Vicious Cycle

[LittleThings]

Today was communication breakdown day I guess. You all know about how our BPD children push our buttons.

Bpd/biopolar II DD, 19 has yet again, shirked responsibility and is testing us again. Someone once said a wise thing to me... "It's not what they say, it's what they do."

We had just yesterday had a discussion about her getting a job (one that is more than 1 day/wk) for about the 5th time. She's had a couple of months to accomplish this, and keeps saying she is, but from what we see, she sits around most days, or else is out with friends. And we don't tend to say much because she stresses that if she doesn't see friends then she's isolated at home... .

She tells me she has to be in the "right frame of mind" to be able to fill out an application (online). Asks us to get off her back because it makes it worse when we ask if she's done these apps. She says she has so much anxiety... . has been in therapy for months. I always hear how her therapist thinks she's doing great and she should do what makes her happy... . is this for real or a cop out on her part to tell me this?

Improvements are that she gets up every day and showers. All else is a crap shoot. There was cutting which has lessened a lot, and pot smoking which we have put an end to (at least in our home). She smokes a few cigarettes a day and buys her own. Only helps out if we ask, usually repeatedly.

She uses a car that I own/inherited. Even though she is supposed to be contributing to insurance and buying the gas herself, she continually runs out of money and asks us for it usually when she needs to get to therapy or work so we feel obligated to "loan" her some.

Went to sleep at a friend's last night and came home with orange/yellow hair (it's brown). This is not the first time we've heard about appearance changes... . has talked about shaving her head, a tattoo, having her breasts removed. 

She walked into our room to show off her new do, and we were less than thrilled. I waited a minute, and then I asked what she was thinking... . why did she do that? Her response was that her friend and she decided to bleach it so she could dye it red. My response was that it wasn't a great idea to be dying her hair an odd color if she is going to be trying to get a job, and what's up with that?

What ensued was the 3 of us arguing about responsibility, motivation, jobs and for her to show us some responsibility... . she's had all kinds of time to find a job, and this is what she does in her free time. She told me to "shove it up my *ss", and that she should have another mother... . that her therapist should be her mother. I said, "Why don't you ask her?", which wasn't exactly the shining moment of my motherhood :/ 

I was accused of not loving her or caring about her or accepting her. All I could say is do you really think that?

I feel as if we've been very patient... . there seems to be one excuse after another why she can do fun things but not responsible ones.

As she said, "I hate it here, I want to leave." and I said, "Why haven't you?" she went to go out the door. I said "Are you walking?" And she said she was taking HER car, which was when I said, "It's my car and you may not take it."

My son, 15, who got to witness this, said after she left that since we cannot find a common ground that I should stop doing anything for her/giving her anything anymore and say nothing at all. He sees that I've put in 19 years of parenting and I am at the end of my rope. He avoids communicating with her because as he put it, she's irrational and immature.

It's been a vicious cycle. My therapist said it seems as if we need to go back to parenting 101, with limits meant for a teenager instead of an adult child.

How is it supposed to work to parent an adult who behaves like a little kid who uses mental illness as an excuse to get away with having no responsibility?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

Hello Little Things,

You are in a tough spot - trying to figure out what an adult child diagnosed with mental illness is/isn't capable of doing for themselves is not an easy job... . What have you observed in the past? How was she able to handle responsibility during high-school? What is your gut telling you on all this?

That is the critical question. What does your DD absolutely need help with and what is she able to do for herself? If we do for our adult child what they are capable of doing for themselves, we are enabling them and making the situation worse - for us AND for our kids... .

Bpd/biopolar II DD, 19 has yet again, shirked responsibility and is testing us again. Someone once said a wise thing to me... "It's not what they say, it's what they do."

That is true - it is also true about us and boundaries in our lives in general. What we do/don't do speaks much louder than what we say... .

It's been a vicious cycle. My therapist said it seems as if we need to go back to parenting 101, with limits meant for a teenager instead of an adult child.

How is it supposed to work to parent an adult who behaves like a little kid who uses mental illness as an excuse to get away with having no responsibility?

It will not be easy, and it will require lots of energy and consistency on your part... . Are you up for it?

It may take a while for you to figure out, and learn all the ins and outs of it, but it basically consists of a gentle but firm structure of expectations that need to be met. If they are met, the child earns/keeps a certain privilege. If the child shirks the responsibility, the privilege is lost, but the opportunity to earn it back is there as long as she fulfills her responsibility that is directly tied to it. Her choice. No need to struggle or have verbal wrestling matches... .

It is important to keep the mindset in the positive: "as soon as/as long as you can do this, you can have this privilege." A negative/punishing approach ("if you don't do this, we will take this away" only sets you up for a power-struggle and ensures your child's rebellion against the rule.

Also - do you have the option of talking with your DD's therapist, or does your therapist understand BPD? He/she may be able to guide you better on what kinds of changes and how drastic your DD might be able to handle... .

[jellibeans]

Dear little things

I do think pwBPD are immature for their age and don't act their age. Have you read any of the articles here? I think reducing the conflict would be key at this point. I found sometimes when I would get upset or angry I was really upset and angry with myself for letting my dd16 get away with behavior that was not acceptable.

I also found that consequence talk louder than words... . If my dd is disrespectful to me then she loses a priviledge. My dd has one chore and that is to take the garbage out once a week... . she often forgets... . she doesn't get any allowance that week if she forgets.

If she wants to earn money I have extra jobs she can do... . I do not think I should hand over money with no work in exchange... . there are a lot of jobs she can do if she wants money. If your dd needs money for gas then has go right away then when she returns she can do the agreed chore.etc... .

What I found helped our family was to try and avoid power struggles... . I really try to let the natural consequences play out... . if she has no money then she can't go anywhere because she has no money for gas... . you have to stop enabling her.


BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

BOUNDARIES: Case studies

Validation--Tips and Traps for Parents

Reinforcing good behavior, positive reinforcement

Hang in there littlethings... . put some boundaries in place... and things will get better.

[LittleThings]

Thank you both!

As of this morning, she has posted a picture of her new halfway there hair, and of course a statement about, "it's my body and my choice what to do with it." She always goes to facebook to get "likes" from friends and people who have NO clue what the larger picture looks like.

It's funny, just the other day she said our relationship was one of the strongest ones she has. And that I do have good advice. Maybe part of the issue is that she has poor impulse control, and if it is immediately gratifying, then why not do it?

In HS, she was emotionally fragile, and always attached to a boy (dating), but she handled her schoolwork well, got good grades. We asked her to get a job around the time she turned 16, and she couldn't seem to be happy at work... . always some complaining, especially when she had to miss an event, or a date. We could see where her priorities were, and that anxiety was building. She could manage, though.

Now, as my DH puts it , she fell off a cliff (when she went to college for a semester and a bit more) and things have gotten worse.

We put boundaries in place about the car, but my DH feels bad that she sits around all day and says her prefers if she at least gets out a bit.

I disagree, in that I KNOW she can do more, but that it may be hard for her. She takes the easy way.

And I feel lousy when she gets away with things like taking the car without having paid towards it, going out to a club when she should be applying for jobs, sleeping all day when I've asked her to clean up, even leaving her few dishes for others to wash.

It's almost as if she is rebelling, not wanting to conform, and it feels like high school behavior. Like "if I dye my hair a crazy color, so what. If they don't give me the job that's their problem. Accept me as i am or go to *ell." And I guess we can, too.

I am not allowed to talk to her therapist, unless I have a concern. I can contact her, but it's more if I think she is a danger to herself. My DD tells me these snippets, such as the "do what makes me happy" stuff, and I have no idea what to make of it. She says her T understands BPD. I have a book her psych rec'd to order for her, "Mindfulness" by Aguirre MD.

I do discuss what she tells me with my therapist.

I will say that many changes I see in my DD are external and regarding her appearance, and that these are areas which may be easier for her to change than what's going on on the inside. This is worrisome in that there is much work to be done in other areas and it seems like a smoke screen to avoid that work.

I also worry a little that this new friend is using our DD as her pet project, and her hair is also dyed crazy colors. She seems to have taken her under her wing, not that it's all bad, but our DD has a tendency to act and style herself like any current interest. New friend has a job and is going to college.

I have tried validation and have been aware of how it works, not in a perfect way, but I'll admit that it wasn't there yesterday, especially when I was being verbally assaulted.

[pessim-optimist]

From what you are saying, it looks like your DD is capable of doing a lot for herself... .

One of the key points will be for you and your DH to be on the same page regarding what you are going to require. Otherwise, your DD will use the 'divide and conquer' tactic with ease.

I think the links that jellibeans suggested might be really helpful on the road towards more accountability and responsibility on your DD's part. Let us know what you think or if you have any questions, ok?

BTW, I hope for your DD that she reads that book she has - Blaise Aguirre is a really good expert on the young w/BPD.

I have tried validation and have been aware of how it works, not in a perfect way, but I'll admit that it wasn't there yesterday, especially when I was being verbally assaulted.

I hear you - it is so frustrating when we try to validate and help our children calm down and it doesn't work... . However, when they get past a 5 (on a scale of 1-10) on their way to being emotionally out of control, or if they start being verbally abusive, it is time to take a time out, or enforce another boundary that you are willing to use every time, to protect yourself. It is also helpful to them - as it motivates them, and helps them learn to control their choice of words.

[LittleThings]

We went over the boundaries with my car with her and she said she respected that. My DH said he could tell she was pissed inside. I will giver her credit for not lashing out at something she didn't want to hear. But she said she still stands on the "shove it up your *ss." statement so she got that little tidbit in again. I am speaking to her very little as of late.

And she also said I "kicked her out" the day we had the argument. I corrected her that she had said, "I hate it here." And I responded, "Then why are you still here." A bit different... . gave her the choice.

So far, she has gone to one interview with the hair ablazin', and not much else since.

Sitting around all day and in the evening she keeps asking, "Can my friend come over?"

Right now we are struggling with the word, "No".

Because we need our space, our home, to be a haven where we can relax and refuel for another day that will most likely be a challenge.

We did the "entertaining the friends here" in high school. As a matter of fact, our DD's boyfriends spent a lot of time here, had dinner with us, etc. and we should have put more of a limit on it then. Now, there is always a "new" friend... this time it's a girl who dresses like a bag lady and has the streaked out hair and who dyed our DD's... . sassed back to my son once while here. She will be history in a matter of weeks or months like all the others.

Do we have any obligation to provide a "hang out" place for an adult? I think it's time to get out of the house as she spends far too much time here "hanging out." All her friends drive and she can certainly work out rides.

I liked the idea of doing chores to earn some money. I know she will not pay rent, so next time she asks, we will assign her something to do

Could use help with saying "No" without feeling guilty.

[jellibeans]

Dear LittleThings

I think that is a good start... . put those boundaries in place.

Have you thought about finding some volunteer work for your dd? Food bank or old age home? I think that kind of thing can give her a sense of accomplishment and can help build her self esteem. Laying around day after day is just not good for her. Giving her other things to do might motivate her to look for a job she really wants to do... . hang in there

[pessim-optimist]

Have you thought about finding some volunteer work for your dd?

Or a humane society? If she likes animals that might be really enjoyable to her... .

Could use help with saying "No" without feeling guilty.

It's actually great that you were able to do that regarding the car and your dd was able to listen w/out getting dysregulated... .

The part about 'without feeling guilty' - the more you practice, the easier it gets, but also that workshop jellibeans posted about on Boundaries and a book with the same name can be a real help. Here are the links again just in case: BOUNDARIES - Living our values,    

Boundaries - Henry Cloud PhD, John Townsend PhD

[LittleThings]

Those are great ideas for volunteering.

What would be a good way to present this to her? I ask because I feel that when suggestions come from me, especially at this point, they are construed as trying to change her, or control what she does/doesn't do. And as much as we want to help her and know that this would help, isn't it a way to control/change her? Aren't we all here to help our BPD loved ones change and grow? Is this selfish?

I've read the article on boundaries, and what's apparent is that we are trying to reestablish boundaries that were trampled on some time ago. Yes, we allowed that to happen.

Is this a good response to "Can I have my friend over to hang out?" (yet again)

""I'm really sorry.  I wish I could do that, but I'm in kind of a bad place right now and can't do it.  I love you, and I hope I can help you get what you need later on." ... .

Because she has acted as though no matter what, or how she behaves, or whatever she does or doesn't do, she deserves to hang out here with whoever she pleases. Sometimes, she has "bullied" us by threatening to cut, or have a temper tantrum.

With regard to her taking some responsibility... . we feel we can only tie it to use of the car.

[jellibeans]

Dear LittleThings

You are right... . is it important how you represnet this. I might try and make it a choice... . you can volunteer, find a job or do these chores around the house if you want to stay here or if you want to have friends over... . maybe tie it to that? If you volunteer so many hours a week then you can have friends over for a certain amount of time or days? If it is presented that she is erning a priviledge then maybe it will go over better. But what you say is right... . if she sees like she is being forced to do something she will not like that... . if you have the approach that it is totally up her if she want to then fine... . it is finding the carrot here that will motivate her but being prepared that she might not like it.

[Rapt Reader]

What would be a good way to present this to her? I ask because I feel that when suggestions come from me, especially at this point, they are construed as trying to change her, or control what she does/doesn't do. And as much as we want to help her and know that this would help, isn't it a way to control/change her? Aren't we all here to help our BPD loved ones change and grow? Is this selfish?

No, you are not being selfish, LittleThings 

Have you tried using Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it using the TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth? There are ways to communicate with our children with BPD that minimizes their bristling back at us when we do it, and helps us to help them with their lives. In every instance you are mentioning, you can use S.E.T. to communicate with her.

S=Support: Daughter, I can certainly understand that you would love to have your friend over to hang out tonight (or whatever the situation is).

E=Empathy: I love hanging out with my friends, too, and there's nothing wrong with that.

T=Truth: Right now (or today, or tonight, whatever the situation is) is not the right time for that to work. How about another time when things are better for that to work out? (or whatever you want the outcome to be)

You can use it for seeing if she is interested in doing volunteer work, too.

Can you come up with any ideas--knowing your own situation and daughter better than we do--on how to use S.E.T. to communicate with your daughter, once you've read the links above? We'd love to help you with this; let us know what ideas and questions you have about this technique after you've read the links, LittleThings, and we'll be here to listen and help with that 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[LittleThings]

Yes, definitely need help.  Also, this seems like validation in a sense, but is more of a way to introduce conversation, instead of calming things down.

If I were to go back to the point at which our DD came home with orange/red hair (instead of looking for a job) we could've said' this:

Oh, you dyed your hair.

It's fun to experiment with our hair.

You do know that it may be an obstacle in getting hired.   ?

For lack of/feeble attempt at getting a job:

You're finding it hard to look for work.

It can be difficult to find a job.

It takes a lot of effort, and we know you can make that effort.

For the car:

You enjoy using my car for pleasure activities.

It's a great privilege to have the use of a car.

You must be responsible enough to contribute financially in order to have that privilege.

And just for fun: ( I know we can't support this)

You told me to shove it up my *ss

Those are harsh words to say to someone.

I have never spoke to you that way, and expect you to speak to me respectfully.

Would there be better ways to use S.E.T. in those exchanges?

And please help with a response to, "(my new friend) and I are dating now." She hasn't announced it yet, but I happened to see on fb.

I want to pull my hair out, and scream "are you nuts? You already are taking on her physical characteristics by dying your hair crazy colors, dressing like a bag lady, and you have no job, and no money and you are verbally abusive to us when we ask you to take responsibility. Do you really expect her to take care of you? Do you not see that this will be a repeat of every single relationship you've had thus far? And you expect us to be excited about said friend?"

New friend has driven my DD everywhere and I suspect pays for things, too. She was the one who facilitated the crazy hair.

Oh dear   I do think that we are made out to be the problem, because we don't support her way of life... . the sitting around, the attention getting physical changes, the dating, the irresponsibility ("I'm too feeble!" when she should be working on so many other things. honestly... . they do tend to make us out to be non-supportive when we would truly love to support anything positive... . but we don't see anything at this point!

[pessim-optimist]

Those are some nice exercises LittleThings... .  

If you want to use SET  - there are lots of ways to do it. Everyone has their own style and we also get better with practicing. As long as you have the right components (Support, Empathy, Truth), you are doing good.

If I were to offer a critique, this is what I'd say:

Oh, you dyed your hair.

It's fun to experiment with our hair.

You do know that it may be an obstacle in getting hired.   ?

In this one, you have the right components. I personally would split this message into two separate conversations. First - reaction to her new hair.(she doesn't want to hear anything else at that point). Second - my opinion of how her new hair color might affect her job-hunting:

1. You dyed your hair. It's fun to experiment with our hair-color, isn't it? (if she asked me how I liked it, I'd say:) I'm a bit older, so to me it looks a bit wild, but I'm glad you like it.

2. I thought about your new hair color. Have you been enjoying it? What kind of reactions do you get from people? (and based on what she says she may like it or start disliking it - that would be better - I'd craft my response)

a. if she said - 'oh, everyone loves it!' - "It feels good to feel pretty, doesn't it? I'm glad you feel good about yourself, at the same time I worry that it might be harder for you to get a job, now." (that might open a good conversation, or trigger an angry response - in both cases validating her feelings helps).

b. if she doesn't like it that much - "Well, it was fun to try it out, wasn't it? You can always change it back."

About her announcement of her new girlfriend: she is in the idealization stage and will not hear anything negative... .

Let's see what the other parents would say... .

[LittleThings]

Yes, the idealization stage. I can't count how many times we've been through this stage and the whole cycle. It's just too painful to watch. I believe this, among other reasons, is why we have to refuse to have them hanging out here.

We'd always think, "oh this is the one." And then it all falls apart... . badly. And we have no control over the pattern, it just repeats and repeats... .

Any other parents in a situation like this? I would appreciate any input.