They get their hooks in you...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

One of the main questions I keep reading about on the board has to do with why someone would stay in an r/s with a pwBPDgf. From an outsider's viewpoint, it seems like a no-brainer that any rational person would leave and not look back. Sometimes I even get the idea that the victim of a bad r/s with a pwBPD is being chided and told to work on THEIR issues. While everyone has their issues to a greater or lesser extent, I would just like to dwell for a bit on why what seems to be ridiculous judgment to remain in the r/s is far from simple.

Most would agree that first impressions can be very strong. After the first few dates with a pwBPD, it seems so likely they will have stamped you with an almost indelible impression that they are a wonderful, kind, honest, loving, interesting person. And not only that, but they look at you with that smile and those eyes and you're overwhelmed with the idea that you are adored, appreciated, and understood. You're the smartest, funniest, sexiest, most interesting man in the world. You're like frigging Captain Morgan, for Heaven's sake! They're attractive, they're sexually available, and they're oh so good!

In effect, they have snuck beyond all your radar and disabled your skepticism. Like an HIV virus that destroys your immune system! From that point on, you will be programmed to believe that their idealization of you and the fact that they're almost impossibly wonderful is the true person. That will become your default setting.

As the r/s progresses and the toxic behavior starts to manifest itself, you will regard it as an aberration, and something that may be largely your fault. This girlfriend of yours has after all established herself in your mind as innately sensational in all ways, and she's made it so clear that you are unconditionally the one she's been searching all her life. How could a problem therefore be on her? It's YOUR fault, so you scramble to make things better, get closer, go the extra mile... . and all that does it push her further away because now the triggers are REALLY being pulled.

It's all about the chase. It's all about gaining control. And it exacts an emotional price from the pwBPD that at some point she isn't willing to pay anymore, and you're history.

I am trying not to exaggerate, but I think being drawn into such a r/s by such a brilliant master of deception is not only addictive but is also an example of indoctrination, of mind control... . of brainwashing! I'm not quite sure of how conscious they are of what they're doing to you. Maybe that's what makes them so good at it; it comes from DEEP. It's who they are; it's what they are. Poor impulse control. Intensity. Roller coaster emotions. Crippling fears of intimacy and abandonment. Mirroring. Projecting. Black and white thinking. Lack of esteem and true sense of self.

How does the average man wake up on the average day and see THAT all coming?

What school could have prepared you for THIS?

[day2day]

One of the main questions I keep reading about on the board has to do with why someone would stay in an r/s with a pwBPDgf. From an outsider's viewpoint, it seems like a no-brainer that any rational person would leave and not look back. Sometimes I even get the idea that the victim of a bad r/s with a pwBPD is being chided and told to work on THEIR issues. While everyone has their issues to a greater or lesser extent, I would just like to dwell for a bit on why what seems to be ridiculous judgment to remain in the r/s is far from simple.

Most would agree that first impressions can be very strong. After the first few dates with a pwBPD, it seems so likely they will have stamped you with an almost indelible impression that they are a wonderful, kind, honest, loving, interesting person. And not only that, but they look at you with that smile and those eyes and you're overwhelmed with the idea that you are adored, appreciated, and understood. You're the smartest, funniest, sexiest, most interesting man in the world. You're like frigging Captain Morgan, for Heaven's sake! They're attractive, they're sexually available, and they're oh so good!

In effect, they have snuck beyond all your radar and disabled your skepticism. Like an HIV virus that destroys your immune system! From that point on, you will be programmed to believe that their idealization of you and the fact that they're almost impossibly wonderful is the true person. That will become your default setting.

As the r/s progresses and the toxic behavior starts to manifest itself, you will regard it as an aberration, and something that may be largely your fault. This girlfriend of yours has after all established herself in your mind as innately sensational in all ways, and she's made it so clear that you are unconditionally the one she's been searching all her life. How could a problem therefore be on her? It's YOUR fault, so you scramble to make things better, get closer, go the extra mile... . and all that does it push her further away because now the triggers are REALLY being pulled.

It's all about the chase. It's all about gaining control. And it exacts an emotional price from the pwBPD that at some point she isn't willing to pay anymore, and you're history.

I am trying not to exaggerate, but I think being drawn into such a r/s by such a brilliant master of deception is not only addictive but is also an example of indoctrination, of mind control... . of brainwashing! I'm not quite sure of how conscious they are of what they're doing to you. Maybe that's what makes them so good at it; it comes from DEEP. It's who they are; it's what they are. Poor impulse control. Intensity. Roller coaster emotions. Crippling fears of intimacy and abandonment. Mirroring. Projecting. Black and white thinking. Lack of esteem and true sense of self.

How does the average man wake up on the average day and see THAT all coming?

What school could have prepared you for THIS?

[Fool for Love]

Very good post ! and I agree... we all want love ... but the way they show it blows our minds... we cant believe how this can happen... I AM SO SPECIAL to this person... they make you feel like you are the KING or QUEEN ... . I can honestly say... this is what I thought love was suppose to be... someone so interested in me... love me... gentle... . loves to do what you do... . but then they start to change... I look back now and can see the small changes... but by then you are so wrapped up in them... you don't see it... I have dropped friends and family for less than I put up with her... and she always twisted it to be my fault... that I made her feel a certain way...

[Stjarna]

Brilliant!  And I agree especially about the indoctrination, mind control, and brain washing.   I was 16 when I met what I thought was the love of my life, 17 when he pressured me to get married.  There was no way I could have seen what lay ahead at that age.  It's a miracle I am away from him now, when I really think about it.

Thanks for your insight and taking the time to share!

[david31]

This post is spot on. The idealization part of my relationship with my exBPDgf was overwhelming and exhilarating. Never experienced it before in any other relationship. I brushed off the red flags as simply quirks of human nature, because I guess everyone is different, and I didn't want to lose something so good.

One of the reasons I became so attached to her was because the relationship was so intense and emotionally loaded.

By the time she broke up with me I was defeated. My self-esteem was broken and I was thinking: 'What on earth just happened?' and 'What did I do to destroy something so good?'

I had no idea what BPD was until about two months after she broke up with me and started reading about it. She mentioned (off the cuff) she had it early on in the relationship, but I didn't pay much notice to it. I'm so glad I remembered she told me, or I'd still be really confused.

And you're right - those eyes. Omg those eyes. Even just thinking about the way she looked at me with those eyes gives me butterflies right now  :'(

[Skip]

One of the main questions I keep reading about on the board has to do with why someone would stay in an r/s with a pwBPDgf. From an outsider's viewpoint, it seems like a no-brainer that any rational person would leave and not look back. Sometimes I even get the idea that the victim of a bad r/s with a pwBPD is being chided and told to work on THEIR issues.

Hi day2day,

Good question!  I think many ponder and struggle with it.

First, I don't think the issue is "why did we stay" - that sounds rather passive.  Most of these relationships weren't passive at all - just like one person can't really be passive in a fist fight.

If any of us looked in on an AlAnon meeting, we would hear how the non-drinking partner was an active participant in the alcoholism - an enabler - and how alcoholism is a family disease.

I think we can draw many parallels in a BPD relationship.  It's not easy to see at first - but talk to any old timer here that has risen from a bad BPD relationship - either saving a marriage or walking away - they all say the same.

I am trying not to exaggerate, but I think being drawn into such a r/s by such a brilliant master of deception is not only addictive but is also an example of indoctrination, of mind control... . of brainwashing!

This sounds like an incredible super villain.

It's who they are; it's what they are. Poor impulse control. Intensity. Roller coaster emotions. Crippling fears of intimacy and abandonment. Mirroring. Projecting. Black and white thinking. Lack of esteem and true sense of self.

This sounds someone who is weak, out of control, and hapless.

Could this all be the same person?

I might ask myself, how "expert" am I in understanding what was going on in her head?  In the beginning, many of us are like a sailer on the sea looking at the horizon and explaining how the world is flat. You observations are reasoned and very well articulated... . but, like the sailor, biased on your immediate feelings and perceptions.  

We have all been there - so its easy to relate.  

It really helps to delve into a clinical understanding of the disease so that we can see and isolate her pathologies and then see our own (if any).

Most would agree that first impressions can be very strong. After the first few dates with a pwBPD, it seems so likely they will have stamped you with an almost indelible impression that they are a wonderful, kind, honest, loving, interesting person. And not only that, but they look at you with that smile and those eyes and you're overwhelmed with the idea that you are adored, appreciated, and understood. You're the smartest, funniest, sexiest, most interesting man in the world.

Isn't this the mutual dream, the fantasy that both often end up sincerely believing and sharing.  The BPD person may have started it, but eventually everyone bought into it ad desperately wanted it.  It is extremely intoxicating to both parties.

It's all about the chase dream... . And it exacts an emotional price from the pwBPD to please you and keep the dream alive that at some point she isn't willing to pay anymore, and you're history.

Is it the chase?  Or could it simply be an unrealistic or fragile dream that started breaking down and neither wanted to let go of at first.

I don't want to generalize too much, but does this explanation many sense to you?

[day2day]

Thanks for the response, Skip. I'm struggling somewhat to put some of your comments into play here.

I'm certainly trying to avoid the appearance of bias. I've read extensively in the past year, not just the junk psychology but heavy duty clinical stuff as well.

I didn't know about BPD until the r/s abruptly ended. I was aware of our r/s trending downward but I attributed it to other things that seemed to make sense at the time. There was a lot of job stress for her and some FOO issues, there was post-menopause, and there was a big IRS problem. I saw depression and anxiety to be sure. I saw a problem but I misread it. I know now that depression and anxiety can very well be symptoms of BPD rather than ultimate answers to what ailed her.

I've found out so much about my exBPDgf in the year we've been apart from multiple sources (mutual friends) as well as limited contacts I've had with her. Lies, distortions, cheating, erratic behavior, bad decisions and so much more that had been covered up so effectively for years began to surface in bunches once I began to do some investigating. These bombshells and revelations led me to an all-out pursuit of an answer beyond anything I considered up to that point. The shift it caused in my mindset was monumental.

I'm having a hard time with the analogy to an enabler of an alcoholic. The enabler knows it's booze in the bottle and not Diet Pepsi. BPD is unheard of by many people and frankly almost unimaginable. I will plead ignorance, but do not consider myself an enabler here.

I'm also having a hard time with the sailor and the horizon analogy. Any sailor worth his salt (pun intended) should note that as a ship appears on the distant horizon, he sees the mast before the rest of the ship. Such would not be the case with a flat Earth. I'm trained as a scientist and therefore very careful and thorough as possible regarding a faulty hypothesis, whether it's concerning the shape of the planet or the behavior of a troubled person. If a hypothesis is wrong or incomplete, I'm prepared to move on from it. Like you said, we continually grow and learn by probing. The take I have today on my r/s I'm sure is not a final product, but I feel I have a much better handle on what went on here than I did around a year ago when the wound was fresh and spurting blood. I've compiled a list of well over one hundred specifics from our r/s that BPD explains far better than any other alternative.

To answer your seminal question, I think evil things can indeed happen as the result of a person's weaknesses and deficits. In my original post I implied that the pwBPD may not be intending to hurt or be cruel, but the end result is in fact hurt and cruelty. I don't consider them villains; they are people with a severe behavioral disorder. They are also hurting big time; I get that. But in terms of the havoc they create, pardon me for sometimes thinking they might as well be villains.

[ScotisGone74]

To follow that up I have to disagree with Skip.  First is that an enabler is someone who knows exactly what the alcoholic ,etc other problem or addiction, that the person they are with is doing /has and allows it to continue or even encourages it.    It is not possible to be an enabler to something you are unaware is taking place or to a condition you don't know they have.    Its akin to enabling your spouse to have cancer or heart disease.    Personally I believe its a little short sided to label Nons as enablers.     But we were getting something out of the relationship to be in it , be that  love, sex, compliments , or someone to rescue/ take care of.    If those are our main "issues" then I ll take them any day over being a pill head , liar , cheater, abuser, manipulator, con artist. 

[LettingGo14]

This is a helpful discussion & healthy debate.    I just want to add my perspective, which is slowly evolving as I learn more about the disorder, and as I reflect on my role in it.   I felt cheated and screwed and lost following my r/s, which had cycles and recycles.   I was angry and depressed, and I felt completed depleted mentally and emotionally.  

I am not writing this to be confrontational.   I am simply trying to "autopsy" my failed r/s for a number of reasons: to dissipate any remaining FOG, to detach completely, to move on with my life, and to avoid undifferentiated, emotionally reactive relationships in the future.

There were dozens of red flags in my relationship.  If I had been more differentiated (as defined by Murray Bowen), I could have stopped participating in the relationship, accepted being painted black, and moved on.  Instead, I reacted to the shame & blame and engaged & disengaged in the push & pull.   I recycled.  I begged her to come back.  I pushed away when I felt her trying to rip me open as if to take control.  

I hate to admit this to myself, but I became addicted to her.   The little "wins" kept me hooked.  The sex. The moments of intimacy. Over 4 years, I ceded self.   I thought I was doing it in the name of love.  

I didn't know about BPD. But I do now.  And I release myself from thinking I could have saved her.  Or us.

Now I know that boundaries are healthy.  That developing self is important.  That it's okay to walk away to preserve self.  

I don't know if I was "mugged" or if I was an "enabler."   All I know is that I know something now I did not know then.   And that will change my life.

[Skip]

I'm certainly trying to avoid the appearance of bias. ... . If a hypothesis is wrong or incomplete, I'm prepared to move on from it. Like you said, we continually grow and learn by probing... . The take I have today on my r/s I'm sure is not a final product, but I feel I have a much better handle on what went on here than I did around a year ago when the wound was fresh and spurting blood. I've compiled a list of well over one hundred specifics from our r/s that BPD explains far better than any other alternative.

To answer your seminal question, I think evil things can indeed happen as the result of a person's weaknesses and deficits. In my original post I implied that the pwBPD may not be intending to hurt or be cruel, but the end result is in fact hurt and cruelty.

I certainly read sincerity in your posts and, without question, bad things can come from a persons weakness... . we need to look no further than at how many people have been victimized by addicts scrambling to deal with their addiction.

I was recovering from major surgery when I intercepted an e-mail indicating she was planning to meet with an unnamed male for coffee. Red flag #2. In this E-mail she portrayed herself as if she had no one or nothing.

I confronted her. She gave me the "I didn't know how you felt about me" story. I told her right then and there I wanted us to get engaged.

Is this a example of enabling and desperately clutching a dream - couldn't you tell the "alcohol" from the  "diet coke"?

I'm nine months out and I dreaded each calendar month because there's something big in each one: vacation, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Super Bowl, and many more. I noticed, however, that once I passed each milepost, my awful feeling about it lessened. I'm inclined to think that the second year through will be less traumatic. I think if we can survive the first year things should begin to feel better.

And isn't this a sign of struggling to let it go of the dream?  If you truly felt she was "evil" it would be easy to detach - let her go.  This sounds more like the feelings of betrayal - breaking or violation of a presumptive contract, trust, or confidence that produces moral and psychological conflict.

Maybe the hardest part in a postmortem is coming to grasp with the fact that we had a part in sinking our own dream.  I couldn't entertain that thought for a long time.  I adored her.  I had a huge emotional investment in her children.  I was patient, steady, diligent, caring, forgiving, generous... . her family thought I was the best thing to come into her life. I was proud of myself.

So how was I possibly an enabler? How was I sinking the dream?

I swept the red flags under the rug just like you - oh I fussed a bit, but we never resolved them (one way or another) in a healthy way - and they resurfaced occasionally in a different way.  I was weak.  I couldn't let go of the fantasy.  I made compromises I should not have made.

But my story is not your story - you will need to travel your own path to your own truth - I'm sharing my thinking only to challenge yours in month #9.   This will take time.   

[goldylamont]

Skip I always appreciate your perspective because there is a lot of wisdom there to self reflect on, and i feel that you are also respectful and encouraging for people to find their own answers.

i'll start off with a quote i recently posted on another thread i feel is relevant:

"Sometimes we attract exactly what we need to grow, and sometimes a sociopath walks through the door, one who can fool anyone... . " -Jeff Brown

day2day, i will give you some of my experience thus far and perhaps it will help -- the first few months to a year i found out about BPD and participating on these boards, i learned a lot about BPD, but also a lot about "nons". what i learned is that it seems the majority of us nons (at least on these boards) tend to deal with issues of co-dependency (not being able to leave), FOO (family of origin) issues, people-pleasing tendencies, or "fixer" personalities. and many were unaware of these qualities until they met a pwBPD, which forced them to deal with it.

when i first started posting, i would get many replies also asking "so, why did you stay then? must be something going on with you... . " and i would really try hard looking at myself to see what this could be, i was actually a little anxious for a while, but none of the above issues seemed to fit me. but i didn't speak up initially as i felt it may offend others if i stated that i don't think i have these issues. i looked throughout my past and i haven't been in r/s like this before, i don't see a pattern. i've also had one r/s after xBPD an this r/s was healthy. and i plan to stay strong so that i don't have to go through this again. i'm not perfect and was far from it in this r/s, however to this day i still don't identify with the above personality traits.

another common meme was "well, a healthy person would never be in a r/s with a pwBPD... . so something has to be wrong with you... . ". at this point i started questioning other nons (in a constructive manner i hope) and we got some good dialogue going on. i considered myself relatively 'healthy' when i met my ex, not perfect but healthy.

i read your first post but of course i don't know your complete story. that being said, a similarity you and i share is that i didn't find out about BPD until long after our breakup. more importantly, i didn't witness much of my ex's worst behavior until *after* we broke up. definitely now looking back i see lots of red flags, but no i didn't think she was capable of behaving how she did after our final break, and this was both eye opening and devastating for me.

so, my answer to "why did you stay so long?" is simply--I didn't. i don't feel like i stayed too long. in fact i feel extremely fortunate to have taken measures and ended the relationship before it got even worse. what i'm realizing is that some people stayed and recycled many times over even after seeing the things i saw in her after our breakup--blatant lying, smearing, manipulation, sexual shaming, friends/family telling them to leave, etc. i did stay through much devaluation and terrible fights, and i did have boundaries crossed, and damn if i didn't want her back afterwards... . but hell no did i 'stay too long' once i truly found out who she really was. i was always supportive and protective, but i'm like this with all friends and family and i don't feel like i overdid this in our r/s. i feel these are good qualities i have and don't feel she took advantage of them or that i overused them. i entered the r/s with good intentions and honesty and i left the r/s the same.

so it truly is up to you to do the soul searching and digging and try and answer these questions for yourself. although i have a different self understanding than the majority of the nons on this board, i've gained invaluable insights from all (and had a few good laughs too ). but, ya, for me, silly me, sometimes it just feels like "a sociopath just walked through the door"  (oh no i know i'm getting called out for this)

[ScotisGone74]

Some great posts.   My question to those that have posted :  have you ever been in a relationship that had absolutely no red flags and was perfect for you in every way?   

I seriously doubt most have.   If you were you wouldn't be here. 

Life is full of ups and downs and during certain periods we may do things we otherwise wouldn't do.     Even healthy people are not immune to never being fooled or manipulated.    The important thing for us all is to learn something from our experience and grow in a positive manner.   

[Fool for Love]

And isn't this a sign of struggling to let it go of the dream?  If you truly felt she was "evil" it would be easy to detach - let her go.  This sounds more like the feelings of betrayal - breaking or violation of a presumptive contract, trust, or confidence that produces moral and psychological conflict.

Maybe the hardest part in a postmortem is coming to grasp with the fact that we had a part in sinking our own dream.  I couldn't entertain that thought for a long time.  I adored her.  I had a huge emotional investment in her children.  I was patient, steady, diligent, caring, forgiving, generous... . her family thought I was the best thing to come into her life. I was proud of myself.

So how was I possibly an enabler? How was I sinking the dream?

I swept the red flags under the rug just like you - oh I fussed a bit, but we never resolved them (one way or another) in a healthy way - and they resurfaced occasionally in a different way.  I was weak.  I couldn't let go of the fantasy.  I made compromises I should not have made.

Skip... I just had a light bulb go off. you are right as far as my situations... I held onto a dream no matter what she did... Nobody can do to us that we do not allow in some way... the hurtful words, cheating and so on... I would sweep the "red flags" under the rug... any other relationship that I have been in... . I never allowed such mistreatment...  

[LettingGo14]

I like this discussion alot, because it challenges my thinking.  And it forces me to evaluate where on the spectrum of experience "feels right" to me as I evaluate my own circumstances, which will be different from others, of course. 

when i first started posting, i would get many replies also asking "so, why did you stay then? must be something going on with you... . " and i would really try hard looking at myself to see what this could be, i was actually a little anxious for a while, but none of the above issues seemed to fit me. but i didn't speak up initially as i felt it may offend others if i stated that i don't think i have these issues. i looked throughout my past and i haven't been in r/s like this before, i don't see a pattern. i've also had one r/s after xBPD an this r/s was healthy. and i plan to stay strong so that i don't have to go through this again. i'm not perfect and was far from it in this r/s, however to this day i still don't identify with the above personality traits.

This is a great reflection.  It's much more complex than answering, "Why did you stay... . "  And I think people will arrive at different conclusions, or a multi-variate conclusion:  (a) I was fooled, and/or (b) I was codependent, and/or (c) I was hooked by x, y, or z.   

One of the most fundamental things we share is the deep pain after these relationships end.  We all sort through wreckage of some sort.  I think what I'm trying to internalize is that "blame" won't help me now, either blaming myself for staying, or my ex-girlfriend for her behavior.

another common meme was "well, a healthy person would never be in a r/s with a pwBPD... . so something has to be wrong with you... . ". at this point i started questioning other nons (in a constructive manner i hope) and we got some good dialogue going on. i considered myself relatively 'healthy' when i met my ex, not perfect but healthy.

It's so hard to move away from language of "right" and "wrong" or "healthy" and "unhealthy" but I don't want to use those words on myself, or my ex-girlfriend, or anyone else.

We're all hurting here.  We all want the pain to end.  And, on this board, most of us want to detach, and move on.   For me, labeling "right" or "wrong" keeps me stuck.   

I'm learning, slowly, that all of this is a process.  And, engaging in conversations like these help me unpack the complexity.

Thanks to all for the respectful and articulate dialogue.   

[Skip]

I think what I'm trying to internalize is that "blame" won't help me now, either blaming myself for staying, or my ex-girlfriend for her behavior.

Judging right and wrong is counter productive. Many of us spent a lot of energy in the relationship judging and being judged. How many times do we read, "its not all my fault" or "its all her/his fault"

Comprehension and understanding is very productive.  If we can reconstruct the wreckage and understand what happened we can process it and we can learn from it and go forward with strength.

What is the difference between "Judging" and "comprehension and understanding"?  

Is it simply blame vs growth?  Is it indulging prejudice verses seeking enlightenment?

When I go to my ski instructor, we spend no time judging.  All the energy is spent on comprehension, understanding and growth.

Doing the postmortem, breaking the relationship down, finding out what broke down is of great value.  We are often blind to our side of it or its affects.  If it was obvious to us, we'd probably have dealt with it long ago.  

Maybe it wasn't the relationship dynamics at all - maybe it was unrealistic expectations, or denial of the obvious, or struggles with rejection - or maybe addiction.

If you can put a finger on it - you can start working it.

[rougeetnoir]

You'll forgive me, but I don't think AlAnon should be a good model, for several reasons: one, study after study about the organization from whom AlAnon's techniques are derived, AA (from non-andecdotal perspective), have shown that AA participants have an alarmingly high level of recidivism.  That is, it just doesn't work (see this recent article for instance: www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_pseudo_science_of_alcoholics_anonymous_theres_a_better_way_to_treat_addiction/).

Second, the comments raised by ScottisGone and Side by Side have to be addressed. The differences are often greater than the similarities.  BPD is ill-defined by the medical community and consequently includes a wide variety of behaviors.  In fact, as was pointed out they are often completely contradictory.

[Rapt Reader]

have shown that AA participants have an alarmingly high level of recidivism.  That is, it just doesn't work.

Hi rougeetnoir

As a point of clarification, there is no recommendation in this thread or in the bpdfamily literature suggesting a 12-Step Program for treating BPD or for recovering from a failed "BPD relationship".    

The point was that many people entering into and staying in a relationship with prolonged and significant dysfunction are participants in that dysfunction. When someone reports the relationship as being both toxic and addicted to it (or comfortable with it), the issues often go beyond the one party. Skip suggested that this is an avenue we should at least explore.

There is also no suggestion that one size fits all. After 75,000 members, we see different clusters of members/relationships types.

And I agree that all modes of alcohol recovery show surprisingly low recovery rates, and that people that complete 27 weeks of AA meetings during the first year of membership show comparable recovery rates to therapy. And people that invest thousands in a rehab clinic do also.

I think this article in Scientific American presents a very balanced view of AA, rehab, and therapy recovery rates.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-alcoholics-anonymous-work/

AA is unique in that it has lots of members with little commitment who can show up here and there for free, and really aren't invested in recovery.

True here, too.  

I don't want to hijack day2day's thread. We can start another thread on AA if you like; it's an interesting topic.

Rapt Reader

[day2day]

I like the story of the blind men and the elephant? Just as there are many aspects to the anatomy of an elephant, there are many aspects to a human personality.

Since I began to learn about BPD, I found there was a whole major section of elephant I hadn't explored. Maybe it was simply out of my reach at that point. But the truth is, I now know a lot more about that elephant.

When elephants go on a rampage for whatever reason, they can cause devastation. But do I consider an elephant evil? Of course not.

At the point of possible betrayal you referred to, couldn't I tell the difference between Diet Pepsi and alcohol? No. I was miserably ill and had very recently almost died, and here was the one person I thought was there for me testing the waters. I was shocked, bewildered, and I put up the best confrontation I could under the circumstances. I told her how I felt and asked her if she was in or out. It was "Fool me once, shame on you... . fool me twice, shame on me." She wanted back in, and despite other problems that emerged later, which I attributed to other things that seemed reasonable as I mentioned before, I never caught her doing that sort of thing again. Had I known about BPD and not felt like a dead man walking, would I have played the cards I was being dealt there differently? Yes. For example, I've now read a number of posts and articles that mention serious illness of a significant other triggering fears of abandonment in a pwBPD and causing acting out.

As far as being reluctant to let go once I found out about BPD, I can tell you that my new knowledge helped tremendously. But it's still a grief situation. A loss is a loss. Humans have evolved a human brain laid on top of a mammalian brain draped around a reptilian brain. It's a scary thing having a brain like this. At the risk of some hyperbole, we're primates with Stone Age tempers and 21st century nuclear weapons! Big losses hurt regardless of the reasons and a lot of time and processing seems unavoidable, trying to get all three layers of this brain to co-exist peacefully. Those holidays and special events happened and they were largely wonderful, as were many, many other times. Wonderful seemed the norm; crazy seemed the aberration. Did I and do I feel betrayed? Certainly I do. Do I think my ex is evil? No. But I think she has a disorder that manifests itself in evil ways. Most importantly, do I have a much better understanding what I've been through? Yes.  And no, I don't want to go back and rekindle the good times or try to fix her or anything of the sort.

So I sit on the beach, shed my miserable, tattered wet clothes, take a deep breath, and watch the doomed ship sail on.

[ScotisGone74]

My question to the posters here is this:  if we were such enablers or such a large part of the dysfunction in the relationship then why are we here discussing this topic on the forum and in NC with the exBpd instead of still in the relationship with them or in some contact?      The answer is we now "Know" for a fact, without a doubt, we did all we could and it wouldn't make any difference.   True sickness doesn't respond to love or caring.   

Each person s experience with a BPD is different in some ways.   If you feel you enabled your exBPD or made it worse that is your right to feel that.     I was honest with my exBPD and did the best I could to help her during our relationship and for that I have no regrets.

[AwakenedOne]

I don't consider myself as an enabler to her. I feel each case is different.

When my uBPDstbxW and I were married I saw no signs of mental illness or even toxicity. I took my wedding vows very seriously also = holy matrimony. Then in a matter of months thru the next four years things went from great to bad to worse. I did not accept the behavior of this person at all. I didn't say "whatever honey, it's ok". I forgave and insisted on it not happening again. I was lied to over and over and over. This person tells me they are soo sorry and tears and then happens again or something equally as bad. Over time it becomes like I don't even know who the real her is with the lies. I then begin to have even less toleration for her behaviors which makes her more angry and she leaves me in the dust with no "good luck" "sorry" or anything. Her loss though.

[BacknthSaddle]

we all want love ... but the way they show it blows our minds... we cant believe how this can happen... I AM SO SPECIAL to this person... they make you feel like you are the KING or QUEEN ... . I can honestly say... this is what I thought love was suppose to be... someone so interested in me... love me... gentle... . loves to do what you do

There is so much of value in this thread that posting downstream is a daunting task.  I think ultimately the questions of blame and enabling and villainy, while important, may sidestep the biggest issue of all, which is quoted above.  I think most of us who get involved with BPD partners do not really have a conception of love that does not involve this kind of idealization and adoration, or at least any "love" without it feels incomplete.  At the time we are in the relationship, we DON'T recognize this as a red flag: we think it is what love is supposed to be.  A balanced, reciprocal love with appropriate boundaries and strong senses of self might even seem boring to us, and we might dismiss it as "lacking passion" or the like, not recognizing what true relationship health is. 

Maybe the hardest part in a postmortem is coming to grasp with the fact that we had a part in sinking our own dream.  I couldn't entertain that thought for a long time.

On a separate note, while everyone's story is admittedly different, I find this note to be far from my personal truth.  For me, the most difficult part of the post-mortem has been acknowledging that the sinking of the dream was not SOLELY my responsibility. I find myself to be acutely aware of my own pathology, and I struggle with feelings that my partner was completely normal and reasonable, and that no one would have allowed the relationship with me to survive.  The obviously comes from deeply entrenched FOO issues, but I have to say that I've found excessive dwelling on my own part in sinking the dream has been more problematic that dwelling on my partners role.  Acknowledging that we both had a role, that the dream was likely destined to sink, achieving some sort of balance in this regard, seems to me to be a reasonable goal, albeit one I am struggling with. 

[Lamaiel]

I think most of us who get involved with BPD partners do not really have a conception of love that does not involve this kind of idealization and adoration, or at least any "love" without it feels incomplete.

BacknthSaddle, this really hits home for me personally.  I'm a 30 year old male, and had NEVER had a serious r/s before my 6 month r/s with my exBPD.  I had nothing to compare/contract the idealization stage against... . I had no experience with an r/s, much less love!  Now admittedly, I believe I had a milder version of the idealization stage (instead of outward claims of love, she was almost immediately insistent on spending the upcoming holidays together, meeting family, getting a dog, etc), but I still thought most of the behavior was perhaps typical of an early stage r/s, especially since ours appears to be "special", and "unique".   I accepted the behavior for the most part, albeit with some hesitation.  I think if I had previous r/s experience the idealization would have triggered many more red flags.

Now that being said, it was during the devaluation stage I know I personally become an enabler, sacrificed boundaries, denied certain realities, made excuses, and began to do whatever I could for the dream.  The dream I knew deep inside was slowly crumbling.  Even without r/s experience, I knew something was wrong here, and I privately acknowledged the red flags.  Yet I did nothing, because again... . lets keep the dream alive eh? Even if that dream is slowly transitioning to a nightmare.

She was sexually abused as a child, so its OK if she rages at me in public. She used to cut herself, so its OK that she is an emotional roller coaster. It's OK that I don't criticize or argue with her, because she can't take handle that emotionally.  Its fine that I never address her flaws or question her, because I want this relationship to last.  Everything MUST be my fault, because she says so.

Even a month out of the r/s in which I was dumped and a replacement found, when she casually asked me for expensive concert tickets I had bought for her as surprise 3 days before the r/s ended... . I STILL created excuses, I STILL thought maybe I have the wrong perspective, and I still wondered if perhaps this was a reasonable request!

Enabling, excuses, more enabling, more excuses.  I allowed her to destroy my self respect, my personal boundaries.  That was my choice, I have to take personal responsibility for my actions, and I need to be accountable for what led me down this path. 

If I can't look in the mirror and acknowledge my own faults and my own self, am I that much different than her?

[restoredsight]

I've been thinking and reading a lot and I thought I'd share what I understand to be true about these situations.

The emotions that a pwBPD feels aren't like what we experience. We assume that they feel like we do. They don't. This is important to remember. The closest some of us come is likely to when some of us are discarded. That pain of being abandoned, it's something that is intense and powerful, and it leads us to some dark actions. We don't respect boundaries any more. We spy. We stalk, even if it's electronic stalking. There's that element of "how can I live without them." Now, imagine swinging to that sort of emotion several times a day every day of your life. Maybe dozens of times, maybe more. Equally, then there's the swing towards engulfment, which is just as frightening as it's basically a fear of us stamping out their free will. The "relief" from these swings are disassociate episodes, where all sorts of unpleasant sensations and thoughts can occur.

When an infant is dealing with their mother, it's a life or death struggle. They have to attach in some way because mother is life. Since pwBPD are stuck in this mode,  they attach to us in this desperate way.

Think about this. They are doing everything as if it were life or death, that's what their limbic system is telling them is going on. They will die if they are alone. They will die if they get too close. They will die if they are abandoned.

When they "hook" us, they are reaching out for us like a baby needs food. They do anything they can, they give us their bodies, they give us their thoughts, they give us everything they have so they can be safe.

When they look at us with that idealization, it's like we are being worshiped, like some mad god that could strike them down if they don't please us enough. Adoration and sacrifice is what they give us. They believe that this time, this is it, this is the one. 

When they cling, when push and pull is going on, the fear is everywhere. We will destroy their individuality, which is death. We will leave them, which is death. Then at some point, this fear gets to be too much, and so they have to try again. They need someone else to be safe again. If they don't they die.

It's sincere. It's not a con. They don't win anything. They are trying not to die.

And yes, we need to look at ourselves. We either loved the worship too much, or we wanted to save them too much, or we suffered through things hoping it will all change if we gave enough love, or we were lonely and introverted, or any number of other reasons. There's a reason we felt like a key in a lock, and it's not a good reason.

Otherwise, we would be that person who saw something odd and just left it alone.

[Lamaiel]

That's a fantastic post... . thanks chad_sketch.

[Mutt]

I've been thinking and reading a lot and I thought I'd share what I understand to be true about these situations.

The emotions that a pwBPD feels aren't like what we experience. We assume that they feel like we do. They don't. This is important to remember. The closest some of us come is likely to when some of us are discarded. That pain of being abandoned, it's something that is intense and powerful, and it leads us to some dark actions. We don't respect boundaries any more. We spy. We stalk, even if it's electronic stalking. There's that element of "how can I live without them." Now, imagine swinging to that sort of emotion several times a day every day of your life. Maybe dozens of times, maybe more. Equally, then there's the swing towards engulfment, which is just as frightening as it's basically a fear of us stamping out their free will.The "relief" from these swings are disassociate episodes, where all sorts of unpleasant sensations and thoughts can occur.

Empathy.  

If you had a choice of feeling this way, do you think that you would choose it? Would you ask for this disorder?

It's sincere. It's not a con.

Precisely.

And yes, we need to look at ourselves. We either loved the worship too much, or we wanted to save them too much, or we suffered through things hoping it will all change if we gave enough love, or we were lonely and introverted, or any number of other reasons. There's a reason we felt like a key in a lock, and it's not a good reason.

Otherwise, we would be that person who saw something odd and just left it alone.

[HappyNihilist]

I've been thinking and reading a lot and I thought I'd share what I understand to be true about these situations.

The emotions that a pwBPD feels aren't like what we experience. We assume that they feel like we do. They don't. This is important to remember. The closest some of us come is likely to when some of us are discarded. That pain of being abandoned, it's something that is intense and powerful, and it leads us to some dark actions. We don't respect boundaries any more. We spy. We stalk, even if it's electronic stalking. There's that element of "how can I live without them." Now, imagine swinging to that sort of emotion several times a day every day of your life. Maybe dozens of times, maybe more. Equally, then there's the swing towards engulfment, which is just as frightening as it's basically a fear of us stamping out their free will. The "relief" from these swings are disassociate episodes, where all sorts of unpleasant sensations and thoughts can occur.

When an infant is dealing with their mother, it's a life or death struggle. They have to attach in some way because mother is life. Since pwBPD are stuck in this mode,  they attach to us in this desperate way.

Think about this. They are doing everything as if it were life or death, that's what their limbic system is telling them is going on. They will die if they are alone. They will die if they get too close. They will die if they are abandoned.

When they "hook" us, they are reaching out for us like a baby needs food. They do anything they can, they give us their bodies, they give us their thoughts, they give us everything they have so they can be safe.

When they look at us with that idealization, it's like we are being worshiped, like some mad god that could strike them down if they don't please us enough. Adoration and sacrifice is what they give us. They believe that this time, this is it, this is the one. 

When they cling, when push and pull is going on, the fear is everywhere. We will destroy their individuality, which is death. We will leave them, which is death. Then at some point, this fear gets to be too much, and so they have to try again. They need someone else to be safe again. If they don't they die.

It's sincere. It's not a con. They don't win anything. They are trying not to die.

And yes, we need to look at ourselves. We either loved the worship too much, or we wanted to save them too much, or we suffered through things hoping it will all change if we gave enough love, or we were lonely and introverted, or any number of other reasons. There's a reason we felt like a key in a lock, and it's not a good reason.

Otherwise, we would be that person who saw something odd and just left it alone.

This is a beautifully written, heart-rending description. Thank you for this. I ache for my exbf and his emotional pain, his rollercoaster brain, and the desperately deep, all-pervading need that I would glimpse. And I will never believe that he wasn't sincere with his love, in his way. I can't imagine what it must feel like to be him, and I truly hope he can find peace and happiness one day.

I never wanted to change him and didn't think he needed saving -- only understanding and acceptance. I hated any sign of idealization, because I'm a realist at heart, and told him I never would be able to live up to an ideal. (I suppose he was very good at adapting to what would get me to let my guard down, because he toned down the idealization early on.) I was lonely emotionally (and pretty unsatisfied sexually), but I knew him as a friend and a coworker before we entered a r/s -- I've always genuinely liked and respected him as a person. This may be part of the reason I ignored some early red flags, because he's high functioning, not to mention a caring, good, and loyal friend and peer. Then I fell in love with him, demons and all. But I didn't realize that he could never truly accept that I did love him, demons and all -- that he would always have that fear and doubt, which I seemed to trigger more often in the final 6-7 months, despite what I did. I begged him (felt like screaming it sometimes!), "Please just let me love you." I stubbornly and stupidly thought that my consistency and devotion would ease his fears. I didn't realize how much he hated himself.

I believe he let me go before the mask was fully off, before I saw the depths of his self-loathing and shame. Perhaps then I would have seen that there was no way he could ever believe that I or anyone could love him, when he can only hate himself. Or perhaps I would have been so enmeshed in him that I wouldn't have cared.

[HappyNihilist]

I begged him (felt like screaming it sometimes!), "Please just let me love you." I stubbornly and stupidly thought that my consistency and devotion would ease his fears. I didn't realize how much he hated himself.

I also didn't realize, or truly appreciate, the depth of his fears. The psychic wounds on his soul. I feel terrible that I couldn't give him what he needed. But I also realize that -- while I certainly could have done many things better in the r/s -- this is really nothing to do with me. It is, sadly, his battle. I was more than willing to fight it with him, but I certainly could never do it for him.

[day2day]

Chad Sketch and Happy Nihilist, two incredible posts.

Both of them are the ultimate in empathy. Anyone who bears the scars of a r/s with a pwBPD and can still be this balanced in their POV is a remarkable person indeed.

There are hundreds of times in the last year when I prayed that I could just paint my BPDexgf black and be done with it forever, thinking that arriving at a vantage point of pure hatred and contempt would be the closest thing to closure I could get. But I could never do it. Despite the lies, the cheating, the disparaging remarks... . the overall frustrating and crazy-making behavior... . and the abrupt, non-negotiable final act of dumping, I could never bring myself to hate. I hate the condition, but not the person. Huge difference. Chad Sketch and Happy Nihilist, your posts so articulately and... . yes, I think lovingly... . explain why.

[Samsara121]

Isn't this the mutual dream, the fantasy that both often end up sincerely believing and sharing.  The BPD person may have started it, but eventually everyone bought into it ad desperately wanted it.  It is extremely intoxicating to both parties.

Those words hit home for me, thank you Skip.

That's exactly how I feel now, I cry sometimes over the dream, the cute image of us too going on vacation, for adventures. I have this sort of dream "model" in my head, but yet it's my FOO the real- influential model. I hardly know what a healthy intimate relationship is and it's hard to admit. I didn't know what can be acceptable or not, love was always entangled with pain, suffering, tears and silence. I will perhaps sound stupid but I never thought a r/s could be a place without deep pain. I know I feel more secure with someone "in need" than with someone all confident.

I know those "hooks" were sincere but yet some sort of showing off, impossible to sustain on the long run. We wanted to show our best side, were in constant battle with our specific demons and sometime communicating about it. It's not only painful to witness or be in the middle of that, it's exhausting. It feels like being eaten up by a black hole.

It's time to heal and re-evaluate what I wish from a r/s. This r/s helped me so much to go to the next level with my self awareness.

[HappyNihilist]

Chad Sketch and Happy Nihilist, two incredible posts.

Both of them are the ultimate in empathy. Anyone who bears the scars of a r/s with a pwBPD and can still be this balanced in their POV is a remarkable person indeed.

*blushing* Thank you so much, day2day.

For me, it helps that I have a lot of empathy and a good sense of self and identity to begin with. But I've also done years of work in crisis intervention and mental health work, which not only helped my empathy skills but also helped me learn how to examine myself, build boundaries, develop coping skills, and learn how to detach. I'm very grateful for those lessons and tools now! It's still hard as absolute hell, but at least I have some sort of foundation to stand on.

There are hundreds of times in the last year when I prayed that I could just paint my BPDexgf black and be done with it forever, thinking that arriving at a vantage point of pure hatred and contempt would be the closest thing to closure I could get. But I could never do it. Despite the lies, the cheating, the disparaging remarks... . the overall frustrating and crazy-making behavior... . and the abrupt, non-negotiable final act of dumping, I could never bring myself to hate. I hate the condition, but not the person. Huge difference. Chad Sketch and Happy Nihilist, your posts so articulately and... . yes, I think lovingly... . explain why.

So many times I've wished I could hate my exbf. At the end, he even told me I had "every right" to hate him. I told him then that I didn't. And even during times when I've yelled out "F#CK YOU" over and over into an empty room to vent my own rage post-breakup, I've never hated him. I feel sometimes like it would be so much easier if I could.

But I loved him deeply, and part of me always will. And in the end I think it's healthier to just accept that love -- to just let those feelings be, while understanding that it doesn't mean I should sacrifice myself or my happiness for them. And to really process and take to heart the knowledge that it takes far more than just love to build a healthy r/s.

You hit the nail on the head: "I hate the condition, but not the person." Your empathy and understanding, despite the torture she put you through, is very commendable and shows a lot of strength.