I can't seem to validate, help please

[elemental]

I was giving boyfriend space after our argument. Or more truthfully, he was giving himself space by leaving our home and staying at his mom's, blocking me on skype IM and refusing to answer phone or texts. He left facebook chat open.

I initially tried to talk to him, but got zero response. So I found here and started reading and wanted to learn some new things while he is giving me the silent treatment.

On Christmas day, while I was out, he came into the house and put up a tree, and decorated it. We didn't get one put up due to the argument before Christmas. He also left a gift for me, a lovely pendant.

So I went to facebook and wrote him a thank you. So he puts a couple of chat emoticons back at me. And I feel better and think we are going to talk. As it turns out, we are not going to talk. After a few of those icons back and forth, I said to him "you really can't just talk instead, ?" And he came back very nasty and said, really, he couldn't because when he gets the impulse, he remembers my outburst at him and all urge leaves him.

I wanted to validate that. I really did want to, but all I could do was sit there, kind of frozen up, thinking about all of the things he has done... .the cheating with his ex, the stuff with the kids and about a dozen other awful things.

And I felt ( for myself) that the argument we had, that he was really ugly to me prior to it and I took it very hard at the time.

Partly because I have let myself get run down. I am a diabetic and I let my daily health degrade badly by not eating, which leads to exhaustion, nervousness. My blood sugar when I finally realized there was a problem and AFTER the discord, was 3 times normal. I only found out in the last few months I have it and I guess I was continuing my old habits of not eating without realizing it.

The cheating was and is a really big thing to me. I haven't gotton over it, he has not been particularly supportive and is impatient with any fear or anxiety I show and he insists we MOVE ON or he can't be in a relationship with someone who is living in the past.

I don't feel good about that demand and implied threat posed as a boundry.

So having read here, I thought I could use some of the tools. I guess I am not good at it so far. Like I said I WANTED to validate him. I realize for him, he is keeping the reasons for WHY I lost it on him out of the picture and purely focusing on what I said when I was upset and he feels very hurt and angry.

He is not satisfied with an apology and validation that I was hurtful to him. ( and he was being really horrible to me... .lesson learned here so far on BPD family, I didn't do, which was simply remove myself. Instead I stayed it escalated and I lost it. )

I feel I was sucked in on Christmas, when I would have been leaving him alone to do his thing *space*. This evening I just sat there and thought of all of the things he probably wanted to hear. He was so angry at me. I started to JADE, got about 6 sentences out, and stopped. By then he had disappeared again. Obviously no intention of listening. I felt scared. It's this constant threat of running off and leaving and silent treatment. It really gets me bad. So I just said "hugs" to him and logged out of facebook and came here to be advised.

I guess I am confused at the tree, the gift, then when I say something being smacked for it. I just sat there feeling like I am being manipulated into taking responsibility for something not completely my fault, manipulated into begging and pleading. Which I really resent doing since basically he was being abusive to me and I got upset from that. And I know blaming back and forth won't help. I just don't know what to fill that space in with.

Atm, I feel like crawling away somewhere. I want to take my facebook page down and just drop off of the face of the earth. I love him, but atm I am kind of hating him for making all of this so hard.

Advise me please.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Seneca]

Zencat,

I am so sorry for the way he is dragging your emotions through the mud, trying to elicit some response from you that will temporarily make him feel like a worthy human being again. until he doesn't... and puts you through this all over. My suggestion is to say nothing and let him come back to you... .even if that is three weeks from now.

My other suggestion is that you read back your post, and imagine someone else wrote it. What would you say to her? What do you see in her? What I see is someone who loves somebody who treats her like chewing gum on the bottom os his shoe, desperately. Now, I am not advocating you get angry and blame him, but accept the reality of HIM. He is sick, with a personality disorder he may never recover from. Meaning, if you keep doing what you are doing, your life may stay a miserable roller coaster for the rest of your life. Do you want that? Do you deserve that? What does Zencat deserve and want? Not - what can you have? What do you want? This is your life. You can successfully love someone with chronic BPD if you are realistic about who they are, are willing to do a lot of work to keep a modicum of peace in your home, and are able to protect yourself; your rights; your values and not lose yourself to his whims and the pain of his opinions. But that is a tall order.

In my journey, I am beginning by taking some inventory of myself and journaling to get the answers, so I can get a grasp on me - not just him. Some of the questions I've asked myself are:

- Why did I choose to get into a relationship with someone who treated me badly? Why have I stayed?

- What was my emotional state/ self esteem like when we got together? What is it now?

- What do I want in a relationship?

- What boundaries can I create to find more peace and sanity?

- What can I do to improve my self esteem, and myself?

- What are my expectations for a relationship with him? Is there any chance he could meet them?

What if you took this time away from him to stop obsessing over his behavior and examine YOUR choices, your role in this r/s, who you are and what you want and deserve? I know, this friggin sucks so so much. But it helps me to imagine myself at the end of my life. What if I died, and all I ever had was this lunacy, disrespect and uncertainty? Could I be happy with that? Would I be proud of that decision?    Be strong

[an0ught]

Hi elemental,

So having read here, I thought I could use some of the tools. I guess I am not good at it so far. Like I said I WANTED to validate him. I realize for him, he is keeping the reasons for WHY I lost it on him out of the picture and purely focusing on what I said when I was upset and he feels very hurt and angry.

you want to apologize so I suspect you need at one point in time express the "what" once. More than once and doing explanations of why you did it is just JADE. Validation would then focus more on his hurt, being upset, doubts about the relationship, frustration,... .

[connect]

Hi Zencat,


Oh space... .the lovely space... .   Yes I have been there lots. My BPDbf is particuarly partial to it. When he is overwehlmed, when he has too much stimulus, when he is asked to multitask, when we get too close, if I have a need I ask to be met. But I know your question was about validation - I am sympathetic to the space stuff though...

Validation can be hard when we are thinking of it in terms of what is "fair" as often the convoluted surreal rows are NOT fair. I use validation to stop making things worse. I have found I can only validate at a certain point. If he has gone too far down the rabbit hole then validate briefly and leave the situation. It sounds as if your guy is poking his nose above the edge and has seen an interaction back from you as hard for HIM to handle (this is not you - its not about you)

So a quick validation of his comment may perhaps look like "it can be horrible to feel that way" and then if you suspect he is spiralling again then wind down the chat.

Validation is good and does release some of the pressure - I found that it works best when they are not too dysregulated to get a good responce, other times I use it more as an exit the conversation startegy on as good a note as I can.

Hugs to you 

[joshbjoshb]

I am sorry to talk the way I do, but let me ask you:

If he is your BF, no kids involved, and he is treating you the way he does - why are you staying? What keeps you in?

[elemental]

I read through the back posts of some of the posters here, and you have all been through so much.

I can see that my boyfriend and I have been winding each other up.

I get the silent treatment as punishment from him for talking too much. He has directly said this. It's a nervous reaction on my part that I have been doing for about 2 years, since we got back together after his affair with the ex.

Probably most of the arguments wouldn't even happen if I can get that JADE ing under control.

If he is in a bad mood, he will typically retreat and be quiet. He likes to have me around during that, but he doesn't want to interact very much. If I respect that, he comes out of it and wants to engage more. If he combines that retreat with things with his ex and some drama erupts with her and it effects me and I myself get upset and talk a lot, he leaves, blocks me, turns off his phone, goes and stays at his mother's, and I get the silent treatment until he comes out of it.

Occasionally I get upset, then he becomes openly agressive, I have a hard time disengaging and we have an event like two weeks ago. For which I am held 100% responsible for because I ended up really lashing out.

Dynamic. I hate hate hate the silent treatment. I handle it much better these days, but it scares me a lot.

Waverider, I apologized 5 times over the past 2 weeks, including last night. He has not apologized once for his own part.  I agree with you at this point I have done that enough. I tried to validate him and show empathy: I know I hurt you, etc. Then I disengaged and have stayed completely away.

josh I am here because... .I love him. I see bright days, and then they spiral down. Mostly for preventable reasons on my side. I can also see if I develope habits of managing myself and self care, I will have more resilience. He has a lot of really great aspects to him, which I am not really talking about, so hopefully people understand I am in it for the good parts and want to help have more of those good parts.  Sadly this is going on right now and I don't know when it will end.  Usually something this severe takes 3-4 weeks for both he and I to be calm enough to pick back up.

So here I am I am going to use that time with as good effect as I can.

I believe I can sort my responses out mostly. As far as the problems with his ex, the kids and the overnights I am so uncomfortable with... .I don't see a solution that involves action from me. It really scares me when he does it , though.

Seneca, thanks for coming back. I went and read your posts.  I feel a kindred spirit to you on many levels. I too, have raged and fought, with bitter results. Over the last 6 months, I have managed to keep from doing that, but every once in a while, I lose it. You speak with such grace. My stepfather used to treat my mother disrespectfully in sexual ways in public. It was upsetting to watch as I was growing up, and mom really disliked it. It's very demeaning.


Connect, when I ask to have a need met,  my boyfriend is immediately resistent if it involves boundries. I can ask for time together and his answer is to smile and say yes, I can ask and get all sorts of things. When it specifically comes to asking him for really strong boundries with his ex, then I get the resistence and debate. I think they are still enmeshed. The unsorted custody issues are keeping them there.  

The validation for me... I feel like I am begging and he starts twisting it to prove power over me. The empathy leads to repeated and stated rejections of me and about how insulting I have been, how terrible, and he is superior or whatever it is. It's like I am sitting there with the "convoluted surreal" recalling all the lying and disrespect, gaslighting, some other really awful things and I am feeling like, is he for real, he is in this huge drama because I am upset at him for what he did. I am supposed to be kind and nice about it while he is cruel and scaring me.

I can see, though, that I can keep it from going down that far at ME and between US, if I am simply neutral and stay calm.

I still feel confused about the christmas thing he did.  

[frenchie]

I am just reading about this 'validating', and I too am afraid my BPDmom will just take it as patronizing and get angrier. 

[elemental]

my boyfriend does appear to get angrier, but I don't think it really is getting angrier long term, I think that he sort of blows off steam at that point because he feels I am safe or maybe sees me as in a weak position.  Then he calms more after it.

[an0ught]

I am just reading about this 'validating', and I too am afraid my BPDmom will just take it as patronizing and get angrier.  

it is normal that when you first hear about validation it feels odd. It feels particularly odd as we are not used to it - often part of it is being used to a less comforting, nurturing and healthy environment. When relationships become toxic the amount of invalidation increases a lot. Part of it because we have preconceived ideas what validation should be. In a healthy relationship the invalidating:validating ratio is 1:5 or better.

Adopting a more validating communication style is a change and of course it feels initially uncomfortable and there may be some anxiety about how others react. It is important to get this initial anxiety in us under some control as otherwise we radiate anxiety and that may well drown out any other emotions we voice - after all verbal communication is a lot weaker than tone of voice or behavioral communication.

my boyfriend does appear to get angrier, but I don't think it really is getting angrier long term, I think that he sort of blows off steam at that point because he feels I am safe or maybe sees me as in a weak position.  Then he calms more after it.

Getting the words right is a bit a trial and error. Each relationship has its own vocabulary. Immediate and strong negative reaction is a good indicator that whatever happened was invalidating. Don't beat yourself up - you just were handed a valuable piece of information - you got either the wrong words or your understanding of your pwBPD is way off. Maybe he is not happy but sad despite him having a smile on his face - now you look closer and realize the smile is forced... .And such events are real break-throughs! You made a big step of building a better map to understanding you pwBPD! Also the ratio of invalidating:validating (1:5 or better is good) matters a lot and simply from a maths perspective reducing invalidation is a powerful way to shift the balance.



Also keep in mind that validation is not knowledge but a skill. A skill is different from knowledge in that it requires real life practicing. It may take you a few days or a few weeks to get on the first level but if you continue working on it you will find that you still learn after years.

And if you are still mortified to try something new with your pwBPD - don't. Look for other innocent "victims" to experiment upon. There are plenty around - co-workers, boss, people you meet in a shop, your hairdresser... .You may also decide to be generous and go to the new member board and welcome a few new members in an empathic manner (I know, shameless plug   but it is a really good exercise). Learning validation is really worth the effort as it is a key life skill that allows you to connect to others more effectively.

[Surnia]

I would really like to underline an0ught's last thought about trying it out at other occasions first. My workplace is a really good learning field, little communications with neighbors. Sitting on a public place and hear other people vent: What could I tell him/her. Or just spot on in TV series. What is validation, what is invalidating.

For me important was to shift from "What can I answer in this situation" to "What emotion is here in play".

And if you are still mortified to try something new with your pwBPD - don't. Look for other innocent "victims" to experiment upon. There are plenty around - co-workers, boss, people you meet in a shop, your hairdresser... .You may also decide to be generous and go to the new member board and welcome a few new members in an empathic manner (I know, shameless plug  but it is a really good exercise). Learning validation is really worth the effort as it is a key life skill that allows you to connect to others more effectively.

[elemental]

I can try it out. I guess I was thinking I am such a newbie, I couldn't offer much. I can offer empathy.

I talked to him briefly this morning. He says he feels exhausted on all levels.  He's mentally, emotionally, and physically worn out and would like some down time to recover. He has vacation for the next 10 days, so I expect he would like that to himself.

I wanted to remind him that we are in a relationship and you don't run off on your partner for weeks at a time.

All sorts of JADE stuff came up for me to express. Like he has worn me out with his dramatic life too and I never walk off on him and he hurt me too, so why the big over the top production... .then I realized first how that invalidates, second,  I probably SHOULD be walking off a lot more to take care of my own self. In fact, I know if I said to him I was going to, he would not panic about it or be mean about it or offended.

Maybe I am the one with BPD traits.   

Anyway, instead of saying anything, I said ok, hope it goes well. Then I excused myself from the conversation. I feel very anxious about it even though he will probably be back in a couple of weeks. And I will learn new ways of handling things so we can minimize going down this path in the future.

I am going to go look for a few innocent victims to validate 

[DreamFlyer99]

Hi Zencat!

I know your post is primarily about validation in the r/s, but what I caught as an important thing I wanted to touch on is your health issue. I have Fibromayalgia, and it's pretty effected by stress like Diabetes is. My T is always finding ways to remind me that I forget to pay attention to my health when I get caught up in these similar emotionally charged and long-term exchanges with my uBPDh.

I've done what you have as well, where we keep reacting to whatever our loved one with BPD is doing/saying etc. rather than giving ourselves time to breathe, think, and then respond. I waste so much less time and so many less words and so much less energy when I remain in a more mindful state. When I can stop and think first rather than feeling I need to partake in the high-energy charged moments, I do so much better health-wise as well. I have less wild adrenaline surges taking away from me when I keep in a responding mode rather than a reactionary mode. When we are drawn into the drama we tend to reACT, and that's a less thinking way to do things, we are acting out of our emotions/fears/etc. When we take the pause to breathe, consider our words, we RESPOND, and it's a more thoughtful, more aware thing to do. And it will always help us more in the long run, both with our r/s and with our health.

And like validating, it takes practice practice practice. If we slow down to breathe and think first, it will be easier to use words of validation, cuz if you are anything like me, validation is not the first thought that pops into my reactionary mind!

[frenchie]

I'm just not getting it. To me, this whole validating thing seems like accepting abuse, or at best, living in crazy land?

[elemental]

I did let my health go. When my son went NC, I really lost track. I stopped eating mostly. I had not been diagnosed with diabetes.  I guess I passively wanted to die. I went from about 130 pounds to 90 pounds in 3 or so months.

The problems with my boyfriend intensified. He was  getting mad at me a lot and on one of his blocking rampages, he told me "I am blocking you now just like your son did!"  And he did.

My son blocked me briefly on facebook when we had conflict in August, then later unblocked but is giving me total silent treatment. My boyfriend didn't know I had been unblocked, so threw that nugget into the mix when he blocked me that time.

It was really devastating. I kind of have a double whammy here, due to my ex husband really manipulating my son. The ex husband has a long term grudge and I believe he is what is called a covert narcissist.

After mostly NC from boyfriend the  last 2 weeks, I have been trying to take better care of self.  So I hate the silent treatment but it is reminding me to focus on my stuff. 

And just to be honest, atm I am kind of feeling a lot of resentment. Frenchie, I get what you mean. It's like taking one for the team over and over as the person with possible BPD runs rampant.  There are 2 very strong feelings I have coming through this: humiliation over how I am being treated and that I intend to put myself in as good a position as I can to make it stop. In my own situation,  getting control of my anxiety and JADE stuff should make a big difference. One I can live with.

[DreamFlyer99]

Zencat and Frenchie--

i really want to clarify that validation does not mean that you are choosing to stand in front of that incoming flood and letting it knock you over and maybe even drown you... .

i know when we are getting used to the terminology and still fresh in our anger toward those who we feel so hurt by it's easy to miss the true goal of a skill. Believe me, I've been right there with you!

Some of what I've learned so far on bpdfamily is that i need to be aware of just who the person is that I'm dealing with. And actually my therapist is big on getting me to be aware of the truth of things in all parts of my life. And that means, accepting that your pwBPD is exactly who they are, with the traits they have, and the faulty beliefs they have. And we need to accept who we are as well--we have traits and faulty thinking and though we are trying to make things work in the r/s (relationship) we are both basically flawed people.

An example of validating from my recent (flawed) life is: at Thanksgiving at our oldest daughter's house, there was a misunderstanding that led to my uBPDh believing that i had made him look like an ___. My feeling was that he didn't need any help, but i kept that thought on the downlow.  Anyway, part of the whole conversation about it the next day involved how our grandson treated him so disrespectfully and after all my H had done for him blah blah blah. Now, I'm a fairly positive person. i choose to look at people from the view that there must be something good, therefore it has always made me inSANE when my H starts in on one of these rants. And i know i started to have that look and that sound in my voice when i get so bothered by "why does he always have to look at everything so negatively!" But then i realized, I AM ABOUT TO TOTALLY INVALIDATE HOW HE FEELS RIGHT NOW. ahah! So i changed my tune in my realization and said "You know what, you TOTALLY get to feel exactly how you want to feel! You are right, you do get to feel how you feel."

that was "validating." i realized that whether or not i agree with his feelings, feel he's stupid for his feelings, or wish he would just stuff those feelings, he does get to have those feelings. i mean, how we feel at the moment is how we feel at the moment. And all i was doing was saying "yes indeed you have these feelings and it's just a fact that you have these feelings." It wasn't as if i was saying, "You're right, our oldest grandchild is horrible and ungrateful." i was only validating that he HAD the feelings.

i could feel a huge sigh of relief and lowering of my husband's shoulders when i did that.

Does this make sense? Please ask if it doesn't. We still get to have our feelings and not have someone try to talk us out of them. i know my H will try to do that, or try to tell me i really feel something different, but i will just say neutrally, "no, i explained what my actual feelings in the situation were." and leave it at that.

The long term goal of validating is just simply that we accept that the other person feels however they feel, even if we don't agree with it. It's not an acceptance of their behavior, we still need to be prepared to give ourselves a time out if the conversation looks like it's gonna get heated. There's validation, and also boundaries.

This is interesting: Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

[elemental]

I do understand. I am doubting right now that he is much in a state to hear any of it and after the last day, I am probably not in a state to try because I feel upset again.

The new year came in and he wished me happy new year. 3 times. I replied back.

He told me he was working the "first days of the new year."  Normally he would have those days off, and every year I have known him until now ( 8 years) he has had those days off. So I feel anxious, because when he cheated on me with his ex, it started out this way around Christmas. He went and spent a week at her place and that is when it all really got going. And she has been chasing him in circles again, so it's triggering off a lot hurt and anxiety for me.

Which I have to try and manage myself because he is being whacky. I am actually almost believing he is back over staying with her and lying to me about work. It is what he did in the past. And I haven't seen him acting so low and depressed since he was doing that.

So he won't talk on phone. Won't open skype back up. Says he is on a business trip. You can probably imagine that I want to talk and be reassured.

I tried to validate that it was a bummer to have to work over the holiday. He read what I said and ignored me.

So I was on another IM we have and as soon as I logged in, he showed up. He read what I said to him and when I said I was really sad, he put a sad face, but otherwise refused to respond. How can I validate that, except by going away?

I realized we are trying to learn here to do what works rather than the same old ineffective stuff. But what people on this site say, it feels wrong  and counterintuitive.

Also, I am having some resentment. Dealing with his troubles effecting me is very hard. I have tried to process through a lot of things and set aside some things and simply accept others. He asks me to stay, here I am. Well where is he?

And I am probably venting and ruminating some, but these are the thoughts I have.

I decided not to put myself under the stress of trying to talk to him. He's not saying anything rude, he is just refusing to speak. I am not feeling particularly generous towards him atm in terms of his reasons for it.

[kelkay]

Zencat, I have been going through this for several years and I am in a bad place right now. He is not staying here, dont know if he will come back, the usual , I just do not know.

I am a diabetic and have been insulin dependent since age 9, without any problems. I am 44 now. The stress from him?  Has caused my blood sugar to flip flop so much over and over and over, I ended up in the hospital a month ago.  In intensive care. I know you are aware that you have to take care of yourself. Honestly, my BPD, or whatever he is can get so evil he probably doesnt care if I die.  He would not take me to the dr right before I was hospitalized. He goes from that to, "I didnt sleep much lastnight I was worried about your blood sugar".  That was one of the times I had to set my alarm to check my bl sugar because It was fluctuating so bad. I thought to myself, " who are you?"  He goes from black to white .

[elemental]

Hey Kellykaye, I hate that feeling of abandonment. It's like you figure probably at some point they will be back, but in the interim it's really stressful. My mother is diabetic and my two brothers are, too.

I found out I was in early last September when I passed out as I was leaving my driveway in my car. Fortunately I was going about 2 miles an hour and the car just rolled next door where the little town park is. Ran right into an oak tree, without any real damage to car or tree. And people were there who saw it so I was taken care of right away.

After being out on an errand today, over at mom's we checked my blood sugar. It was 385. I had spent part of my morning in tears and frustration after once again my guy decided he couldn't say one little word to me. By the time I hit mom's my head was spinning. She and I decided that I would just stop getting pulled into whatever he has going on right now. It's kind of easier to make a "pact" with her. She is immensely kind, has enormous personal dignity and high standards for herself. So when I get co-dependent, I ask myself what would mom do, and for sure mom wouldn't lower herself to fuss with him. I know it's a little funny, but it helps me stay on track.

I understand that he and I get to this point because I lose stability and get really upset.

I personally wouldn't ever give my loved one the silent treatment for weeks at a time, particularly after they apologized for their part in an argument. But he uses it on everyone when he feels really horrible.

I was thinking about Dreamflyer said about how she had the lightbulb moment of validating to her husband that he had a right to feel however he felt or wanted to feel. Not that she was saying he was right or she agreed with his feelings and so on. I think my  guy and I are kind of in a war over this. For example, he cheated on me, lied to me and I think he should feel like supporting me a lot and not stressing me and scaring me by staying overnight at his ex's. HE thinks he is trustworthy     and I am disrespecting him by being so upset.

Then I think he is full of crap thinking that way and I try to effect how he thinks because *I* think he is seriously effed up trying to get that over on me.


Before this argument, I said to him, look, it really scares me, would you please ponder some ways to handle it differently? The next visit he DID come home and not stay over. He was angry when he left his ex's, said about 4 sentences to me ( none of it very nice) then walked out on me in a rage.

So maybe he really was trying to do what I ask. I am so paranoid atm, that I am very cautious about believing a word he says to me because I feel the disappearances, silent treatment, passive agression is a breach in trust. I feel unsafe. I am pretty much not believing his story about a work trip. As soon as I asked about it and where it was, he gave me silent treatment and has refused to answer.

And maybe that is something for me to address in myself. I am not sure.

I have always found if I went absolutely quiet on him when he was giving silent treatment and staying at his moms, after about 10 days of that he starts wondering what happened to me and is generally happy to kiss and makeup. I just thought this time would be different because I handled it differently than in the past. I guess that is why I have been so disappointed.

[joethemechanic]

Zencat, they are kinda like dealing with feral cats. If you try to get them to come to you, it's best to ignore them and let their curiosity bring them to you.

The best cure for the silent treatment, is the silent treatment. If he doesn't answer your calls, go silent on him. When he finally calls you, don't answer. Say he gives you 2 days of silent treatment and then calls you. Wait about another day before answering his call or calls (And yes I know it's hard)

[elemental]

A few years ago when we were broke up, he would email me. I had really wanted to sort things out and he was hiding the fact of his pregnant ex from me and saying oh we are not meant to be 

He was trying to force himself to stay with her. So I would wait 4-5 days to reply. After a couple of months of that he was madder than heck at me. He did come back, and I guess that pretty much proves your point, Joe.

To bad he couldn't bring himself to be honest about his son's birth a couple of months later and left his ex to spring it on me.  :'(  And that is why I don't trust those overnights at the ex's when he goes to see the kids, even though he already traveled 2.5-3 hours to see them and to help me he has to leave and travel back the same amount of time. I keep getting upset because I feel I am being cheated on, and then I feel all guilty because traveling 6 hours in one day on buses and trains really is a long time.

oh well.