Can BPD also be people pleaser?

[Quantendynamik]

Although BPD is usually the one making all the requests and insists them being done his/her way, I realized that my BPD wife is so much a people pleaser when she is dealing with her clients: she tries to make everything perfect even for client requests that are way out of the line, some even put her into a risky situation, which causes great anxiety .  

We are not under financial pressure, and she knows that.   However, she sometimes just follows the lead of her clients, cannot say no.  Although she would never interact with anyone in the family the same way.  

Is this also one of the BPD's traits? As they are having trouble on recognizing boundaries.  Also their black and white way of reacting,  to quote my wife, "or what I can do? You know I am not supposed to simply yell at them, and tell them to f off. "

Or is it something else?

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[an0ught]

Hi QD,

it is well known that pwBPD are constantly stressed and there is a lot of drama around them. Guess what, some of the stress comes from lack of boundary skills. This can take two forms

- over the top aggressive behavior i.e. attack before the boundary is crossed

- helplessness when the boundary is crossed

gentle coaching on how to deal with these situations can be helpful. The dilemma here is that the more we get involved in protecting them the more the relationship gets enmeshed which decreased the ability to regulate emotions within the relationship. So the operative words are respectful distance and coaching i.e. leaving the responsibility of what SO does with our opinion with them.

[waverider]

People pleasing can also be another form of self centredness. Though its not obvious at first. What they are doing, is not to make the other person happy or improve their life. It is about getting approval from the other person. It is about what they are trying to get from the other person. Hence their generosity has to be high visible approval.

This can often show as gift giving, with much show, rather than just quietly doing something that will get little notice or praise.

If this approval/praise is not forthcoming, they can then switch to blackening the other person as they didn't get due 'payment' for their efforts, and feel cheated.'I did this for you, so now you have to be nice to me"

An example in our house would be if my partner helped more with the housework... . not going to happen no drum rolls come with that. But she will go buy me an expensive bottle of wine all gift wrapped with a big show of me trying it and telling her how great it is. Even though I have expressly stated i don't like money being wasted on things like that. It is not about what I wanted, it is about the big drum roll presentation and show of generosity. I am now not allowed to be critical of her after she has been so generous. she just bought brownie points.

It can also be why they can make excellent sales people. Perception of generosity to get a result they want. Your wife needs her clients business and approval, even if its a financial loss it is about having won what she wants. She does not need to buy yours.

[Happy1]

I concur with waverider, it's about looking good and setting things up for the future. If it's a public display kind of thing where the BPD is interacting in public (outside the family/r/s dynamic) space, it's about looking NORMAL and professional. Often times going the extra distance to promote their public "face" which critically important to look ever so good and normal, while "hiding" the disorder.

Inside the family dynamic/r/s, it's about maybe guilty feelings from some other transgression or rage incident. Part of the push/pull dynamic of the r/s, I'd say.

The biggest thing to remember is, they're acutely aware of their narc. supply and sources at all times both publicly/professionally and within the family/r/s structure. This might oscillate within the family/rs dynamic. If they have a family, one person might be painted white, while others are black, with this moving around a bunch, but only so long as there is at least one white person to receive supply from. When it 's just a r/s dynamic alone, this is when they often will look outside of the r/s for narc. supply. And, if they're in the public space a lot, they can use this to cultivate or maintain narc. supply when the individual in the r/s (or all individuals in the family) are painted black. It's crafty, but yet a survival strategy as well. And again, they're very good at ebbing and flowing to where narc. supply is available and keeping it cultivated.

My exuBPDgf when we'd have a fight, never seemed to internalize any of it. If she pissed me off to where I'd complain about her in some way or wouldn't talk to her out of frustration, she'd simply contact someone outside of our r/s, an old lover, another male friend, girl friend, etc. to distract herself and to deflect too. But always to be with some source of narc. supply. Another common strategy was she'd just head to work, or go out with another friend (ex) and go out and spend a lot of time trying to please that person so, that she might have an engaged time with that person in order to not have to deal with the any issues within our r/s. I never once, could get her to pause for one moment about HER behavior (our r/s troubles) and to reflect. If I was upset, she'd head for the door and on to interacting immediately with someone else somewhere some how, coming across as sweet as pie to whom ever without a care in the world. It was very frustrating to watch. However, if she was pissed or felt I'd wronged her, she'd never let me her the end of it, didn't want me to divert. She'd harangue me forever if I did not sit for hours discussing or listening to her rage about my supposed transgression or slight.

[Quantendynamik]

Thanks an0ught.  That sounds right.

Hi QD,

it is well known that pwBPD are constantly stressed and there is a lot of drama around them. Guess what, some of the stress comes from lack of boundary skills. This can take two forms

- over the top aggressive behavior i.e. attack before the boundary is crossed

- helplessness when the boundary is crossed

gentle coaching on how to deal with these situations can be helpful. The dilemma here is that the more we get involved in protecting them the more the relationship gets enmeshed which decreased the ability to regulate emotions within the relationship. So the operative words are respectful distance and coaching i.e. leaving the responsibility of what SO does with our opinion with them.

[Quantendynamik]

Well said, waverider.  It is so true.  Now I can see what her mom and her have in common.  My MIL would try to do all housework, even the ones I really do not need, such as serving well processed fruits to wherever I am in the house.  In return, she must be considered the best mom in the world and have to rule the house.  What am I supposed to react?  Turning her down would be considered ingratitude, and trigger her drama reaction. 

I also observed the difference between my MIL and my wife: while my wife will turn angry when she is in the mood, my MIL would just do another stupid drama. 

I understand those disorders are usually mixed up: is this trait more BPD or HPD?

People pleasing can also be another form of self centredness. Though its not obvious at first. What they are doing, is not to make the other person happy or improve their life. It is about getting approval from the other person. It is about what they are trying to get from the other person. Hence their generosity has to be high visible approval.

This can often show as gift giving, with much show, rather than just quietly doing something that will get little notice or praise.

If this approval/praise is not forthcoming, they can then switch to blackening the other person as they didn't get due 'payment' for their efforts, and feel cheated.'I did this for you, so now you have to be nice to me"

An example in our house would be if my partner helped more with the housework... . not going to happen no drum rolls come with that. But she will go buy me an expensive bottle of wine all gift wrapped with a big show of me trying it and telling her how great it is. Even though I have expressly stated i don't like money being wasted on things like that. It is not about what I wanted, it is about the big drum roll presentation and show of generosity. I am now not allowed to be critical of her after she has been so generous. she just bought brownie points.

It can also be why they can make excellent sales people. Perception of generosity to get a result they want. Your wife needs her clients business and approval, even if its a financial loss it is about having won what she wants. She does not need to buy yours.

[Murbay]

Well said, waverider.  It is so true.  Now I can see what her mom and her have in common.  My MIL would try to do all housework, even the ones I really do not need, such as serving well processed fruits to wherever I am in the house.  In return, she must be considered the best mom in the world and have to rule the house.  What am I supposed to react?  Turning her down would be considered ingratitude, and trigger her drama reaction. 

I said those very same words to my T. If turn them down, I'm ungrateful and if I accept it's used against me the next time I disagree with "the family" It was the ultimate form of control in my marriage to exBPDw because it puts you in a lose-lose situation.

It wasn't just me, they (exBPDw and exMIL) did it to everyone, neighbours would run back into the house or sneak out while family weren't looking. They would get angry and devalue people when praise wasn't forthcoming. Saw themselves as the most selfless people on the planet. Would try and guilt trip those they had forced their "help" onto in the past. A recent email from exMIL about the fact I am NC with exBPDw, I was reminded how they bought my daughter clothes 3 years ago, this was despite  being asked not to. Even christmas and birthday presents were conditional too.

My T put this down to NPD on top of the BPD but that is also because of other factors too.

[Quantendynamik]

Exactly. LOL, even though it is the opposite of fun to be actually involved.   However, it certainly feels good having people like you to talk about it, sharing stories.

My MIL actually picks up some of those actions that I did to my wife as romantic gestures, such as serving breakfast to the bed.  However while I only did that occasionally,  my MIL is trying to do it every day. 

(fortunately, she leaves the breakfast at the door when we are not up yet).   Actually I think it is a little bit too much.   When I try to actually do it before she can, she went upset.  It feels like it becomes certain kind of competition. 

I will let my T know when I have the time to visit and let she/him decide what the trait is.

Thanks for sharing.

It wasn't just me, they (exBPDw and exMIL) did it to everyone, neighbours would run back into the house or sneak out while family weren't looking. They would get angry and devalue people when praise wasn't forthcoming. Saw themselves as the most selfless people on the planet. Would try and guilt trip those they had forced their "help" onto in the past. A recent email from exMIL about the fact I am NC with exBPDw, I was reminded how they bought my daughter clothes 3 years ago, this was despite  being asked not to. Even christmas and birthday presents were conditional too.

My T put this down to NPD on top of the BPD but that is also because of other factors too.

[tabular]

My ex just can't say no. So when I would suggest that we go out and he doesn't have time because he is stressed with work (I wouldn't know), he won't just tell me 'no, sorry, I can't'. Instead, he'd go out with me and then resent me the entire evening and hold it against me that I made him go out even though he was stressed with work. He does the same to his family (but without the resenting - at least not in front of them, I'd get that later). When I ask him why he just can't say 'no', he'd say that it is because he would feel guilty and he doesn't want to feel guilty. He doesn't seem to understand that resenting me and ruining my evening is much worse / should make him feel much more guilty than simply saying, sorry - I don't have time tonight.

[Murbay]

My MIL actually picks up some of those actions that I did to my wife as romantic gestures, such as serving breakfast to the bed.  However while I only did that occasionally,  my MIL is trying to do it every day. 

(fortunately, she leaves the breakfast at the door when we are not up yet).   Actually I think it is a little bit too much.   When I try to actually do it before she can, she went upset.  It feels like it becomes certain kind of competition. 

I completely forgot about that aspect of it. It felt exactly like that, a competition 

I can be competitive but only when it comes down to sport, I have never felt the need to compete against others and it was quite frustrating. How my T described it was that exMIL was competing for her life. She had complete control of the household and would not allow exBPDw to detach. We are seen as a threat so they compete to prove they are better than us, even if what we did was only romantic gestures, out of fear that our pwBPD would grow an attachment to us and not NEED them.

Exw was her narcissistic supply and we were perceived as a threat to it as she kept her in a constant childlike state and nothing was ever good enough for her but it was always someone elses fault. The closer we got, the more she stepped up the game and created arguments between us to keep that wedge in place.

So again, in answer to OP, yes they can be people pleasers but it might be better looking at the whole family dynamic. ExMIL pleased people so she could be adored in order to keep her narcissistic supply and keep her dominance over her family. As for exFIL, T said to forget about him completely because he was just a mindless drone that did exactly what he was told, when he was told and was not allowed to have thoughts and opinions of his own. An extreme case of codependency.

ExBPDw was a people pleaser because she was never good enough in her mothers eyes, the goal posts constantly moved. She pleased people to appease her mother firstly because that was her life model and secondly to seek approval.

[Quantendynamik]

Now that you said it, I realize that my uBPDw does this all the time.

My ex just can't say no. So when I would suggest that we go out and he doesn't have time because he is stressed with work (I wouldn't know), he won't just tell me 'no, sorry, I can't'. Instead, he'd go out with me and then resent me the entire evening and hold it against me that I made him go out even though he was stressed with work. He does the same to his family (but without the resenting - at least not in front of them, I'd get that later). When I ask him why he just can't say 'no', he'd say that it is because he would feel guilty and he doesn't want to feel guilty. He doesn't seem to understand that resenting me and ruining my evening is much worse / should make him feel much more guilty than simply saying, sorry - I don't have time tonight.

[Quantendynamik]

So true.  Well said.  It is exactly like that.  What a combo to live with.   

My MIL actually picks up some of those actions that I did to my wife as romantic gestures, such as serving breakfast to the bed.  However while I only did that occasionally,  my MIL is trying to do it every day. 

(fortunately, she leaves the breakfast at the door when we are not up yet).   Actually I think it is a little bit too much.   When I try to actually do it before she can, she went upset.  It feels like it becomes certain kind of competition. 

I completely forgot about that aspect of it. It felt exactly like that, a competition 

I can be competitive but only when it comes down to sport, I have never felt the need to compete against others and it was quite frustrating. How my T described it was that exMIL was competing for her life. She had complete control of the household and would not allow exBPDw to detach. We are seen as a threat so they compete to prove they are better than us, even if what we did was only romantic gestures, out of fear that our pwBPD would grow an attachment to us and not NEED them.

Exw was her narcissistic supply and we were perceived as a threat to it as she kept her in a constant childlike state and nothing was ever good enough for her but it was always someone elses fault. The closer we got, the more she stepped up the game and created arguments between us to keep that wedge in place.

So again, in answer to OP, yes they can be people pleasers but it might be better looking at the whole family dynamic. ExMIL pleased people so she could be adored in order to keep her narcissistic supply and keep her dominance over her family. As for exFIL, T said to forget about him completely because he was just a mindless drone that did exactly what he was told, when he was told and was not allowed to have thoughts and opinions of his own. An extreme case of codependency.

ExBPDw was a people pleaser because she was never good enough in her mothers eyes, the goal posts constantly moved. She pleased people to appease her mother firstly because that was her life model and secondly to seek approval.

[pixiecat]

Can BPD also be people pleaser?

YES!  A resounding yes.

My pwBPD has serious problems in this area and it's a recurrent cause of a lot of unhappiness and problems for us.  He's severely codependent with very poor, close to non-existent, boundaries.  What happens is this:

1. Goes along with something he doesn't want to do because he thinks it's what I want.

2. He won't give any actual indication he doesn't want to do it.  In fact, he will not only hide that he doesn't want to do it, he'll be enthusiastic and encouraging.

3. He'll be getting more and more silently upset, feeling that I've transgressed his boundary.

4. After the fact, he'll erupt at me and tell me I've transgressed his boundary.  His feelings become objective reality to him (typical BPD). 

5. When I point out that he went along with something, or encouraged it, he'll point to very subtle clues or things I just 'should've known' - even though his words and actions didn't match that.

6. He gets incredibly upset if I tell him I would've been OK with not doing whatever it was if he'd told me as it creates a huge dissonance for him and his belief about the events.

An example: He'll invite me over to his house and then treat me horribly.  As soon as I leave, I'll get nasty and angry messages saying ':)on't ever come to my house again.  I didn't invite you' - when he allowed me to and blatantly did invite me to.

His boundaries bounce between being way too soft and too rigid.  With a lot of work, he is getting very slightly better at setting boundaries correctly, but the above scenario does occasionally happen still.  He knows he has no boundaries and when we talk about it afterwards, he'll know it's because of that, but at the time he feels entirely like I have transgressed his boundary.

[Theo41]

My experience is identical to wave rider. I also think that gift giving and card writing is a way she tries to get back in good graces. It's easy to be upset with her when she disregulates but when a gift is received from her along with a beautifully written card, it's hard to be mad.

She is also a very successful  salesperson,  and a house devil/ street angel. Theo

[tabular]

An example: He'll invite me over to his house and then treat me horribly.  As soon as I leave, I'll get nasty and angry messages saying ':)on't ever come to my house again.  I didn't invite you' - when he allowed me to and blatantly did invite me to.

Everything you're describing is exactly how my ex is/was as well! The only difference is: once he's reproached me forever that I came to his place even though I should have known that he is busy, and I'd leave, I'd then get desperate texts and calls saying: 'Why did you leave? I did not ask you to leave! Please come back!'

[Theo41]

They also can not tolerate abandonment. Mine has done everything from begging me to come back, to standing on a chair on the balcony and threatening to fall 5 stories, to threatening to ruin my reputation with  people and family most important to me. It takes more courage than I have been able to muster to test all of that. They are difficult to deal with and even harder to leave. Most of the advise I have received has been to carefully plan an exit and leave while they are gone and without forewarning.

[tabular]

Mine punched through a picture frame and broke his hand when I wanted to leave once. Glass everywhere, loud shattering… of course I turned around and came back. When I told him (once all was calm again) that this is not normal behaviour, he just said 'it made you come back, didn't it?' 

[waverider]

Mine punched through a picture frame and broke his hand when I wanted to leave once. Glass everywhere, loud shattering… of course I turned around and came back. When I told him (once all was calm again) that this is not normal behaviour, he just said 'it made you come back, didn't it?'  

Did you learn a lesson from this?

[tabular]

waverider: I learnt that he has issues  But I did not learn not to leave in the middle of a tantrum, which led to a lot of drama and him dumping me... .

[Hutsepotmetworst]

My exuBPDgf when we'd have a fight, never seemed to internalize any of it. If she pissed me off to where I'd complain about her in some way or wouldn't talk to her out of frustration, she'd simply contact someone outside of our r/s, an old lover, another male friend, girl friend, etc. to distract herself and to deflect too. But always to be with some source of narc. supply. Another common strategy was she'd just head to work, or go out with another friend (ex) and go out and spend a lot of time trying to please that person so, that she might have an engaged time with that person in order to not have to deal with the any issues within our r/s. I never once, could get her to pause for one moment about HER behavior (our r/s troubles) and to reflect. If I was upset, she'd head for the door and on to interacting immediately with someone else somewhere some how, coming across as sweet as pie to whom ever without a care in the world. It was very frustrating to watch. However, if she was pissed or felt I'd wronged her, she'd never let me her the end of it, didn't want me to divert. She'd harangue me forever if I did not sit for hours discussing or listening to her rage about my supposed transgression or slight.

Man, this is so recognizable ! 

I first thought of it as an attempt to make me jealous, or to punish me for not being good enough to her. But it will be like you have put it so nicely, it's all about her, just wanting validation and positive attention from whoever she can get it. 

[slimmiller]

Exw was her narcissistic supply and we were perceived as a threat to it as she kept her in a constant childlike state and nothing was ever good enough for her but it was always someone elses fault. The closer we got, the more she stepped up the game and created arguments between us to keep that wedge in place.

Interesting... .   I recently read 'Safe People' (a very good book albeit a little preachy) and in light of reading that, the above statement makes a lot of sense. My exBPD seemed to always somehow drive a wedge between us even deliberately so when things were good ('I dont deserve you', 'you deserve better', and the always self effacing comments of 'I feel so empty', 'I dont know what my purpose is in life'... . )

She was deeply invalidated by her witch/waif BPD mother as a child and she always drives this wedge and I think in all reality its a control mechanism for her. Or more precisely, a self preservation mechanism. Because her doing so gave her an envelope of saftey around her because she was in control to a degree of how close I got to her. She could not afford to allow me too close because I was going to do what everyone that has ever cared for her in the past is going to do, leave her. (In her mind)

So in light of all that, her cruelty, lying, infidelity and cheating go along with that her life is much more of a Hell then she can ever create for me