The Bait on the Fishook

[Legacymaker]

To gather the background info and reduce the length of this post, please read my introduction in New Members and my post in L3, ":).E.A.R. Mother".

After a conference call to my mother on Sunday (with both husbands present), I watched my fb feed light up with my mother's happy messages.  I knew she was trying to self sooth.  She was all over the grandchild that she usually paints black, praising him.  She was posting photos from a trip we had taken together over 1 1/2years ago, the one that she has been complaining about non-stop and she was posting quotes of peace. 

So this morning I wake up to a private fb message from her, the one that I knew would soon come.  She wants to make sure that our husbands are not involved in this discussion.  She "just" wants me to acknowlege that I said something 1 1/2 years ago (while on the trip mentioned above) and that I need to admit that I was the one that made her unhappy then.  She "just" needs me to apologize for the argument that took place that summer! (We've had several since).  She believes that she is taking responsibility for ruining yet another Christmas, but she just needs me to admit I am wrong.

It was very difficult on Sunday to keep the conversation focused to the topic.  My husband and I used a script and tried very hard to stick to it.  Our last argument had covered a 30 year span of my failures.

In my studies, I have looked at:

triangulation, co-dependency, emotional memory and circular conversations.

I have read the book Stop Walking on Eggshells

With this latest argument, I have practiced the D.E.A.R (M.A.N.) technique.

I am interested in a way to respond that will keep us moving forward but that will not feed into the spiral message.  My inclination is to take her pain away by simply saying I'm sorry.  That would probably keep the peace for a few more months, but I recognize the need to break the cycle.

I am fairly new to the forum, so any feedback is most appreciated.

[delaney]

Maybe I'm a bit of a b---- but there's no way I'd apologize. I'd probably end up saying something like, "I'm not sorry because I didn't do anything wrong." Which would anger her further, but my mother tends to give me the silent treatment... . which is hurtful in a way (the way in which I know she's sitting around blaming me and refusing to acknowledge her own actions) but also great in a way (the way in which I don't have to hear from her).

[Sitara]

After a conference call to my mother on Sunday (with both husbands present), I watched my fb feed light up with my mother's happy messages.

After my mom crosses the line and she knows it (which is usually done in private), she will flip to extra-sweet in front of others to put on a show and say she doesn't understand why I'm so mad.  Dealing with pwBPD is a bit like dealing with multiple personalities as each type has a different method to deal with it.  Check out BPD BEHAVIORS: Waif, Hermit, Queen, and Witch https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61982.0

So this morning I wake up to a private fb message from her, the one that I knew would soon come.  She wants to make sure that our husbands are not involved in this discussion.

If you have decided that you do not want to have contact without a third party involved, make sure you uphold your boundary.  You can either not respond or respond with something short like saying my husband and I will call you later to discuss.  I've found it's important to be specific and clear when talking with my mom; if I'm too vague it leaves the door open for her to misinterpret for her benefit.  Have you looked at boundaries already? BOUNDARIES - Living our values https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries ;all

Our last argument had covered a 30 year span of my failures.

This is very common with pwBPD.  My mom has a couple of favorites she loves to throw out there - one is a promise I made when I was 5 that I didn't keep, and one is because I didn't hug her when I was a teen.  They have amazing memories for every imagined slight they've received over their lives. My husband and I have always been mystified by the amount of energy she would put into being miserable.

My inclination is to take her pain away by simply saying I'm sorry.  That would probably keep the peace for a few more months, but I recognize the need to break the cycle.

Do not apologize for something you did not do or have already apologized for.  It does not help.  There was once something my mom did that was incredibly hurtful but she refused to apologize because "everyone says I didn't do anything wrong!"  Then she brought up something she imagined I said that didn't actually happen, and I thought, ok, if I apologize for this thing she feels I did wrong, she'll respond by apologizing for the thing she actually did.  So I apologized, and she then sat there, silently glaring at me. I was crushed.  I felt like I had sold myself out for nothing.

If you feel that she's in actual pain you could acknowledge that you are aware of the fact she's hurting without apologizing for something you haven't done.

Kwamina is talking about validation here.  COMMUNICATION: Validation - tools and techniques https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

One last thread I can think of to check out is TOOLS: Being Assertive in a Healthy Way (DBT Skill) https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=206736.0

It focuses of using "I" statements to get your point across.

I know you've been reading a lot of things the last few days, it has to be a lot to absorb!

[Legacymaker]

Thank you for your responses Sitara, delaney and Kwamina.

I will take your suggestions into consideration.

My mother NEEDS to apologize to ME, big time!  She made a nearly unforgivable scene at Christmas.  If words were swords, I would be dead!  Instead, I am seriously wounded and still bleeding.  She told me "my children only love me because their father is alive.  She has a higher social status than us.  She will always be smarter than me and that I was being dramatic about my youngest son" (who had been in the hospital and undergoing tests over Christmas). 

After confronting her behavior, she is responding that she understands that I am upset and that she is embarrassed about her behavior (this was only a partial list of the things she said, the rest were her usual criticisms and a collection of things I had done wrong for the last 30 years).

Still she wants me to understand that she is mad because I didn't apologize to her for some infraction I committed over a year ago. 

Here is how minor that incident was.

My husband was driving us.  My mother had pushed my back against the wall for over an hour with her criticisms. I had remained silent. We were driving near a landmark and she wanted me to look at something that I've seen a hundred times. Literally, all I said is "I've seen it before"!  Now she is "hurt" because I never said I was sorry!  Have I mentioned that I am 50 years old?  I can't honestly say whether I said I am sorry or not.  I usually apologize when I need to, so I'm not sure that it seemed like a problem at the time.  I should have known it would become ammunition somewhere.

My husband feels that if I say I'm sorry for this, she will completely negate all responsibility she has accepted for her actions.

 

I can see that we are playing the game "tag, you're it".  Problem is, I don't want to play anymore and I don't know how to step off the merry go round. 

I suppose our biggest challenge is that she never lets ANYTHING go.  Every time I am with her. I upset her.   I am constantly in trouble for the way I look at her, what I say, what I don't say etc. etc.  Her list is very long. I was very close to going NC permanently but found these boards instead.  I am hoping that I can find better skills for coping.  I don't think at 70 she is too interested at changing much about herself.

Thank you for your example Sitara:

"This is very common with pwBPD.  My mom has a couple of favorites she loves to throw out there - one is a promise I made when I was 5 that I didn't keep, and one is because I didn't hug her when I was a teen.  They have amazing memories for every imagined slight they've received over their lives. My husband and I have always been mystified by the amount of energy she would put into being miserable."

It helps me realize I am not going crazy or imagining that they keep hold of things for forever!

[Sdmfoster]

After my mom crosses the line and she knows it (which is usually done in private), she will flip to extra-sweet in front of others to put on a show and say she doesn't understand why I'm so mad.  Dealing with pwBPD is a bit like dealing with multiple personalities as each type has a different method to deal with it.  Check out BPD BEHAVIORS: Waif, Hermit, Queen, and Witch https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61982.0

It's funny you say this Sitara, I found this site doing Google searches for "gaslighting", which is a form of this "putting on a show" behaviour so that we end up looking crazy. It's deadly effective, too. I just got a negative review at work because one of my co-workers is so good at it - in fact, I believe I may be dealing with another BPD person. It is so hard to deal with this kind of public-sweet / private-horrible person. 

[lucyhoneychurch]

Hi Legacy... . over the years as I have read posts here, the astonishment when I can almost jump ahead to what a fellow adult child of a uBPD'd parent (usually it's a mother as in my case) is going to describe or vent about - your posts rang so true for me and how I had to constantly shift tactics, decisions, resolutions where she was concerned.

She cut to the chase about your husbands listening in on the phone. She knows somewhere down in all the pot-stirring that she  will be caught out. I don't think they plan on the misdirects and avoidances, but they can't utilize what comes naturally if other people are witnesses.

Since this was *your* tactical decision to have these two gentlemen listen in, stick with it. First of all - I promise you that calls will decrease in frequency where you are stuck. The accusations will shift into more vague ones and perhaps ones you won't even feel need addressing (in my opinion, false accusations get zilch recognition even in passing).

As adults, we can choose when and how we talk or converse with other adults. Just because she says, "No, no more discussions with them listening in" doesn't mean you have to abide by her say-so. And here's the good part of this - YOUR decision that they WILL listen and help out means she can choose to either participate or not as well. She's a big girl. Disordered or not, troubled or not, she can get it through her head (only if you stick with your plan) that you are just fed up enough to have these rules and guidelines.

If you'll pardon me for saying so... . I can hear how much you want to be reasonable - how much you want to facilitate dialogue, and how much you are trying to really be the bigger person and rise above. All of us wish none of this stuff would happen. But there is nothing wrong in absolutely and totally taking a breather - "Mom, we're going to take a week or two and have some really quiet focus on our family" - that's not an unreasonable announcement - some people do it and it's called a lengthy vacation. 

You don't have to give her options. Where were yours, if you see what I mean?

She either plays nice or you won't play at all... . and by play I mean, talk to her via phone or text or email... . or whittle it down to only emails (harder to say you haven't said something when it's right there in black and white... . but they aren't really interested in the truth, are they?).

You aren't going to win this. I don't think you are trying to be the victor, I think you are aiming for a decent, compassionate solution to her behavior. The only trouble is... . it's HER behavior. I know people feel you can shape it with your responses. I just found it so exhausting and downright ridiculous (my efforts, not someone else's) that I gave up. And found the little bit of peace I ever could in my life. I am 51 and she's passed away now and for the first time in my life I can breathe because I know it. is. done.

My best to you - you are a good-hearted person. I am so very sorry you are swimming around in such dysfunction.

[Legacymaker]

Thank you LucyHoneyChurch,

You give some interesting insights to consider.  I am glad to hear you are near my age, we've had a lot of practice doing things the same way for years!

I was idealized by my mother for many years.  I was the "all good" child. My brother was a nightmare of a child.  He gave my parents tons of problems which basically left them ignoring me.  Looking at it with new eyes, he was screaming for attention as much as I was.  We all had a falling out a few years ago.   My brother and I didn't speak for 3 years.  He and my mother didn't speak for 18 months.  I blamed my brother. 

Last year, my brother insisted that we all get private counseling then meet with a mediator to see if we could heal our family dynamics.  It was then that I first heard about BPD/NPD.  I didn't realize how angry I was at my mother (I always thought it was at my brother).  I started to see how she had pit us against each other for our whole life.  I began standing up for myself and found myself disagreeing with her negativity. 

Now it seems that I have been "painted black" by my mother.  My brother and I are on cordial terms.  He has a lot of NPD tendencies so I still shy away from talking with him about my observations fo my mom, but he seems to really be working on better communication skills. 

I am feeling very old and very tired, lucyhoneychurch.  There are not many years remaining to enjoy peace, so it is time now for it to begin!

[lucyhoneychurch]

Legacy - to say that your brother is to be commended and *you* right along with him is an understatement... . both of you have broken her training/buttons installation of being pitted against the other (there were 4 of us and my mother did same), both of you have attempted to see your sibling in a new light.  One of the sadder stats I remember reading about sons of BPD'd mothers is they can very often end up in jail or dead by suicide. I lost one sibling to the latter.

All of us went so black and white so often, except for the one who's gone - he never got out of her big black wide paint brush and yet he was our best sweetest congenial.

Her oldest, I was the rescuer go-to-er between her and the rest, or my father, and I was expected by her to listen nonstop.

When you finally HAVE HAD ENOUGH and you say so, wow, here comes those industrial-sized VATS of black eh?

Tarred... . beyond description. But when they really rip our blinders off, sad to say, they are doing us this huge backwards awful favor of finally seeing our reality and our siblings' and where the blame lies - as damaged as our mothers are from their own childhood injuries and sadnesses (my mother's was rife with rejection and isolation and abandonment, both from her own recounting and relatives I can trust) but that doesn't mean we have to continue to be punching bags.

I am done emotionally and mentally on so many levels and have had to really reconnect with lovely things, with nature, with good friends and family who love me, who want the best for me.

And hey... . there are MANY years remaining, look at your glass as half full... . your body will mimic your mind - don't let your body start telling you as mine did just how sick and awful the secrets are and how much of a toll it will cost you. LIVE NOW and enjoy the good you have all around you, it's there.

And I wish you and your brother years of renewed contact and on whatever level you can give it to him (the only sibling I was in contact with that's now broken it is severely NPD'd due to her rearing him to think so and smothering him because she needed him dysfunctional) - where was I?

oh yes... . here's to you and your brother and a new year underway and reconstruction and hope.

big hug to each of you.