really appreciate brutal honesty and gets goosebumps when it hears sugar coating.

1)But most of it also depends on emotions and feelings. You fail an exam and you complain? I'd likely say; "that's your own fault". Someone I know? Maybe throw brutal honesty into it. Even to a complete random stranger.

2)On the other hand, if your wife tells you that you were not supportive enough during her pregnancy... it's her 'factual' sense of emotions and your own 'factual' sense of emotions. This is different and in a case. And I'd also get upset if someone would throw me brutal honesty.

My cases, in my opinion here, mostly relate to the first.

Ok, ok, just because I can't sleep I throw in another example.

My mother is mentally ill and locked up in a mental institute and a week ago I went with my father to the shrink together, to discuss how I should 'finish' things with my mother. My father told my therapist shocking stories of how my mother behaved when I was younger (tried to drown me, forget me in the bathtub while water was running, threatening to kill me, threatening to kill herself, walking around on psychiatric wards with a diaper who would get lose and become filthy, completely suicidal hysterical on psychiatric wards). Driving my father insane to the point he didn't know what to do anymore. The family of my mother had influence in the church and the minister of the church even said during services how evil and bad my father was, how he was going to hell for wanting to get my mother to a psychiatric ward. How the entire family of my mother threatened my father day and night by taking me away. How they would all go to heaven and my father would be tortured. The minister of the Church often visited my father and all his deacon buddies joined him to 'sort of shove it' to my father about how bad he was etc. While on the other hand all the psychiatrists where, mate, your wife is officially crazy, get rid of her. My father at the time was still religious but as one can imagine after 8 years of bashing by once believed family members who he saw as friends, faith in religion went away completely.

(i'm sorry if I offended any Christians in this board, the family of my mother follows this part of the Christian Religion -> www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Churches_in_the_Netherlands_(Liberated) )

I've haven't seen my mother since Christmas 2012 and just went for a visit last thursday. After realizing all what my father said I obviously have a different look on my mother and her family. (Not to mention my mother had a huge photo of me and my ex on her photo board... .). The family of my mother wants me more contact with me and my mother and the family.

So what should I do realizing what my father told me?

Brutal honesty? All tell them to go f$$$ themselves?

Factual honesty? All tell them that they weren't too nice to me but it's been forgiven?

Sugar coating? Awwww, you guys couldn't help it as you all thought this behavior was being talked into you by the Lord and I fully understand?

Seriously, what should I do? I can't relate anywhere when i post a question like this. Crap like this keeps me awake at night (3.15AM where I live) and prohibits me from feeling; "okay".

[livednlearned]

So what should I do realizing what my father told me?

Brutal honesty? All tell them to go f$$$ themselves?

Factual honesty? All tell them that they weren't too nice to me but it's been forgiven?

Sugar coating? Awwww, you guys couldn't help it as you all thought this behavior was being talked into you by the Lord and I fully understand?

Seriously, what should I do? I can't relate anywhere when i post a question like this. Crap like this keeps me awake at night (3.15AM where I live) and prohibits me from feeling; "okay".

Sometimes, when I imagine myself fully healed, feeling whole and at peace, I know that I'll be able to experience my family's behavior without anger, even though they behaved badly. They won't be able to trigger me because I'll feel whole. By whole, I mean that I'll be able to feel all my feelings, not just the negative ones. I'm not there yet, but I see it. I know it's possible for me, and I'm going to keep working until I get there.

I think you do too? And maybe this is agonizing because you aren't there yet? Your feelings haven't resolved, and yet you are being asked to behave in a way as though they are resolved. As though you are ready to be vulnerable with them -- your abusers, or neglecters, when you haven't yet let yourself be vulnerable with yourself? Please forgive me if I'm projecting my stuff on you    This is where I'm at, and while it isn't keeping me up at night, it's preoccupying me, especially now that I'm in a stretch of peace time after such a long stretch of conflict.

I know exactly where I'm stuck, and that's what I'm working on now -- how to feel the grief, and particularly the betrayal, of having a messed up childhood. Whenever I'm about to really feeling those feelings, my mind whisks that opportunity away, and I skirt those feelings so fast it's like they're just a blur. But I'm close. I'm really close. I've had the despondency and some of those more passive negative feelings. I've even had some body wracking sobbing. But I feel like there's this core pain my defenses won't let me touch. Like I need to outsmart them so I can feel that really core pain.

The other day, I imagined myself doing something kind for my dad, and for a flash of a second, I pictured him crying about the pain he inflicted during my childhood, enough that I could see he loved me, and I felt this kind of compassion that knocked the wind out of me. Because imagining him with empathy and awareness, really feeling how that might feel -- that opened up some vulnerability I wasn't really sure how to get to.

I have spent a lifetime perfecting protective behaviors and they have gotten me a long way. My defensive crouch is state-of-the-art    But I'm ready to feel good. To feel peaceful. To forgive.

So all this to say: maybe you see what you want but have these magnificent coping skills keeping you from feeling the deep stuff. It's not entirely about them, it's about you. What you will let yourself feel. What you're ready to feel.

My best breakthroughs came right after the lowest, darkest points. A little ways out of the crisis, but still dark and raw enough that it was easier to get past my defenses and get a good look at the wound. It's weird to want to get back there, but I know that after doing that honest feeling work, the relief afterwards led to feelings of peace I never even knew people could feel, much less me.

Not sure if this is helpful to you -- I feel a little exposed in case I've completely missed what you're looking for. Something in your anguish feels like the piece in me that I'm still working through, which is about me, with some tangential stuff connected to FOO.

I think the way to go is to be honest with yourself, and tell everyone they're gonna need to wait while you figure out what your truth is.

[HarmKrakow]

So what should I do realizing what my father told me?

My best breakthroughs came right after the lowest, darkest points.

My best breakthroughs always came out of shock related events. I was a introvert person with not that much ambition. My father brought me from rural area's in Netherlands to London. The shock was immense, but it worked. Sometimes you have to drop someone in the ocean when he finally realizes that he CAN swim and all this anxiety he had was a load of hogwash.

I feel a little exposed in case I've completely missed what you're looking for. Something in your anguish feels like the piece in me that I'm still working through, which is about me, with some tangential stuff connected to FOO.  

That's what we would call a hijack  But that's okay. I'm glad you getting your own points out of this story.

I think the way to go is to be honest with yourself, and tell everyone they're gonna need to wait while you figure out what your truth is.

I'm being honest. I seriously don't know what being honest with yourself is. Seriously.

[livednlearned]

I think the way to go is to be honest with yourself, and tell everyone they're gonna need to wait while you figure out what your truth is.

I'm being honest. I seriously don't know what being honest with yourself is. Seriously.

You're thinking honest as in intellectual. I'm talking about truth, as in feelings.

That's what I was trying to get it with the hijack 

That the "honesty" (thinking) is about "truth" (feelings). And you have to figure out how to get your thinking out of the way so you can feel your feelings about this. Because your coping mechanisms aren't just gonna up and leave. They're soldiers, here to do a job.

For now, because your truth isn't self-evident, it's eating you up. You have to get past your soldiers.

[fromheeltoheal]

My best breakthroughs came right after the lowest, darkest points. A little ways out of the crisis, but still dark and raw enough that it was easier to get past my defenses and get a good look at the wound. It's weird to want to get back there, but I know that after doing that honest feeling work, the relief afterwards led to feelings of peace I never even knew people could feel, much less me.

Hallelujah!  I've had 3 dark periods since I left her a year and a half ago.  The first one was all about her and us, the second one defied classification, it was just all funk, and the third one, the one I'm just coming out of, was all about me and none about her.  Each time I've felt lighter and more grounded, and have finally found the 'right' way to process.  I agree that it's weird to dig deep into whatever's below all the defenses, but it's getting easier, and I've found the best way is to slow down and just be, instead of do.  A calm, grounded place is not only the best way to get to the truth, it's also a more pleasant place to live, and I now know I avoided it for so long because all the crap came bubbling up and I had no idea how to deal with it, so off to the races I went again.  Well, the way to deal with it is just feel it, all the way, no repressing, projecting, running, just feeling; scary at first, but turns out there isn't a bunch of deep, dark stuff down there, just standard human, and feeling it all the way makes me a healed one.

[Century2012]

I think the challenge is with the word brutal. Honesty doesn't have to be brutal. It just is. No is sugar coating the best. Because we don't honestly confront ourselves.

I say listen to Mary Poppins.

A spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down.

Be well friend ... .

[Hazelrah]

The place for brutal honesty is with yourself.

I agree with this concept, but the difficulty for some of us when we first get here (myself included) is balancing being ‘brutally honest with yourself’ against being just plain brutal to oneself.  My internal voice for years has tended towards the latter, but slowly learning the ‘art’ of brutal internal honesty has begun to be rewarding; combining this with how to distinguish feelings from truths has been doubly so.  I couldn’t have really begun to move forward without learning these important distinctions.     

[HarmKrakow]

The place for brutal honesty is with yourself.

I agree with this concept, but the difficulty for some of us when we first get here (myself included) is balancing being ‘brutally honest with yourself’ against being just plain brutal to oneself.  My internal voice for years has tended towards the latter, but slowly learning the ‘art’ of brutal internal honesty has begun to be rewarding; combining this with how to distinguish feelings from truths has been doubly so.  I couldn’t have really begun to move forward without learning these important distinctions.     

Intellectually, from a fact point of view I understand. Failure of an exam is a failure.

Only having hugged your gf 10 times when she wanted 20 is that failure? What's "brutal honesty" in that one? Or 'how to have served' a true friend? 10 times a year? The only honesty I can give my friends is to be always honest and throw everything on the table.

[Turkish]

My therapist tells me I will find my true identity the moment I hit another 'home run' in the shock department ... .

Hi Harm,

The way I view myself is that my identity is my core values, shown the world in how I treat others, whether good or bad. I daresay that if I asked my X to describe herself, or more correctly, "tell me who you are," that she would run the through the definitions of the roles she plays, "mother, daughter, sister, career woman, lover... ." That isn't who she is; that's who she is to other people. When any of those would be taken away, is she lesser? If I lose my job (which would be devastating to me, admittedly), or even worse, one or both of my children... .would that change who I am at the core? Perhaps, but it wouldn't change my identity.

As a short aside... .and forgive if this is hijacking... .one of her friends went into suicide ideation over the weekend. He started with the cutting. She called the police and he was admitted to the hospital for the day for observation, later released. When she got home and told me about it, we both said at the same time, "his boyfriend broke up with him." I told her (really to her, but I don't think she got it) that when someone defines their self-worth or even defines their identity through another, what is left when that person is gone? Nothing.

My point is that while our roles may help define us, they are not us. Food for thought, and take care... .

Turkish

[Turkish]

The place for brutal honesty is with yourself.

I agree with this concept, but the difficulty for some of us when we first get here (myself included) is balancing being ‘brutally honest with yourself’ against being just plain brutal to oneself.  My internal voice for years has tended towards the latter, but slowly learning the ‘art’ of brutal internal honesty has begun to be rewarding; combining this with how to distinguish feelings from truths has been doubly so.  I couldn’t have really begun to move forward without learning these important distinctions.     

Intellectually, from a fact point of view I understand. Failure of an exam is a failure.

Only having hugged your gf 10 times when she wanted 20 is that failure?

Mine had that problem with me for the past year, and flat out called me a "failure" in that department. I have to learn to not listen to disordered people who see the world through a twisted lens. She also called herself a "woman of character" in the same email. Funny, but her cheating, lying, financial and emotional abuse belies her view of herself. My mother, for instance, is a smart woman in many ways. I do not, however, listen to her regarding financial advice since she has rarely if ever demonstrated competence in that department. While it may be a bit of the logical fallacy of attacking the messenger, I listen to people who demonstrate by their actions that they know what they are talking about.