Too much political correctness when dealing with PDs...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi all. I read a comment on an article regarding High Conflict People (HCP). Didnt even know that term existed. Seems to me its just another way to say "unbearable abnoxious people".

Despite PDs being considered a mental sickness or a disorder or a relationship disorder, Im trying to focus on me.

I have 2 or 3 uPDs relatives (BPD/ NPD/ HPD) and seeing the destruction in the family (going on for decades and never stopping, no matter how much NC you try the effects are still there) Im wondering if Im just being "too soft" on them.

Ill post the link here: www.mediate.com/articles/eddyB6.cfm

And the comments that say exactly what I think:

"Wow. Talk about *How to be a Co-Dependent.* This article basically says that in dealing with HCPs, otherwise healthy adult people should somehow overcome their own (as the article says) *automatic* human responses to these people and cater to their unrealistic expectations of you being sweet and kind and tolerant to enable them to rage, control, defend you to death and continue their - yes - BAD - behavior. Maybe that works if you are a paid mediator in a professional setting where you must deal with the scum of the earth and Thank God, show them some compassion and HOPEFULLY steer them toward some kind of psychological help, but this advice is terrible for the spouse of such a person. When does the non-HCP person get to be his or herself in that relationship? Honestly, the advice makes no sense at all in the real live world. Perhaps it will illicit positive results for a time to calm the HCP down, but once calm, then what? You still can't speak rationally to a HCP without just opening a tirade of excuses, white lies and defensive anger. To what end? Just say, good enough, and have a one-sided relationship where the healthy party is soon to become unhealthier, crazier and a nervous wreck even worse of a mess than the HCP by the time several years pass in close quarters."

"I still don't understand why we are supposed to be nice or understanding to people who have no problem hurting us. Whether it is a mental disease or not, these "hcp"s do think they are superior and will stop at nothing to dominate the majority of the population... . people lose jobs and relationships and money to these types and I refuse to be nice to these people"

Im about to meet 2 uBPDs/ NPDs. One is a relative and the other is in a campaign against me for 3 years now (she´s president of the building, sends me fines every month for no reason, I dont even live there). So Im trying to think straight and see my options, cause my regular response was trying to come to an agreement, but things only got worse.

Its very nice to find ways to cope (or simply run to the hills), but I still sometimes think why I have to waste so much energy on them, why we always have to be so politically correct when somebody is just grabbing you by your throat... .

Cause wanting it or not, when we learn on how to deal with them we still are focusing on them. And honestly, Im tired of choosing my words to defuse conflict. Sometimes I just want to answer back and let them blown in front of the audience, so they see their true colours. Something like "giving them rope until they hang up themselves".

Does anybody feel the same way? Thanks for reading! (Maybe I have PTSD after dealing with them for so long and in the past year my mom is severely depressed so its no piece of cake for me).

[Louise7777]

Hi all. I read a comment on an article regarding High Conflict People (HCP). Didnt even know that term existed. Seems to me its just another way to say "unbearable abnoxious people".

Despite PDs being considered a mental sickness or a disorder or a relationship disorder, Im trying to focus on me.

I have 2 or 3 uPDs relatives (BPD/ NPD/ HPD) and seeing the destruction in the family (going on for decades and never stopping, no matter how much NC you try the effects are still there) Im wondering if Im just being "too soft" on them.

Ill post the link here: www.mediate.com/articles/eddyB6.cfm

And the comments that say exactly what I think:

"Wow. Talk about *How to be a Co-Dependent.* This article basically says that in dealing with HCPs, otherwise healthy adult people should somehow overcome their own (as the article says) *automatic* human responses to these people and cater to their unrealistic expectations of you being sweet and kind and tolerant to enable them to rage, control, defend you to death and continue their - yes - BAD - behavior. Maybe that works if you are a paid mediator in a professional setting where you must deal with the scum of the earth and Thank God, show them some compassion and HOPEFULLY steer them toward some kind of psychological help, but this advice is terrible for the spouse of such a person. When does the non-HCP person get to be his or herself in that relationship? Honestly, the advice makes no sense at all in the real live world. Perhaps it will illicit positive results for a time to calm the HCP down, but once calm, then what? You still can't speak rationally to a HCP without just opening a tirade of excuses, white lies and defensive anger. To what end? Just say, good enough, and have a one-sided relationship where the healthy party is soon to become unhealthier, crazier and a nervous wreck even worse of a mess than the HCP by the time several years pass in close quarters."

"I still don't understand why we are supposed to be nice or understanding to people who have no problem hurting us. Whether it is a mental disease or not, these "hcp"s do think they are superior and will stop at nothing to dominate the majority of the population... . people lose jobs and relationships and money to these types and I refuse to be nice to these people"

Im about to meet 2 uBPDs/ NPDs. One is a relative and the other is in a campaign against me for 3 years now (she´s president of the building, sends me fines every month for no reason, I dont even live there). So Im trying to think straight and see my options, cause my regular response was trying to come to an agreement, but things only got worse.

Its very nice to find ways to cope (or simply run to the hills), but I still sometimes think why I have to waste so much energy on them, why we always have to be so politically correct when somebody is just grabbing you by your throat... .

Cause wanting it or not, when we learn on how to deal with them we still are focusing on them. And honestly, Im tired of choosing my words to defuse conflict. Sometimes I just want to answer back and let them blown in front of the audience, so they see their true colours. Something like "giving them rope until they hang up themselves".

Does anybody feel the same way? Thanks for reading! (Maybe I have PTSD after dealing with them for so long and in the past year my mom is severely depressed so its no piece of cake for me).

[myself]

I remember reading somewhere that personality disorders were originally called character disorders. The basic difference between personality and character seems to be that personality is more on the surface, shifting with whichever winds, while character would be the deeper parts of who we are. Most people here would probably say this went well beneath the surface, the abusive affects of being in these relationships, so I agree, it can be letting those who did the actions off the hook by keeping it on the surface, or not acknowledging it.

It's said, "There's a time and place for everything". Yet sometimes there's not. As in, why bother?

The whole world's full of mirrors. We do have some choice in what we see and what we show.

Keeping in mind that intentions don't always equal (expected) results.

The best thing to do is to be ourselves.

Then it can be called what it it is.

[Louise7777]

"The best thing to do is to be ourselves."

Thank you, Myself.

I guess I have been trying to "erase" my automatic responses to PDs, which can be good, but also exhausting. After all, if you have to think before doing every little thing or saying every sentence you´ll end up with PTSD.

I guess Im tired of hearing since childhood "dont fight, dont answer back" when dealing with an older PDed relative. This constant walking on egg shells is somehow still there since I have to deal with them in a special way to avoid tantrums, rages or whatever... .

[woodsposse]

 

Here is my quick take.

I hate no-win situations.  I have always, for the most part, been the type of person where if I am going to be damned if I do and damned if I don't... . you best bet I will do.  I mean, if the end result is going to be the same, then I'd rather be me.  If they need to fight... . let them - but I'm not gonna back down.

But after coming here to this site (which I officially call my support group now) - and have been able to quiet the urges in my head to scream at the moon because I felt I was going crazy, I learned a few things.  I've learned where it came from in my life to "put up" with people like this... . and surprise surprise... . it was my mother and my FOO.

So, I reached deep inside of me - confronted my mother... . and fixed that relationship the only way I could so I walk again.

(sorry, forgot to add the story which will make sense.  I fractured my leg when I was a kid and no one knew about it until it healed improperly and I became very clumsy.  They eventually figured out the fracture so the only way to have it heal properly was to rebreak and reset the leg.  My mother didn't want that to happen... . so I just compensated for it my entire life.)

The way my growing up years were - now that I'm an adult I can say were horrible.  A house of child abuse at every turn and my mother at the end of ever wicked insult and swipe with a belt, or extension cord or shoe or anything she could get her hands on.

To fix this in me... . I had to rebreak the leg... . reset it... . and let it heal.

Know I realize that in a no-win situation... . damned if you do, damned if you don't - there is and always has been a third option.

The only way to win the game is not to play.

I dismissed my mother.  She was the source of my inner child rage and anger - and every relationship was an attempt to set it right.  I would stay in the high conflict chaos because that is what I was raised in - and in my adult rational mind there was a way to fix anything.  And... . I was half right.

I had to go back to the source.  Fix that.  Intergrate the past trauma and heal it... . now, moving forward - I can't allow myself to get pulled into a no-win with a person disordered.  That's just crazy.

Now that I know and see peace... . why would I want anything else.

I walk much better these days.

[Louise7777]

Hi woods posse and thank you for answering. Actually I had read on some other thread about your leg injury and Im sorry it was untreated back then. Yep, I agree we continue to behave the same way in life as we learnt as kids.

Amen to the "the only way to win is not playing their game". Thats very true. For me the only way is to walk away or have minimum contact. Unfortunately, regarding this other person in campaign against me for 3 years, I have to meet her once a month. I even started a new thread about her asking for advice.

Like you, in my mind I was being respectful towards her and trying to explain my point (trying to fix the situation). But was we know, they dont want resolution, they want the fight to go on. So all I could do was to threaten her with suing her. Seems I set a boundary and it worked. Saturday Ill have to meet her, lets see what happens, Im sure she has some trick under her sleeve.

The third option in my case would be not engaging and letting her hang herself in her own rope (I believe). Lets see how it goes.

[losingconfidence]

Exactly! I've been frustrated about this same concept for a while now. A few weeks ago, my thirteen-year-old relative got lambasted on Facebook for saying that she would be uncomfortable dating someone with BPD. It turned out that some of my friends who added her had BPD. They started essentially chewing her out for "discriminating" against people based on their illness. Thirteen-year-old just blocked the lot of them, and then they started chewing her out all over other branches of Facebook. Yeah, she's thirteen. The way that it has been characterized as an illness has unfortunately led to a lot of them being able to say "oh no it's not my fault, I'm just ill." To top that off, many are survivors of abuse in childhood and then can say things like "oh well it's because I was abused so if you don't like me being borderline you're saying my abuse is my fault."

A good friend of mine who is diagnosed with manic-depressive disorder once made a really strong point about people with BPD. It was something like. ":)epression and manic-depressive disorder are mood disorders. That means there's something wrong with our moods that needs to be regulated. Borderline is a personality disorder. That means there's something wrong with the person's actual personality, and if the personality is the problem then how can you really have a relationship with them? If it's just the mood you can say 'I know there's a great personality underneath all that' and be patient while they work on the issues, but when their fundamental personality is disordered it gets tough."

You are right that as a spouse or a significant other, you are not a crisis counselor. Just like they have needs in the relationship, you have them too. I spent nine months doing the whole stay calm, never raise my voice, placate, try to understand her perspective, try to de-escalate, etc thing with my ex and IT NEVER WORKED. Anything other than tacit agreement with everything she said was wrong except if I agreed with her that was wrong too because I was just agreeing to make her stop yelling or whatever.

I almost think of BPD as a behavior issue. DBT (the leading therapy for it) is all about correcting the behavior and encouraging them to slow down and think before they speak or act. There are a lot of issues that are part illness and part behavior that end up needing treatment. Think of alcoholism or sex addiction. In those cases, the spouse isn't expected to just put up with it or find ways not to inflame the person. No! He or she is allowed to set ultimatums ie: "you have a problem. If you don't go to AA or rehab I will need to leave."

In rehab, if Dr. Drew is any indication, taking personal responsibility is huge. The non won't get a slap on the wrist for being frustrated about the addiction. Instead, if family therapy happens, the counselor will want to make sure the non isn't supplying the addict with drugs or looking the other way when s/he has affairs/picks up the porn when s/he previously agreed not to, etc. With the addicts, therapists are supposed to have sympathy and compassion - not blame the person for the root causes like childhood abuse but make it clear to the addict that the present behaviors they're using to cope are not acceptable. Ultimately, they are not the center of the universe and as adults they need to find ways to express their needs that aren't this tantrum-throwing b.s.

I am capable of being patient with people's issues. If my ex had said "I need to talk," every now and then, fine! But it was just this constant screaming into the night where she would have no idea why she was screaming and then I'd find out she was off her medication that got unbearable to me.

Alcoholics tend to rage at their families and engage in excessive and risky behaviors. People with BPD often do the same thing, and it's abusive. The same cycle of "hurt them, then do 'nice' stuff to make it up to them, then hurt them again" takes place. My personal opinion as an armchair psychology student with a minor off my BA is that there needs to be a sort of rehab for people with BPD.

tl:dr; No, I don't think it's our job to enable their behavior.

[Louise7777]

LosingConfidence, thanks for your words.

Just to make sure, I didnt write any of the excerpts above, but I agree 100% with them (I dont have a PD spouse, but I have uPD relatives and PDed people around me).

Im sorry for your 13yo relative. They can really gang up on people and go over and over until nothing is left behind... . Ill have to meet a uBPD tomorrow and Im sure you will try to poke everyone against me. I started a thread about it asking for advice, not sure its allowed to copy it here.

"Ultimately, they are not the center of the universe and as adults they need to find ways to express their needs that aren't this tantrum-throwing b.s." Oh, thats exactly how I feel! Its a childish behaviour and people apparently dont realize it. Or they prefer "not to rock the boat", as if that was possible with a BPD... . I can tell you that I saw a few times one of my uBPD/ NPD rage when people agreed to her! They just want to fight and if they cant make you disagree, they rage when you agree... . Its like there´s this inner steam and have to let it go somehow.

Im having a hard time trying to find compassion. Im under a 3 year campaign from this uBPD lady and at first, like any normal person, I tried to reason with her. Only escalated her nasty behaviour. So recently I threatened to sue her and she apparently stopped. Lets see tomorrow, at this meeting. Im sure she has something under her sleeve to make me blow.

Im sorry about you trying to fix things for 9 months. How are you nowadays? Again, I have the feeling that most of the times they just want to fight to feel better, so trying to appease has no effect. I had an uHPD friend and she still posts on facebook things like "I had a great fight at the subway today, I feel relieved!". And she brags about it as its something to be praised... .

[losingconfidence]

Thanks, Louise. I think Lilly (13 yo) will be okay. I blocked them after she did, and everyone who wasn't borderline in this situation (which admittedly wasn't many) was supportive of her. She basically thinks that response just confirms everything she said, which is true.

I'll check out your thread. The weird thing though was that all of the people with BPD who Lilly was talking to *were* diagnosed, but they consistently said the same things. "My BPD has hurt me a lot more than anyone else!" They all think their "illness" makes them victims and because all of these people were also abuse survivors it seemed like therapy might've been confusing things a bit. I mean, with survivor work you have to learn/accept that it's not your fault but with BPD you have to take responsibility and teaching both those things at once can probably be a nightmare for a therapist. I wouldn't want to take it on myself.

Haha "not to rock the boat." That's funny. It reminds me of these three plastic boats I played with in the bathtub. I tried to make them race when I got them, and two of them went forward and one had freaking holes in it, so it always sank every time no matter what I tried. I think it was made to teach toddlers about how water works and what floats versus sinks but at first as a kid you don't get it and wonder why your boat keeps sinking. People with BPD are that yellow boat full of holes in terms of rockability. It's not even possible not to. You just keep watching it sink, fishing it out of the water, rinse, wash, repeat (literally).

How am I nowadays? That's a tough one. My breakup was two years ago, and I'm a lot better than I was when I was left. When she left I had bruises on my body, my bed had pee in it (I'm not even kidding), my bathroom floor had urine all over it, the sink was moldy, I was about to lose my summer job with nothing else lined up, I was starving because she was a real appetite suppressant plus she refused to eat and would insist that an unreasonably small amount of food per day was enough then blame me for starving her, I had virtually no friends, I got Bell's Palsy from the stress of it all so I couldn't close my right eye or move the right side of my face at all (which really helps you nail interviews, let me tell you -__-), and my best friend worked this insurance job and was putting in like 60 hour weeks so I had no one to talk to. Plus, she trashed me to all our mutual friends so I had to completely start over.

It was really hard. I didn't know how I was going to survive for a long while. I had to move to a smaller place and give up this dream of living in a cute house with her. I had to buy a new mattress (duh), smash a sculpture I made that was supposed to symbolize our relationship, end a lot of friendships, work at eating and have people hold me accountable, and then somehow find a way to act normal enough around people to make friends. The worst part for me was that I felt like my entire future was gone. The woman I thought I would marry one day left me, and it seemed like she took everything with her.

I found a real job in November of 2012 and went back to school. I think those two moves were what helped me the most. The job brought me in contact with a ton of awesome people and I don't miss her anymore. The one thing that remains hard sometimes is that I now see the red flags in other people (like my mother) and have to decide how to act on them.

It sounds like you have a ton of people with PDs in your life, Louise. Is there any way you can limit that a little? I'm not sure if there is or not, but I personally can't stand having that all over my Facebook.

[Louise7777]

Wow, LosingConfidence, you have been through a lot! I think the symbolic gesture of breaking that statue was powerful, Im very attached to objects, I dont think I could do it.

Im sorry for your Palsy. Its unbeliavable the ammount of stress we endure with PDs, it has to "burst" at some point in the strangest ways. Is it over by now?

Something caught my eye here: your bathroom floor had lots of urine. Im guessing your wife did this on purpose? I have to tell you this: the last time my uBPD aunt visited us, she urinated all over the place. I was appaled. My mom confronted her later in a nicer way ("are u having some urinary problems? cause my bathroom was left like this... . ". She went into a rage, denied, blamed me (!) and never visited us again. I really dont know what it means, but it surely was the weirdest thing she ever did... . It was like a dog had been there... . And it was on purpose, cause you dont cause so much mess without at least cleaning it before you leave... . Maybe she wanted to humiliate us? WHYYY WHYYYY do they do such things?

I think for your BPDs its very confortable to have the excuse of child abuse in their past. For them its a free pass to do whatever they want, since they never take responsability.

Yep, I have lots of PDs around. Some are relatives and others I chose as friends. The relatives I rarely have contact with, Im very low contact with them. Some friends I had to let go, impossible to have a normal give and take relationship (maybe histrionic or narcisistic traits). So I did a lot of "cleaning" and the ones I met are just cause I really cant avoid. Im learning to make better choices.

[losingconfidence]

She was my girlfriend, not my wife, but there is actually no possible way she did this by accident. I often found it several feet or more away from the toilet so it wasn't just an accident. I'm sorry your aunt did that, that is just so disgusting. Having some germophobia I absolutely cannot handle unsanitary people. My ex refused to wash her hands, saying they'd dry out, and her hands were always gummy and icky but then she'd blame my PTSD for the fact that I didn't want her to touch me.

The palsy is mostly better.

It bugged me a LOT that she used her abuse as a crutch because I was abused too. It ended up becoming that hers had to be worse than mine or else I was "invalidating" her by being so functional (ie: having a college degree let alone a high school one).

Glad you're learning to make better choices. It sounds like you've had a lot of unchosen relationships with them in your life.

[Louise7777]

Oh boy, Im somehow germophobic too! 

Your exgf behaviour was appaling regarding hygiene. Im assuming the bathroom thing was on purpose since she kew it would annoy you in a high degree. My aunt´s behaviour was appaling too, I still dont get the reasons completely. Must be to humiliate us, but I believe there´s something else there.

Im glad your palsy is better. I bet its because your main source of stress is gone by now.

You are right on the abuse: they always have a justification or they simply deny it. Im familiar with the "im sicker than you", you never receive any validation from them at all. Their problems are always bigger, which makes them look like a perpetual victim, hence, they are entitled better treatment than others. How nice!

Yep, I had lots of PDed unchosen and wasnt even aware, of course. Took me years to realize what I thought was normal is actually pretty twisted. With time and patience (and tools) Im making better choices. Im about to leave to meet that uBPD lady, lets see how it goes... .

[livednlearned]

Hi Louise7777,

It has to be hard to have so many people with PDs in your life, that must be truly exhausting.

Its very nice to find ways to cope (or simply run to the hills), but I still sometimes think why I have to waste so much energy on them, why we always have to be so politically correct when somebody is just grabbing you by your throat... .

I'm trying to communicate with someone in my life who has a PD, and it does take a lot of work to communicate with him. He causes a lot of conflict (and costs me a lot of money) so I'm very motivated to try and find a way to deal with him. He's my son's father, we're divorced, so someone who will be in my life for a while while we co-parent.

I didn't really understand this commenter:

"Wow. Talk about *How to be a Co-Dependent.* This article basically says that in dealing with HCPs, otherwise healthy adult people should somehow overcome their own (as the article says) *automatic* human responses to these people and cater to their unrealistic expectations of you being sweet and kind and tolerant to enable them to rage, control, defend you to death and continue their - yes - BAD - behavior... . "

To me, codependence is being enmeshed or enabled, which implies someone does not have any boundaries or values. I didn't see Eddy saying we're supposed to be sweet, kind, or tolerant, or codependent, or have no boundaries or values so much as saying, "If you throw gas on flames... . the conflict cycle will continue."

I've been codependent in a relationship with someone who is N/BPD, and used different communication techniques like the ones Bill Eddy suggests, and they felt like assertive techniques that weren't nice so much as they were neutral. I'm out of the relationship now, although we co-parent a child and that means I'll be at this rodeo for a while.   

The biggest thing is doing all three of these that Eddy mentions: "show empathy and concern for the person, AND explain the rules or reasons the specific behavior needs to be stopped (try not to make it personal) AND what the consequences are if it continues."

And then being consistent, and definitely following through on the consequences.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that these relationships are exhausting and there are times I just want to unload! But I also can see some of the tools I'm using work -- not just with N/BPDx but with other people, including just regular old conflicts at work, people who are "normal" but maybe not emotionally grounded.

I have worked really hard to NOT be enmeshed, to not enable people, and similar tools to these helped me get there at a time when I couldn't spot a boundary if it had a neon sign over it.

[Louise7777]

Hi livednlearned and thank you for your answer.

Im sorry you are co-parenting with a PD person, I can understand its draining and Im glad you are finding ways to deal with it in the best way possible.

Answering your questions: I think the commenter sees codependence as supressing your own instincts and responses to appease the PD. So you have to change your automatic "normal" reactions to prevent escalation of conflict. In that sense, its not different from enabling. Not sure thats the right interpretation, but thats how I see it, at least.

You said "The biggest thing is doing all three of these that Eddy mentions: "show empathy and concern for the person, AND explain the rules or reasons the specific behavior needs to be stopped (try not to make it personal) AND what the consequences are if it continues." "

To me, personally, thats VERY hard to do. Lets take an example that happened today. In a bussiness type meeting, I was ganged up for over an hour by 5 people. Im suspected they are flying monkeys of the in charge person. I tried to show empathy, saw their point of view, but still, what they want is illegal. I explained the law but all I got was yelling. It was terrible. Telling it later to a person who knows them, she said I should had called the police.

So, in my experience, empathy doesnt work when people just want to fight to have things their way. I believe they see it as weakness and its a green light to jump at you and break your backbone. Im in a particular tough day and there´s no resolution possible. Its hard or impossible to show concern for somebody who yells at your face.

I handled it better than at the last meeting, but they are escalating and making more and more demands and threats. I know I have to disengage and ultimately say "ok, go ahead and sue me" as they have threatened. Cause I really cant back off and no reasoning seems to work.

[losingconfidence]

You are right on the abuse: they always have a justification or they simply deny it. Im familiar with the "im sicker than you", you never receive any validation from them at all. Their problems are always bigger, which makes them look like a perpetual victim, hence, they are entitled better treatment than others. How nice!

Good luck with the BPD lady. I always wonder if these people are so much sicker than me why they never work harder than I do.

[Louise7777]

Thank you, losingconfidence.

Im thinking I brought up upon myself the "narcissistic rage" cause I inadvertdly caused her a "narcissitisc injury". When I ask question and they dont know the answers (and its her job) she gets angry cause her ignorance is displayed. Of course thats not my fault, but I guess I have to go down cause I challenged her somehow.

I talked to a friend thats a lawyer yesterday and she said they are wrong in so many levels and I can sue them for at least 3 different things. So, my strategy is, next time there´s a meeting, Ill tape it and state that one more episode of bullying, harassing or threats happen, Ill sue them. Seems thats the only language they understand, no use getting into defensive/ explanatory mode and try to reach agreement. Most of the times they only understand the language of "force".

This applies to some other uBPD/ NPDs in my life and I hope it helps the readers here and encourages us all to stand up for our rights (like Bob Marley said). 

Im feeling much better now, thank you for all the support.

[hergestridge]

I can relate a lot to this subject. In multiple ways in fact.

I live in a european country and I was adopted at an early age. I was born in the early 70s and at the age of one I was place in a foster home because of my biological mother's inability to care for a child. The current paradigm in child upbringing was not that a child must maintain contact with its biological parents at any cost, so the social worker who was set to work on my case decided that it was best for me not to meet my mother again (she had five more kids and had them all taken away by the authorites BTW). My biological mother was not a junkie and not a hooker. She was just... . borderline I guess?

My younger siblings have been less fortunate. The paradigm changed. The "cold mother" theory was abandoned as anti-feminist nonsense and the bond between mother and child became sacred once again. My younger siblings were subjected to the torture of having to see their biological mother again and again even after having been placed in foster homes, realizing that the woman who once cruelly abandoned them still didn't show one ounce of regret and even felt entitled to love and support from the kids she had left behind for strangers to take care of.

Now to my current situation. Of course I grew up and met a BPD woman with whom I got a daughter. I find myself asking the question I never thought I'd have ask myself:

How do I protect my daughter from her mother?

I find that there is no way. Noone is going to help me. When I seek the authorities and tell them about how she behaves to our daughter, they immediately get to work... . helping my daughter's mother. They will try to help my daughter's mother (to little or no effect) until my daughter grows up, because they see the ill person as the victim and the person in need of help. Never mind the little girl.

That's not they would have seen it 40 years ago.

That's why I bite my tongue everytime someone says how great it is that the attitude to mental illness has changed. Because they're letting it ruin my daughter's life.

[Turkish]

I can relate a lot to this subject. In multiple ways in fact.

I live in a european country and I was adopted at an early age. I was born in the early 70s and at the age of one I was place in a foster home because of my biological mother's inability to care for a child. The current paradigm in child upbringing was not that a child must maintain contact with its biological parents at any cost, so the social worker who was set to work on my case decided that it was best for me not to meet my mother again (she had five more kids and had them all taken away by the authorites BTW). My biological mother was not a junkie and not a hooker. She was just... . borderline I guess?

My younger siblings have been less fortunate. The paradigm changed. The "cold mother" theory was abandoned as anti-feminist nonsense and the bond between mother and child became sacred once again. My younger siblings were subjected to the torture of having to see their biological mother again and again even after having been placed in foster homes, realizing that the woman who once cruelly abandoned them still didn't show one ounce of regret and even felt entitled to love and support from the kids she had left behind for strangers to take care of.

Now to my current situation. Of course I grew up and met a BPD woman with whom I got a daughter. I find myself asking the question I never thought I'd have ask myself:

How do I protect my daughter from her mother?

I find that there is no way. Noone is going to help me. When I seek the authorities and tell them about how she behaves to our daughter, they immediately get to work... . helping my daughter's mother. They will try to help my daughter's mother (to little or no effect) until my daughter grows up, because they see the ill person as the victim and the person in need of help. Never mind the little girl.

That's not they would have seen it 40 years ago.

That's why I bite my tongue everytime someone says how great it is that the attitude to mental illness has changed. Because they're letting it ruin my daughter's life.

That is horrible what they did to your younger siblings. My friend has one of his employees in a similar situation. He has majority custody of his daughter, but is forced by the courts to drive her an hour away once a week to see her mother for 4 hours. He drives up to where she stays, the daughter is crying the whole time, doesn't want to see her mom or get out of the car. So they sit there with the windows rolled up and the mother rants and yells at them the whole time until he can drive off when the time is up. What are these courts thinking sometimes? Who gets in control to write the rules?

[Louise7777]

hergestridge,

Im sorry about your situation. Seems we have to put up with a lot cause "we are faaaaaamilyyyyyyyyyy". I honestly hate that sentence for some time now, its just a textbook PD line for us to be abused.

When said to a child its even worse. I was invalidated as a child. My mom knew her sister had issues but enabled her. And told me not to fight back (!). Of course I was easier to control than her raging lunatic sister. Thats why we suffer twice: for the abuse and for being nice.

Thanks God I have good friends who know how tough PDs are and they support me. It doesnt make the punches lighter, but sure helps me recover later.

I think in your particular case, regarding your daughter, you have to be DEMANDING and PUSH the doctors/ social services to help your daughter on how to deal with her mother. Keep repeating: the main concern is the child, for me and the state as a whole. Any reasonable country/ social services/ health dept will put the child interest above the parents, no matter if the parent is sick.