Impact of Counseling/Treatment on Child Custody

[nevaeh]

I would like anyone's opinion on whether a upwBPD might have a better shot at shared (50%) custody if they are in the middle of treatment vs. in the beginning of seeking out treatment for "unknown" mental issues (anger management, depression, anxiety... .  not necessarily BPD).

I am asking because I told my H 4 weeks ago that I wanted a divorce.  He had an emotional meltdown (and continues to have it  :'() and I had told him at one point that I would consider holding off on filing for divorce for a few months to allow him to pursue counseling and see whether anything can be salvaged.  This would only be an option if he removed himself from the home - and it would become essentially a potential "healing separation". 

On Friday he proposed an idea where we would "share" the separation... .  meaning he would live in the 2nd residence for 2 weeks and I would live there for 2 weeks.  He claims it is unfair that I should get to have the kids 100% of the time and I stated that I am absolutely not compromising on this point.  I will not restrict access, but they will live with me full-time during the separation.  I then proceeded to have a hysterical meltdown and told him that he will not take my kids from me, or I from them.  After all of the BS he has put us all through he doesn't deserve to have partial custody of them.  He thinks that the only way he will be able to rebuild a relationship with the kids is if he is allowed to live with them part time.  I happen to disagree with that assertion but he is incapable of understanding the depth of damage he has inflicted upon us.

Then, yesterday, I caught him after he had taken my office key from my coat pocket while I was sleeping, came to my office, keyed in, and proceeded to have access to whatever information I had regarding the divorce.  He claims he didn't actually key in to my office, just the office suite, where he proceeded to sit in the floor bawling for 10-15 minutes.  I was very angry about this (putting it mildly), told him we have security cameras and what if someone saw him, does he realize I could get in big trouble for that, and I don't care how upset he is... .  he crossed a HUGE boundary!  Yesterday's happenings were a bit of a wake up call for me that he is losing it and has major issues to deal with... .  so much more than I guess I thought.

Anyway, the reason for my question is that I am back to realizing that I need to move ahead with the divorce papers.  They are drafted and ready to go, I just need to have the lawyer finalize and submit with the county.  Right now H and I are heavy in discussions about finding him another place to live, but under the impression that we would pursue this as a possible healing separation, whereby we would have no contact for at least 1-2 months while we both went to individual counseling and then at some point in the future we would talk about whether to move ahead with marital counseling.  I have been very focused on just getting him out of the house so I can think straight but he hasn't been willing to move on it.  AFter his stunt yesterday, I think he knows he is on very very thin ice and I have told him repeatedly over the past few days that he has absolutely no control over any of this... .  it's happening and if he doesn't take action then I will file the papers.

Here is my concern... .  given the fact that he has now mentioned shared custody and has scheduled about 20 counseling appointments, I am worried about what might happen if I wait to file divorce papers until a few months down the road and he has had a chance to work on his issues.  If I decide at that point that I am not "willing" to recover the marriage, will he have a better shot at getting shared custody?  This is a real concern for me.  I honestly don't know what I would do if that happened.  I know my kids well enough to know that they will lose it if they have to move back and forth between two households.  Aside from the child support concerns (he would pay about $1300 less per month if we have shared custody), I am so concerned about him getting joint custody. 

Any thoughts?  I know I am concerned about getting him out of the house as my top priority, but I don't want to make any promises that I am not truly willing to contemplate (i.e. if I really don't see a future for us then I don't want to make him think I am willing to try if I really just am telling him this to get him out of the house).  I think that could hurt me in the long run.  I still have the option of moving to my sister's vacant house with the kids as a temporary housing option.  The inconvenience of it is not ideal, but if it is something I really need to consider... .  well... . 

Thanks for any advice you all might have.

[Matt]

Every situation is different, and there are several legal issues that depend on how things work where you live.  But here are just some thoughts... .

* I think you should be open to the likelihood that at some point the kids will be spending some nights with you and some with him.  If you are doing a great job with the kids, and your husband is really struggling, it's possible that he may not end up with any overnights - he might just have the kids some weekend time for example.  But I don't think you should be thinking that if the kids spend some nights with him - assuming he is functioning OK at some point - that would be end of the world.  You could seem unreasonable if you are too set on this point.

* You have suggested that he get counseling, and that's a very good idea.  Now let it be.  Mentioning it again won't help.  It's not very likely that he will get the help that he needs, and stay with it, but nothing you say will make that more likely - you might even make it less likely by mentioning it again.  If he does, that's probably a good thing, even though it may weaken your legal case, but either way, it will be his choice and not yours.

* If you both stay in the house, your stress will go up and up, and there are lots of bad consequences when people live under high stress for a long time.  The case could go on for a year or more.  My suggestion would be, file for divorce and ask for sole use of the house.  Give the best reasons you can for why that will be best for you and especially for the kids.  Make it clear that continuing to live in the same house with him is not OK - too much stress for the kids - give some examples how that isn't working and be fair but clear about what you think is the best solution, and why.  Tell what options you have considered, and include his 2 week/2 week proposal among those options, and tell why you think those options are bad and your preferred plan (you have the house) is best for the kids.  Then be prepared to accept and work with whatever the court decides, even if it's the 2/2 plan or you moving out.  (But I think there's a pretty good chance you won't have to move.)

* Focus on finding the right attorney and on documenting everything that is relevant.  Make sure you hire an attorney who has experience with similar cases - "high conflict" divorces.  She should be able to give you "war stories" - anecdotes about similar cases and what she has learned from them.

* I would suggest the book "Splitting" by William A. Eddy, about the special challenges of divorcing someone with BPD or NPD (narcissistic personality disorder).  There's also a lot of good information on Eddy's web site, www.HighConflictInstitute.com.

[nevaeh]

* I think you should be open to the likelihood that at some point the kids will be spending some nights with you and some with him.  If you are doing a great job with the kids, and your husband is really struggling, it's possible that he may not end up with any overnights - he might just have the kids some weekend time for example.  But I don't think you should be thinking that if the kids spend some nights with him - assuming he is functioning OK at some point - that would be end of the world.  You could seem unreasonable if you are too set on this point.

Thanks, Matt.

H and I had a discussion about the above topic last night.  I tried to get him to understand that I am not trying to keep the kids from him, but he needs to understand how I have not only been their mother, but I have also played the role of protector (from him) for them.  I explained that the kids (their actions) have ALWAYS been triggers for him, particularly when he starts getting stressed or anxious.  When I think of the times he has raged, those situations were usually because of something one of the kids did.  So... . for him to expect me to just "hand" the kids over to him for two weeks out of the month before he has really delved into treatment/counseling is a huge stretch and stress for me.  I told him that the kids also need to learn to trust him by his actions and his words.  I didn't tell him this, but if he is making great strides then sure, I will not prevent the kids from spending weekends with him and evenings, etc.  The one thing I don't want to compromise on is that I don't want the kids to have to switch back and forth during the week or alternating weeks. 

He and I have talked the subject of whether we can stay in the same house to death.  I have told him we can't... . it absolutely will not work.  He has asked if he can stay in the guest room.  I said what about the times when we are awake?  That is the problem now... . I can't breathe with him there, he is suffocating me with his intense emotions.  Where he sleeps is the least of my concerns.

I have the Splitting book.  I didn't realize there was a website so I will check that out.

Every day I go back and forth as to whether we could possibly work things out.  One day I'm convinced we can't and the next day I wonder if it's possible.  I do know, and have held my ground on this fact... . that I need a break from him (and him from me) to work through a lot of things and then maybe it will become more obvious as to whether there is a chance for us.

As far as the counseling goes, he has seen a female counselor twice and he likes her so far.  The problem is that she is gone the last two weeks of February, booked the first two weeks of March, and out again the last two weeks of March, with no one to take over her case load while she is gone.  He has about 15 sessions scheduled with her starting in April.  My H is in somewhat of crisis mode and not dealing well with his emotions at all.  As always, he is incapable of self-regulating his emotions - right now he just keeps spiraling downward with all of this.  I suggested that while he is waiting for the one counselor to come back that he reach out and see if there is any way he can get time with someone just to help him deal with his out-of-control emotions.  He did talk to someone on the phone yesterday for quite a while so I know he is trying.  I am not going to push on the counseling because, as I have told him repeatedly, this has to be about him wanting to get better for HIM... . not just getting better for me and the kids.  Obviously him getting better would help that situation but he really needs to do this for himself. 

I do have an attorney and have a call in to her to ask her about any legal ramifications from him taking my office key and going there without my permission, as well as possible ramifications if we were to purchase a condo or townhome for him to live in until we get this figured out.

Other than that, I'm just taking it day-by-day. 

[ForeverDad]

I walked out of my divorce with Shared Parenting and equal parenting time.  However, that was a settlement.  She had history of temporary custody for two years (positive for her) but I had a custody evaluator who described her poorly (positive for me).  On Trial Morning I found out my ex finally was willing to settle.  My lawyer said I had a good case but he also said mothers got a lot of default preference and so going back inside for a trial was a calculated risk.  Even the CE was somewhat for a settlement though I believe he tried to stay neutral.  After all, most cases do end in settlements since (1) court is slow, (2) court is iffy and (3) all the professionals love settlements since they are sure things and can't be appealed.

My difficulty was that my ex had a history of majority parenting, both before and during the divorce.  Yes, she flubbed up several times but she still had that history on her side.

This question would be more meaningful once you have orders... .  If your stbEx currently has less than equal time now, hasn't been an involved parent in the past and has demonstrated issues, it would be hard to imagine a court deciding to grant him equal time.  Not saying it can't happen, but I feel it's unlikely.  Therefore, don't feel pressured to accept 50/50 just because he is pressuring you for it.

I often pointed to my county's published guideline parenting schedule, think it was always used by my county.  The schedules (children under 3 and children 3 and above) both had a primary and a non-primary parent listed.  My lawyer recently set me straight, he said that schedule is not required, it was an example for reasonably cooperative parents.

On Friday he proposed an idea where we would "share" the separation... .  meaning he would live in the 2nd residence for 2 weeks and I would live there for 2 weeks.  He claims it is unfair that I should get to have the kids 100% of the time and I stated that I am absolutely not compromising on this point.  I will not restrict access, but they will live with me full-time during the separation.

I think this could be termed helicopter parenting. Post-separation and post-marriage, do you want to live in a place where he lives?  An alternative is you both having separate apartments and swapping places in the children's residence.   Unless one or both of you is independently wealthy enough to afford three homes - and stay cooperative - neither option would work for long, if ever.  So this is an automatic No.

Once stbEx is out, he is O.U.T.  You have possession and get it confirmed by the court when you file.  However, whether the children would stay 100% of the time with you is another matter.  Since you can't agree, the court will ultimately decide.  Don't be timid to make your reasonable stand and to list his issues and past history, what counts is his history, much less whether he has just started sessions or whatever.  (As in, promises mean little, actions over time are what count.)  Additionally, can his other residence accommodate all the children, allowing the boys to have a bedroom separate from the girls?

And don't feel bad to motion the court that he is not to enter your workplace at any time unescorted or uninvited.

[nevaeh]

This question would be more meaningful once you have orders... .  If your stbEx currently has less than equal time now, hasn't been an involved parent in the past and has demonstrated issues, it would be hard to imagine a court deciding to grant him equal time.  Not saying it can't happen, but I feel it's unlikely.  Therefore, don't feel pressured to accept 50/50 just because he is pressuring you for it.

On Friday he proposed an idea where we would "share" the separation... .  meaning he would live in the 2nd residence for 2 weeks and I would live there for 2 weeks.  He claims it is unfair that I should get to have the kids 100% of the time and I stated that I am absolutely not compromising on this point.  I will not restrict access, but they will live with me full-time during the separation.

I think this could be termed helicopter parenting. Post-separation and post-marriage, do you want to live in a place where he lives?  An alternative is you both having separate apartments and swapping places in the children's residence.   Unless one or both of you is independently wealthy enough to afford three homes - and stay cooperative - neither option would work for long, if ever.  So this is an automatic No.

Once stbEx is out, he is O.U.T.  You have possession and get it confirmed by the court when you file.  However, whether the children would stay 100% of the time with you is another matter.  Since you can't agree, the court will ultimately decide.  Don't be timid to make your reasonable stand and to list his issues and past history, what counts is his history, much less whether he has just started sessions or whatever.  (As in, promises mean little, actions over time are what count.)  Additionally, can his other residence accommodate all the children, allowing the boys to have a bedroom separate from the girls?

And don't feel bad to motion the court that he is not to enter your workplace at any time unescorted or uninvited.

He is not letting this go and it is so frustrating.  I thought I made it uber-clear that I was not compromising on this point, that I would not share residences and that the kids would live with me (meaning they would sleep at our marital home where I and the kids will stay) and that I would not restrict access to the kids for evenings and weekend overnights.  He thinks this is all about me and what I want but I have explained until I'm practically blue in the face that the kids would be extremely upset if he was their primary parent for a specified amount of time during the month.  While he is "accepting" of the fact that he has been a pain in the A$$ for their entire lives he doesn't seem to be truly grasping the concept that the kids and I need to be apart from his control in order to get healthy.  He says he is not trying to control us so it is "unfair" that I say he is trying to control me (and the kids).  I don't know how to get him to understand and accept what I am telling him and it seems if he can't grasp that concept that there may be little hope that he can truly work through his issues.

Anyway, last night I told him (again) that I would not compromise on the living arrangements for the kids.  He is clearly frustrated with me but I am not budging on this.  After going through the explanation he "seems" to indicate that he understands and that he is going to "give up" on asking for that, but I can guarantee that this is not the end of this discussion.

To answer your question... .  NO I do not want to live in a place where he lives.  However, the predicament I am in right now is that we are trying to work on a "healing separation", which means that we are both agreeing to work on our own issues and then the marriage.  The problem is that I don't think I will know if I actually want to work on the marriage until I have had some time apart from him to think clearly.  He is going into this with the assumption that for all intents and purposes we are still married and we will be making this big effort to build a better relationship so that when we move back together we will suddenly have a happy marriage and all will be good.  This concept of a healing separation was brought up by me... .  in the context of saying that I would hold off on filing for divorce for a few months if we could separate and have time to work on our individual issues before making the final decision to divorce.  He is hearing what he wants to hear... .  that I am simply asking for a break and we will dive into fixing the marriage in 6 weeks or so.  I try to be clear on what my intent is, but he is stuck on the fact that this will all work out and we will ride off happily into the sunset at the end.

When discussing the custody/parenting issue last night I asked him to think about, worst case, that we are getting a divorce.  So, regarding the custody issues, is he saying that he would expect the kids to change residences every 2-3 weeks?  He says of course not, he wouldn't do that to them.  So, I said that is how I am viewing this.  I think what this is illustrating to me most of all is that we are viewing this separation in two completely different ways and it is highly problematic.

I have a call in to my attorney to ask the following questions:

• We have been attempting to "discuss" the terms of the healing separation.  I need to find out from her if there is anything I should be careful of agreeing to that might impact future custody or financial issues.



• H spent all day last Friday looking at condos for purchase.  I am going to look at a few with him on Thursday night.  Should I have any concerns about purchasing a condo at this point?  It would be a joint asset, so I don't think there are issues.  I have a feeling that if H were to see a lawyer they would tell him not to move from the home, but despite the fact that I told him several times the first week after I told him I wanted a divorce that he should see an attorney, he has not done so (that I'm aware of).  I know that I can't force him to leave the house and he can stay if he so chooses. I just need to make sure the lawyer doesn't have any concerns that I need to be aware of.



• What access does H have to the house once he has moved out.  If we have "agreed" to a healing separation does that change his acceptable level of access.



• My counselor has asked if I have any legal way to enforce a no-contact situation if we ever get to that.  I think H is going to struggle with going no-contact.  I am up in the air about whether I try to enforce NC or if I just let it go and see how badly he deals with the NC situation.  I think this is more related to access to the house but I suppose it could spill into other areas as well.



• Any documentation or evidence needed to show that H keyed into my office without my permission and is this something that would be needed for a potential court situation.

I should also make it clear that I don't want to keep the kids from H and I completely understand and hope that he will want to spend time with the kids.  I just am very passionate about the fact that they need to have a stable home and that living with me as their primary residence is important for that sense of normalcy for them.  I told my counselor last week that I feel like I'm being unfair, unreasonable, and selfish but she was quick to tell me that I was not being those things and that I am looking out for the best interests of my kids. 

Thanks for all the good advice... . 

[Matt]

You should quit talking with him about the separation, divorce and custody issues.  Tell him you will not discuss these issues anymore, that you need to work on your own issues for some period of time - maybe two months, or four months, or six months - and you encourage him to do the same.  And at the end of that time maybe you will be ready to talk again.

And... . decide about moving the legal process forward now, or later, or maybe putting it on hold.

You are trying to fix the marriage - a "healing separation" - and also considering how to end it - custody issues.  You need to choose one or the other - focus on fixing it or focus on ending it.

I think your attorney will tell you not to agree to any major purchase, like a condo, at this time.  Condos can be rented or leased.  A major purchase will complicate things - fixing the marriage or ending it will be more difficult.

When you are living separately, neither of you should consider the other home to be open.  That is, if he moves out, you become the resident of the family home, and he should not come there without your permission, and you shouldn't go into his home (like a rented condo maybe) without his permission.  He should be able to take his personal stuff with him, or come and get it by arrangement with you.  You should probably change the locks.

I would suggest not letting the "NC" issue become a black-and-white thing - "Should I insist on NC or not?"  Instead, I would suggest you decide for yourself how you will communicate with him - maybe think of it as a list of rules you adopt by your own choice - and then act accordingly.

As an example, here is how I communicate with my ex:

* Almost never face-to-face unless there is a really good reason.

* But if we run into each other at a school event I don't hide from her - I say hi and if she asks me a question I answer it pleasantly.

* Rarely phone unless it's urgent.

* Usually e-mails.  3 sentences or less.  Just facts and questions - no emotions - no philosophy - no arguments - keep it simple.

* If she says anything inappropriate I don't respond to it - accusations, threats, complaints - just ignore it and only respond to the appropriate stuff.

We separated in 2006 and the divorce was final in 2008, so your situation is very different.  But whatever you decide is the best way to communicate with him, get it clear in your mind, and then do it - don't debate it with him or try to convince him it's right - just decide what you believe is best and do it.

[ForeverDad]

If he's anything like my ex, you will be able to reason with him only on the topics you both generally agree on.  Anything else gets shut out.  Yeah, not much, right?

Their perceptions, moods and feelings are their world, facts and logic get drowned out by the emotional baggage of the relationship.

There is a risk that the more you bring up topics he resists or believes differently, the more likely an argument could ensue.  Something to keep in mind.

The problem is that I don't think I will know if I actually want to work on the marriage until I have had some time apart from him to think clearly.  He is going into this with the assumption that for all intents and purposes we are still married and we will be making this big effort to build a better relationship so that when we move back together we will suddenly have a happy marriage and all will be good.

One of our oldtimers, JoannaK, commented on this sometimes.  She and others wrote that it's not wise to promise a reunion.  (You didn't but of course your spouse is ignoring that message.)  Either one of you might later, after some level of recovery or not, decide that the other person is not the one you want to continue a relationship with.  You might have changed, your spouse might have changed, or both.

[Matt]

There are some big advantages to a "therapeutic separation".

You don't need to decide now what you want at the end of that period.  You can decide that later.  And you don't need to tell the other party what will happen at the end of the period, even if you think you know.

You can (maybe) get into a better living situation - not in the same home - without paying lawyers or all the drama of a decision to end the marriage.

You can let your head clear and discover a lot about yourself without the other party's drama.  And you can focus on your relationship with the child.  I found it easy to establish a "new normal" - a quiet home with the kids - mostly happy - no drama and much less stress.

The other party will also discover what it's like to live alone, and he might be OK with that, which would make divorce easier at some point.  Or he might discover that he values the marriage more than he thought, and decide to do what he needs to do, to make it work.

Much less risk of rising conflict or even violence.

To make it work, you probably have to make a temporary agreement about who the kids will be with.  He might move out, and then ask for time with the kids, and in that case you will be in a strong position to say what you think is OK.  But if he won't move out til this temporary arrangement is clear, you might need to agree to something you don't think is ideal.

It will be in everybody's interest to put into writing who the kids will be with when.  You might even want to submit that to the court, and ask the court to issue it as a court order, if you think there will be conflict about it later.

Above all, it will be best for the kids if you can both say, together, "Here is how this will work."  Make sure the details are very clear - exactly what day and time each exchange will be made, and where - will you meet at McDonalds?  Or will he come to your home to pick them up?  Or will you drop them off at his place?  Anything left vague will cause problems later.