Kids Therapist Concerned with Ex,

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Regarding sessions or conferences... . Matt's case was somewhat subdued compared to yours.  Except for the incident where the police got involved and triggered their separation, his ex took the passive route and for the most part just took the path of non-response as her primary method to obstruct.

My case was different, I couldn't even sit in the same room with my ex after we separated.  In the ordered settlement conference back in 2007 she started to lunge across the table with fingers curled saying she would gouge out my eyes if I tried to get custody.  In front of both lawyers and in my lawyer's office!  So my settlement conference ended suddenly after about 5 minutes or so.  However, we were able to be in the court room together.  I think she felt less entitled, less in control, more monitored, in the court house environment.

Your case would probably be worse than his or mine.  I wouldn't suggest you be in the same room with her unless it was moderated in a mediator's office (separate rooms available in case she flamed out) or court environment.

[ForeverDad]

Regarding sessions or conferences... . Matt's case was somewhat subdued compared to yours.  Except for the incident where the police got involved and triggered their separation, his ex took the passive route and for the most part just took the path of non-response as her primary method to obstruct.

My case was different, I couldn't even sit in the same room with my ex after we separated.  In the ordered settlement conference back in 2007 she started to lunge across the table with fingers curled saying she would gouge out my eyes if I tried to get custody.  In front of both lawyers and in my lawyer's office!  So my settlement conference ended suddenly after about 5 minutes or so.  However, we were able to be in the court room together.  I think she felt less entitled, less in control, more monitored, in the court house environment.

Your case would probably be worse than his or mine.  I wouldn't suggest you be in the same room with her unless it was moderated in a mediator's office (separate rooms available in case she flamed out) or court environment.

[Matt]

Regarding sessions or conferences... . Matt's case was somewhat subdued compared to yours.  Except for the incident where the police got involved and triggered their separation, his ex took the passive route and for the most part just took the path of non-response as her primary method to obstruct.

Very true.

Which makes your ex's attorney critical.

If you can explain to her (the attorney) what options you are giving her client, and if she sees that her client will be better off with a settlement to all the issues - rather than facing you in court - the attorney may be obligated to advise her client to take (and abide by) a settlement that you design.

[Matt]

Another thought... . the therapist saying something to you, but not willing to stay the course... .

Hoping to save the marriage, my wife and I saw a marriage counselor (actually the last of four!) after she had filed for divorce.  We put the divorce on hold to give counseling a chance.

After meeting with us together, the counselor met with each of us separately.  When she met with me, she read to me from the DSM-4 - the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association (or something like that) - the "bible" of mental health.  The section she read was the criteria for diagnosing BPD.  9 criteria, if I remember correctly - we discussed each one as it related to my wife, and her view was, my wife had most of them - enough for a diagnosis.

She told me, "I'm not a Ph.D. so I can't diagnose anybody, but it seems to fit."  She urged me to read "Stop Walking On Eggshells", and told me not to tell my wife about this conversation - in her view, it would be best to try to get my wife into therapy without telling her, "I think you have BPD."

None of that worked of course - we spent several months tip-toeing around the issue until my wife made it clear that she would not get therapy, and I gave up, and re-started the divorce process.  I told my attorney all of this, and she told my wife's attorney.  They agreed to both talk with the counselor, who confirmed what I said, and that impacted the way the legal process went forward.

So... . what I'm wondering for you is... . if you can't get the T to come forward and say what she told you, maybe you can tell your attorney - in as much detail as possible - what the T told you, and tell her you are willing to testify to that.  Let your L tell the opposing L, so the opposing L will know what is going on, and will know that if she fights over these issues, sooner or later it will come into evidence, and can't be refuted.

If both Ls know the truth - what the T said to you - they may be able to work together to find a solution that takes that truth into account, and the opposing L may be able to get her client (your ex) to sign up.

[sfbayjed]

It is Ironic that I put up a post recently called Acceptance  and here  I am again a complete wreck.   

The therapist seems willing to help now but  it seems my attorney is reluctant to press things now.  My old attorney asked to be let off the case because she had a conflict with the judge, that is what she said, anyway. It was probably just emotionally draining for her and she needed to get off the case.

The new attorney is getting up to speed, but use to work for the ex's attorney, so I am a bit concerned with that.   

I am not going to be able to avoid going back to court, Ex filed an emergency motion to have the kids forced back to the old school.  The kids tell her over and over they dont want to go back, that they feel comfortable in the new school,  Ex doesnt listen. The kids are having a real hard time with the fact that she wants to force them back to a place they don't want to go. 

I am a little worried because we were ordered to continue to go to the religious school twice a week and the kids don't want to and will refuse to get out of the car if I take them.  It's  jewish school and I am not Jewish. Ex started taking them during last separation and it is a way she can control what we do and monitor us.  I have been successfully villianized by ex to the people at this temple so it is extremely uncomfortable going.  I decided that I am not going to forcefully pull the kids out of the car to indoctrinate them in a religious ideology that I dont believe in. 

I took the kids up to the snow yesterday  and went sledding it was a nice distraction, although I couldn't keep it together on the way home and had to pull over and let out a cry. I try to never do that in front of the kids, I couldn't help it this time, though.

The Ex called and talked to the kids last night when we got home, they told her how much fun they had, and said "Bye mom!" and hung up. 

The cops showed up 20 minutes later. I opened the door and said "Can I have an incident report number please" and they laughed. She called saying the kids aren't safe with me, again. It made the kids cry to see the cops asking to talk to me.   

I am meeting with the laywer again in the morning tomorrow. If i have to change lawyers I will.   This has been very emotionally exhausting.  I had to pick up my daughter early from school today , she is stressed out.  The first thing she ask me when i pick her up is ":)ad, why does mom want to make us go back to the old school"   I Just cant imagine how awful it must be to have a mom who is trying to make you go back somewhere that causes you fear.  It sucks. 

[Matt]

Well first, I'm sorry you're going through all this, but everything considered I think you're doing as well as most of us, or maybe better.  If crying = "Not going to make it" then I didn't make it about once a day for several months.  I think you're reacting very naturally and normally to very difficult stuff, and it's a good thing that you can feel what you feel, and also function well - take care of the kids, tend to your work, and take care of your health.  For now, that's doing great.  Later, maybe you'll do even better.

About the therapist and the attorney:  I would suggest a very frank talk with the attorney to get on the same sheet of music.  Remember, she works for you, and your objectives must be hers, or she isn't providing the service you are paying for.  One way to structure the discussion is to first talk about objectives - you set those, and she helps you achieve them, but if she views any of your objectives as unrealistic, she can say so, and you can take that into account.  Objectives might be things like, "Kids with me at least 60% of the time;  I don't pay any child support or alimony;  I have sole decision-making for legal purposes like school, medical, and religion."  Or something along those lines - simple, important, clear.

Ask if she has experience in similar cases, and get her to tell you about that - no names of course, but basics of the case, how it was similar to yours, how she handled it, what worked and didn't work, what she learned from it.  Prompt her to talk about cases where the other party had BPD or another serious psych disorder.

If you believe she can do the job, great - finish the discussion by repeating what you expect of her and asking if she can do it, and also by asking what she needs you to do to help.

If you decide she can't do the job, you have to find somebody else - you can't afford to waste money on an attorney who isn't going to be successful.

A key issue is your strategy of getting a professional's perceptions into the process - the therapist who has said she will talk.  Listen to your attorney's views - maybe she has some good reason for thinking differently - but if you still believe (as I do) that it will be best to get that issue into the process, say so - "I believe it is critical to get the T's perceptions into the process, and she is now ready to assist with that.  I need you to tell me the options for how we can get that done without any more delay."  You are her boss - she is your employee - and you are giving her a task to complete - "Summarize options for getting the T's perceptions into the legal process soon."  If she refuses to do the task you are asking her to do, you can repeat it, so she knows she is being required to do that task;  she will either comply with your request or tell you that it can't be done, or she is in effect resigning from the case.

Not confrontational, not angry, but determined - you will pursue your chosen objectives, and you will use a strategy that includes getting that critical information into the legal process, and you are willing to employ her to help you achieve that, but you are not wiling to employ her to pursue another strategy which you do not believe will be successful.

Many of us have been through something similar to this.  My own theory is that we who form this community have one thing in common:  we have allowed ourselves to be treated badly for a long time.  So when we hire an attorney, we often fall into another relationship which is also abusive - we allow the attorney to treat us like dirt, just like we allowed our spouse to treat us like dirt.  We have to fix the relationship with the attorney fast, or we'll spend time and money pursuing a losing strategy - we can't trust our attorneys to tell us, "I don't know how to win your case because I've never handled one like it before." - they won't say that, but we can figure it out by asking for "war stories", and judging for ourselves whether they are really experienced in these high-conflict cases or not.

[Matt]

School and the Jewish school:

Where I live, there is "residential custody" and "legal custody".

Residential is usually split;  whoever the kids are with gets to make simple decisions like what to have for dinner and what time to go to bed.  One set of rules at Mom's house and another at Dad's house.  You work out a detailed schedule so everybody knows who the kids are with when, and the other parent stays out of the way til the kids come back.

Legal custody means decisions about religion, school, relocation, and big medical issues.  That can be shared, so both parents have to agree, or the issue goes before the court (that's what I have).  Or one parent can be the tie-breaker (which means really that's who has legal custody).  Usually if one parent has sole legal custody, they're obligated to consult the other parent before making big decisions.

If all this isn't super-clear now, you need to get it clarified.  If you share legal custody, then you need to take these issues to the court to get them resolved, unless you think they can be mediated (maybe by the two attorneys and/or by a third professional acting as mediator).  Don't go around and around - get them resolved.

You don't want to ignore the court order, but you also don't want to let it terrorize you and the kids.  If they don't want to go back to the old school, and you have good reasons to keep them where they are, respond to your ex's motion with those arguments, and add any evidence you can.  I wouldn't worry too much about that issue - I can't see the court forcing them to go to a different school without a good reason - but don't be passive - clearly address every argument and claim made in your ex's motion, and make every other argument you can, supported by any evidence you can bring.

The Jewish school - what does your court order say about religion?  Does it literally say that no matter who they are with, they have to go to that Jewish school?  Usually, courts say, "Whichever parent the kids are with can take them to any church.", but sometimes the court order covers religion - "The kids will be raised in the Jewish faith." or something like that.

It may be appropriate to include whatever information you have about Ex spreading negative stuff about you at the Jewish school.  "Mr. A and Ms. B both told me that Ex told them such-and-such, which is not true, and that others at the Jewish school have heard that too.  As the result of Ms. Ex's actions, I am not welcome there."

I think you were right to ask the police about an incident number.  If you can document the times she has done stuff like that - get copies of incident reports, or get a letter from the police stating the dates she has called them and what she said - that may be a big factor because it shows she isn't right.

A big strategic issue may be filing a motion for a Custody Evaluator to be appointed.  I did that and it helped a lot, because it brought together all these same issues - false accusations, bullying, etc.  It also let to both parents taking psych evals, which got my wife's psych disorders into the record.  The CE can talk to the T and others, and pull together the whole picture, which judges usually don't do.

[livednlearned]

The therapist seems willing to help now but  it seems my attorney is reluctant to press things now.

I am not going to be able to avoid going back to court, Ex filed an emergency motion to have the kids forced back to the old school.

So if you have to go back to court, why would your L not press for the best outcome? This is the best time to press things.

Your ex comes on strong with an emergency order, probably saying the kids should stay in a school of her faith, it's where they have been, don't change.

You come back with a testimony from the kids' therapist, and maybe the school counselor, and (if allowed) a letter from your D. You make the case that your ex continues to harass you by sending the police, despite the earlier hearing that ended up in you getting majority time with the kids. Plus she is trying to change your D's therapist, which undermines any argument she might try to make about wanting to keep things consistent for her daughter.

You're exhausted (understandable) and she is relentless (unfortunate). Now you need to get an attorney on the same page and get the therapist to commit to testifying. You stand a good chance to get legal custody, or whatever the equivalent is in CA.

It's worth it sfbayjed. My stress level is almost down to normal now that I have full custody. I can parent like a normal person now, and do what's best for S12. N/BPDx continues to fight through the legal system, but it's all just expensive shadow boxing at this point. S12 is largely protected from N/BPDx's spite-fueled actions.

[ForeverDad]

How long have they been in the new school.  If they've been in school since the beginning of the school year, they're already half way through the school year, likely the judge won't be inclined to change "what is".  My lawyer told me judges hate to 'upset' the children with major changes.

Don't you have two separate issues?  School and religious school?  You have majority parenting time, likely you're paying a substantial amount of their expenses, if you moved, then a change of schools ought not be objectionable.  But if they were ordered to have religious instruction, as children of a religious parent, I'm not sure how that would turn out.  Perhaps that can be claimed to be a leftover from the days she had majority time that never got updated or adjusted?  This is something perfect for the counselors to report how the kids feel about it.  Probably they're too young for it to be their 'choice' but their actions and reactions ought to mean something.

I still think you ought to file Contempt of Court or something similar to get court action on collaboration among the professionals working with the children - pediatricians, counselors, school counselors ,etc.  If she won't sign as ordered, you're likely to win that one.  Counts love counseling for the kids.  Just be sure to bring all the paperwork into court with you since she may try to avoid signing and look for excuses to sign 'later' but you know she'd ignore those empty promises.  Get it done in court right in front of the judge staring at her.  Hey, if you're going back to court anyway, may as well get that issue and any others addressed at the same time.

[sfbayjed]

I have court this AM. Wish me luck.

I will let you know what happens

[livednlearned]

I have court this AM. Wish me luck.

I will let you know what happens

Hope things went ok, sfbayjed. Thinking of you and your kids, especially your D.

[sfbayjed]

I didnt go so good.  The judge was upset with me because I didn't consult with the kids mom enough ahead of time and ordered the kids back to the old school.  The order said I had the right to determine a new school but must consult with mother.

The kids therapist also will have to change.  

I never got the old therapist testimony in because ex wouldn't sign a release then she signed them right before the hearing so she didnt get any negative consequences for her obstruction. She was successful.

My daughter was completely devastated when she found out she has to go back to the old school, my son was very upset too.  They both like it beeter at the new school and both tell their mom that often.  

I had a chance to talk in court and explain why I didn't give my ex more notice but I choked and wasn't sure what to say.  I dont think it would have made a difference at that point anyway, I didnt have any proof of anything because Ex hadn't signed the releases.

I am completely disturbed that this judge would further traumatize the kids like this as a means to sanction me for not giving the proper notice.  It makes me sick. They have been happy at the new school, it seems that the family court system and BPDs have something in common as they treat children as objects and property rather than people with feelings.  

The system really is screwed up if after 2 custody evaluations and everything that has come to light, that the kids and I still have to live like this.  

The ex looked deranged as well. Very proud of herself in what she had accomplished. She looks awful, with this look of sanctification like she was so happy to be able to upset me.  

[sfbayjed]

I think I did screw up in not consulting with her sooner. I was afraid at the time that she would put the kids through hell if I did. The therapist understands why i didnt tell her sooner. At the time I did it I thought Id have the therapist letter explaining this. I was trying to prevent the kids from ebing tramatized.  I made a big mistake because it would have been less harmful if I did it right and tell her ahead of time for the kids to be subject to her brainwashing dirtoted alienation tactic than the harm being caused now by having to force them back to the old school.  If I would have been given proper notice I would have been able to change schools without issues

The kids mom called and my daughter was begging her not to make her go back. This is just not good. Now I will be missing alot of work because I have a bullying issue at the school that we otherwise would not have to deal with if I have given proper notice, and I am the one that will have to deal with it. At the time I was concerned about the kids tho and I believed I was doing the right thing at that time. I try to do the right thing but I make mistakes like that at times,  I just wish the kids didn't have to suffer because of it.  

[Matt]

Here's my perception:

You are being jerked around (that's a legal term) by a crazy person.  Most of us have been through this - I can tell you stories! - and it's normal to blame yourself, and maybe there are some things you can do better in the future.  But mostly it won't matter because someone who is unpredictable, irrational, aggressive, or passive-aggressive (and I think your ex is all of these) will always have you tied in knots, trying to figure out how to cope with her behavior.

Keep trying!  Because you can probably figure out some better ways to deal with her.  Keep talking with us here - others may have suggestions.

But... . as a strategy, it won't work to try to always do the right thing - she will continue to put you into no-win situations.  You just can't predict crazy.

So... . your strategy needs to be based on her continuing to behave erratically and irrationally, and on you doing your best but sometimes failing to figure out a good way to deal with it.

Your strategy needs to be, to elevate and illuminate - to shine a bright light on what is happening, and to help everyone see it from a bird's-eye view - the big picture.

Documentation is a big part of it.  Relationships with professionals, including teachers, is also a big part of it.  (As your kids go back to the old school, and if they are bullied, your ability to work together with the staff there to handle it the best way possible, may be a big advantage in your case, over the long haul.)

But a missing element in this strategy, in my opinion, is an experienced and effective lawyer.  What happened this week - it sounds like you had no help from an attorney at all - you were trying to handle your own case, and you don't have the experience to do that.  A good attorney would probably have been able to get a better result.

So... . do you want to talk about what choices you might have, to find and engage someone who can help?

[sfbayjed]

We did get a special master appointed but their scope is limited I believe. The new therapist will also be able to report to the court so we are moving in the right direction it appears yet I am a bit frustrated in that I am not finding it easy to understand what my attorney is trying to do and she has somewhat ignored things I have asked for.  Its been very emotional and I have not been the easiest client most likely.  I do find it hard to communicate with my attorney and once the special master I am considering changing or going it alone.  I need to defend against another motion for more custody in 3 months and by then the special master will have hopefully gotten a good idea of what is going on.  I do not know how much the special master will be able to do though. I have not been able to get a clear understanding from my attorney of what just  happened at the hearing.  

The kids actually did well today at their first day back at the old school. I was pleased. I had called yesterday and told the office that I was not going to tolerate my daughter being afraid at school and I would get the district office involved if I had too. Today it seems like they were taking it seriously and my daughter reports having a good day, so i am pleased.  

So, in a way this crazy dramatic thing ended up being good for the kids, they got to see that there are other schools than their school and their original school seems to be paying more attention to the problem, and they don't seem so afraid today which is good.  . We will have to see how it's going in a few days. I still believe I have the right to change schools, I just need to "consult" with her first. I am not even sure what they mean by consult anyway. But they were forced back because I didn't consult with her and the order didn't change, so I figure that I could now consult with her and go ahead and change them back to the new school if I want to.  Regardless, they should be able to go to school with the kids in the neighborhood if they want to.

I would like to explore the choices I might have, to find and engage someone who can help yes. I am receiving a lower cost attorney through a county program, which is about 1/3 the cost but still ads up quickly because I spent so much time communicating with my lawyer trying to figure things out.

[ForeverDad]

So you didn't 'consult' with her because you wanted to avoid conflict and subsequent blowback on the children.  And it didn't work. :'(  Understandable, I've done it myself, so have most of us here.  But that was walking on eggshells and in the end it really didn't avoid problems.  Quite a tough learning experience.

[Matt]

Just brainstorming... .

What if you spent the rest of this school year working with the people at the old school, to make sure the bullying doesn't happen again, and to help your kids do their best there... .

... . maybe send your ex a note once every week or two, telling her how the kids are doing and asking for her ideas... .

... . then late in the school year, or after it's over, send her a note summarizing how things have gone, and asking for her view on the old school vs. the new one, but avoiding as much as possible a black-and-white contrast between them - maybe framing it some other way, like "What are all the options we have?" (even if there are only two options that are feasible).

Exchange e-mails with her in a very polite, mild way - make sure to show that you are paying attention to her views - ask her about specific things like ":)o you think Daughter is getting the best math help for her?" or whatever.

So you build a paper trail showing that you are asking for her input, and hearing it, and taking it seriously.

Then let her know, by e-mail, that you appreciate her input, and based on that and other factors, you have decided X, and you hope she will support that, for the kids' sakes.

No mention of court, no argument, just consulting with her so much that she can't reasonably claim you didn't - and all of it by e-mail so there is a paper trail.

If you decide to make the change, do it late in the summer - find out when you need to decide and do the paperwork just in time - so there won't be time for her to interfere before school starts.

If she then makes an issue of it in court, your lawyer should be 100% prepared to show that you consulted with her and made the right choice.  Your lawyer should go into every court appearance knowing exactly what issues will be discussed, and 100% prepared to explain and support everything you have done.  She should be able to explain the process to you - the big picture and what will happen at each hearing - so you are always as calm as possible - no surprises.

If she can't do that, she either doesn't have the experience you need, or she is choosing to keep you in the dark.

One more thought - still just brainstorming, since every case is unique, and I'm not a lawyer - my only experience is my own case, plus what others here have shared - but I wonder if you could benefit by thinking of yourself as an "interviewer", like Oprah or whoever on TV - interviewing your lawyer from time to time - asking very clear questions you have prepared, and then listening carefully to her answers, and asking follow-up questions, til you truly understand each issue.  If you don't understand what she says, or if her answer raises new questions in your mind, don't feel bad about that - look at it as an opportunity to learn, both about the subject matter (the law, court procedures, etc.) and about her - your attorney - how she thinks, how she decides what steps to take, etc.

This approach might put you at ease a little, and help you take the initiative in the conversation - you are interviewing her, and you get to ask whatever questions you want to, til you feel good about what's going on, and confident that she is taking the right approach.

Quite a few attorneys might push back, and treat you like you're overstepping what is appropriate, but remember that you are her boss - she works for you - and you are paying her to advise you and assist you to achieve your reasonable objectives.  You can't do a good job with the case if you don't understand the law and the process - that's her area of expertise so part of her job is to share with you what she knows.

If at some point she pushes back - that happened to me and many others here - you need to be prepared to hear her out, and show her due respect, but then repeat what you need from her, and remind her that this is what you need from her, so you can make the best decisions about the case.  "I'm paying you to help me make the right decisions on this case, so I need you to answer my questions and tell me what options I have."

[livednlearned]

So you didn't 'consult' with her because you wanted to avoid conflict and subsequent blowback on the children.  And it didn't work. :'(  Understandable, I've done it myself, so have most of us here.  But that was walking on eggshells and in the end it really didn't avoid problems.  Quite a tough learning experience.

The hard part is that we know consulting our spouses won't make a difference, but the court doesn't understand that.

My ex sabotaged a change in schools and he was consulted. Our admissions interview (which required that both parents were there) was so hostile (N/BPDx to me) that I should have ended it. I was so mortified and other than just walking out, I'm not sure there was any way to get N/BPDx to stop being aggressive.

But the upside to what you experienced in court is knowing that she cannot just yank the kids out of a school and put them where she wants. Same with therapy. It's hard to see it that way, I know, but in this case the judge was protecting the protection, if that makes sense. The unfortunate truth is that you need sole legal or full custody so you can make decisions that are in the best interests of the kids, and that takes time and documentation.

[sfbayjed]

I see now that I made a mistake by not notifying her. The therapist calling me and telling me she was concerned about the kids had me worried. I see now that I cannot make unilateral decisions even if I am afraid for the kids emotional safety because i know the EX will attempt to brainwash them and influenece what they say to people. I would have had proof of this if the therapist would have been able to write a statement to the court. At they time i assumed she was going to so I thought it would be obvious by the time we got to court that I was acting in the kids best interest.  

I think I might have done better without a lawyer at all this time. The lawyer and I are not on the same page it seems. If I was doing it myself i would have been more prepared. I spent a great deal of time communicating with the lawyer and not getting anywhere, and everything was disorganized.

The Judge scalded me that the kids had too many tardies.  If I was aware that I was being accused of that I would have been prepared but I was not. I drop the kids off at the same time. My son only has one tardy all year and my daughter has 17.  I got them to school on time everyday all year except once. I found out today that what was happening is that my daughter was not going to line up fpr the Pledge in the morning because she was scared and she would wonder off and go to class when it was over and would be marked late because of this.  When the judge lecyured me about it I had no idea what to say. It felt like the twilight zone.  SO now the judge thinks I have a problem getting the kids to school on time.   Of course the ex provided my daughters attendance records and not my sons who was only late once all year.

I almost want to write a letter to the judge explaining.  

[Matt]

You're learning a lot fast.  Unfortunately you are learning at your own expense - you're paying a lawyer, who isn't doing the job, and you're also paying in terms of bad results.

You hire a lawyer to get results.  You're not getting results.  So you shouldn't continue to employ that lawyer.

My gut tells me that you shouldn't do this by yourself.  You have too much at stake - you're very emotionally involved - and the judge probably doesn't view you very favorably.  You need help.

I understand that lawyers are expensive and now is not the time to be adding lots of expense.  But my guess is that if you find the right attorney - someone who has experience with cases like this - and if you tell her your financial limits, you may be able to work out something affordable.

[ForeverDad]

If this was a judge's order and not a settlement agreed to, you probably have a set period of time you can file an objection or seek reconsideration.  Even if you think it won't change the judge's mind, it can't hurt to get it on the record.  For example you can try to fix this misunderstanding, among others.  Judges may or may not get peeved when one parent presents only the information that favors one side as she did by not submitting son's attendance records.  It would have been strange for one child to always be on time when the other isn't.  But judge can hardly blame you for wanting the complete information "on the record".  Same goes for the therapist's communication to the court.  Now that ex has signed at the last minute but without you having time to do anything with it, they might be able to be submitted?

So now the judge thinks I have a problem getting the kids to school on time.  Of course the ex provided my daughter's attendance records and not my sons who was only late once all year.

If you're going to act, you'll have only maybe a couple weeks to file.  But at least it would be in writing and you'd wouldn't have to be concerned about your nerves.

[sfbayjed]

That's  what i keep asking the lawyer, how do we get the therapist testimony submitted.  What the hell?  I just dont get a answer back.  Now there is a problem writting the up the stipulation because exs lawyer always gets selected and he always trys to ad things.  I have instructed the lawyer to do things and she is not responsive. She refers to the other lawyer by first name.  she does mean well but it doesnt seem to be working.  I have been offered assistance from family ( I think they have had enough of my daughter being crying) so,  Once the special master appointment is done I am going to fire the firm and seek the best lawyer I can find.

Any advice on finding the best lawyer for high conflict cases.  

Learning at my own expense seems to be my pattern in this life. It is learning at the kids expense that is not tolerable to me.

[ForeverDad]

So the judges decision was just verbal and the lawyers are the ones to write up the 'order' or stipulation?  So what happens if the lawyers can get both parents to sign?  Do you go back to court again?

Also, find out from the court if there's any ability to file an objection or request reconsideration and what those time frames are.  I'm thinking nothing the lawyers are doing will get done quickly.  I had a decision in recent months that referenced certain Local Rules but I was never able to track them down.  The court, while referring me to my lawyer for legal advice, did tell me about a 2 week period for objections or requests for clarification.

[Matt]

Instruct your lawyer - in writing - that she should write up the next order.  If the judge appoints the other lawyer to do it, she should speak up:  "Your Honor, the last time you appointed Mr. Ex'sLawyer to write up your decision, he added in things you did not say.  So I would ask to be appointed to write it up, and I will only write what you said."  Practice it with her - ask her to say it for you so you will know she is prepared to speak up.  Then in court, if she doesn't speak up, you can speak up:  "Your Honor, the last time you appointed Mr. Ex'sLawyer... . ".  It's hard to do something like that if you're not prepared, but since you know this is a problem, you can prepare how to handle it, and let your lawyer know that if she doesn't speak up, you will.

As for how to find a better lawyer, lots of us here have faced this - how to find somebody who can handle a case like this.

I got on the phone, and called a number of attorneys, and asked about their experience with high-conflict cases, and specifically with BPD.  Most of them didn't even know what BPD was, and admitted they had little experience with high-conflict cases.  I asked them to recommend someone.  Finally I found someone who seemed to have experience with high-conflict cases - she gave me "war stories" about what she had learned - and when I mentioned BPD, she said, "You mean Borderline Personality Disorder?", which told me she at least knew what it was.

I met with her and asked her more questions, and became convinced she had a clue.  She didn't talk about "collaborative" divorce, she talked about being prepared for the other party to lie, and how that could be dealt with effectively - through depositions mostly - and about putting the other party into stressful situations so her behavior could be seen by the judge - all the stuff I had learned about in "Splitting" by William Eddy.

[livednlearned]

So the judges decision was just verbal and the lawyers are the ones to write up the 'order' or stipulation?  So what happens if the lawyers can get both parents to sign?  Do you go back to court again?

Also, find out from the court if there's any ability to file an objection or request reconsideration and what those time frames are.  I'm thinking nothing the lawyers are doing will get done quickly.  I had a decision in recent months that referenced certain Local Rules but I was never able to track them down.  The court, while referring me to my lawyer for legal advice, did tell me about a 2 week period for objections or requests for clarification.

My L writes all of the orders. Then N/BPDx (because he is pro se) has the opportunity to reject them. Then they go to a hearing to enter the order.

Like Matt said, your L needs to write the orders. If she is not writing them, she can go over the proposed order written by the opposing attorney and ask for clarifications. The judge might not accept them, but it's on the record that there were clarifications. Then there is usually a hearing where the order is entered. Your L should be telling you about those hearings and asking he you want to be there.

It sounds like your L is just going through the motions.

For this last go-around, ask if there is an opportunity to get the part about your son's attendance into the record.

Also, why was that sprung on you? It sounds like it came out of left field. Did your ex file a motion and that got swept into the motion?

[Matt]

The bottom line is, your team is not winning, so you need to make a change.  If you could magically become an expert in all these issues, that would be great - then you could represent yourself, save legal costs, and get a good outcome.  (If the judge isn't too biased against people who represent themselves.)

But you can't magically become an expert in these matters.  We share our experiences here, and I hope that helps you - it helped me in my case! - but you are who you are and you're not an attorney, and you need the strongest team you can put on the field, which means you need to find the best attorney you can, fast.  This one probably can't be fixed in time.

[sfbayjed]

"Also, why was that sprung on you? It sounds like it came out of left field. Did your ex file a motion and that got swept into the motion?"

In Dec. I first hired this lawyer and they gave my file to a sub, she got sick with the flu went to the hospital , When Ex filed ex parte motion for the school,  apparently there was another motion by ex for  modify custody, which the lawyers office already recieved . I was never informed that the lawyer was served with that and had no idea I had a court date already.  The ex parte request was deigned and the motion scheduled to the the same court date.   I have never seen a copy of their motion to change custody. I have asked for it several times and never received it.  Because they got it and did not give it to me, they said I changed schools after I got that motion and learned that Ex was moving back to the area of the 1st school in an attempt to alienate the kids, which wasnt the case. I instructed the lawyer to raise that as my part of my defense that I did not know she was moving, but lawyer said it was irrelevant and did not bring it up. I instructed lawyer to raise in my defense the fact that the reason I did not inform mother of the change sooner was because I was concerned with the well being of the kids and I had consulted with the therapist who agreed that it might be risky for the kids if I told her before they got back from the weekend. The therapist was aware that Ex was agitated and volitile at the time. The lawyer did not bring it up


IN the big picture this will be a temp setback for me, and a pivital time for the kids when they have learned that their moms primary concern is not acting in their best interest. They are dealing with the "why wont my mom listen to me", "doesn't she care about what I want", "doesn't she care about my feelings"

That damage is done, it wont be forgot. They asked and begged, but mom had to win instead of had to do whats best for them.  Well she won, alright. I am sure she has no clue of what she has done and sleeps just fine satisfied that she stuck it to me, while her children and I deal with the fall out. 

 

If I had no lawyer at all I would have received the motion and would have had the records and a statement ready.  This is not smelling all that good. The lawyer went to law school with Ex's lawyer and they are friends it seems.

I am going to get new lawyer and try my best to get these things straightened out.  

It is almost as if this lawyer has tanked my case on purpose. If not, she could not have done a better job of it, if she had done it on purpose.

[Matt]

I was never informed that the lawyer was served with that and had no idea I had a court date already.  The ex parte request was deigned and the motion scheduled to the the same court date.   I have never seen a copy of their motion to change custody. I have asked for it several times and never received it.

This alone is enough to know that this lawyer is either incompetent or corrupt.

You should be kept informed of everything involved with your case - everything filed by either side and every information that your lawyer receives from any source which is related to your case.

You should always be informed when a court date is set, and exactly what will happen at that hearing, and exactly what preparation is needed so you will get the best possible outcome from each court date.

You should always be consulted before anything is filed, and nothing should be filed without your approval.  (And of course you should always read every word and ask every possible question to make sure it is what you want filed.)

You probably have a case against your attorney.  Might be worth contacting the state bar association to find out what your options are.  At the very least, if you could get back what you paid her, you could use that money to hire someone honest and competent.  (But it will take a long time to get that money back from the crooked and/or incompetent one.)

I think you are right, this will probably be a temporary setback, if you find a good and honest attorney, and work closely with her to handle things well from now on.

[sfbayjed]

I got the file from the old Lawyer.   I sent her tons of evidence and most of it was not in the file.  Very unprofessional.  The last few weeks have been horribly trying emotionally.  But the silver lining is that it has shaken awoken me to the fact that I need better representation. 

My daughter is also still doing good in school, which I am very grateful for.  The ex was down talking to the teacher and I am sure she will attempt to claim it was her effort talking to the teacher that led to my daughters improvement.  The fact is, however, that before I did anything, no one else was taking the problem seriously. The Ex's solution was to force my daughter to class unless she was throwing up. Things changed because I did something, it may have not been the best decision in hindsight in the opinion of some, I ended up looking bad to the court, it seems( I hope I can explain at some point), but things are better now for my daughter and is because I did something. I might be the only one that can see that, so I am going to go ahead and give myself a pat on the back for that.

I am hoping the new lawyer can get my case back on track.   

[Matt]

From:  Jed

To:  Old Lawyer

Re:  Incomplete file.

Ms. OldLawyer,

I received my file back from you, but a number of critical items were missing.  They are listed below.  I am working from memory so it is likely there are other missing items not listed here.

Please provide every item related to my case to me by 5:00 p.m. today.

Thank you.

Jed

Missing items:

1.  Item

2.  Item

etc.

If this doesn't work - if she does not provide the missing items - you might need to call your state's bar association and ask for help.  They are in the business of keeping lawyers from getting a bad reputation.  [Insert sleazy-lawyer joke here.]  They will probably be willing to call her and try to mediate in some way, and she is likely to realize she better act fast to keep you from filing a complaint.