Can we talk about the abuse for a second?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I'm in excellent physical shape. She is stone fox. Man... the perfect storm.

Stick to your guns, Perfidy.  You are absolutely making the correct call here.  No pressure to date.  And this may be a hypersensitive generalization on my part, but I have a fair amount of experience to back this up - most younger women who are into older men, when there is such a huge gap in age, have issues.  I am 39, my ex is 20.  I was the caretaker.  And the only one with any qualms about our age difference.  Before meeting her I had an online profile.  I look very young for my age and am in good physical shape but, for me, that doesn't excuse girls who are 16-18 years old being the majority of those that contacted me without provocation.  Be wary of them, Perfidy.  In your tender state you will attract them as chum does the shark.

[stormcrow]

I'm in excellent physical shape. She is stone fox. Man... the perfect storm.

Stick to your guns, Perfidy.  You are absolutely making the correct call here.  No pressure to date.  And this may be a hypersensitive generalization on my part, but I have a fair amount of experience to back this up - most younger women who are into older men, when there is such a huge gap in age, have issues.  I am 39, my ex is 20.  I was the caretaker.  And the only one with any qualms about our age difference.  Before meeting her I had an online profile.  I look very young for my age and am in good physical shape but, for me, that doesn't excuse girls who are 16-18 years old being the majority of those that contacted me without provocation.  Be wary of them, Perfidy.  In your tender state you will attract them as chum does the shark.

[love4meNOTu]

Yes, you are right.

The anger was escalating. Every day it was worse.

I assume that if I had stayed, eventually it would have turned to physical abuse.

Thank you for helping me answer these questions.

L

[MrConfused]

I don't think it's a problem as long as you go into it telling her exactly what you want from it. If you don't want to date then that's absolutely fine, but there's no harm in going out and having fun (No, I don't mean sexually) with another girl. If she enjoys your company then you should take that as a good thing.

I have a close female friend that I'm just friends with. We both know exactly where we stand with each other, there's nothing awkward between us & it's great.

Set your boundaries with her & hopefully she'll respect them. If not, then you move on.

(Sorry! Bit of thread hjacking here!)

[Perfidy]

Perfidy-

Let me try to reframe this for you.

Let's say that I was crying because you had said something hurtful to me.

Would you hold me down so I couldn't get away from you so you could continue to verbally abuse me?

Nope, that's right. I didn't think so.

Not your fault. Defending yourself is a right, and you did so. When backed into a corner, we will strike back.

MrConfused has it right.

No I would not hold you down and continue. If you cry because I said something hurtful I would apologize and hold you until you stopped crying.

[Perfidy]

Umm... Realistically I wouldn't say anything to hurt you in the first place. But if you were crying I would hold you and reassure you everything is ok. I make conscious efforts to not be hurtful. What you described is disorder.

[Perfidy]

I don't think it's a problem as long as you go into it telling her exactly what you want from it. If you don't want to date then that's absolutely fine, but there's no harm in going out and having fun (No, I don't mean sexually) with another girl. If she enjoys your company then you should take that as a good thing.

I have a close female friend that I'm just friends with. We both know exactly where we stand with each other, there's nothing awkward between us & it's great.

Set your boundaries with her & hopefully she'll respect them. If not, then you move on.

(Sorry! Bit of thread hjacking here!)

I know. We're all over the map. Stupid emotions!

[Perfidy]

Love? Is this something that came up in your recent therapy?

[love4meNOTu]

Yep... .

It goes back to the fact that I blame myself for the demise of my marriage.

If only I could quit making him mad... .

Now that's funny, you've got to admit. Because me breathing would make him mad.

[myself]

It's taken me a long time to admit to myself that I was being abused. It's still difficult to do. Friends told me, more than one T told me, and many people here. I couldn't believe it, couldn't face it. I thought, she's not like that, she's just having a bad day. She had a horrible childhood, bad relationships before me, it's PMS. It must be something I did wrong. She worked hard trying to convince me that I was hurting her, not the other way around. I looked at myself and saw that I'm not abusing anyone else in my life. So why would I be like that with her? It's a terrible thing to admit the person I was in love with hurt me so much, and did so much of it intentionally. To unleash the demons she feels inside, and cover her tracks when she did. I do not believe her when she says I was abusive to her, going on the facts, but am having to believe she was with me.

It ended our relationship, and still hurts.

[free-n-clear]

What amazes me more is that you are both men, abused by women.

 My uBPDxgf was often violent when raging. Several times she tried to smash my nose with the heel of her palm, striking out in an upward motion that could potentially drive broken bone up into the front of the brain and prove fatal (or at least turn someone into a vegetable).

I've often wondered how many guys suffer such violence and are too ashamed to ever tell anyone?

[love4meNOTu]

It's taken me a long time to admit to myself that I was being abused. It's still difficult to do. Friends told me, more than one T told me, and many people here. I couldn't believe it, couldn't face it. I thought, She's not like that, she's just having a bad day. She had a horrible childhood, bad relationships before me, it's PMS. It must be something I did wrong. She worked hard trying to convince me that I was hurting her, not the other way around. I looked at myself and saw that I'm not abusing anyone else in my life. So why would I be like that with her? It's a terrible thing to admit the person I was in love with hurt me so much, and did so much of it intentionally. To unleash the demons she feels inside, and cover her tracks when she did. I do not believe her when she says I was abusive to her, going on the facts, but am having to believe she was with me. It ended our relationship, and still hurts.

myself... .

Yes, my x has accused me of abusing him too. I've never hit anyone in my life, I never even spanked my children.

My x also had a horrible childhood, and I made plenty of excuses for him. I still can't believe he said / did the things he did.

I understand how you feel, I still hurt too. It's going to take me awhile to forgive myself for marrying him.

Blessings,

L

[MrConfused]

Came up in mine as well. I couldn't (& like I said, I still struggle with it) stop blaming myself for the failure of the relationship. If only I'd not pressured her too much (I thought I was, I wasn't), if only I'd not argued with her, if only I'd let her retreat into her shell (yet again). If only I'd let her treat me like garbage for a bit longer, it might have worked out.

She worked hard trying to convince me that I was hurting her, not the other way around. I looked at myself and saw that I'm not abusing anyone else in my life. So why would I be like that with her?

Mine would say I wasn't hurting her, but it was blatant I was somehow. She'd never flipping tell me tho, but her actions would change or she'd randomly pull a tissue out & wipe away a tear. It was so bizarre (I use this word a lot to describe it now) & yes, like you I realised that I don't abuse anyone else in my life so why would I abuse or keep upsetting the person I loved?

She's not like that, she's just having a bad day. She had a horrible childhood, bad relationships before me

Yup, got that as well. I kept finding excuses to justify her behaviour towards me. It sorta worries me at times that I'm even on this forum, as even tho she matches a lot of what's said here, I still worry I'm here diag'ing her with BPD to justify the way she was towards me.

[Kadee]

Wow, it could have been me writing that. I feel your pain, I can associate with everything you said. Plus a few. I'm sure you have many more stories too. Hang in there. We can heal from this.

[fromheeltoheal]

All of this just shows me time and again what a completely screwed up home life these folks must have had growing up. To be so mean and full of chaos, it must have been total hell, and lucky us we get to share in that trauma in the here and now. Sometimes I think the world would just be a better place if all these jerks would just fcking die, but then again, it's more helpful to believe they are put here for a reason, we meet them at a time where there were lessons to be learned, and who better than folks who can deliver them with a bunch of psychic strife, just to drive the point home.

[love4meNOTu]

Wow, it could have been me writing that. I feel your pain, I can associate with everything you said. Plus a few. I'm sure you have many more stories too. Hang in there. We can heal from this.

Kadee-

Were you abused emotionally and verbally too?

No physical abuse? I know you were married for over 30 years. Did it get worse as the years rolled on?

L

[love4meNOTu]

All of this just shows me time and again what a completely screwed up home life these folks must have had growing up. To be so mean and full of chaos, it must have been total hell, and lucky us we get to share in that trauma in the here and now. Sometimes I think the world would just be a better place if all these jerks would just fcking die, but then again, it's more helpful to believe they are put here for a reason, we meet them at a time where there were lessons to be learned, and who better than folks who can deliver them with a bunch of psychic strife, just to drive the point home.

Fromhtoh-

I've cried out to God so many times.

Why me? Why did this happen to me?

One day I hope to have the answer. Regardless, I did not deserve it, neither did you.

L

[MrConfused]

All of this just shows me time and again what a completely screwed up home life these folks must have had growing up. To be so mean and full of chaos, it must have been total hell, and lucky us we get to share in that trauma in the here and now. Sometimes I think the world would just be a better place if all these jerks would just fcking die, but then again, it's more helpful to believe they are put here for a reason, we meet them at a time where there were lessons to be learned, and who better than folks who can deliver them with a bunch of psychic strife, just to drive the point home.

Fromhtoh-

I've cried out to God so many times.

Why me? Why did this happen to me?

One day I hope to have the answer. Regardless, I did not deserve it, neither did you.

L

At the very least, it hopefully teaches us not to put up with it in any future relationships. With any luck we'll see the warning signs and get the heck outta there before we get too attached ourselves. It sucks that we have to go through it when so many other people don't, but every has their own path & trials in life.

Will I ever allow myself to go through this pain again? I sure as heck hope not.

[Turkish]

No, no perfidy. I understand.

I pushed my x away with my feet one time when he was screaming at me while I was trying to get away from him on the bed.

He said he would call the police because I had abused him.

I understand.

What amazes me more is that you are both men, abused by women. I am so sorry that happened to you, no one deserves that.

Actually, you might have been legally justified in dong that. Verbal assault, and you performed the minimum physical action to stop it because you felt threatened, or that there was danger of escalation on his side.

[Ironmanrises]

Actually seeing with my own eyes my exUBPDgf personality splitting into 2 distinct personalities in the span of 10 minutes and the way she treated me in that time span was the pinnacle of the mental and emotional abuse I endured the entire time with her. That is the last image i have of her; as that other side The side that annihilated everything her original side, once loved.

[State85]

I'd like to weigh in on the abuse as well. My exgirlfriend also abused me. Emotional, verbal, and yes physical. I never hit her, but after 25 separate occasions of physical abuse I have shoved her... . and I hate that I did, I do. But she had no problems with what she did. The worse being bruised ribs, black eye, bit my ear bringing blood, throwing a cand hitting my head also bringing blood. And spitting. Did I call the police, of course not... . if she is capable of hitting me, she is more than capable enough of lying and telling the police I abused her... and who gets arrested... . me.

Did I get an apology, yes. But it was not sincere at all. And to this day she wants to be friends with me... . really? And if I bring up the abuse, I'm told it was in the past, let it go. I can't and won't.

And I know she is out tonight with one of her boyfriends... . and it hurts me... why, I wish I knew. People don't understand how I could allow this to happen and still care who she is with... . I wish I knew.

[Iwalk-Heruns]

I'm in excellent physical shape. She is stone fox. Man... the perfect storm.

Stick to your guns, Perfidy.  You are absolutely making the correct call here.  No pressure to date.  And this may be a hypersensitive generalization on my part, but I have a fair amount of experience to back this up - most younger women who are into older men, when there is such a huge gap in age, have issues.  I am 39, my ex is 20.  I was the caretaker.  And the only one with any qualms about our age difference.  Before meeting her I had an online profile.  I look very young for my age and am in good physical shape but, for me, that doesn't excuse girls who are 16-18 years old being the majority of those that contacted me without provocation.  Be wary of them, Perfidy.  In your tender state you will attract them as chum does the shark.

I would like to second this entire statement. The probability of this turning out bad is extremely high. We all talk about recognizing red flags early on. Personally I think this is a big one. She is way too young. I agree most healthy women do not date much older men(nothing against you perfidy) I think just a fact. When you are ready to date why not look for someone who is more your age? someone healthy, more in common.

And if your gut tells you you are not ready to date you are not ready to date. Don't be in a hurry to jump back in while you are still healing. Be alone for a while. Nothing wrong with that.

[Turkish]

I just had a conversation where she accused me of devaluing her, justifying her affair. I said I was tired of her verbal and emotional abuse (notice I admitted to devaluing her... . should have qualified that... . not that it would have mattered). She replied, " then you should have stood up to me." Yeah. The few times I did, it resulted in yelling matches... . I almost wish id found this site years ago so I could have worked with the communication tools. But no matter, it is what it is now.

Life.

[Clearmind]

I have regrets about not going to more counseling with him, and it is bothering me.

Process that regret love4m3. What is it that you regret and do you think that you could have changed this person? The answer would be a definitive no!

Your list is impressive for all the wrong reasons because that is not the way someone who loves you acts - so despite what you list we must start to firmly believe we did not deserve it, we could not have changed it because you cannot change another person, it's maybe what you don't want in a relationship and lastly begin to look at why is it you stayed despite it.

Why is it we believe that our relationships were about love? What is your definition of love and how its shown? There is a massive difference between "Threatening to just "up and leave" me one day" quoted by love4me and "Honey, thank you for being there for me today when I had a rough time" (Clearmind). What would you rather hear and why are we not dating men/women who say supportive and loving things to us - rather than hurtful banter followed by put downs, degrading comments and threats to walk out if they don't get their way? Are we scared and fearful of committed relationships? Are we scared of someone really loving us because we are then placed into a position of vulnerability (where true love/trust/respect stems from)? Are we scared to be with a healthy person who shows us love and respect - because we instinctively believe we don't deserve it? Why are we scared to show vulnerability? Why are we emotionally unavailable for a healthy minded person?

This answer lies within us... . not them. They are who they are they showed us so many times that there was no mutual respect, trust and love. So we can call them "psycho's" or whatever derogatory term we can think of and lay all the blame on the Borderline however what we really need to start to do is to exercise empathy and compassion - that is where the true healing begins.

Many of us live with deep shame about the demise of our relationship - we regret not being to make it better, we regret we made it worse, we feel shame for our own behaviour and mostly I felt regret for not being able to fix my ex. Its that shame thats causes us to split our ex's black - yes we can split too.

These are all things we need to process and its part of the grieving cycle. We also need to begin to look at why we were attracted and were blind sighted by a person with BPD. This is not their fault - we are all responsible for our own actions. Acknowledging our part, the part of us that stayed and begin the process of self inquiry as to what it is about us that drew us to a toxic relationship and what in fact we are grieving for.

Ever wondered how you can grieve for someone who was abusive?

hit

love4me - I'm very sorry you were subjected to abuse - its a common story here - look beyond it and find peace and the reasons for your attachment to an abusive man.

[Monarch Butterfly]

I was going to answer this but as I kept reading page after page, more  I got for me.

I stayed in my relationship for 17 years. Trying hard to leave now. He never hit me - that's why I never left. I didn't even know he was abusive (my T had to tell me) and your list is very very similar to mine. Identical actually.  He used guilt so much I never saw what he was doing, only what I was doing wrong.

But I can tell you for sure that my uBPDh never got better, just worse.

[love4meNOTu]

Thank you so much Monarch.

That is what I needed to hear.

If things could just have been different, if he just would have gotten some help.

I will have to live with it.

L

[Monarch Butterfly]

Yes, things could have been different. That hurts.

The lies could have been true.

The idealization phase could last forever.

But then, even if they are different from here on out, and if he'd go to years of therapy, what do I do with the past? He can forget it in a second. I cant... . I'd have to erase 17 years of memories that have scarred, healed, bleed and been stitched up.

It's way easier to start a new with someone else. And I'll love that person.

As for him, he reaped what he planted. That's how I see it.

[Iwalk-Heruns]

I have regrets about not going to more counseling with him, and it is bothering me.

Why is it we believe that our relationships were about love? What is your definition of love and how its shown? There is a massive difference between "Threatening to just "up and leave" me one day" quoted by love4me and "Honey, thank you for being there for me today when I had a rough time" (Clearmind). What would you rather hear and why are we not dating men/women who say supportive and loving things to us - rather than hurtful banter followed by put downs, degrading comments and threats to walk out if they don't get their way?

Are we scared and fearful of committed relationships? Are we scared of someone really loving us because we are then placed into a position of vulnerability (where true love/trust/respect stems from)? Are we scared to be with a healthy person who shows us love and respect - because we instinctively believe we don't deserve it? Why are we scared to show vulnerability? Why are we emotionally unavailable for a healthy minded person?

First paragraph.

I think this is what made it difficult for me in the relationship and part of why I stayed. One day he was saying things like "thank you so much for being there and being so loving and understanding. You are so good to me. I don't know what I would ever do without you. You make me want to be a better man. No one has ever treated me better. I love you so much... . "

Then one day he is raging at me telling me I'm a bi*tch etc. and that he is going to be gone one day. Over something stupid. Then he tells me later he doesn't mean it and doesn't know what's wrong with him. How do you put up with me etc. went to counseling etc for a while so seemed to try. Back and forth over sporadic times.

I think that's why they call it the CYCLE of abuse. Something happens to your brain and you get caught up in that cycle like a vortex that is so hard to pull yourself out of. INTERMITENT REINFORCEMENT happens. I think even if we are fairly healthy before these relationships something happens during them. They don't start usually right away. They are careful to hide it till they know you are hooked.

2nd paragraph

I'm sure it can be the case that we are subconsciously afraid of commitment etc. But I really don't think it is always that easy to explain. I have analyzed myself over and over honestly and I really don't think that's what it was. For all intents and purposes everyone thinks he is the greatest guy. He was. Until he wasn't.  Even my son until later when all the crap started thought he was amazing. By the time this starts your hooked and your head is spinning. Can't think straight. Just my feelings on why I stayed. I could be in deep denial but ... . I really think I want and am capable of a committed relationship and all that goes with that.

[Kadee]

Yes, emotionally and verbally. Me and both kids. Never physical, and both kids tell me never physical with them either. (I rarely left them alone with him, I think when I did, and they tell me this now, the verbal lashings were worse).

He told me I was stupid. Called our daughter a slut. Called our gay son a fag. The list goes on and on, uglier and uglier.

Even still, he blames me for his lack of relationship with the kids and begs me to fix it for him.

The straw that broke me was the 1am yelling spree that ended with "I know how to fix this, I'm going for the ammunition". I should have called 911, instead I put d in car and we left for a few hours (visited s who worked overnight hours at fast food). Next day I gave the guns to my pastor and the next asked for a separation (I've left out the part about all the yelling that went on in the meantime and the trip to the ER for d who was so distraught that she gave herself a concussion with her fist to her forehead). Of course this yelling was a little less volume because he lost his voice from the 1am spree.

He wonders why. And of course, it's still and always will be my fault, because he's "honestly done nothing to deserve being treated this way". "This way" is the kids having no contact by their own choice.

He still attacks (only by email now) on the full moons. (not kidding on the full moons). I'm healed enough now not to respond. And I also refuse to be manipulated into closing MY email address that I've had forever. So I've taught myself simply to not respond.

The dissolution is taking a long time because of his ridiculous unfair demands. It is, of course all about him.

So yes. Emotionally abused, verbally abused, manipulated. The scars are deep, but healing. Each day, the happiness and joy in my soul becomes easier to find.

And if leaving me alone an hour after bringing me home after major surgery to go to a cookout and watch fireworks is physical abuse, there's that too (I counted that as emotional abuse)

[Kadee]

Oh and to answer your question.

It either became worse over the years, or I became more and more aware of how bad it was. I'm still not sure of which.

[Turkish]

Oh and to answer your question.

It either became worse over the years, or I became more and more aware of how bad it was. I'm still not sure of which.

Could be a little but of both. Its amazing what we put up with. No one should have to go through those things. Your story is horrible, and I'm glad you got out with your children safely.