Do I need to decide to stay, or just remain permanently undecided?

[Moselle]

I spend most of my time on the staying board these days, learning how to cope with this disease, but I've not decided to stay.

She is trying coerce me into staying, and giving me ultimatums like, "If you refuse to go to couple counselling we are over". I called her bluff by saying "One of my boundaries is no threats, so I guess you have your answer on couples therapy" (The context is that we have had 4 years of couples therapy and it made no difference whatsoever)

She's also making all the commitments in the world.

I told her today that I will not go to couple counselling until I've decided to give the marriage a go. I have offered friendship and that will have to be enough.

I also said that if I did decide to stay, it would be because I wanted to, and not to please or appease her.

How long is effective? and how long is too long to leave this decision?

I am also considering never telling her I'm staying, and live each day saying "I'm here now, lets live for today"

Any thoughts?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Gimme Peace]

I bounce between Undecided and Leaving, not very much on Staying. We are together after a recycle three years ago that has not gone well. Started couples therapy a couple of months ago,

things have gotten much worse since then, opening up wounds that he doesn't want to talk about.

Some days I believe it could work... .via magical thinking. Then reality sets in when he dysregulates (at least 3x a week now) and I realize that he's never going to change and if I stay it's always going to be like this. Living in the Land of Oz doing the Yo-Yo dance.

I wish that my brain would accept the reality of his condition, but instead I have an image of "his best" in my mind, thinking that he could be that way again. In my heart I know that his "best" was just a façade, something he created to lure me in. It doesn't really exist in a concrete way.

[upsidedown_world]

Why not respond with identifying solid goals and timelines for couples counseling?  That way in 4 months, you can assess where you are and see if it's pointless or not.

[Moselle]

Why not respond with identifying solid goals and timelines for couples counseling?  That way in 4 months, you can assess where you are and see if it's pointless or not.

Thanks upsidedown_world. I have got counselling reluctance . I'm tired of the conflict, endless arguments around it - I did it for 3 years.

It's time for us to own the problem ourselves. My W seems to apply therapy to every problem. It's almost like she avoids responsibility that way. Oh we need another great therapist to solve our problems. There's so much we can do without a therapist. I'm preparing a parenting plan for the children, which will hopefully render some co-operation. I've offered my friendship to my W, no more. If she's serious, we'll see some real lasting changes. Also I've invested so much in this now.  I'm much more interested in spending my energy on my own growth and the children than I am on this relationship. She can have the leftovers from that if there is any. That's just the space I'm in. I don't want uneasy moments. I don't want conflict, I don't want this nonsense. It drains my energy.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Moselle, I find it interesting that you roam the Staying and Undecided Boards, but also hang out over here on the Leaving Board.  For many of us, it's a linear progression from Staying to Undecided to Leaving, but there's no hard and fast rule.  Needless to say, it sounds like you are vacillating about what to do, which is something with which we have all probably wrestled.  My only suggestion for you is to listen to your gut feelings, which often get drowned out in the hurly-burly of a BPD r/s.  What is the path towards greater happiness for you?  Hang in there, LuckyJim

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, Moselle, I accidently dropped in on the Undecided Board, whereas I usually hang out over at Leaving, so I apologize for posting on your thread and hope I didn't say anything inappropriate.  LJ

[Moselle]

Hello again, Moselle, I accidently dropped in on the Undecided Board, whereas I usually hang out over at Leaving, so I apologize for posting on your thread and hope I didn't say anything inappropriate.  LJ

LJ please feel free to state your opinion without feeling that it's innapropriate and without censure. I appreciate all opinions so speak your mind. I vascillate between leaving and staying mainly because i have three children with her, and that complicates it for me. I would have walked if we had no kids.

My dBPD/NPDw will never love me in a conventional way. I accept that. I just don't know if I can live with that. Knowing my spouse doesn't love me Blech!

[Lucky Jim]

OK, Moselle, here's my two cents.  I've been in your shoes, my friend, having two children with my BPDxW.  I stayed for many years in part because I felt that I owed it to my kids to provide a stabilizing influence to balance out the chaos of BPD.  I tried as hard as I could for as long as I could, but my marriage grew progressively worse despite all my efforts.  I nearly destroyed myself, emotionally, physically and financially, in the process.  BPD proved too complex for me; it felt like I was running in quicksand.  At some point, you're not doing anyone a favor by staying, but I can't tell you when that is except to say that you will know it when you get there, if you reach that point.  To paraphrase Dante, it felt like I was lost in a dark wood with no clear path out.  Not saying I'm out of the woods yet, but I'm back on my path . . .

Hang in there and listen to your gut,

LuckyJim

[Moselle]

OK, Moselle, here's my two cents.  I've been in your shoes, my friend, having two children with my BPDxW.  I stayed for many years in part because I felt that I owed it to my kids to provide a stabilizing influence to balance out the chaos of BPD.  I tried as hard as I could for as long as I could, but my marriage grew progressively worse despite all my efforts.  I nearly destroyed myself, emotionally, physically and financially, in the process.  BPD proved too complex for me; it felt like I was running in quicksand.  At some point, you're not doing anyone a favor by staying, but I can't tell you when that is except to say that you will know it when you get there, if you reach that point.  To paraphrase Dante, it felt like I was lost in a dark wood with no clear path out.  Not saying I'm out of the woods yet, but I'm back on my path . . .

Hang in there and listen to your gut,

LuckyJim

Thanks LJ! I really appreciate you sharing that. It balances this for me. The best thing for me right now is that she thinks I am prepared to walk. I actually am - really, and she is behaving well, like never before. Mine has a strong dose of NPD as well as the BPD, which I actually find easier to manage than the abandonment of BPD. 

We are doing some self DBT with the book "conflict couples" which is actually helping me alot, as well as her.

I'm done managing her and trying to help her. I'm Happy to validate her, but I will never again be the one pushing for change. That's her business and divorce or not i realise she will always be mentally ill.

The deciding factor is actually within me, not her. Can I thrive in this relationship? If after giving it my absolute best and the answer to that question is "no" then I will end it. The children deserve to have a dad who thrives, and that may only be in the loving arms of another woman. I hope not but if  it is, then so be it. My children will have a family that exhibits healthy behaviour. That I have decided for myself and them. The personnel question in that scenrio is dependent on W and the choices she makes.

I have alot of tactical stuff I'm doing to support this but I cannot share it in a public forum, because that's like wikileaks :-)

[Lucky Jim]

The deciding factor is actually within me, not her. Can I thrive in this relationship?

Think you hit the nail on the head with that question!  Only you can find the answer.

Lucky Jim

[Moselle]

Think you hit the nail on the head with that question!  Only you can find the answer.

Lucky Jim

The momentum is moving in a positive direction at the moment in the relationship, but I don't know if things have fundamentally changed or if she is mirroring again. There are certainly devastating moments still, I've had one in 7 weeks of progress.

I know I have fundamentally changed and for this I am actually grateful in a twisted way. Without this relationship I would have otherwise gone through life being happily co-dependent, and never have realised.

There was baggage from my mum. I now realise she is BPD/NPD just like my W, so bizarrely I'm more prepared to have a healthy relationship now, than I was without my spouse

I wonder what else is out there that I'm completely oblivious to  

[Lucky Jim]

No, I don't find it twisted to be grateful for the tough lessons learned in a BPD r/s.

It is definitely a crucible from which one emerges changed, as you note.

From what you describe, things seem on a better tack with your W.

I think you will figure out what is right for you in terms of the next step.

Lucky Jim

[thereishope]

I bounce between Undecided and Leaving, not very much on Staying. We are together after a recycle three years ago that has not gone well. Started couples therapy a couple of months ago,

things have gotten much worse since then, opening up wounds that he doesn't want to talk about.

Some days I believe it could work... .via magical thinking. Then reality sets in when he dysregulates (at least 3x a week now) and I realize that he's never going to change and if I stay it's always going to be like this. Living in the Land of Oz doing the Yo-Yo dance.

I wish that my brain would accept the reality of his condition, but instead I have an image of "his best" in my mind, thinking that he could be that way again. In my heart I know that his "best" was just a façade, something he created to lure me in. It doesn't really exist in a concrete way.

I am in exactly the same situation right now... .You describe my feelings perfectly... .I too have an image of "his best" in my mind... .but he often devalues me with looks, words, control... .but I am in FOG enough to not even be able to feel corresponding emotions at all anymore... .It's all just a big foggy mess... .But I do feel, as you do, that i shuffle between leaving or undecided... .just with a continual feeling of something is "not right", and a continual lack of peace... .

[Moselle]

No, I don't find it twisted to be grateful for the tough lessons learned in a BPD r/s.

It is definitely a crucible from which one emerges changed, as you note.

From what you describe, things seem on a better tack with your W.

I think you will figure out what is right for you in terms of the next step.

Lucky Jim

Yes, permanently changed!

She's dysregulated again tonight, but kept it tidy (ie not screaming at me), but the invalidation and silent treatment were there. Skype dropped the call, and she accused me of hanging up on her... .blah blah blah

So I deal with this stuff day to day still and expect to forever if I stay. Is that thriving... .No it isn't.

I don't know if it will work out with her, and I don't know if she'll go into black mode again.

I take it day by day, and stay permanently undecided. I'm OK with that I can enjoy my life like that. It works for now.

In any relationship we make a choice to stay or leave every day anyway. Mostly we don't do it consciously, because we just do what we did yesterday. I think if we both considered leaving each day, it would keep us on our toes and on our best behaviour.

[Indyan]

Mine has a strong dose of NPD as well as the BPD, which I actually find easier to manage than the abandonment of BPD. 

I'm always amazed when I see people mentionning "NPD" as if it was as "manageable"as BPD or even (as you said) MORE manageable than BPD (!). I mean, when my T told me my BPDbf was also NPD, it was a cold shower. And since then I've seen him differently, I see the calculating, manipulative person in him.

I'd rather deal with the desperate and clingy BPD, but maybe it's my mummy side that talks.

How do you deal with NPD?

[Moselle]

Mine has a strong dose of NPD as well as the BPD, which I actually find easier to manage than the abandonment of BPD.  

I'm always amazed when I see people mentionning "NPD" as if it was as "manageable"as BPD or even (as you said) MORE manageable than BPD (!). I mean, when my T told me my BPDbf was also NPD, it was a cold shower. And since then I've seen him differently, I see the calculating, manipulative person in him.

I'd rather deal with the desperate and clingy BPD, but maybe it's my mummy side that talks.

How do you deal with NPD?

I freaking give it horns. I tell it to "stop being a victim because it bores me". I tell it that I will not put up with nonsense in the least. If it starts to FOG, I say "I don't respond to the use of fear or guilt, or obligation - It just doesn't work anymore." If she tells me to "go find a flusie to f... ." I ask ":)o you have any good phone numbers", and laugh saying "thanks for the relationship advice".

I go straight for it, and never let it get one over on me - ever!

She gets a fright sometimes and that dazed wide look in her eyes, but rather in hers, than in mine  

BPD, is more complex for me, less manageable. The splitting comes from here I think, and the shutting down.

That's one reason I like my little Narky. It gets her up off her ass and working, even when she's low. And she's very capable.

I have some NPD as well in myself too, so I can relate better to it.

[thereishope]

Mine has a strong dose of NPD as well as the BPD, which I actually find easier to manage than the abandonment of BPD.  

I'm always amazed when I see people mentionning "NPD" as if it was as "manageable"as BPD or even (as you said) MORE manageable than BPD (!). I mean, when my T told me my BPDbf was also NPD, it was a cold shower. And since then I've seen him differently, I see the calculating, manipulative person in him.

I'd rather deal with the desperate and clingy BPD, but maybe it's my mummy side that talks.

How do you deal with NPD?

I freaking give it horns. I tell it to "stop being a victim because it bores me". I tell it that I will not put up with nonsense in the least. If it starts to FOG, I say "I don't respond to the use of fear or guilt, or obligation - It just doesn't work anymore." If she tells me to "go find a flusie to f... ." I ask ":)o you have any good phone numbers", and laugh saying "thanks for the relationship advice".

I go straight for it, and never let it get one over on me - ever!

She gets a fright sometimes and that dazed wide look in her eyes, but rather in hers, than in mine  

BPD, is more complex for me, less manageable. The splitting comes from here I think, and the shutting down.

That's one reason I like my little Narky. It gets her up off her ass and working, even when she's low. And she's very capable.

I have some NPD as well in myself too, so I can relate better to it.

I like this very much.  I believe uBPDh also has some N going on... .and I too find that facing it head on with truth and an I'm not going to take the BS that you are trying to dish out right now... .it has made things better to a certain extent.  I phrase it this way, "I no longer allow BPD to rule/control us"... .Somehow learning it was BPD/NPD took some of its power over me away.  It can still throw me for a loop, but it doesn't OVERWHELM me any longer. 

I too am living one day at a time, undecided every day. For today it works.  Tomorrow might be my diving off the cliff toward the light at the end of the tunnel!

[Indyan]

I freaking give it horns. I tell it to "stop being a victim because it bores me". I tell it that I will not put up with nonsense in the least. If it starts to FOG, I say "I don't respond to the use of fear or guilt, or obligation - It just doesn't work anymore." If she tells me to "go find a flusie to f... ." I ask ":)o you have any good phone numbers", and laugh saying "thanks for the relationship advice".

I go straight for it, and never let it get one over on me - ever!

Maybe it's easier when you're a man... .

I did answer that sort of stuff "stop being a victim" or "I don't respond to threats" in a very strict way. And strangely, he seemed very quiet and even doormatish after that, which is not at all what I was looking for).