Public Assistance for X, Lack of Filing CS With Court, Am I Liable?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My X doesn't want to file anything with the courts regarding 50/50 custody. There is the stubborness, guilt, along with a cultural component playing into this. I had already laid out to her the guideline amount I would pay her (I make about 2.5x her salary), but she backed it up a fwe hundred $/mo, still wanting me to pay for their college funds, and to keep the house (which is mine). Thus, she wanted me to pay her less than guideline. I fear no flight risk or anything like that, but other issues (like her mental instability), I am still mulling over... .but that may be for another post (she had a manic depressive episode the other day after only spending 3 hours alone with the kids. Since she still lives with us, she retreated to my bedroom to sleep it off, sobbing, while I watched the kids. Very concerning to me).

She did apply for public housing assistance, put down that the father wasn't paying CS (no court order), so she was already approved by at least one complex. She is on several waiting lists.

My concern is that without a court filed CS agreement, can the public housing authority (we are in the Bay Area, California), ever come back and "get" me to pay them the difference? Her lying on the app is her issue, I think (I will always pay by check), but I am concerned that they will not count "gifts" to her and come after me later for the whole amount.

I have verified with several lawyers that they can't ever come back on me for CS if there is no court filing, so I am relieved at that. I am, however, more scared of some bureacratic government agency coming after me more than a court. Does anyone have any insight to this? I posted on avvo, and got two conflicting responses. I am going to schedule a consult with one of then, however, very soon... .

I am also debating going for majority physical custody, which is the pattern over the past year (me watching S3 and D1 more than she does), but since she lives with us, that might not count. Agreement or no, I just think I will end up with them more, which is fine with me, leaving aside all legal financial concerns. Thanks for any advice and insight.

[Turkish]

My X doesn't want to file anything with the courts regarding 50/50 custody. There is the stubborness, guilt, along with a cultural component playing into this. I had already laid out to her the guideline amount I would pay her (I make about 2.5x her salary), but she backed it up a fwe hundred $/mo, still wanting me to pay for their college funds, and to keep the house (which is mine). Thus, she wanted me to pay her less than guideline. I fear no flight risk or anything like that, but other issues (like her mental instability), I am still mulling over... .but that may be for another post (she had a manic depressive episode the other day after only spending 3 hours alone with the kids. Since she still lives with us, she retreated to my bedroom to sleep it off, sobbing, while I watched the kids. Very concerning to me).

She did apply for public housing assistance, put down that the father wasn't paying CS (no court order), so she was already approved by at least one complex. She is on several waiting lists.

My concern is that without a court filed CS agreement, can the public housing authority (we are in the Bay Area, California), ever come back and "get" me to pay them the difference? Her lying on the app is her issue, I think (I will always pay by check), but I am concerned that they will not count "gifts" to her and come after me later for the whole amount.

I have verified with several lawyers that they can't ever come back on me for CS if there is no court filing, so I am relieved at that. I am, however, more scared of some bureacratic government agency coming after me more than a court. Does anyone have any insight to this? I posted on avvo, and got two conflicting responses. I am going to schedule a consult with one of then, however, very soon... .

I am also debating going for majority physical custody, which is the pattern over the past year (me watching S3 and D1 more than she does), but since she lives with us, that might not count. Agreement or no, I just think I will end up with them more, which is fine with me, leaving aside all legal financial concerns. Thanks for any advice and insight.

[marbleloser]

They can get the money out of cs,if and when you have a court order. You shouldn't have to pay directly. Don't agree or pay her anything until you have a court order.If the kids need something,buy it and take it to her,and keep the receipt.

You don't want to establish status quo of giving her money to live on.

When we were given the court order,stbx never told the housing authority.So,she was committing fraud and admitted it in deposition.After that,I went to the housing authority myself and showed them. They increased her monthly payment to maximum,but I'm not sure if they did anything else.

[marbleloser]

Wait until she moves out. Then when you have the kids(the first day!),file for divorce with exclusive use of the home,the children returned to the marital home,child support,alimony,and primary custody.

Trust me. You'll save yourself alot of headache by doing this.

[Turkish]

 We aren't married,  but that is an interesting point about waiting until she moves out to file. I  don't know about primary custody,  but I suppose I could make it close to 50/50.  it's not adversarial at this point,  though by definition,  the process is exactly that.  The previous lawyer wanted me to get her to sign while I was still in the home while she is somewhat stable. I  have the good grades of her family now... .  they watch the kids,  don't agree with what she has done,  but they are her blood.  I  care about that only insofar as the kids are concerned,  to not upset their lives too much.  they already think it's normal mommy is gone so much.  like night getting late off work,  calling to to see if the kids were fine,  then asking if she could go get her hair done.  of course she didn't get home until after I  put them to bed.  priorities!

[marbleloser]

You need to be documenting your time with the kids. With photos. Everything will change when you file. You'll be scum of the earth to her and her family.

Are you on the birth certificates as the father?

[Turkish]

You need to be documenting your time with the kids. With photos. Everything will change when you file. You'll be scum of the earth to her and her family.

Are you on the birth certificates as the father?

Yes. I  think I remember signing the declaration of paternity at the hospital as well. I  know I will become scum  if I go for majority physical custody. I  photo the kids pretty much whenever I have them alone,  keep a  physical journal.  there is an off chance I might be able to convince her... .  since unofficially,  I'll physically have them more anyway,  based on her behaviors and things she says she wants to do.  if not for the public housing thing.  I'd be willing to do it unofficially for a time. I  will do a consult with another lawyer to see what my options are to force this to be filed with the court. I  always have the option of trying to ask for psych evals.  She is somewhat unstable now ( only I see it,  her mom might sense it),  but she will get bad once she leaves.  she's even admitted it.  trying to not make this public is her worry. I  don't really care,  but I  want what's best for the kids.  escalating drama certainly isn't it,  but this is life.

[GaGrl]

If you have no court order, you have no leverage if she does something with the children when she has them... .like move them to another city or state, or change their schools, or move an unsavory character into her apartment. You have nothing to show the police should she arbitrarily decide NOT to honor an exchange or holiday.

I think you are counting far too much on her continued stability.

[Turkish]

If you have no court order, you have no leverage if she does something with the children when she has them... .like move them to another city or state, or change their schools, or move an unsavory character into her apartment. You have nothing to show the police should she arbitrarily decide NOT to honor an exchange or holiday.

I think you are counting far too much on her continued stability.

I know... .the weird thing is that she is trying to keep me in her life and her family's life as much as possible, not changing much for the kids. Everyone (friends who know her, our T... .the one she quit going to) thinks that court order or no, she will just let me have the kids more. Based on her plans, she's all but telegraphed this. Holidays would be a no-brainer. All of my family and friends are out of town. If I don';t have them on a specific day, I don't care (I am taking them out of town three days starting Christmas Day... .her family's cultural tradition is to celebrate it on Christmas Eve. It wasn't even an negotiation to agree to that).

I did contact an att, one that responded to me on avvo. Bite the bullet, force it, and force her to act like a grown up. To heck with the cultural attitude in our part of town to do everything under the table and in the shadow of the law.

[marbleloser]

It'll all change when someone mentions alimony and child support in her ear. Don't depend on her good graces. This is one time we HAVE to protect ourselves and kids. No one else will care. And,Gagrl is right. With no court order,anything goes. It's the wild west. You need to make sure you get the birth certificates.

[Turkish]

It'll all change when someone mentions alimony and child support in her ear. Don't depend on her good graces. This is one time we HAVE to protect ourselves and kids. No one else will care. And,Gagrl is right. With no court order,anything goes. It's the wild west. You need to make sure you get the birth certificates.

we're not married. I  have the birth certificates in my safe,  and can get them from the county if I  needed to anyway.

[marbleloser]

You're living together. She'll be asking for alimony.It's called "partner support" in this case. She is the mother of your children,who sacrificed her life to be with you,and you wouldnt marry her.

See how that works? Wait till a lawyer gets involved.

[Turkish]

You're living together. She'll be asking for alimony.It's called "partner support" in this case. She is the mother of your children,who sacrificed her life to be with you,and you wouldnt marry her.

See how that works? Wait till a lawyer gets involved.

In  California,  everyone says nothing like palimony.  Still, I want her out.  Bring narcissistic,  she didn't wants things to come out about her.  They will if she tries to fight me.  large town,  but small community.  I  wouldn't defame,  her,  things would just come out,  and she is paranoid about keeping her good mother image.  I'll report beck in a few weeks after I hopefully see the lawyer and decide the best way to proceed.  we get along fine... .  for now.

[ForeverDad]

I  know I will become scum if I go for majority physical custody.

You may become scum no matter what you do (or don't do).  Predictably unpredictable and consistently inconsistent.  More or less she will do whatever she feels like doing in her Mood of the Moment.

On the positive side, it sounds like she's not that attached to the kids?  (At least now.  In the future when legal issues arise, watch out, it could go either way.)  She lets you do most of the parenting?  That's good.  Too many here have had to deal with overly possessive and overly entitled parnets and that's a real challenge.

but I want what's best for the kids.

That is what you need to remember over the years.  The children need a good example of parenting, even a good example how you deal with your adult relationships too, don't teach them to be passive appeasers.  Validation of reality is crucial.  When they come to you expressing their observations about the differences between you and their mother, don't pooh-pooh their objective observations, VALIDATE them though without causing their mother to overreact of course.  They will need good skills and a knowledge of the differences between fact and distortions, good boundaries versus blame-shifting, etc.

[KateCat]

In  California,  everyone says nothing like palimony.  

Wasn't California the state of the original "palimony" case of Marvin v. Marvin?  . . . . Or are attorneys you have consulted saying that the facts of your case don't fit the "palimony" profile?

[scraps66]

Careful doing anything by check, especially if giving her the check.  My ex took myaccount inof off chekcs I was giving her, and paid bills over the phone.  May not be an issue if not married, but I would still not be revealing any info like that. Also, about CS, the one good thing about having it paid through the state is there is no way to be accused of not paying.  It is my understanding, regardless of what records you may have, a woman (or receiver of CS) can "say" that she has not received any child support and you woul dhave to pay.  I know that sounds odd and unbeleiveable, but I was told by PACSES that, if i give her money directly, she "does not have to say she received it."  Nice. 

[Turkish]

Careful doing anything by check, especially if giving her the check.  My ex took myaccount inof off chekcs I was giving her, and paid bills over the phone.  May not be an issue if not married, but I would still not be revealing any info like that. Also, about CS, the one good thing about having it paid through the state is there is no way to be accused of not paying.  It is my understanding, regardless of what records you may have, a woman (or receiver of CS) can "say" that she has not received any child support and you woul dhave to pay.  I know that sounds odd and unbeleiveable, but I was told by PACSES that, if i give her money directly, she "does not have to say she received it."  Nice. 

The lawyers I've talked to have said that she could never go for unpaid back support without something filed with the court.

As for the palimony thing, that involved a large sum of money. Everyone has said, "nothing you owe her without marrige." Still, she feels intitled to some money on the way out.

I am going to file, and if she doesn't like it, then oh well. If she feels guilty about me not putting into the kids' college funds, then I can certainly offer her to either give me cash back, or to contribute herself. All of this under the table, avoid the government stuff I sympathize with, but in this case, she needs to grow up. I am doing nothing unfair by going by guidelines. If she is worried I'll lose the house and have nothing to leave the kids, then that is her problem in her mind due to her still having issues with coming to America dirt poor and living like that for many years. I lived way poorer than she did, and I don't have those issues. I look on it as a life lesson in frugality to pass onto my kids so they handle money well. I think she fears that she doesn't manage money as well as I do, but again, grow up!

I will also look at eviction options after I hopefully can get her to sign something, because she still feels entitled to a few thousand dollars of "seed' money on the way out (depsite her not paying me back anything for "rent" and hardly any groceries and no utilities in the past 4 months). The best I can say to that is a cash exchange to keep some of the furniture she bought that she doesn't want to take (Itold her to take it, but she won't), but those are personal issues we will deal with.

[ForeverDad]

Obstruction.  Confrontation.  Inconsistency.  Unpredictable.  Sabotaging.  Blaming.  Blame shifting.  Rewriting history.  Cognitive distortions.  Rants and rages.  Easily triggered into overreactions.  Etc.

She may be all, some or none of the above.  We can only share with you what the typical patterns are, how to avoid as many of them as you can and how to handle the rest so you minimize the risk of painful legal and parenting consequences.  If she's entitled and confrontational like a queen* or witch*, then all of the above are possible.  If she's more like a hermit* or a waif*, then maybe fewer.  Sometimes you just don't know until it happens, so be prepared for either outcome.

* See the basic types described in Christine Ann Lawson's book Understanding the Borderline Mother - Helping Her Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship .

[Turkish]

Obstruction.  Confrontation.  Inconsistency.  Unpredictable.  Sabotaging.  Blaming.  Blame shifting.  Rewriting history.  Cognitive distortions.  Rants and rages.  Easily triggered into overreactions.  Etc.

She may be all, some or none of the above.  We can only share with you what the typical patterns are, how to avoid as many of them as you can and how to handle the rest so you minimize the risk of painful legal and parenting consequences.  If she's entitled and confrontational like a queen* or witch*, then all of the above are possible.  If she's more like a hermit* or a waif*, then maybe fewer.  Sometimes you just don't know until it happens, so be prepared for either outcome.

* See the basic types described in Christine Ann Lawson's book Understanding the Borderline Mother - Helping Her Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship .

She's more hermit/waif. Some Queen tendencies, but not aggresively so. She is in a lot of guilt now, and likely will remain there, as well as having the narcissistic tendency to not want the whole truth to come out into public, preferring to portray herself as the "unloved waif" publicly (she did a bit to me last night, and I shut the conversation down, as I usually do when she occasionally tries to bring up things from our r/s). If I were much younger and more immature, I'd probably rise to the bait. She doesn't realize that some people see through her FB posts (I blocked her over a month ago, got tired of seeing the validations and the selfies), but that isn't my concern anymore.

I try not to engage her now, which is hard. And we even did a family function this last weekend, and spending time together was "ok" for me. I'm past grieving for losing her (took me three months), and more towards protecting myself and the kids. I don't engage, so we don't fight. I let a lot of things go, and sometimes she is just silent when I point out if her behaviors continue to hurt me. She is in T, but with an HMO, so it's only abou once a month. I'll support her insofar as her journey, due to the kids. She knows that, and she says I am the only one she talks to regarding these things (depression, the "attachment" disorder, or "sickness" she thinks she has). I walk the line between being compassionate and patient, without being a carpet. I think things will get worse for a little while (for me dealing with the logistics and legal issues), then better quickly. We seem to co-parent well, and she takes my gentle criticisms of the way she was with the kids sometimes well. She even told me 3 weeks ago to tell her if I thought she was getting unecessarily angry with the kids. I need to keep this trust part of the r/s, let my own pain go, and be the adult... .which means doing this legally and fairly for all of us.

thanks for the ongoing words of wisdom, ForeverDad, and to all of you. I hope I don't seem combative sometimes, I'm just trying to work through it.

I will also start reading and preparing myself to protect the kids in a non alienating and loving way. I've already seen a few signs of the devaluations start towards S3, due to him being more emotional (like her, but he's 3), and also since he is a "man" given her mistrust of men in general (ultimately worthless, cheaters, always let me down in my life, the usual... .).

D18 mos seems ok, and has attached to me strongly all of a sudden. I do "handle" them better, and they tend to be calmer with me. My X observes this, so it's good she realizes it. Might just be a dad thing, too, though. I grew up with a single mom, so I don't have personal experience of having two parents, together or not.