Please explain to me...

[Depression = 72% of members]

What does it mean to not have a self? or identity? How can you function in society if you don't have one?

[Kallor74]

What does it mean to not have a self? or identity? How can you function in society if you don't have one?

[fromheeltoheal]

Short answer: by mirroring everyone else's.

Masterson's take is interesting: before we are born and shortly after, we do not see ourselves as separate from our mother; we consider us and them one person with no concept of being our own individual.  At some point we're lying in our crib or whatever and our mother leaves, we don't know if she's coming back, we experience abandonment trauma and the subsequent depression and weather them, all of which being critical steps in becoming autonomous individuals, have and be our own 'selves'.  A borderline never goes through that, never separates from their mother, the trauma is just too great, so they get 'stuck' in a lifelong pattern of needing to attach to someone and fearing abandonment, a replaying of that original abandonment.  All of that happens when they are very young and preverbal, can't yet think rationally, so it gets hardwired into their personality and is subconscious; a borderline doesn't know why they do what they do, other than it feels better.  So when a borderline attaches to you, the two of you make up one 'person' with no boundary between in their heads, and out of that comes all the traits and behaviors.

[Perfidy]

What does it mean to not have a self? or identity? How can you function in society if you don't have one?

The one I knew couldn't. No job. No friends. Only identity she had was mine.

[sun seeker]

 Perfidy

Mine too exactly!

[Ironmanrises]

By wearing masks that represent fragmented selves to the outside world. The pwBPD has learned to survive like that all their life. My exUBPDgf told me multiple times, "I do not know who I am." During round 2, when I heard this, as I already knew about her BPD, brought me to tears.

[Perfidy]

Perfidy

Mine too exactly!

A relationship is a matter of survival for her. Explains the overlap.

[love4meNOTu]

I read something, can't remember where, sorry, but it was really telling.

If you pwBPD doesn't have any friends from their "past", like their high school years, their college years, their early working life... . It's because they stopped mirroring at each stage. They can only mirror the current target, not keep mirroring the targets from the past.

So their sense of self is gone... the only way they have one is by borrowing yours. They are different people with every one they interact with.

[Kallor74]

I read something, can't remember where, sorry, but it was really telling.

If you pwBPD doesn't have any friends from their "past", like their high school years, their college years, their early working life... . It's because they stopped mirroring at each stage. They can only mirror the current target, not keep mirroring the targets from the past.

So their sense of self is gone... the only way they have one is by borrowing yours. They are different people with every one they interact with.

By wearing masks that represent fragmented selves to the outside world. The pwBPD has learned to survive like that all their life. My exUBPDgf told me multiple times, "I do not know who I am." During round 2, when I heard this, as I already knew about her BPD, brought me to tears.

This is so sad. Is there any hope for them to "find themselves"?

[Ironmanrises]

The biggest hurdle I would think for a pwBPD is to first come to the conclusion that therapy is needed. Now add to that hurdle, that the disorder itself exists to deny itself. When my exUBPDgf discarded me in round 2, she admitted, then denied, then admitted and denied to having the disorder all in one sentence. How can one overcome such twisted logic? I was left minus words at that point. Just tears. And now anger.

[seeking balance]

What does it mean to not have a self? or identity?

Fantastic Question!

I asked this to the MC over and over because I could not get my head around it - my ex was a PhD, how the heck was a professional telling me that she had no self.  MC said, "you know that gut feeling that you know who you are, you know your values, your uBPDw (at the time) does not have that gut feeling"

What I learned, pwBPD honestly don't know what they like or prefer. They tend to say what they know the right thing to say.  Codependency to the 100th degree.

Tami Green - a recovered pwBPD has several videos on youtube - she is very well spoken and smart.  She gives an example a simple as this... . she honestly didn't even know what her favorite color was.  In therapy, it was a big deal when she was able to say and know she was a person who liked the color green.

It seems so simple, but when you see how intelligent and articulate she is, to watch her with this story it becomes much more real.

How can you function in society if you don't have one?

Mirroring - pwBPD are master chameleons and have a natural ability to fit in because it is a survival skill.

[santa]

I don't know "psychiatry" all that well, but as far as the lack of self concept goes, I sort of have an idea of what they are that helps make sense of it for me. They are basically emotional black holes. You can put whatever amount you want of emotion or thought or concern or whatever into them and it basically dissipates. They're just not there.

They can pretend like it's registering and give positive feedback to what you're saying, but you're never going to get through to them. They just don't get it.

[Perfidy]

Kind of in a way. The truth is that YOU  just don't get it. They think they are smarter because they are. They know they win every time because we let them. Look at you not them. It's like that.

[santa]

Kind of in a way. The truth is that YOU  just don't get it. They think they are smarter because they are. They know they win every time because we let them. Look at you not them. It's like that.

You're right. I think within the context of my relationship, that is exactly right.

Now, I get it. That's why I've been able to process this thing and find peace with it. When you still engage with them, what you said is accurate.

I saw a quote yesterday I thought was awesome. Someone posted it. It may have been you. It was, "I'm very smart. I've never won an argument with an idiot though." Makes a lot of sense.

[Perfidy]

Ultimately truth will prevail. That's why truth is important. Replace illusion with reality.

[fromheeltoheal]

I don't think a borderline is necessarily smarter, it's a matter of focus. If you are convinced someone is going to abandon you, don't trust them, and believe when they protest to the contrary they're lying, you will be hypersensitive to all the interpersonal relations, over analyze everything down to interpretation and misinterpretation of facial expressions, everything.  If you spend that much time, energy and focus on something you will get very good at it.  I was way out of my league when it came to the psychic intensity, wondered why can't you just lighten the fck up babe, but no, too much pain, too much disconnection, too little trust, no capacity for sustained contentment, addiction to chaos and drama.  I'm more of a sit down and talk about it kinda guy, but there was never any resolution to anything; I don't do well with lack of trust and chaos, but she certainly wasn't smarter.

[Perfidy]

Um... . H2h? Is she here getting over you?

[Perfidy]

Sorry h2h. I just seem to be well grounded in this bhit of  thing called reality these days.

[fromheeltoheal]

No, she's been through three men and lost two jobs since we broke up. The chaos continues, she doesn't get over anything, it's all repressed. We're on the right path, the smart path.

[arn131arn]

H2H,

How long have ya'll been broken up?

[fromheeltoheal]

About a year and a half.

[thisyoungdad]

I read something, can't remember where, sorry, but it was really telling.

If you pwBPD doesn't have any friends from their "past", like their high school years, their college years, their early working life... . It's because they stopped mirroring at each stage. They can only mirror the current target, not keep mirroring the targets from the past.

So their sense of self is gone... the only way they have one is by borrowing yours. They are different people with every one they interact with.

This is so interesting to me because my ex only has 2 or 3 friends from any other time in her life other than now, and those friends she has very little contact with except a few times a year. One of them once told me they didn't really feel that they were ever very close to my ex. My ex considers them very close friends but it is not reciprocated. That is what I have noticed a lot. To me that is sad. I don't have a ton of friends from my past but I can think of a few, a couple from high school (who really wants to stay friends with that many people from high school) and a few from right after etc.

The few my ex has are almost entirely one sided relationships that she keeps almost no contact with except through facebook on occasion.

[arn131arn]

About a year and a half.

Is she able to care for herself.  Mine moved out beginning of september.  She is a nurse and lives with her sister... . hmm

[fromheeltoheal]

About a year and a half.

Is she able to care for herself.  Mine moved out beginning of september.  She is a nurse and lives with her sister... . hmm

Yes, she's very resilient and she gets money from ex husbands, always lands on her feet, something I always admired about her.

[Changingman]

How about... .

Someone gives you a gift and you have no idea if you like it.

You look at an expression on a face and have no internal understanding knowledge of what it means

You look in a mirror and see a stranger or nothing reflected back

You are the ultimate 'sheep' but are always on the outside

Sex is the only way you know if someone likes you a bit

You only wear ' other peoples ' clothes, even your own

There is no 'original source', 'spring', 'well' inside you

The words 'baby', 'breadboard' and 'dog' have the same emotional 'kick' to them

You talk like bob Marley for a year and then the queen mother the next, you don't notice

Your hair colour is the biggest statement you can ever make

Being on your own means you disappear or shapeshift into the toaster

You cannot love or have values because they must be tested... . against what

You cannot check internally what happens externally

[drv3006]

I don't know "psychiatry" all that well, but as far as the lack of self concept goes, I sort of have an idea of what they are that helps make sense of it for me. They are basically emotional black holes. You can put whatever amount you want of emotion or thought or concern or whatever into them and it basically dissipates. They're just not there.

They can pretend like it's registering and give positive feedback to what you're saying, but you're never going to get through to them. They just don't get it.

Exactly!  Amen!  I totally related to this.

[DreamGirl]

Here's my take on it.

The DSM IV criteria included this in a BPD diagnosis:

3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.


To have some kind of empathy in this - for the sole reason of understanding this kind of behavior in BPD traited individuals - we all struggle with this really.  I mean how many of us have been in a place in our life where we just felt kinda lost and didn't have a 100% idea of who we really are? If I'm really honest with myself, I know that it's still a process for me, especially as my children are getting older, when my identity has been so wrapped in being a mother.

I think if adhering the "normal" badge on it, we start developing our identity based on our own values and thoughts when we're young (teen years). A pwBPD is stunted in this development (probably in childhood) and struggles with it in a far more profound way. It's also where you see the term mirroring:

1) The theory of mirroring was developed by Heinz Kohut, MD.  Kohut said that children need to have their conversations and accomplishments acknowledged, accepted and praised by others.  Kohut felt that it is important for a child's legitimate feelings of be mirrored by its parents. The parent's mirroring gets internalized in time by the child, so as the child gets older they can provide their own mirroring, their own sense of self-appreciation.  Children who do not get enough mirroring are considered by many psychologists to be at risk of developing a narcissistic personality later in life.

The basis of healthy self-esteem is that one's natural self, with all its emotions, with its successes and failures, is acceptable and loveable. If the child does not feel their parents love them for themselves, apart from accomplishments, they will develop what object relations theorists call the "false self," - the self that is fabricated in order to get the approval of his parents, based on the ability to achieve good grades, a good job, a good mate, etc.

After reading Stop Walking on Eggshells, it was such a big piece to the puzzle when it came to the pwBPD in my life. In my case, she really will adopt some of the persona of whoever she is romantically involved with - she's been a vegetarian and then in a different relationship went on a hunting trip, she's adopted the values of a democrat and in the next relationship those of a republican, she also will take on his favorite football team (she's been a Packers fan, a Broncos fan, a Patriots fan, a Cowboys fan).  

For her, I think it's just so much about her just wanting to please her partner. She really struggles in self worth and just doesn't believe she's good enough in so many ways, so she thinks slapping a Harley Davidson sticker on her car because her new boyfriend is a biker will help her in feeling a little less lost.  

I've read before that describes our "sense of self" as an internal experience and that it creates what others see us as - our identity.

So it just seems to all tie in together.

She wants so much to feel loved and valued (low self worth) and she suffers from a mood regulation disorder (can't self soothe) - so she seeks outwardly. It's simply a BPD coping skill to get the pay off she wants. It's not healthy and it simply can't sustain itself. It places too much expectation on both people in the relationship.