Are you a "healthy" Non? / Spectrum of Nons

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am both with passive aggressive tendencies with loved ones. My father has controlled me for about 40 of my 47 years (I work in a family business and he had his finger on me until I started my own business). I developed fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment issues during childhood.

I was married for 14 years to a fairly normal woman, definitely no PD's!  I think it was a timing thing for me. The ex pwBPD worked for me and subtly seduced me beginning a year before I divorced and a couple of months after I left my wife she turned it up a notch and I took the bait. She was 17 years younger than me and didn't come from "money" so I really enjoyed being able to share my life with her. Funny thing is she never really acted like she cared about "nice" things. Anyway, I ignored red flags right away about her fear to get too close. I attributed it to the fact that she was just immature.

I will say that 3 months of therapy has opened my eyes to my issues and I can already spot things in others such as codependency issues. My passive aggressiveness is 100% manageable already just by being aware of it. It is a bit scary coming out of this a new and improved person. I no longer fear abandonment but worry about engulfment. After a little more than 3 months o NC I no longer "hurt" but I do still feel that addiction occasionally. It is improving. I wouldn't take her back but for some reason I want her to miss me (I know a BPD doesn't really miss people unless they are with them) mainly because I would still love to rub it in her face!  I still have no desire to date. Even though I fell for a pwBPD I think my recovery is pretty normal compared to the ending of a "normal" relationship where a POS cheats on another.

[Waifed]

I am both with passive aggressive tendencies with loved ones. My father has controlled me for about 40 of my 47 years (I work in a family business and he had his finger on me until I started my own business). I developed fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment issues during childhood.

I was married for 14 years to a fairly normal woman, definitely no PD's!  I think it was a timing thing for me. The ex pwBPD worked for me and subtly seduced me beginning a year before I divorced and a couple of months after I left my wife she turned it up a notch and I took the bait. She was 17 years younger than me and didn't come from "money" so I really enjoyed being able to share my life with her. Funny thing is she never really acted like she cared about "nice" things. Anyway, I ignored red flags right away about her fear to get too close. I attributed it to the fact that she was just immature.

I will say that 3 months of therapy has opened my eyes to my issues and I can already spot things in others such as codependency issues. My passive aggressiveness is 100% manageable already just by being aware of it. It is a bit scary coming out of this a new and improved person. I no longer fear abandonment but worry about engulfment. After a little more than 3 months o NC I no longer "hurt" but I do still feel that addiction occasionally. It is improving. I wouldn't take her back but for some reason I want her to miss me (I know a BPD doesn't really miss people unless they are with them) mainly because I would still love to rub it in her face!  I still have no desire to date. Even though I fell for a pwBPD I think my recovery is pretty normal compared to the ending of a "normal" relationship where a POS cheats on another.

[DragoN]

There is something inherent in you that attracts people with PDs to you.

That's a scary thought. Fortunately over the years my PD radar is finely tuned.

I am not co dep, but my marriage was the replay of my FOO. Seeing and knowing that, and my exH's denial, and looking forward in time. It ended in divorce.

[BlushAndBashful]

Here's a related thought: If you subscribe to the theory that nons are unhealthy, do you think the severity of BPD in our ex's corresponds to the severity of our own issues?  If you are saying "I was a giant mess of CoDep and unhealthy FOO issues", did you end up with a very low-functioning pwBPD? Conversely, there are quite a few of us here that were relatively more-or-less stable, and somehow our HF pwBPD got into our lives undetected, and things didn't hit us in the face until months or years in.  I think just like there is a whole spectrum of BPD, there is also a wide spectrum of us nons.

Note: I realize I am FAR from perfect, and I take ownership of the bad choices I made and still make. Yes, it was my choice to remain for 8 years, and that's on me. But I also would really like to think that I would have run, Forrest, run if I would have experienced some of the stories I read here. (Such as the ones where the wacky stuff was already coming out on the first date).

[peacebaby]

"Now after it did get bad and the anger and break ups etc started surfacing I think I was emotionally worn down and still loved him and got to a point where I couldn't see clearly. Yes the relationship became unhealthy but I think that is different than being unhealthy. I got in a fog... .Now, if after everything I know now I seek him out or go after someone who is obviously unhealthy I definitely need some therapy to help me work out those issues. Again, I am far from perfect but being imperfect does not make us unhealthy. It just makes us human. "

===================================================

Perhaps a lot of this whole issue is the terminology. If the above counts as healthy, I'm healthy too. Perhaps it's the use of the word "unhealthy" that's an issue for some people. I identify just as much with the phrase "I've got issues to work on" as "I made unhealthy choices in my recent relationship."

Does having some issues, codependent or not, make us unhealthy? Perhaps that is the question.

[Perfidy]

Mauser... I've given the idea thought... What you said about running... had I known more. Well... Those stories of people and crazies is what I lived... .I tried to run. I was trapped by my own desire. I knew it was bad but... .ohhh... .So good! There must have been SOMETHING that kept me in it for so many years. I mean besides the witchcraft she used. Something that attracted me to such a loser. Maybe my self esteem was so low that I desired a girl who I thought had no chance with anyone else,therefore i had security. Maybe the pornstar sex... .It sure wasn't her good nature. She was completely negative about everything. Crisis mode almost perpetually. Very little calm. Nonstop drama... .No job. No friends except her tweeker drug buddies. I was told she prostituted for drugs after I met her. I dismissed it as jealousy... .it could have been true. On one of our first trips to Denny's for breakfast after the bar she seemed as though she were selling herself to me in a conversation we had. When we had sex she would tell me " feels like the first time every time"... .I started getting the feeling I wasn't the only one ever heard her say that. It was as though she had all of her lines rehearsed. Almost eight years... .Wow... No wonder I feel like I want a lobotomy. There were plenty of warnings and I ignored every one of them. When I started having sex with her I told myself it wasn't going to be a long term thing... .Damn...

[Hidden Dragon]

Please count me 100% into the `unhealthy` party.

I (and my family) have so many of the traits that were described above (thank You guys - I know I am not alone and your insights are so much worth for me), there were so many coincidences and things that blurred everything, that now I`m almost like happy that I`m still alive

And not only that: I finally understand SO MUCH more

I am quite relaxed about my ex b/c my rs FINALLY! ended few years ago, I went NC and am living MY life.

But I still `like` to explore the past b/c I explore myself. I buried many things down and moved on that time (straight into workaholism). I am still going to this cemetary (I like winters) and I digg .   Piece for piece  my puzzle is almost done.

@Perfidy - I can relate, I read few of your previous posts. I feel your pain and the straight text. I understand that the long years with your ex werent the best years of your life, but hey, do you have kids with her?

YOU are now in position to make better decisions etc. You understood what happened and why. Now its your turn No contact, love yourself and things will get better for YOU.

[zkirtz]

I guess by your definition I would be "healthy" but codependence can be a choice as well as unwanted.

My mother is schizophrenic. If this weren't so, my relation never happened the way it did. I never had succesful relationships because I fail at finding people who like me. Those who do are not very ugly and/or extreme nerds. Never had good examples either

So I said to myself that it is time for a "normal relationship" and a few months after that, I met my BPD. I guess I really was in desperate need for love. So when he acted all sweet, I fell for that. I thought it was real. And whe I saw it was not real; I could not leave because I thought well, yes, that is what my father did, leave a sick person alone. But I see now that living with serious disorders is sometimes, really, factually impossible.

[iluminati]

Hey, I wished I caught this sooner.  I feel you on the codependence thing, as prior to my relationship to my stbxw, I didn't have any codependency issues.  This isn't to say that my relationship were all perfect.  If anything, I had a strong pattern of pulling the plug quickly because of issues, of being too independent.  Like someone who would lose phone numbers and not talk to people for years over one argument type of independent.  That said, from my experience hanging around the board, I will make two observations.

One is that recovering addicts/alcoholics are a disproportionate number of nons, irrespective of codependency or other family issues.  I've seen a few theories about this.  One is that since pwBPD are more likely to have addiction issues, they are more likely to meet addicts just as a matter of chance.  Another is that people in recovery tend to replace their various substances with other passions, and someone with BPD might low-key give them a rush similar to their old substances.  (I've heard this with people with ADD involved with people with BPD as well.)

Two is that while the codependency isn't universal, it's definitely real.  There are so many capes from the Captain Save-em types that we could probably start a clothes drive with them.  Give them to the poor or something.   I have met and/or had phone contact with a good chunk of site members over the years, and the phenomenon is far from a joke.  I think the take home message is to figure out what we do have in common (i.e. having a relationship with someone with BPD), figure out our differences and seeing what we can learn from the experience.  That way makes life easier for all.

[iluminati]

The fact is that people who are in good emotional shape, with no weird childhood crap, would not allow themselves to be treated the way everyone here has allowed themselves to be treated. I would never have imagined I'd let all that happen to me, but I did. i wasn't "that kind of person" but I was. I thought of myself as strong and brave, like I could fix her with my love, like I was strong enough to take all that abuse and remain intact. That's just not healthy thinking. Healthy thinking is "get away from crazy person who makes me feel bad."

The healthy folks who have relationships with BPD's usually get out fast and don't endure the kind of pain that brings people to this board.

First, good to see you again.  

I think the issue is that no two people are alike, and I think that goes doubly so for nons and pwBPD.  As for myself, I found out relatively early what the diagnosis was, engaged in the process, made plans for an exit as conditions and finances warranted, then pulled it off.  On the flip side, a lot of my verbal issues were pretty low-key compared to a lot of other relationships, simply because of my communication style.  I didn't have too many issues with violence because I'm a big guy, both compared to my stbxw (who isn't exactly a shrimp) and to people in general.  And so on.

The thing is that there are a wide range of circumstances for both nons and pwBPD.  Someone could be in a situation where, for whatever reason, they can handle socially and financially the impact of a relationship longer than average with a pwBPD, especially if there aren't any violence or substance abuse issues.  On the flip side, a pwBPD could be getting their Ike Turner on while doing speedballs.  Your mileage may vary, and vary wildly.  I hesitate to judge people as codependent or unhealthy without hearing out their story some.  I've seen situations that have been wildly dangerous to ones where people would have to had stalked the household to get what's going on.  I know enough to know how much I don't know with this stuff.

[goldylamont]

This isn't to say that my relationship were all perfect.  If anything, I had a strong pattern of pulling the plug quickly because of issues, of being too independent... .

thanks illuminati, your posts are both insightful for our discussion and also funny

from reading all the posts it does seem that the great majority of 'nons' tend to balance out the selfishness quite common with pwBPD perhaps with too much selflessness, or some form of co-dependance. i actually identify with your comment illuminati on being 'too independent', in general or perhaps we'd call it being too non-committal in relationships. i don't tend to cut people out of my lives, but it is true that i get lost in my work and projects and fall out of contact with loved ones and friends. this has been something i've been working on by reaching out to contact people more. i've started cooking more and inviting people over for dinner and try and do more events to see friends for no particular reason. in relationships historically i've been non-committal; not that i sleep around (i'm not into having multiple partners), but most of my romantic relationships would last several months and then i wouldn't be ready to commit and 'claim' the woman as my girlfriend. i think of lot of this was ego, a lot was ignorance. i didn't have girlfriend that i told the world about until my late 20's, although i started dating in my early 20's. i think i used to view having a girlfriend as choosing a wife or something so even though i truly cared about this person i was scared to say i loved them fully if i didn't plan to spend the rest of my life with them. i've learned to relax on this a little.

if anything i believe this is what was most painful for me in this breakup. it being the longest r/s for both of us, for several years, we kind of became an item so to speak amongst friends and family. she tamed my wild beast  and i hers (for a while at least,  ). also was a first for me to live with a partner. so i grew tremendously from this r/s--but will point out that personally i don't attribute this growth to my ex's BPD traits, rather to the loving/committed side of our r/s that allowed me to relax and settle. she cut through my picky-ness, so to speak.

neither of us had substance abuse issues (well, those damn cigarettes, which we both would quit and restart, which i'm now committed to stopping forever). i don't believe she was self-harming anymore although i know she used to cut (she claims as a teen, but who knows?). and no physical violence, although there was one instance a few months before we broke up where she claims i was, but frankly i wasn't (another long story).

i did know though that she was troubled from the start. and this is my biggest red flag. i have a song i wrote to prove it, . i guess i approached our r/s with an attitude of "well, let's just see what happens" type attitude. and that if things got too bad i could leave. in essence, that's what happened, but good lord did i not know how bad things could get several years down the road. here's something i wrote after only knowing her for a couple hours. i wouldn't see or even talk to her for 3 whole years later, when we actually started dating...

she's got these green eyes, that cut through you with no attachments

she has long golden hair, yeah, but now she dyes away her past, and

if you don't love yourself, how can i love you more?

men work for her affection, but she don't think she's worth the chore.

i just want to get to know you, don't care about your past

but you're a broken beauty, that hides herself in black

[chorus]

just let me treat you bad

best bad you ever had



red flags all over that damn song.   years later her exact response when i sent her the song via email: "you know, i was thinking about my reaction to the lyrics. i guess i was just kinda shocked that you saw that in me after just a few conversations. i do like it though... "

[Tolou]

Nice post:

For me: I think the reality of the matter is, why did I spend my time trying to figure out this other person?  When the truth is I needed to figure out myself.  Most diificult part of leaving my partner no matter how difficult and heart wrenching it was, I knew it was the healthiest thing for me to do and ironically as it was for her.  Instead of spendign so much of this time worrying about another person and speculating what they may or may not be diagnosed with, learning to know ourselves is what is the most important things we can do in life.  knowing our limits, our boundaries and lenghts.  Sometime when you try to help someone and you can't you have to draw a line at how far you are willing to go before you lose part of yourself in the process.  Love is about compromise, compromising is hard to do with someone who is not reached the emotional maturity of an adult.

Maybe we have something that can be "labeled" by someone else, non of perfect, from non-BPD, to BPD.  Sometimes part of love is also letting go and just wishing the best for someone.  Just as much we want them to take accountability and responsibility for their actions, we need to do the same for our own.  No one forced us to get into these realtionships or the duration we chose to stay, through make ups and break ups.  One could argue that if they have a mental illness, and we percievd eventually what was going on as "abnormal" why in the world did we continue to stick around, or let them back in.  I think the harsh reality sets in when we need to start working on what may be goign on within ourselves thats the challenge

[hergestridge]

I've been thinking about this lately. I am not co-dependent in the classic sense. I have refused to take part in the "dysfunctional" dance (because I know perfectly well what is healthy behvarior/life and what is not) on so many ocassions, which las caused my BPDw to punish me in horrible ways.

But why do I stay? And why did I stay to begin with 20 years ago when I realized a few days after meeting my wife that something was wrong? Why?

Somedody posted an article here somewhere on this forum about BPD nons being narcissists. I didn't think it made sense until i started reading a bit more about narcicissism.

My theory is now that I have narcissistisc traits. I think very highly about myself, about my talents and believe myself to have huge potential for a lot of things (sometimes unrealistically I suppose), and I expect others to be the same. That is narcissistic thinking. I don't expect special treatment and act degrading towards others and all that, so I don't have the full personality disorder (thank heavens!).

When I met my wife we were both very young. I saw myself as a very flawed person who had great plans in life, and I made the mistake of thinking the same thing was true for my (future) wife. We both had angst, but that's where the similiarities ended.

As the years I never gave up my dreams. I slowly worked myself towards the goals I had set up although the was no financial reward and there was years without little or no progress. I built self confidence, took on challenges (jobs etc) and dealt with the problems that arose. I grew and developed in a way I think is rather unusual. I take great pride in gaining knowledge and expanding my intellectual horizons. When I was 22 I just pretended to know stuff (I'm 40 now). I have never settled and thought "This is me today and I'm ok". I have always seen myself and a painting that is not yet complete.

When I met my wife I assumed she was on the same journey. Had I taken her at face value then, I wouldn't have stayed for a second. For me it natural to assume that she was going to work on her unpleasant traits, that all people went through a transformation where their initial state was gruesome (as I saw myself - but with potential!) and the final destination was perfection. I don't think I tried to change her (she's much to stubborn for that), but I patiently waited for change. Year in, year out.

I did the same thing with some of my earlier girlfriends and they backed off, feeling intimidated. I gave them full attention and care, but at the same time I criticized them for anything that I thought could be bettered about them, assuming they were on the same self-improvement trip as myself. It worked with my wife, because she just didn't listen I suppose... .

I think I have matured and today I can accept people a bit more as they are. If I were to go into a new relationship I would be less criticizing, but I would also be more observant on wether my needs are met or not.

I think it would be useful to be my myself for a time. In a relationship with a BPD you're always made out to be worse than you are. I sometimes wonder what I'm really like.

[Monarch Butterfly]

I was an independent person, loved adventures, lived overseas by myself at 18, didn't need anyone in my life, was happy by myself... . I used to be a healthy non. I do not have FO issues. I was raised with  exceptionally good parents and have warm and loving childhood memories. So I do not fit the criteria.

On the other hand, I have changed. I am not health any more.

Why did I stay then, despite all the stuff I went through? Well, I believe in working at things before giving up. I think people have a right to make mistakes, and I'm far from perfect too. I believe that marriage is for life and I promised to love him till death due us part. I really believe (and still do) that through marriage and love two people can actually become one. They bond, relate, grow, inspire... . I promised to cherish him in sickness and in health. I worked harder and harder to make this relationship survive. I knew he was difficult, and in my mind, that was all there was too it.

I found a way to handle the abuse, which, I might add, is the worst possible way. I stopped living my life to live his. But looking at he positive side, the rages were minimized. I did not go through what some went through because I bowed by head, bowed it all the way to the ground. I thought I was doing a greater good to avoid conflict than to cause it by asking for something that was important to me. I stopped living.

I had boundaries and he broke all three:

     (1) if he hit me I would leave. He never hit me, so I never left. He did worse... . but I never had consciously understood that there are other types of abuse. And he did every single one of them. His abuse was so wide ranged. So narrow-minded on my part, I might add.

     (2) He would let me have a life of my own: work, church, friends... . The day he trapped me in, I'd leave. That one was replaced little by little with his master mind convincing me that all those things were harmful to our relationship. He put things in such a way I would agree to let go of them. UGH!

     (3) He never cheated on me. Well, never until I found out. And when the mask fell off I saw it was 14 yrs of cheating. This was my eye-opener. I am out the door, baby. Hasta la vista!

I am no longer a healthy-non, but I am working on that. Somewhere inside me is that same girl that has managed to survive these 17 years and is going to be let free, desiring desperately to feel alive.

So when I read stuff that only co-dependent people stay with BPD`s, first I deny it, but then I can somewhat relate. I was not like this before. My staying had more to do with my own views of what marriage should be. To make the marriage survive, I made myself co-dependent and am trying to fix that now... . but that resulted of almost 2 decades with this man.


Or maybe I'm in "mega victim mode" and cant see straight... . Who knows?

[goldylamont]

i know this thread is older but wanted to acknowledge the posts by hergestridge and Monarch Butterfly - I can identify with much of both of your stories.

hergestridge i totally identify with your perception of self as having high self worth and expectations for the future. i share the same and also when i was younger i feel like i projected this onto others feeling that they may feel the same. i enjoy the way i am and am glad to feel this way, yet i fully realize now that there's other successful and fulfilling ways to live life. and i've learned to not project my own values so much onto others.

when i think back on my r/s with the ex i don't know so much if i were projecting on her to be 'more' per say than she was? i mean, say career-wise or what she was doing in life. i was ok with where she was at in this regard and kind of kept my ambitiousness as my own thing. perhaps i had matured a bit since i was in my 30's when we met at this point, i dunno. i think in a dangerous way i grew to feel that the difficulties in our r/s were 'normal' tough times, almost like they were simply growing pains that could occur in any long term r/s.

as Monarch Butterfly noted i had my boundaries but instead of them being broken it just seemed that over time they got rusted all over from the corrosive environment... . started little leaks here and there that were hard to detect, but then all the sudden it was like "um, why is the floor damp with rusty water?" it was a slow deterioration that i needed to become aware of rather than any single event that could would stand out and yell "abuse!". in fact, i remember setting a boundary in the middle of the r/s where i was worn thin of her accusing me of cheating or wanting to be with other women. i told myself that if this didn't get any better then i would have to leave--well, guess what, it got better! so that's why i stayed. of course in the end it all fell apart, but i felt mostly aware of how much i could take, yet i was totally unprepared for how far she could take it.

it's so complex because i can think of plenty of times where i feel she was truly forgiving when i had messed up. i can even think of brief flashes where (ghasp!) she admitted to being wrong? (oh my!)   but what was most difficult was realizing the overall arc of her personality was just, not good.

and Monarch Butterfly i don't think nearly anyone could conceive that their SO is a pathological liar. you know? i mean sure we may have projected some stuff onto our exes or overlooked some things that now seem more obvious. however, and this is something i feel like i've learned just about humanity in general--i don't think anyone could predict or understand what it's like to be around a pathological liar unless they actually were in a r/s with one. The tendency is for people to feel like they would know for sure if someone were being untruthful to them. However I think the reality is that without the first hand experiences we've had you just could never tell. i think it's this gap in understanding that makes us (people in r/s with PDs) feel so isolated. we want to yell "It could have happened you You Too! You think you would know but ya wouldn't until it's too late!"  at least this is the way i feel.

years ago if i met someone with abandonment issues, self esteem issues or history of past abuse, i would think to myself that perhaps this person is suffering from depression and i could be ok around them if i kept my eyes open. now, i'm more likely to feel the same but also think "and also this person could be a sadistic pathological liar". it's rare i see people in this light but this is the link i see in the behavior.

[Jayhawk21]

2) Someone dealing with FO (Family of Origin) issues -- meaning that you are with a BPD because of traumatic child experiences that attract you to pwBPD.

1.I have issues with fear of abandonment and control.

2. My BPD connected with that lonely boy inside. (She told me so)

3. I had issues with self esteem, self worth (WIP).

4. I am a caretaker through and through.

5. I am co-dependent.

These things all fed into my 3 year r/s with my pwBPD.

I also have issues with the "Beautiful

This is exactly me.