BPD Entitlement and does it ever change?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

It's late on Sunday night and I'm just pondering... .

Saw my T on Friday and we were discussing the hopelessness of my ex to get going with her life, engage in reality (apart from being a perpetual student aged 20-30) and basically do anything with her life. 

I know she's doing DBT with a psychiatrist in London and I was wondering whether this may change her views/statements:  "It's a man's responsibility to pay for everything"... .   "I deserve the best because of who I am"... .   "I need a man to be successful and I wouldn't consider an unsuccessful man (my 'mother' would not accept it)... . " 

What happens when she's no longer beautiful?  Or when she realises that she's got nothing of her own at all, she lives like I did when I was 18, and her mother is as reliable as a 5 year old and as pleasant as a dose of the clap due to her ability to financially control her daughter. 

I feel so sorry for her.  But equally, BPD entitlement is a disaster for that person as decent and hard working people just get sick of them... .   It just makes my ex more vulnerable. 

Will it change?  Is DBT going to get her out of a student room and make her want to create a CV and find a job?  Oh... it's just a 1hr session 1:1 a week. 

[DiamondSW]

It's late on Sunday night and I'm just pondering... .

Saw my T on Friday and we were discussing the hopelessness of my ex to get going with her life, engage in reality (apart from being a perpetual student aged 20-30) and basically do anything with her life. 

I know she's doing DBT with a psychiatrist in London and I was wondering whether this may change her views/statements:  "It's a man's responsibility to pay for everything"... .   "I deserve the best because of who I am"... .   "I need a man to be successful and I wouldn't consider an unsuccessful man (my 'mother' would not accept it)... . " 

What happens when she's no longer beautiful?  Or when she realises that she's got nothing of her own at all, she lives like I did when I was 18, and her mother is as reliable as a 5 year old and as pleasant as a dose of the clap due to her ability to financially control her daughter. 

I feel so sorry for her.  But equally, BPD entitlement is a disaster for that person as decent and hard working people just get sick of them... .   It just makes my ex more vulnerable. 

Will it change?  Is DBT going to get her out of a student room and make her want to create a CV and find a job?  Oh... it's just a 1hr session 1:1 a week. 

[happylogist]

I do not think DBT will change that if she does not want it, it has to come in some way.

These kind of entitlements are rooted in heads from teenager if not even earlier years, mainly by mothers or both parents.

DBT may or not change her outlook in some way unless those are really addressed as issues... .

I have a friend who has just a bit of narcissistic traits (nothing pathological or bad), but also say things like that, but did MBA and has a good job. So... well

[Perfidy]

Diamond, if she is putting the work into the therapy she could change. Personality disorders can be very difficult for therapists though. For anyone to feel the benefit of therapy, they must be able to take responsibility for themselves. A fact. Getting a pwBPD to take responsibility for themselves is futile in most cases because of the very nature of their personality.

[DiamondSW]

Thank you Perfidy,

You know what... . one of the last things she said to me was "How can I love you when I don't even love myself?"... .

I'm really hoping she does try to get something from the DBT sessions.  In her heart she knows she can't continue with the life she's led... .   even though her mum wants her to... . tbh her mum 'uses' her daughter as a means to validate her own self worth... . one day the girl is put on a pedestal, the next she's seen as pretty worthless.  In her mothers eyes, her daughter only has 'value' if she's married to a rich man.  That's it. 

I really hope DBT works and instead of messing anyone else around, she puts her entire heart and soul into it... . ironically, she's gone back to a very puritanical way of life... . her room is devoid of luxuries, she's following a no sex before marriage mantra, and god is the main man... . please let it be so that she focusses upon DBT... . and not that she's totally gone nuts!

[Perfidy]

What about yourself diamond? How you holding up?

[DiamondSW]

I'm OK actually.

Just wondering what she's doing/up to... .   not at all because i want her back or could ever go back (ridiculous prospect), but wondering whether my 'gut feeling' that she's sitting in her room, copying out bible quotes and phoning her mum for ££ is going on... . of course it is... . a leopard never changes it's spots (and the work I got her in Sept has run out... . shame). 

I remember telling her " god only manifests himself in the people in your life"... . and "it's either your mum paying your bills or me finding you the work (to pay your bills)"  ... .    so now i'm gone, think i can guess what's going on again.  Urgh. 

Please let DBT work!  She could be brilliant at whatever she sets her heart to.  But she's so ill, she would be overwhelmed by a yoghurt at the moment I fear. 

anyway, i'm getting better thank you.  Lots of walking -did 15miles today... . think i'll buy a new mountain bike tomorrow... .   even have a pretty (divorced) girl asking me for advice about her son... . not the worst way to spend an afternoon.  Hoping for a nice new friend there. 

[Perfidy]

Cool, sounds like fun. Glad your ok.

[Pearl55]

Diamond

Your wife sounds a queen borderline. DBT won't resolve their issues. If your wife is a queen BPD she suffers from NPD as well. Don't forget not all therapiest are honest and well experienced about BPD. My ex is a specialesed psychiatrist in BPD and you will see where I am now after 13 years.

If she really wants to work she will find a job so she doesn't want to work if she hasn't got a job. Please don't be her safety ticket. Most borderlines are extremely intelligent.

[Johnny Alias]

What happens when she's no longer beautiful?  It's pretty simple.  Unless this DBT works a miracle and I sincerely hope it does, then she will continue to mooch off lovers, friends, and family. 

They will resent her for this.  When she's older and her looks run out, the people who are still around, if any, will look at her as an adult leech instead of a kid. 

The fact is when you're pretty you're still youthful and since these people are a case of arrested development they exude child like qualities such as naivete, child like voices, and youthful exuberance. 

Much of that mask goes away when the wrinkles appear and their enablers see them as they really are... .  

The sense of entitlement winds up chasing EVERYONE away.  I've literally seen it in my exes mom.  No joke.  Her family and ex friends HATE her. 

[seeking balance]

DBT is not going to change someone into someone new.

DBT gives tools to handle emotions; those emotions that tend to destroy everything around a pwBPD... . she will have tools to handle a job, this will likely be an outcome of DBT.  That does not mean she may or may not expect someone to pay for her still, however.

The book Buddha and the Borderline is quite good at seeing reality... . the goal is a life worth living... . that may look different to all of us really.

[DiamondSW]

Thanks guys,

Think you're telling me what I know already.  Luckily she's from the middle east so it's kind of expected for a man to take care of her financially and she just has to do the reproducing bit and looking pretty...

funny though... .

1)  She always told me her middle eastern gf's were unanimously in miserable marriages (her mother was! before Arab Lounge dot com... . where she married some plonker the 1st day she set eyes on him)

2)  BPDex doesn't want to go back there for anything!  Much nicer having the best of both worlds -freedom of London, yet projecting middle eastern thinking on us English! 

... . oh well, she at least has a 'nice' rented 15ft x 12 ft hall of residence room... . not bad for 30... .  

Part of me desperately wants the DBT to transform her, 99% of me knows it won't.

In a strange way, her life would have been better if she wasn't pretty -there would be far less expectation from her mother for her to find a rich man.  Now she's a bit 'past it' when she's back in the middle east, a fish out of water there... and a fish out of water here. 

Oh, and she's reverted to 'no sex b4 marriage' so not entirely sure how many English guys will jump for her, bearing in mind it'll be a lonely relationship. 

Urgh, god I'm confused just typing this.  Taken me 4 mths to get out of the FOG... . ! 

The mother was awful!  runied the girl's life... . but I got the abuse and bs... .   Why me?   

Getting close to past caring!  Just feel sick when I'm in central London... .   why can't she/all of them, just bugger off back to the middle east? 

[Pearl55]

I'm a middle eastern woman. Normally middle eastern women are lady of leisures but not all of them. Bpd is a different thing and I've seen many non middle eastern BPD women who are leeches to their husband's wallet.

When I was in my country I never worked and had a very high life style. Since I moved to the uk I always worked and supported my husband and lost over £200k because I trusted my BPD husband. So please don't think all eastern women are the same.

[DiamondSW]

Thank you Pearl for replying.

I just feel that 'man's responsibilities' are all well and good in the Arab world where men have all the advantages at work and discrimination is rife, but in England men and women are equal.  She had the same chances as me, moreso because she had no student loans to start life with... .  

My BPDexgf stayed here for that equality and hated the Arab world for its sexism and lack of opportunity.  But she wasn't willing to work here in England. 

I remember a very clear argument we had... . girl:  "My mother will ask you how much you earn and you have to be respectful and tell the truth"... .

me:  "It's none of her business and i've only known you 3mths, what does it matter?"

girl:  "It's about respect.  You must respect her"

me:  "fine, no problem, I'll tell her I earned £75000 this year"

girl:  "is that the truth?"

me "well, you should know"

girl:  "but I've only known you three months!"

(do you see where this one is going?)

me:  "you do know that my parents will ask you how much you've earned and I hope you'll be respectful and tell them"  "They will also ask if you are a virgin because they are strict Catholics so perhaps we shouldn't tell them abt your ex bf"  (They're not btw)

girl: er... . (silent)

conversation over. 

I think using the issue of money to justify my 'worth' to date her was pretty disrespectful...

A bit like not telling me she had BPD despite weekly trips to a psychiatrist -now that's disrespectful and plain misrepresentative... .

Urgh, yuck, horrid girl.  Sorry Pearl... .   I have no cultural issue, it's just that you can't have the best of both worlds in my opinion and make someone's life a misery if they can't meet those 'needs'... .   In my world I won't inherit 2/3rds of anything just because I have testicles.  Hence my statement to her, if you don't like it, you know where to go. 

wish she would go there... .  

Maybe it was the culture talking, maybe the BPD, whatever it was, I found it pretty hopeless.  We were never a happy partnership of equals, it was mememememememe...  

[2010]

"I need a man to be successful and I wouldn't consider an unsuccessful man (my 'mother' would not accept it

Many cultures are particularly geared toward enmeshment, especially concerning female children- but this doesn’t mean narcissistic entitlement for the female child, it means survival according to a parental precept and valuation.

Young girls with Bpd are made not born. Due to upbringing, they generally look to others to have the answers and then feel immense shame when those dominant people try to control their thoughts and actions, which are suggestive of their previous failure to become an independent human being and make their own decisions. Because this is a repetitious and compulsive disorder, a “punitive parent” lives intrinsically in their psyche and becomes a distorted belief system. That punitive psyche has a set number of rules and regulations, perhaps similar to your own ideas of reference about who you are and what you need to do to be seen as "whole." Bpd is not narcissistic entitlement although it is often mistaken for it.

anyway, i'm getting better thank you. even have a pretty (divorced) girl asking me for advice about her son... . not the worst way to spend an afternoon.  Hoping for a nice new friend there.

So, taking your query: Do you they ever change? Let’s make that: Do I ever change?

You’ve posted that you’re a bit happier now that you’ve got a single mother who needs advice about her son. That’s interesting- let’s explore that. Maybe the Boy’s Father is in the picture, maybe he isn’t, but what matters here is why you feel grateful to have this opportunity to be of service during your recovery from a failed attachment with a person whom you claim has Borderline personality disorder by feeling of service to someone new.

Perhaps, this Mother’s neediness in “asking you for advice” gives you enough value to pull you out of the obsessive thoughts about your ex. Perhaps it’s also similar to what led you to become involved with your ex in the first place. If so, you must follow the need and be honest about what that means for you and why.

When single Mothers look to single Men for child-rearing advice (yet still have the child’s Father in the picture,) this says something about persecutor, victim and rescuer roles. And if the Father is no longer in the picture, and the Mother is seeking out Men for advice, then this really is a loaded scenario for a quick and false bond with a stranger.

Most overused siren calls (from needy people) are habits, not about solving real problems, but about attracting rescuers. The rescuer personality feels better about himself or herself and the victim gets someone to feel responsible for their predicament, but in the end everyone is victimized because no one is self-actualized and self-directed. The rescuer and victim objectify "others." The rescuer also feels better when rescuing because it prevents them from feeling their own pain while they concentrate on the needs (and pain) of others. That's not healthy.

In the aftermath of a relationship with a person with Bpd, it’s best to understand the attraction (Need) for rescuing and what that means when you try to extricate yourself in the failed aftermath of the rescue by becoming involved with yet another rescue. Who needs who to succeed in this scenario? And who needs who to fail? It isn't a healthy way to find new "friends."

Investigate if you are objectifying others to prevent you from feeling the pain of being alone. Is it possible that you are using a new needy relationship to help you out of your feelings of failure concerning the previous one? Using others, even if in self-sacrifice (valuation of yourself) is only a temporary fix and it won't get you the love you desire. If you continue to offer yourself in this way you will always attract people who feel *entitled* to your self sacrifice.

Follow the needs of both parties and be honest about it- it will help you uncover a startling definition of your side in the attraction to a person who appears helpless and one-down. Can you change it?  :)o you want to change it? This is the same question that you are posing in your title concerning your ex. Both people in rescuing/victim roles objectify others, both have needs that are compulsive. Follow the need and see the pattern.