Did anybody else see it?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

In the early days, when all your dreams had come true & you enjoyed the best honeymoon period the world have ever known, even then, did anyone around you, that cares about you, see through it?

Even when she was on her best behaviour, idealising me & acting like we were soulmates... There were people around me that smelt a rat! (Mostly women funnily enough)!

My sister, straight off the bat wasn't comfortable with something about my uBPDex, but couldn't put her finger on it.

A guy I worked with (hadn't even met her), just from my description of how perfect everything was, said he was suspicious. Few weeks later when he noticed how much she was texting me, and sexting me, he called her a "wrong'n".

A wife of a friend of mine, noticed that my uBPDex talked of her divorce with absolutely no emotion! She commented on how coldly she talked of walking away from an 8 year marriage with kids involved.

My mother wasn't happy but didn't know why. Just said her gut didn't feel good about me being with her!

I noticed a number of females, friends wives & girlfriends, didn't seem to take to her, or trust her.


Were there people around you, not under the BPD spell, that foresaw tears?

[Moonie75]

In the early days, when all your dreams had come true & you enjoyed the best honeymoon period the world have ever known, even then, did anyone around you, that cares about you, see through it?

Even when she was on her best behaviour, idealising me & acting like we were soulmates... There were people around me that smelt a rat! (Mostly women funnily enough)!

My sister, straight off the bat wasn't comfortable with something about my uBPDex, but couldn't put her finger on it.

A guy I worked with (hadn't even met her), just from my description of how perfect everything was, said he was suspicious. Few weeks later when he noticed how much she was texting me, and sexting me, he called her a "wrong'n".

A wife of a friend of mine, noticed that my uBPDex talked of her divorce with absolutely no emotion! She commented on how coldly she talked of walking away from an 8 year marriage with kids involved.

My mother wasn't happy but didn't know why. Just said her gut didn't feel good about me being with her!

I noticed a number of females, friends wives & girlfriends, didn't seem to take to her, or trust her.


Were there people around you, not under the BPD spell, that foresaw tears?

[Surnia]

Hi Moonie

I think this is something not only regarding  mental problems, when falling in love. Perhaps it would be great to ask people around us when (or even before!) falling in love: He, what do you think about him/her? Could this person be someone for me?

I never did this. And made some very poor choices in my par-ship life. Okay - I learned a lot - the painful way.   

[Turkish]

My buddy's wife, who is also my friend, didnt like her from the first moment we met in a store. One major incident when the four of us were on a weekend getaway sealed it. She said next time she's not keeping her mouth shut. I finally told my mom about the BPD,.and my mom said, "of course she's BPD." My mom, disordered as she is, worked in the health field for 40 years and first came across BPD in the 80s.

The funny thing is when my x was talking about The Love Of Her Life (a bf 18 months previous who left her out of the blue, devastating her), she said his friends never liked her.

[Soulsisters]

 

That question has baffled me through this entire experience as well.  My x always thought that everyone hated him and he would make it my problem to fix.  

About mid way through our marriage I paid more attention to how people reacted to him.  They didn't like him.  He didn't like them either.  It was subtle, but there was no bonding.

The worst part of that scenario, other than spending 20 years trying to fix him.  Was that when I had to leave he somehow managed to get all of my old friends believing his stories about me.

How did he do that?  

He had no friends and suddenly he has all of mine?  It made no sense.  

[Perfidy]

Moonie... Everyone saw it including me. Hell, I didn't even have to guess, she flat out told me that she was diagnosed with BPD and other pds but I had no idea what I was in for! Plus she is a meth addict! It doesn't take a ton of bricks to fall on me. It's no damn wonder I became suicidal after more than seven years of this chit.

Having said that, I practice self awareness now. I use thought aversion. I have a counselor. I have been learning CBT and DBT and looking at other therapy alternatives. At least I'm not drinking every day and using drugs myself. I've considered castration and lobotomy. Ok, so what's a little personality disorder? Exposed my own core issues. I was fine when they weren't exposed.

So in conclusion, the big question is being answered. Why did I choose such a bad partner. The answer is plain and very short. Me.

[myself]

I thought the future's what you make of it. I was right.

[Turkish]

Moonie... Everyone saw it including me. Hell, I didn't even have to guess, she flat out told me that she was diagnosed with BPD and other pds but I had no idea what I was in for! Plus she is a meth addict! It doesn't take a ton of bricks to fall on me. It's no damn wonder I became suicidal after more than seven years of this chit.

Having said that, I practice self awareness now. I use thought aversion. I have a counselor. I have been learning CBT and DBT and looking at other therapy alternatives. At least I'm not drinking every day and using drugs myself. I've considered castration and lobotomy. Ok, so what's a little personality disorder? Exposed my own core issues. I was fine when they weren't exposed.

So in conclusion, the big question is being answered. Why did I choose such a bad partner. The answer is plain and very short. Me.

Castration and a lobotomy... . priceless, Perfidy. And I thought my thoughts of entering a monastic order were extreme. Your methods get straight to the point, none of that self reflection crap!

[Moonie75]

Moonie... Everyone saw it including me. Hell, I didn't even have to guess, she flat out told me that she was diagnosed with BPD and other pds but I had no idea what I was in for! Plus she is a meth addict! It doesn't take a ton of bricks to fall on me. It's no damn wonder I became suicidal after more than seven years of this chit.

Having said that, I practice self awareness now. I use thought aversion. I have a counselor. I have been learning CBT and DBT and looking at other therapy alternatives. At least I'm not drinking every day and using drugs myself. I've considered castration and lobotomy. Ok, so what's a little personality disorder? Exposed my own core issues. I was fine when they weren't exposed.

So in conclusion, the big question is being answered. Why did I choose such a bad partner. The answer is plain and very short. Me.

Things is Perfiddy, not all of us introduced a confessed diagnosed meth using BPDer with other pd's to our friends & family.

Some (myself included), were duped by high functioning, undiagnosed, none drug users. People that looked & seemed to be healthy.

That's not a dig at you Perf. Just that some of us were dealing with better covered up BPD (in the beginning).

[Perfidy]

Moonie... . She could pull that off, but only briefly. I didn't want it to last. It was supposed to be a fricking one night stand! She was sixteen years younger. 26 when I met her. I was 43. I'm 52 now. It will be a year in march since we officially "broke up". She pulled all that wounded bird borderline crap and I sucked it all up like a dry sponge. Pathetic.

[Turkish]

Moonie... . She could pull that off, but only briefly. I didn't want it to last. It was supposed to be a fricking one night stand! She was sixteen years younger. 26 when I met her. I was 43. I'm 52 now. It will be a year in march since we officially "broke up". She pulled all that wounded bird borderline crap and I sucked it all up like a dry sponge. Pathetic.

I'm 42, she just turned 32, almost 11 years younger since I'm a Scorpio. My new rule will be +10/-7.  I know some people say it works for them (and I think mist of these are lying), but the generational gap is a new red flag for me. I had already graduated high school and moved out f my mom's house when she was a little 7 year old girl running around the farm in her home country. I had done three years of college and was working for a fortune 500 company and she was still the same. I used to joke with her what if I had run into her as a 12 year old girl on the street (her family had emigrated by then) saying " I'll see YOU in 14 years!"

She seemed mature at 26. Little did I know... .

[Ironmanrises]

During friendship phase, when my exUBPDgf would shower me with attention on Facebook, one of my close male friends warned me that something about that was off. He would reference the attention she was giving to me was being fine fore to return that very attention. At that point, I had no f¥cking idea about BPD or zany thing remotely close. I just knew something was not right. That would prove to be the very top of the iceberg that barely breaks the surface of the water, while the more dangerous part, mostly lies hidden below the surface.

[Moonie75]

Thanks for pulling the thread back on track Ironman.

Yeah I had friends notice the fb bombing & comment. In fact, a few noticed there was an air of immaturity in her Facebook, and inappropriateness.

I never realised it was an attempt to get me to fire the attention back onto her.

[santa]

Everyone saw it. I even saw it. I just didn't care.

[Ironmanrises]

When I described to that very friend her push/pull behavior that led to the first "pseudo-discard" which happened in friendship phase(before the relationship even started), he reminded me of the attention she was exhibiting from the get go was related to what I had been experiencing. He said, "She is trouble, Ironmanfalls." I thought he was exaggerating.

[State85]

Yes... .

My cousin mentioned to my sister, after he only met her briefly... . "State, better be careful"

My sister and her friends noticed how her eyes looked when she posted on FB, that's pretty defining.

After meeting my family and families friends, she came back with all of them as FB friends immediately... .

Friends and family noticed how she lived on FB, always posting pics of herself, what she was doing, constantly wanting to be acknowledged and noticed.

I was blind... . now I see... .

[charred]

Oh yes... my friends said she seemed phony, my mother didn't like her, said she was overly emotional and phony... . my sister liked her (because she thought a r/s with her and me would be hysterical to witness... she introduced me.) My dad liked her till she disagreed with him about religion/morals and confronted him about his lying.   These were all 20+ yrs ago, the first go round.

This time around... my exwife called how the r/s would go and was dead on; (she is nuts... you will leave me, get a divorce, think you have it made and then find out how nuts she is.) My sister warned her not to screw me over or she would clean her clock (after the devastation the first time.) My mom once again said she seems phony. My coworkers met her on a trip... most thought she was delightful... one asked if she was a kook... he said she reminded him of his wife... whom he wanted to divorce.

Wish I had seen it earlier and been able to avoid it.

[Pearl55]

A 3 year old in adult body becomes nuts. The more clever they are the more expert they are at hiding it. As a woman when I see these female borderlines I can recognise them within 10 minutes of talking. I posted before, their speech patterns ( lack of details), body language,... .

are very different to normal women.

I was out with my friends last night and I know one of my friend's friend is a borderline too. She knew I'm very upset because of my divorce and she said that's life, I hate all men. I said but you've got a boyfriend now. She said I always lie to him and to my exes and enjoy it because they deserve it ?

[Pretty Woman]

My relationship was "secret" during the honeymoon phase. It was my first same sex relationship so I didn't tell anyone.

Because of this, I was isolated which didn't make things better once she started devaluing me. I couldn't tell anyone at the time.  People closest to me finally found out once she left me (the third time). I was a complete mess. No one liked her as she kept dumping me.

I am currently dating someone new and it is not easy. Everyone LOVES her and with good reason. I am happier but still missing my ex who is not good for me at all. I hope someday I get completely over her. With Valentine's Day around the corner it is especially hard.

I just ordered a bracelet for my new girlfriend. It's leather and metal and has the latitude and longitude coordinates of where we met.  It took me an hr to hit the "send payment" button. I kept thinking about my ex and how she would have treasured this.

I had a wallet with a moneyclip engraved for her once and she treasured that. She loved it so much. Problem was she never loved me.

Sorry, sort of melancholy today.

[Murbay]

Everybody saw it in my exBPDw and some of them never even met her. Things I thought were endearing, they took a very different view of but they saw I was happy and that meant more to them.

Like you, it tended to be more women that noticed. My ex didn't like it from the start but my exBPDw convinced me it was jealousy and that she just wanted me back. My mother noticed again too, but my exBPDw convinced me that it was my mother who had issues and it was because she couldn't let go.

One of my female friends doesn't hold back with anything she says, her words to me were that if she didn't hear from me for a while, she could safely assume I was buried under a patio somewhere.

It seemed everyone who came into contact with her had something negative to say. She even had issues with her own friends and family too so it wasn't one sided.

Yet, despite all of that I wondered why people couldn't see the person I could and now I know, they weren't emotionally attached to her so she didn't have to hide away from them.

[Lol4fun]

My really good friend who was a year out from a divorce was the first one to meet my ex.  She is a very outgoing individual who can talk and get along with pretty much anyone. The three of us were sitting at a table in a bar and it was like pulling teeth for there to be any type of conversation.  I could read my friend and could tell that she was putting on an act that she liked him but I knew that she didn't.  My ex I think picked up on it and I could tell he was extremely uncomfortable and didn't quite know how to act.  When I asked my friend about it a day or two later she said I don't know if its a good idea for you to keep dating him.  He is messed up and too fresh out of a divorce to know what he wants be careful.  I should have listened. However, the idealization phase was messing with my logical brain that was telling me to run... . and I believed him when he said yeah I'm in the best frame of mind my marriage was over long ago we were basically just two friends living under the same roof.  Ummm yeah right .

[Kadee]

We met and were engaged in college. I had someone whom I barely knew give me the strongest warning to get uninvolved. I don't remember her face now, 36 years later, but her words haunt me. She might have been the guardian angel that I ignored.

Others too, throughout the marriage, but I was trying to make it work, so I let their words float over me. Looking back, I should have made different decisions. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say, but I've now taken off the rose colored glasses.

[DownandOut]

Ironically, many of the women in my life felt the same about it.

[Madison66]

We didn't hang with a lot of people in the first few months and she kept her waif and NPD behavior private and specific to me.  When I would have phone discussions with family members and friends when the neediness, lack of empathy and emotional dysregulation would ramp up they would all tell me things didn't sound right and to be careful.  I had my brother tell me straight up several times that I should move on and that the baggage was too much.  Like many here, I let her convince me that she never had these issues with anyone else and it must just be "dynamic" between the two of us.  Well, her ex h left her for another woman and she described a former bf basically falling apart emotionally and physically after she broke it off with him.  

Again, others told me to "run" early on just based on my stories... .

[Moonie75]

A 3 year old in adult body becomes nuts. The more clever they are the more expert they are at hiding it. As a woman when I see these female borderlines I can recognise them within 10 minutes of talking. I posted before, their speech patterns ( lack of details), body language,... .

are very different to normal women.

Oh Pearl, please elaborate on what you notice about the speech patterns & body language... I think a lot of us (like me) may benefit from your wisdom on this.

Moonie

[love4meNOTu]

Yes, both of my best friends.

Friend #1 - said she never liked him, he appeared to her to be arrogant and immature. She didn't tell me this until the other day. But I think my ex husband sensed it, he told me he hated her during one of his rages.

Friend #2 - Initially said that she thought he "fell from a star". And to progress slowly... . None of this advice did I heed in any way. Later, when we were divorcing, she told me she saw some strange behavior at our wedding. Apparently he was ordering me around... I was running late for pictures and he yelled my name in a very gruff manner... like I was supposed to obey him. Honestly, I didn't notice, but she did.

My mom - didn't like him from the first meeting. Didn't tell me why until after he was gone. She said she thought he was not a good man. That his "history" didn't make any sense, and that she didn't understand why he couldn't take care of himself and his son. That if it were her, she would have worked at two jobs to support her children.

So much for that... .

L

[Murbay]

So very true Pearl55 in the sense that the more clever they are the more expert they are at hiding it. My exBPDw could pull the wool over anybodys eyes, behind closed doors she was nasty and manipulative, even described intimidation as one of her finest qualities.

It became impossible to talk to anybody because if you tried to tell anybody what she was truly like they would look at you as though you were the crazy one. My lifeline came in the form of her ex T because he saw straight through it and was clever enough to know how to get behind the mask and expose her core. When he refused to see her and asked to take me on instead, she took that as validation that it was me and not her that was the issue. To hear my T apologise to me for what he now knew, I broke down in tears. Although he is in a different country, he is still my T and we have Skype appointments monthly.

He was the one who got me to see that she was a 7 year old in the body of an adult and that what was keeping me trapped was that I was trying to protect and save the child. Making excuses for her behaviour and that I needed to see her as an adult but with the emotional capacity of a 7 year old. She was an expert manipulator in every sense of the word and he didn't think I was strong enough to break free. We both celebrated when I did. I do get the impression that part of him is still very angry at her because initially she had him fooled too, I guess that probably affected his ego a little too.

Body language and speech patterns are very difficult for me to pick up. Having Aspergers, it is one area I really struggle with. When I get to know someone really well they are easy to read but in the BPD world, by that time you are already in idealisation phase and it's too late. I did notice with my exBPDw, she was very cold and her speech was disassociated. She would talk through you instead of to you as though you weren't there. When she was excited her voice was almost childlike and too sugary. When she needed something or wanted attention, that's what would come out too. It was very much the child wanting attention right down to the voice and the words she used.

[Turkish]

So very true Pearl55 in the sense that the more clever they are the more expert they are at hiding it. My exBPDw could pull the wool over anybodys eyes, behind closed doors she was nasty and manipulative, even described intimidation as one of her finest qualities.

It became impossible to talk to anybody because if you tried to tell anybody what she was truly like they would look at you as though you were the crazy one. My lifeline came in the form of her ex T because he saw straight through it and was clever enough to know how to get behind the mask and expose her core. When he refused to see her and asked to take me on instead, she took that as validation that it was me and not her that was the issue. To hear my T apologise to me for what he now knew, I broke down in tears. Although he is in a different country, he is still my T and we have Skype appointments monthly.

He was the one who got me to see that she was a 7 year old in the body of an adult and that what was keeping me trapped was that I was trying to protect and save the child. Making excuses for her behaviour and that I needed to see her as an adult but with the emotional capacity of a 7 year old. She was an expert manipulator in every sense of the word and he didn't think I was strong enough to break free. We both celebrated when I did. I do get the impression that part of him is still very angry at her because initially she had him fooled too, I guess that probably affected his ego a little too.

Body language and speech patterns are very difficult for me to pick up. Having Aspergers, it is one area I really struggle with. When I get to know someone really well they are easy to read but in the BPD world, by that time you are already in idealisation phase and it's too late. I did notice with my exBPDw, she was very cold and her speech was disassociated. She would talk through you instead of to you as though you weren't there. When she was excited her voice was almost childlike and too sugary. When she needed something or wanted attention, that's what would come out too. It was very much the child wanting attention right down to the voice and the words she used.

This got me thinking, Murbay... .  maybe BPDs have something the opposite of Asperger's,  in that the read body language and facial expressions  hyperactively  and project their own anxieties onto that person,  triggering fear,  shame,  paranoia and anger.

[Murbay]

Quite true Turkish, there can be some striking similarities externally though I'm fortunate enough not to suffer meltdowns or rages. I have had meltdowns in the past but that has usually when I have been backed into a corner with no means of being able to get out or major sensory overload.

Internally is where there are the opposites and you are quite correct in what you say. We tend not to be able to read body language or facial expressions where pwBPD is hypersensitive to them. I know this is an area where I trigger pwBPD because I know my default facial expression is very neutral so it leaves them second guessing, what I now know is the rages it causes is their own thoughts and feelings surfacing making me a perfect target to project on to.

In terms of emotions, we tend to feel those same feelings of fear, shame, guilt and anger but where a pwBPD projects them on to someone else, we tend to own them more than we should. Including taking on someone elses emotions as our own then internalising, becoming overwhelmed. We can often come across as cold and emotionless, although inside everything is going on. Spock in Star Trek is perhaps the closest example or Sheldon from Big Bang, though Sheldon is more of an extreme and has other co-morbid issues 

[TheRoadtoNowhere]

 My BPD/Bipd gf was never like the women Im reading about here, she was incredibly sweet.  Everyone who met her loved her, she could make friends with anyone and she was never one way in public and another behind closed doors. In addition, her family and friends loved her, I literally only heard 1-2 people ever say anything even remotely bad about her.  She's 35 and I am 47, but our age difference was never an issue, she preferred older guys, (daddy issues!)

She did have several other BPD traits, like being emotionally unstable, always talked about commiting suicide, (she even had it all planned out, place, means, everything), idealization and devaluation, feelings of being unworthy (not being good enough, or woman enough to keep me satisfied), self-destructive behavior like just walking out on a great, high paying job and always talking about wanting to oh, and lets not forget about running back and forth between her Estranged husband and myself (Memphis to Knoxville,Tn, 6 times)... .

I guess not all symptoms are present in all cases, but I would have thought she would have had this one, it seems to be a big issue).

... . And MURBAY, your post brought back so many memories about my baby, that Id never even considered before.  I remember one of the very first things that attracted me to her, was how sweet and innocent she was, as I think back now, It was her child like innocent way about her that I fell in love with.  She was so intense and full of life and fun to be around. I remember how pissed I was at her estranged husband for all the things SHE was telling me about him, it WAS like I was wanting to protect the child in her. Yet she was always running back to him, (probably telling him how BAD I was).

At the beginning of my post I called my baby, BPD/Bipd, because even though she was diagnosed with Bipolar II in Sept. of 2013,  I believe she is closer to being BPD, than Bipolar II, from what Ive read, but who knows,... .

And Im supposed to be trying to move on, SO WHY THE HELL DO I EVEN CARE!

 

[Pearl55]

Waif type ( wolf in sheep skin ) ; normally look shy and have a vague and weak speech pattern and frantically searching for words. Intelligence level is a key factor that differentiate borderlines from each other.

Other types like queen or witch are confident or even over confident. Their speech patterns are still vague and normally jump from one subject to another. Lack of details in their speech are very clear. Facial expressions vary from depressive to flat or even open and cheerful but even when they are cheerful you will notice that is fake ( no feelings ).

I've noticed that they blink more than usual ( not always ) especially when they are stressed. Their LIPS move more than usual when they lie.

Biting the lower lip, nail biting are signs of sever anxiety. I've got anxiety disorder now but I don't do it.

Their body language are normally restless not the waif one.

Moonie once you are in a relationship with a normal woman you can differentiate the abnormalities but if you have normal female friends they will be able to tell you if something is wrong.

When I paid attention to my ex behaviours I completely found out he's abnormal.

In fact if we didn't have PASSIVE AVOIDANT personality we wouldn't stay long with our borderlines.

Anxiety or depressive thought can lead to repetitive patterns of destructive behaviour such as losing key, forgetting to lock and close doors, missed appointments,... .

One other thing I've noticed in borderline women when they are jealous of something their eye pupils sizes change dramatically in seconds. I must ask this from my neurologist lecturer.